Gerald: The Laziest Celtic

I’m sure you were saying the same thing about Al last year. You’re wrong, plain and simple.

I respectfully disagree.

jeff why do you allow your peeps to write crap like this? the negativity on this site is appalling and you should do more to foster a more positive environment. im not saying we need to all be homers, just realistic. whatever man keeep hating.

Ok, this very young player, who probably hasn’t played meaningful minutes in 100 basketball games his whole life, who as a starter this month is at about 18 points and 8 rebounds, looked sluggish in the fourth game of a West Coast swing.

It’s going to take at least two more seasons before GG finds himself totally in the league. I don’t see him as a loafer, or “The Laziest Celtic.” I see him as a young phenom with a world of talent and a dearth of experience, who is a little overwhemled in one way or another every night.

It’s insulting to say this kid is “lazy.” You think he makes almost half his three pointers and he hasn’t work like a dog to have that ability? If you have any evidence of GG’s “laziness” in practice or workouts, please feel free to share them with us. If you think Green’s bad moments recently were because he’s “lazy,” you’re way off base.

Green17,

Couldn’t agree… less. You are talking about a lack of hustle, and then site technique problems. Running out at a guy without dribble, versus playing the man without the ball (or trying to get in the passing lane) is all about knowing the right place to go. Since team wise most of our players make these kinds of mistakes, it’s hard for me to say it’s just Gerald. [Our transition defense stinks, and not due to a lack of hustle.]

The first example was ten times worse – that is purely technique. The problem, most likely, is due to the fact that GG was an amazing defender in HS without doing anything technically sound. If you blow by him, he probably closed and sent your shot. Telfair, West, and Wally all have the same issue defensively.

If you watch the games Gerald is taking three point shots because he is open. If anything he is passing up on too many open three pointers. He has to force the other team’s wing to stay on him all the time. That will make double teams of AJ underneath hard, and open up driblle drives and backdoor cuts. Also watch him get after rebounds. In the POR game he saved two or three long rebounds as they were going out of bounds, including athletic moves to avoid the out of bounds line and POR player rushing for the ball. He also ended the third quarter with a nifty hustle play to get on offensive rebound and quickly put it back up for two points. Then he came right back out and had about 5 tips to put a missed shot in the hoop to start the fourth quarter. He was also fighting over the top of screens like a mad man (he and Scal actually demonstrated the best pick and roll defense I’ve seen from the C’s all year on one possesion early in the fourth quarter.)

I just don’t see a guy going from lazy to full of effort on the second night of back to back games. If you wanted to say he doesn’t get it, or that he won’t get it, you’d have a much stronger set opf supporting evidence. I think he’ll eventually get it, but Joe Johnson is the exception, Kedrick Brown and Ron Merce are the rule.

“I’m sure you guys will say I’m nuts…” You’re nuts, but I’ll be watching the next home game and isolate on G$, and get back to you…

Green’s man on perimeter defense is pretty darn terrible, whether because of lack of hustle the lunar cycle..whatever..its bad. I’ve been wondering though why he can’t finish strong around the hoop? Is he NOT strong enough or is it a confidence thing? He is jacking up three’s but he should be so much more complete and I agree about Green17’s opinion regarding minutes…I just feel like if had earned the minutes in practice he would be playing them…of course, thats conjecture and rhetoric…My point is, he doesnt seem to play with a lot of backbone in the games I am honored enough to watch, and I just feel like thats as much a pre-requisite of a great player as any silky smooth jump shot or 90’ verticle. Big Al pounds the boards, follows his shot and really tries on defense. You can SEE that in games…you can hear it on the radio. DO I think Al Jefferson can be a better player than he is now? YES. But do I also think every minute big Al is out there he is hustling? YES. And I think thats the difference with Gerald Green…he waits for the game ot come ot him, he doesnt go get the game.

Is Gerald’s three point shooting more a result of this own style of play or Doc’s game plan???? I’m just happy Gerald is getting the ball and PT in the first place. Last night’s game, i saw him fight through screens consistenly to get to his man

The problem isn’t lack of hustle. It’s fear of making mistakes.
Gerald has played with the most “hustle” in unstructured settings: offensive rebounding, transition O and D, and on offense during frenzied end-of-the-game comeback attempts. He hasn’t “hustled” in set offenses and defenses — in my opinion, either because he doesn’t know what he’s supposed to do or because he’s paralyzed by fear of making a mistake (due to Doc’s quick trigger in taking him out?).

I wonder when Doc will give G$ the freedom he gives others (TA, Wally, Delonte, Gomes) to make some mistakes and not have to worry about gettin benched for the next 20 minutes. It would really help him i think because he does look like he’s wicked afraid to make a mistake and look what happened with TA, he shaped up.

as for him not hustling? please. You obviously dont know what you are talking about and are just looking for something to complain about. Heres a couple of much more valid complaint topics: anything Doc Rivers, Wally is the worst player in the NBA, Delonte is awful, Al Jefferson doesnt get the ball enough, Gomes has fallen back to mediocre at best, Telfair has been worthless and shows little room for improvement, Scalabrine is on our team, Perkins is a bust and we would be lucky to trade him for a lump of crap, the list goes on…

I agree with what a few others have already said, GG looks scared to make a mistake. That falls to the coaching staff.

actually by pointing out other much more relevant reasons that the Celtics are bad, i was the expressing the ridiculousness of your argument.

and by purposely misspelling my name in the same message you talk about celticsblog ettiquete you just further ruin your credibility.

BigAlBeezy,

I like your points, more specifically, the other topics you raise. But for Gomes, I wonder if he’s battling an injury. I think A) His calf isn’t fully healed and isn’t physically able to battle for rebounds, which is important for a guy his size who plays near the hoop and B) He’s changed his game since last year to become more of a spot up midrange jumpshooter. I’d like to see him get back to being the player he was last year, or rather, the type of player that Leon Powe is this year. A hustler under the basket.

Well I don’t totally disagree with you like most people. Gerald does make some seriously lazy entry passes to the post (drives me nuts) and on defense he doesn’t have his hands up when the ball is moving around. He stands around a lot with his hands by his side on defense.

However, like Brendan pointed out, most of his errors are in technique. I’m sure Doc gets irritated by Gerald, but Doc is probably more to blame than anyone. 1) Doc does not run plays for G$ and gets mad when he doesn’t set up for the open outside 3. 2) Defensively G$ improved, but Doc’s short fuse on defensive rotation doesn’t seem to be helping. 3) B/c of Doc’s short fuse on offense, Gerald has become hesitant to shoot at times.

Comparing Gerald calling for the ball for a 3 reminiscent of ‘Toine, it may appear that way at first but consider a few things: He shoots 48% from there (’toine was like 33), He’s not a post player so he has the right to be out there, and I don’t think Doc has come up with a “hey Gerald, when Al has the ball in the post then slash to the hoop weakside” type play.

All in all, you expressed your opinion, and I can see why you get frustrated with him.. I do a bit at times as well. However, I’m more irritated with the coaching staff for not utilizing him well enough, and for having a short in-game fuse.

Let me get this straight – you are accusing a 20 year old kid, who is a year and a half out of high school, who has developed into one of the league’s top three point threats and has vastly improved his own defense of being lazy? You are displeased that a guy that is hitting .471 from teh arc is shooting three pointers? You are complaining that a guy who DOES NOT have plays called for him, yet who scores like Gerald does (18 point is 22 minutes), isn’t doing a better job scoring? I just wanted to be clear about that.

You do realize that Tony Allen 1. is FOUR years older than Gerald, and so is more physically developed than he is, and 2. that Tony attacks from the three point line so often because he is shooting 24% on his threes, which is about HALF Gerald’s percentage? Did it ever occur to you that Doc WANTS Gerald to stand on the three point line? It seems pretty clear to me that he does, as he doesn’t call plays for the kid. Gerald is the perfect candidate to come off of screens four or five times a game for midrange jumpers, but that doesn’t happen. Gerald also seems to get called for a lot of travels when he tries to take people off the dribble, which is something I’m sure they are working with him on.

Wirh regards to his defense, it is common knowledge that learning to play it on the NBA level is difficult for players with multiple years of college experience and Gerald is a year and a half out of high school. Considering where he was at the beginning of last season I think that he has progressed by leaps and bounds. He didn’t know ANYTHING when he came to the league, and it showed. Now he does a generally decent job, and is certainly better than Wally even with the mistakes.

This kid is just figuring out where his shots are, is still physically developing, and is learning how to play D on the fly and you are dumping on him because of your own idea of where he should be. LeBron is the only kid that came straight out of high school with a legit NBA game, and he still gets dumped on for his defense, and you are ragging on Gerald? Here’s to hoping that your next blog is based on more than one game and your own flawed ideas concerning where Gerald “should be.”

Green 17, nothing wrong with your article. You called a spade a spade. The truth must be faced, however hurting. Im with you on this one, buddy.

green17 makes valid points on G$…giving 2 specific examples of poor defense/lack of effort etc.

obviously he has a keener eye to the finer points of NBA basketball when it comes to offering an objective opinion…

too many here see shamrock logo and spectacular dunks and think the kid is great. he might be some day, but he isnt even close right now.

here’s a question: if you were 6’8 w/ a 40" vertical how many rebounds or steals do you think you would get in 20mpg?

defense & rebounding is ALL effort/desire. and my translation of green17’s points is: G$ does not play w/ enough effort/desire. (and i’ll bet doc shares the same opinion).

green17 makes valid points on G$…giving 2 specific examples of poor defense/lack of effort etc.

obviously he has a keener eye to the finer points of NBA basketball when it comes to offering an objective opinion…

too many here see shamrock logo and spectacular dunks and think the kid is great. he might be some day, but he isn’t even close right now.

here’s a question: if you were 6’8 w/ a 40" vertical how many rebounds or steals do you think you would get in 20mpg? [/i]

Gerald averages 7.3 rebounds per 48 and 1.3 steals per 48. Let’s go through the other players who play the 2/3 slots for us. Delonte averages 4.8 rebounds per 48,Wally averages 5.7, Tony averages 7.8, and Paul averages 9.2. As for steals per 48, Wally averages 1.0, Paul averages 1.1, Delonte averages 1.3, and Tony averages 2.4. So Gerald is our third best rebounding wing and is tied for second best at stealing the ball, per 48.

Really? It is “ALL effort and desire”, huh? While effort and desire play a major part, especially for veterans, knowledge of the game and physical ability/maturity and talent plays a big part too. Nash, while being a great player and two time MVP, is neither a great, or even good, rebounder or defender. Is Steve lacking in effort and desire? Do you see how easy it is to dispose of a ill thought out argument?

Is Delonte a loafer on defense averaging the same number of steals per minute as Gerald? How about Paul and Wally averaging fewer? Do Wally and Delonte not fight for rebounds? Some it has to do with physical ability, some has to do with experience. In Gerald’s case, a lot has to do with how he is used. Gerald is often out on the perimeter challenging shots when he is in there, or providing weak side support in challenging shots, which takes him out of the rebounding action. He is, after all, fourth on the team in blocks per 48 (of the players with significant playing time), and all the others are big men. Do BLOCKS count as defense, or are you just going to focus on a stat which you think helps your case? As Gerald builds his frame, and learns the game better, he will be a better rebounder, but his stats per minute are just fine for a swing man, especially for one so young.

Personally I think that steals and blocks are not the end all be all of defense. Bowen doesn’t get too many and he’s a perennial All-Defense guy. Rodman didn’t either and he was one of the best defensive PF’s of the last 25 years. Still, Gerald has room to improve an he will.

lefty12,

Except that I refuted his examples and provided my own counter examples. The problem is for every player in the league there are a handfull of “lazy” plays and a handfull of “hustle plays” easily found. Part of being a good NBA player is to know when to go all out and when to conserve some strength. But really the problem is that Green17’s article was based way too much on his subjective opinion backed up with a handfull of anecdotal evidence. Instead we should look to see if this can be backed up: MikeDfromNP (fastly becoming my favorite poster) just ruins the argument by showing rebound rates, steal rates, block rates, show Green is hustling.

If you watch the recent games Green is doing a better job “hustling” on the pick and rolls and around permiter screens than West and Wally. (Only Allen is better at it) and just as good as West and Wally at staying in front of his man.

Its easy to love the underdog (i.e. West) or hate on the guy with potential (i.e. Green) – but by any objective measure Green has improved his game from 2005/6 to 2006/7 much more than West has. So maybe West is the laziest Celtic?

west has been injured most of the season…but if think dwest doesnt hustle, you simply havent watched a game. or do you agree w/ the guy who said dwest deserved to get hurt on the hustle play chasing boykins in denver game?

as far as G$ goes…per 48 stats are useless when determining effort/desire hustle. if you watch the games and honestly believe G$ is playing hard on defense and hustling than you have set the bar pretty low.

Almost two years have passed since i began thinking guys like HRB were Knick fans or trollers in disguise. It is unfortunate that the writings of Green17 are still offensive to Celtic fans as we all view the team crumbling before our eyes over the past two seasons. Our talented youth have leveled off with the one exception of Big Al and have become no different than the Atlanta Hawks or the Knicks themselves of being cellar dwellers with a few good young players to keep our spirits high. The string has to be running out on Ainge in the minds of the Celtics owners.

This may be the worst article ever written for Celtics Blog. It’s well written, but it’s just wrong. Oooh, Ray Allen blew by Gerald Green? How many players has this 6 time All-Star blown by while scoring over 16,000 career points? So one 20 year old kid couldn’t stop him. Stop the presses! He must be lazy!

Then we criticize him for not leaving his man underneath the basket to go to the baseline 10 feet away? Maybe he’s not a defensive stopper, but outside of Tony Allen, who on the Celtics is? That’s a team problem and it stems from the coaching staff.

Finally, you criticize the guy for hoisting up 3 pointers, even though he’s open and (statistically) one of the best sharpshooters in the league? He’s kicking ASS from 3 point land (7th right now in the NBA) and opening the floor and you want him to stop?

Very rarely has any article been so wrong on Celtics Blog.

This piece is garbage, anyone who agrees with Doc in any way is always incorrect. Simple, isnt it?

G$ really looked lazy out their tonight loafing around letting scrubs like this Lebron James kid off the hook