5 Topics I'm Sick Of

Very realistic statement. Think about this. Forget the coaches, injuries and illness. Subract 5 mistakes the C’s make in a game. Subtract 1 or 2 long rebounds, lucky shots, lucky bounces for the opponent. Subtract 1 or 2 bad calls or non-calls that go against us. This could have given us 12 to 15 more wins. We’re not that far away. Stick with the plan (good drafting and roster tweaking if it gives us a good-value player).

Wheww, Jeff, I was worried for a second that you were going to put “5. Rajon Rondo” on the list. That would cut my total number of posts in half ;)

it would be nice to talk about this foreign concept to the Celtics …
winning

Celtics,who? Go Patriots!!!!!!!

“This Is The Season of the Which,” as in which player is next to go down with an injury might be a suitable alternative to MASH headlines. Those that think the C’s have been snakebit should consider the plight of the Milwaukee Bucks, who are missing four starters, or the NO/OK Hornets, down their three best players.

Ainge can (and should) do more than just sit idly by as other teams gear up for the stretch drive. For example, he could tell Paul Pierce to keep that boot on as long as someone is watching in the same way as someone that’s been in an automobile accident wears a protective collar when the insurance investigator comes by.

The draft is what teams with zero chance look forward to at this time of year, and the 2007 version has several players besides Greg Oden that could make the C’s a whole lot better in the future. How do you think the Hawks’ fans feel with Phoenix owning their #1 in the next draft?

Biggest scapegoat on the team since Blount is a toss-up between Doc and Scal. I can deal with it much better if they both are sent packing after the season.

I want nothing but moral victories from here on out. I’ll take my chances with a 12-70 record and lots of ping-pong balls.

Jeff, I don’t agree with you on this statement “The coach can only do so much, good or bad, to make a team win or lose.”

It’s the coaches job to develop the team and the players. I think that is where all of Doc’s bashers are attacking, at least I am.

I thought you were going to say “Youth.” I’m glad you didn’t because, like it or not, it is the single biggest issue with this team and we shouldn’t stop recognizing it. People look at what GG or TA or even Rondo can do on a given night and say, “See, they have the talent and the knowledge. All they need is playing time, which they aren’t getting because the coach is an idiot. Fire Doc!” But what people don’t realize is that their youth does not primarily show itself in lack of talent, skill, or even knowledge. Youth shows itself in inconsistency. The difference between GG and PP is not talent. I think on Gerald’s best day he can look like Paul, or even better because of his superior athleticism. What separates GG from Paul is that Paul can do it night after night after night, regardless of the competition. The great ones like Magic, Bird, Jordan, and LeBron achieve consistency right away. Most players have curve. And with highschool guys, you have to imagine that curve will be twice as long. Youth is THE biggest factor in this teams losing, but also in its promise for resurrection. We should not stop talking about it.

Topic I’m sick of, on top of those other 5:
“You know what we need? A veteran point guard who can come in and put up 12 points and 6 assists.”
Or, “you know what we need? A veteran big man that can be a 15 and 8 guy every night.”

Stupidest things any Celtics fan could possibly wish for right now and I’ve read it plenty of times on this site recently.

“It’s the coaches job to develop the team and the players. I think that is where all of Doc’s bashers are attacking, at least I am.”

Very true, and that’s the last thing you can say Doc has done wrong. He has developed nice players out of almost everything that Danny has given him. We have had low first round draft picks for years and Doc has made them into legit NBA players. Delonte, Tony Allen, Gomes, Jefferson, Green, Rondo, none of those guys went before… what?… Jefferson at 14? Seems to me Doc deserves a lot of that credit, so don’t blame him for that.

Ditto, pretty much. Teams with the same amount of talent find a way to win on any given night. The Celts seem happy with moral victories and close play. That’s got to be eating Ainge up inside. Even though he traded for or drafted every player on this team besides Pierce, he had to expect more out of these players, injuries nonwithstanding…

And on the other hand… Hey look! Rondo tops the Rookie Rankings this week! ;D

Come on Po, lighten up. See you Friday.

Ok, I’ll agree that those are the top 5 and it’s safe to assume you’re sick of them.

But what 5 topics do you recommend we focus on then?

I’m sick of the Celtics period. Oh, it’s not the losing, it’s the bad basketball. To discuss the specifics of why it is so bad, I’d have to broach several of Jeff’s forbidden topics.

There’s really only 1 topic that I’m sick of, and that’s pessimism. Things ARE bad, and they ARE getting worse, but that’s a temporarary condition.

Things aren’t all that bad. The young players are a lot of fun to watch. Wins will improve as soon as Paul, Wally and Delonte return. This team is built for the future, and Trader Danny seems acutely aware of that.

Do you think Danny will trade Wally and others to clean up the roster before the start of next season? Do you think he’ll fire Doc at the end of this season? Those are my biggest fears.

watched durant last night vs. ok. state. great shooter, fearless,will be a big time scorer. they are not asking him to play a lot of defense and he can be pushed around under the basket. he will need skills development for the pros and some bulking (not much).heis a winner.

Good points Jeff. If we were not sick and tired of losing, nobody would be hammering these 5 points. I admit to bashing Doc to death. IMHO he is not a head coach. There are young players on this roster who will have successful NBA careers but not all on the Celtics. Everybody agress that we have alot of young talent, and if Danny could just bring in some proven veteran players … wait a minute. He tried that with Payton, and Wally….

Quick! Someone pass Master Po a asprin, I’m out!

Jeff Loved it! This place was becoming Bizzaro world! What I get sick of is the same posters posting those same things EVERYDAY, do they not think we get where their coming from! That horse was beat so bad, I’m sure PETA was calling….LOL

What we need?

Box of Kleenex!

Well I guess this puts the kibosh on the " With Doc and the injuries we don’t need to tank, a moral victory in itself" thread that I spent two weeks working on. Thanks a lot Jeff.

On the 5 points:

1) Injuries- all I ask is don’t rush anyone back that isn’t healthy enough to be productive and not reinjure- I ask nothing else.

2) Tank- don’t tank, but don’t throw Wally (35 min.) and Pierce (40 min.) out there for so long just to try to scrape a W. This is the time to develop the youth.

3)Draft- I too will cool my jets until we get to March madness.

4) Doc- Sorry to disagree, but this is the opportunity to go out and get a wise fundamentally sound coach (intrim or not) who can get more production out of the youth for next year. Does anybody seriously think this guy would still be coach if he wasn’t making $5M? I still am in favor of an All Star coaching change. The fact this very well may not happen is out of our control. So that’s the way I deal with it. Agree it is what it is but that doesn’t mean I’m going to do cartwheels in accepting it.

5) Moral victories, just win a game here and there- Look, even the 62’ mets won 25% of their games and they are considered by many to be the worst or one of the worst team’s ever in professional organized sports. We will win 30% of our games as a minimum by season ends, even if we are all injured. Just be grateful we aren’t the 62’ Mets. Winning 30% of our games is what we are- deal with it.

The loss of Tony Allen has been the final nail in the coffin for me. He was developing so well, and then to see him come crashing down in one play like that, it ripped my heart out. I went from routing for wins to routing for losses the next day. I can’t imagine anyone in their heart of hearts wants us to sneak into the play-offs this year. I will pay more attention to the bottom of the standings because that is where our hope lies for this year.

What this season is I hope is the bottom…………. that this team has come full circle and has been able to really look in the mirror and look at who players and fans really are….

Before the season all the experts had the Celtics at the bottom and all us Kool-Aid drinkers thought otherwise.

What this season has brought us is a glimpse of hope for the future with players like Jefferson & Green playing alongside Pierce and starting a foundation.

This off season will be the biggest off season for the Celtics in the last 20 years. Not only because of the draft, and possible trades, but how does Danny fit the pieces to this puzzle.

Who stays who goes, is Delonte a part of this group, was Gomes an aberration last season, will Jefferson and Green get better, and how does Paul deal with all this confusion in direction from this organization.

I must admit even though we are losing, I’m more excited about our future with our young group than any other point the last 20 years. Danny has a plan, where Pitno and others didn’t.

Next season, this team has to make the playoffs and has to show us something as far as growth and development.

This is it, there no more turning back after next season. I don’t want to go there if they fail

Ancient Red, I agree. It will be a monumental offseason that if some basic moves are made then we MUST make the playoffs next year. Otherwise I rescind my support of Danny Ainge.

Trade doc is reasonable as well as looking the other players team. Watching the players develop despite the score would also be useful. ;)

Well, Idon’t know what to say. Jeff you are right on a win every now and then would recharge my batteries. lets talk about how to get more first round picks by tradeing wally west gomes and ratliff to teams who need these guys to play and to cut Luxuary tax payments. The clippers could use wally and the warriors might take ratliff for a long term bad contract. both might give up a first round pick to get it done.

I want the Celtics to have a great team again. I don’t want them to just be competetive. I want to be the Celtics again, not the 1990s Cavs. Frankly, outside of KG, I don’t see any player who could even in my wildest dreams be available who will make that happen. I am sorry but Jermain O’Neil and Pau Gasol are not going to make the Celtics great. I am as skeptical of the draft as anyone. Last year, I thought the whole bunch of them were stiffs and wouldn’t have cared if Danny had given away the number 7 pick for the Ice Capades. As it was, getting rid of Raf’s contract in exchange for one that was a year shorter was worth it in my opinion. But this year is different. This year’s draft is going to be the best in years. It is going to be a 1984 (Olajuwan, Jordan, Mullin) kind of draft. I can’t see how any fan could have watched Durant’s 36 point performance last night and not be willing to drop a brick on Paul Pierce’s foot to get him on the Celtics. The only way to get him there is to loose. Great players only come through the draft once every few years. This year, there are at least two of them and maybe more if Julian Wright comes out (sorry Master Po, but when someone explains to him just how much the number three pick in the draft actually makes no amount of Rock Chalk Jayhawk is going to keep him on campus) there could be three. The only realistic way I see for the Celtics to become relevant again is loose and loose consistantly and hope for the lottery. Sad but true.

I am with you Jeff…..I am sick of “moral victories”

I watched Durant also and was not particularly impressed. Too skinny, reminded me of more of Travis Outlaw than of Kevin Garnett. I’d rather have Joakim Noah or Tiago Splitter.

I agree with Tom H and Ancient Red, this offseason will make or break this franchise for the next 5 years. Ainge needs to step up his game bigtime. He has shown me very little in the past in terms of finding players who mesh with our roster. All of his trades seem to make us a little worse.

There is little doubt in my mind that if Ainge is around next season, we will have another 30 something win season. I have absolutely no confidence in his ability to add the right players around Pierce and Jefferson to take us to the next level.

What we need to do is ax Ainge now, so we can get a real GM in before this monumental offseason and get some real direction behind this team before its too late. Firing Ainge after he hoses us (again) this offseason only puts back to square one.

 We do have the right to express an opinion on Doc. I am just trying to make sure he is not here next year. A coach can get players to play together in a system. Doc has been unable to do that and develop our young talent. An example at the begining of this year! Where was Al? Second team Perk starting! Why? He thought Perk was the better player! Not close and I do not buy the argument that he had not earned the minutes. Example Rondo!
1) Doc makes bad late game decisions he did it the year we went to ECF ( with Veterans)
2) Doc will not develop the young guys they sit except for maybe a few minutes or get a DNP
3) He is not an X & O’s coach
4) Bad talent evaluator
 I could go on but you get my point. This is not for this year this is to make sure for NEXT YEAR!!!!

“I watched Durant also and was not particularly impressed. Too skinny, reminded me of more of Travis Outlaw than of Kevin Garnett. I’d rather have Joakim Noah or Tiago Splitter.”

Birkowski you are the “Mikey” of this board; you truly hate everything. Too skinny? What do you think he won’t add bulk as he gets older? The kid is 6 foot 9, can drain the three, handle the ball as well nearly any point guard in college basketball and can actually play with his back to the basket. The guy is averaging 33 points and 12 rebounds a game, against top competetition. Melo never did that, neither did Wade. Noah couldn’t hold Durant under 30. Yeah too skinny, you can gain weight and strength, you can’t gain the ability to play basketball. I have a whole list of big white and big black stiffs that were drafted high because scouts “loved their bodies”. I will take skinny with a game anyday.

“reminded me of more of Travis Outlaw”?

In bizarro world maybe.

Except for last night, Durant put up those numbers against the dregs of the Big 12, and against OK State it took him 3 overtimes. Let’s see how he does against good teams.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player. But he has been overhyped. Gerald Green is alot closer to becoming the next TMac than Durant is to becoming the next KG.

To repeat myself: I’d rather have Noah or Splitter, both of whom are NBA caliber defenders with NBA bodies. Durant may become that type of player, but right now he’s far, far away.

Amen, JohnK.

Brickowski, are you crazy? Noah doesn’t have half the ball handling or outside shooting ability of Durant. He’s going to be Marcus Camby at best. Durant has a chance to be Garnett. Do you recall how rail-thin Garnett looked at 18? Durant will fill out, and his inside outside game will flourish in today’s NBA in which multi-skilled power forwards are dominating the league.

I never saw Garnett at 18 because he was nearly 20 when he came into the league.

Durant might be the next Garnett, but he might also be the next Travis Outlaw. The Durant I saw last night was not worth the #2 pick in this year’s deep draft. I’m sure I’ll watch him again so maybe my view will change.

plain and simple: i am not a fan of noah

Injuries!…everybody’s got ‘em. Let’s shut up and play. Doc has done an amazing job keeping all his players’ attitudes positive but c’mon guys…play D, stop the TO’s and win one. Enough excuses. No tanking unless you think playing Powe instead of Perk is tanking. Tank all day then. If it’s tanking to put Delonte at the 2 and force feed minutes to Telfair and Rondo at PG, go ahead and tank. Let’s see who’s a keeper and who isn’t. These guys must show by the end of year that they can win close games, force more TO’s than they make, and RUN. Doc must show that he can do more than cheerlead. Danny’s done his job in my opinion – the talent is there (maybe Perk is a bust, sorry to say). I still feel the Telfair trade was good and would have been great if Ratliff could’ve contributed. I love the C’s but this constant rationalizing for losing has ggone on so many years. Very frustrating!

“The Durant I saw last night was not worth the #2 pick in this year’s deep draft.”

He went for 37 and 12 against a top 15 team in one of the toughest arenas in the country to play in. He also did that against Marcus Dove. Dove is one best defenders in college basketball. Last year against Gonzaga, Dove drove Adam Morrison crazy. Morrison had to hit a miracle heave to win the game but outside of his last shot had his worst game of the year. Durant, as an 18 year old freshman mauled Dove. Durant carried the entire Texas team for long stretches of the game. He was awesome. Did you see his moves with the ball? There are forwards in the NBA who can’t handle the ball that well. The kid does everything. You must have watched a different game.

Agree with you on 4 out of 5, but I’ll never let go of the Doc issue. Rick Adelman is still out there. There are a couple of other viable candidates as well. Get the best in the market right now so he can settle down and get to know his staff and can also prepare for off-season training.

This 20 game turnaround isn’t going to happen without a lot of hard work over the offseason. Getting a new coach, a new system (or A system) and new playbooks would be essential to getting off on the right foot in 2007 rather than being forced to give the new coach a mulligan on the first 20 games of the season. Get Adelman (or whomever) now and get the kinks out of the system. Waiting only increases the chances of losing him to someone else…like we did Don Nelson. If we’re gonna talk about number 17, remember that almost every team that’s won a championship has had an already legendary coach behind it. The opportunities to go out and get one are not often, and Adelman is about the biggest name out there, and would fit perfectly with our potent offensive line-up.

well said Jeff

Birkowski you are the “Mikey” of this board; you truly hate everything. Great line! :D

Couldn’t agree more on everything you wrote. Espn radio the other day said some scouts were thinking Druant could upend Oden if his play continues to improve. And Oden continues to get shut down by players like of Horford. Most likely that won’t happen, but it was interesting that it even came up on the radio. I too like the entire package Druant brings.

Great trade by Indiana….I think

Problem is Mike Dunleavy and Murphy have 5 years left on their contracts.

I guess Al Harrington fell out of favor with his second stint in Indiana.

Needless to say O’Neil isn’t going anywhere at the moment and I don’t think you’ll see Garnett going as well.

NOK beat Orlando the other night, without Chris Paul, Peja, or David West. Thats very encouraging news for a Celtic team looking around for a Portland or Memphis to play. Even a broken watch is right twice a day.

Agree Acient Red, I think Indiana got the better of that deal.

Re: Durrant vs. Oden
A thought about who would fit better with this team. If Big AL is here for the long haul, we need to add front court player with the ability to hit outside shots.

Oden and AL would limit each others games, b/c they are so similiar in style of play in that they are both inside scorers. On the other hand, Durrant and AL compliment each other pretty well. Durrant could play the 4 and have the freedom to play his inside/outside game, while AL would be able to stay at 5 where he seems to belong and have the freedom to dominate the lane without spacing problems.

Celtics need interior defense and a PG who plays defense. Oden will be a phenomenal defender in the nba.

1. Injuries: Shit happens… I think NE/BOS fans have been spoiled in this regard, until this year. ‘nough said.
2. Tanking: Ainge has been called out in the past for remarks he has said about the team tanking for draft position. So, he’ll be more careful in that regard come next time.
3. The Draft: I was too tired to stay up for the whole TEX/OKST game last night, but Durant looks like the real deal. Hes been the best American inside/outside player since Bird. I know, its a bit much, but I’m not taking it back.
4. Doc Rivers: He’s always been a bad in-game coach. But, the belief when he came here was that he could develop young guys, and I don’t believe hes done well in that regard. I have not liked him for a while. But, I realize at this point, it’s moot. It bothered me earlier in the year.
5. Moral Victories: Yeah, tough stuff. I remember the Memphis game last year with Ricky’s GW jumper off the pass from Pierce. I have not had that high ONCE this year. No game where I clutched my fist and say, “we got ’em, tonight!” I miss it. And thats the hardest part.

Ancient Red, have to disagree with you – Golden State was desperately hoping someone would take Dunleavy and Murphy off their hands. Chris Mullin has given out some ridiculous contracts, and those were among the worst two offenders. I just think Indy is going to be in an ugly cap situation with those two on the books

I’m a big fan of Durant, do not think Noah will be a fit for the Cs. On KU’s Wright too soon to tell, time will tell if he comes out. We need a big guy who can get it done offensively. Players who can open it up for Pierce to drive, Green to isolate, AL to get the ball low without the defense suffocating him. Oden will be the man.

This draft according to some experts, I think Dick Vitale said it too is very talented at the extreme upper end (early picks). After awhile though it doesn’t stay as impressive. A top 5 pick should be a godsend.

On the Indy trade, I think Golden State got the better of the deal.

Your right I apologize our loss to Indiana

I want to comment on the Oden vs Durrant. Oden could be the next Bill Russell – and shame on me for saying that. He would completely turn the Celts into a Championship Contender. I think Durrant will take time especially with his frame and don’t believe that Durrant will be able to turn a bad team into a Contender by himself. Several times in last nites game KD was bumped off his shot, in some leagues those would be fouls but probably not in the League. There were times he was in position to block a shot or grab a rebound and couldn’t or didn’t. He has a tremendous offensive game, but his defense needs lots of work.

As for Oden and Al playing together, I don’t see any problem – I seem to remember MacHale playing with Robert Parish and or Bill Walton heck Mac played with Rick Robie who couldn’t hit the basket from more than 6 ft. Oden will make Al better. Are they going to double Al with a big and leave Oden on the weak side with a small forward or guard. That ain’t going to work. Besides, Oden will be able to erase Al defensive mistakes. Hell, he eliminate defensive mistakes by DW, TA, RR, Bassy, PP, Wally, GG, RG and everyone else who’s put out there.

Let’s all remember that Oden is playing with one hand, his left hand, which is his off hand. Heck, I know people who can’t open a door with their off hand. There is no debate from NBA GM and personnel people who the top prospect is and that’s Greg Oden. Pls don’t be confused with hype, flash and the media. In fact, if we don’t get Oden, I’d rather have Noah than Durrant, although I wouldn’t feel cheater by having to take Durrant, the guy has the tools to be a star.

I don’t know how anyone could see that trade as a win for Indiana – Golden State got the best player in the trade (Harrington), got rid of two monster contracts that were dedicated to two absolute stiffs that didn’t fit their team anyway(how many years now has Troy Murphy gotten into fantastic shape, worked like a maniac in the off-season, been proclaimed the most improved player and ready for a breakout, and then produced at exactly the same level as the year before, anyway?), picked up a valuable (if crazy) piece in Jackson and got the best player amongst the scrubs (Jasikevicius, who should be a nice fit behind Davis). Not to mention, Harrington fits the style the Warriors want to play better, they get financial flexibility out of the deal and they firmly establish Biedrins as a starter. If Davis can stay healthy (a big if, always), Golden State just got better, potentially a lot better. Of course, if Dunleavy starts playing up to his supposed potential alongside O’Neal, all bets are off, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

OK, reality check time. PP will be back and so will Wally, Dolante and the rest of the gang(except for TA). Expect the Cs to be drafting no better than 5th.

…so, the question is: Who’ll be available then?

Indiana got totally screwed, but they got rid of the players that JO wanted gone. Wait until he sees what’s coming in.

As for the issues with this Celtics team, the real issue is “who cares?”

Picking up on the Durant vs. Oden theme (if it is not verboten).

Would be awsome to have Al @ PF, Durant @ SF and Green @ G/F. Not sure Durant or give you the interior defense we need which is why I left the center pos open (?). Oden solves that dilema -

Oden
Al
Green
Pierce
Rondo

Oden is the number one pick if he declares for the draft. That’s a lock. The only question is the lottery draft order after that, and I think it’s wide open. We won’t have a good handle on that until early June.

tommyfan said:
“oden will be a cross between lebron & shaq.
3 to 4 rings for whom ever drafts & signs him.”

LOL. But a poor man’s Patrick Ewing is probably not a bad projection.
 

Injuries, tanking, the draft, Doc, and moral victories?
What does that leave out?