Playing Hurt

West IS injury prone. He needs to get over it and take better care of himself rather then play hurt.

There goes the minutes for Rondo and Gerald.

Still, you seem to have an unhealthy hatred for Telfair.

I’m not sure if West is injury prone, or not…but forcing himself back before he is ready only to aggravate it and miss more time has not helped his case. The fact that most fans can see that Wally and West need more rest, and Doc keeps them in the game is maddening.

We need Wally healthy by the trade deadline…most teams are in it and deals will popping up bigtime next month but the pick stays

If they rush back or are rushed back you just increase the probability
of more injury. Hopefully they don’t rush Pierce or he could be out even
longer. Hmmm.

The Celtics seem to need a system where players are not just good-to-go or out, because Doc just doesn’t seem to be able to judge when they have had enough, and are starting to hurt the team.

This also seems to be true with when players are winded. It’s kind of like watching Grady Little with his relief pitchers. Watch to see how many times Al Jefferson makes a stupid foul or a dumb turnover when he needs a blow. The classsic example was the 5th foul against the Hawks on Monday.

There is absolutely no reason that Rondo should not be starting this next game. None whatsoever. West, Wally and Gerald should split the 2 and 3 minutes between them. In the last 3 games, where Rondo has seen serious minutes, his /- for the three is exactly ZERO…a -1, a 0 and a 1 in the three games respectively. You may ask “What is so great about that?” The answer to that question is the plus/minus of EVERYONE ELSE.

Telfair …-20
Jefferson…-5
Green…-5
Gomes…-23
Perkins…-11
Kandi…-18
Powe…-18
Ray…-5

Don’t even go down the “he didn’t play much” road. He averaged 28 minutes a game, and played the ENTIRE fourth quarters of two of these games – both in which the Celtics made spirited comeback bids. In short, the Celtics didn’t lose these games because of Rondo, as they did better with Rondo out there than ANY other Celtic.

How does that affect West? Rondo leads the team with a 45 total/net plus/minus. West has a 79 plus/minus, and his plus/minus at the point is a wretched -85 in LESS playing time at the point than Rondo. Rondo’s heroics down the stretch runs of the Raptors and Hawks game show that his / is no fluke, the kid is just good.

If you want some standard stats to go by, I’ve been keeping running tally of the times that Doc actually handed the reins over to the kid and let him actually run the team in a competitive game down the stretch run. Those games were the first game against the Magic, the Jazz game, the game in Seattle, this last Raptors game, and the Hawks game. Here are his cumulative stats (all 5 games added up) from his final insertion in the third quarter to the end of the game:

84 minutes (give or take a couple), 36 points, 23 assists, 15 rebounds, 11 steals, against TWO turnovers. Team /- over those minutes of 22. Just chop them in half, and you get a 42 minute line of 18 points, 11.5 assists, 7.5 boards, 5.5 steals and ONE turnover. Mind you, these numbers are from the latter part of the third quarter and the fourth quarter of COMPETITIVE games. There is no early game stat stuffing or “garbage time” included here. The Celtics were in these games right to the last couple of minutes, and even right to the last possession in a couple.

Are West and Telfair even CAPABLE of putting up a line like that? I certainly don’t think so. It should be noted that in three of those games Rondo didn’t have Paul Pierce out there with him which makes a HUGE difference.

Rondo is our best point guard. He plays his best when the chips are down, and it should be noted that the vast majority of those those stats came in the fourth quarter, and further more that of those fourth quarter stats he performed even better in the last 6 minutes than the first six when our entire starting lineup (except Rondo, of course) was going head to head with their starting lineups. There is NO excuse for this kid not starting and logging the majority of the minutes at the point. He plays BETTER with our best players and he makes THEM better.

“The Celtics have been so undermanned this year due to injuries that it seems like more people are playing at less than 100% than ever before.”

The idea that any of these guys are going to be 100% is absurd. The fact that Wally mentions it in his comment is interesting.

I don’t think that people have a good idea of what these guys put thier bodies through on a consistent basis just to be able to get out on the court.

At this point in the season what players consider 100% is probably closer to 75% healthy for most of us.

No one is going to give up anything of value for Wally. His trade value isn’t going to be increased by having 4 good games as long as he’s still owed 30 million dollars.

Look at the deal that was made yesterday. To get rid of Murphy and Dunleavy’s deals the Warriors had to take on Harrington’s deal, take on Steven Jackson (and his contract from hell, not to mention personality) and give up Ike Diogu. Getting rid of Wally for anything more than cap relief is a pipe dream.

MikeFromWherever,
Rondo may be our best point guard some day. Right now he is not. he is an exciting player to watch, I’ll give him that right now. he just seems to make things happen. But, if he wasn’t getting the steals and jumping passing lanes people would be complaining just asa much about his defense. He just can’t stay in front of his man either and it hurts us. he can’t shoot a lick outside of 12 feet, which hurts Jefferson and Gomes. He doesn’t turn the ball over (by the way neither does Telfair) but he makes bad mistakes. He picks up his dribble too soon on pick and rolls. He dribble the ball into traffic without anywhere to go and picks up his dribble looking for someone to bail him out. He doesn’t always take the right route or make the right pass on fast breaks, as pointed out by Cousy a few times Monday.

But, he does make things happen, which is what people notice. He is great getting into the lane and putting up shots. He seems to have defensive instincts which could be a positive for his man to man defense improving. He sees the court pretty well, which you could see on his long pass to Gomes (which was fumbled out of bounds) and seems to get the idea of fast break basketball.

Telfair and West are our best options at the point right now though. That’s a bad thing in West’s case because he isn’t and will never be a great pg, he’s always going to be a pretty good off the bench scoring pg/sg. Telfair, however, I still hold out hope for. The kid is 21 years old, seems to have a great work habit, has shown signs of an improvement on the defensive end although his size will always be a downfall there, and can get to the hoop but can also shoot the jumper. Once he matures, which he still desperately needs to do, he is going to be a player. He doesn’t turn the ball over and makes good decisions for the most part, but, again, needs more work on knowing matchups and offensive motions.

Right now, I wouldn’t say Rondo is our best pg. remember this last game was against Atlanta, and he had a tough time shooting the ball. they aren’t exactly the Pistons (who he struggled against). Before that it was the Raptors, which may have been his best game in a Celtics uniform. As you can see he isn’t all that consistent of a scorer, which is what we need right now seeing as how 4 of our top 6 scorer are injured. Once we see him become a consistent scoring threat that the defense needs to pay attention to complaining about his lack of minutes will be justified, but right now he just isn’t giving us that.

Doc’s job is to win games, remember that. He has done a very good job developing players, but hasn’t been able to put together the wins, which is a problem. there’s no reason for him to stop trying to win though. Until Danny tells him that (which I sincerely hope he doesn’t) Doc is going to keep throwing out what he believes to be his best options, whether they be right or wrong.

I think these guys are a bunch of sissies and should suck it up and play. After all, Doc Rivers has been suffering from an apparent case of cerebral atrophy since 2004, yet he goes out and coaches every night.

Frustration is setting in with all of us….. reading everyones comments is bringing us all down.

Maybe the season can’t end quick enough!

“reading everyones comments is bringing us all down.”

Can’t speak for anyone but myself, but watching this product is what’s bringing me down :-\

AC,

I dont often agree with you but you hit the nail on the head this time. Good job. i’ve been wanting to say those things for a long time (i think telfair will be good too, he is only 21 with no college exp.) I think west’s days are numbered along with wally’s. Telfair and rondo are our points of the future and right now telfair is the better of the two. it just seems rondo is more spectacular if that makes any sense. I also agree that rondo has trouble saying in front of his man, just like telfair but rondo plays better team D and thus creates more steals, etc.

Celtics need to start acting like a professional organization. Point 1: Scal driving Tony Allen to the hospital after his (Tony’s) horrific injury. (this despite having injured his own knee in the same game). Allen needed to be in an ambulance!!!!! Point 2: Traning staff/team Doctor needs to CLEAR injured players for their return to the hardwood. Leting players make these deceisions is assine. Guess the coach (Doc) does not check with the training staff. Or maybe Celtics do not have a creditable training/medical staff.

IowaGuy,
I don’t think it’s really so much playing “team defense” as he just has a sense of how to get the ball back. You’ll often see him making mistakes on the defenseive end: slacking off his man when he doesn’t have the ball, double teaming when he shouldn’t be, not paying attention to his man. But, he just knows how to get the ball back which is something special, no denying that. The steals are a direct result of that. You’re right about everything else, especially about Delonte’s days being numbered here.

Welcome to reality. Players have been doing this since there was naked wrestling in Greece. If players took time off every time they could use rest and rehabilitation, you’d whine that they were missing half the season.

Anyone who has ever been an athlete knows that the training room is often completely full of it.

“MikeFromWherever,
Rondo may be our best point guard some day. Right now he is not. he is an exciting player to watch, I’ll give him that right now. he just seems to make things happen. But, if he wasn’t getting the steals and jumping passing lanes people would be complaining just asa much about his defense. He just can’t stay in front of his man either and it hurts us. he can’t shoot a lick outside of 12 feet, which hurts Jefferson and Gomes. He doesn’t turn the ball over (by the way neither does Telfair) but he makes bad mistakes. He picks up his dribble too soon on pick and rolls. He dribble the ball into traffic without anywhere to go and picks up his dribble looking for someone to bail him out. He doesn’t always take the right route or make the right pass on fast breaks, as pointed out by Cousy a few times Monday.”[/i]

I really love posts like this. Maybe it’s because I’m mean spirited, but I just enjoy shredding statements that have no basis in fact. “Rondo can’t stay in front of his man”…hmmmm, that may be the silliest thing I’ve read on this site in a while, and I’ve read some pretty ridculous stuff. Rono gets criticized for LEAVING his man to help out on others, but not being able to stay in front of him? Just to clarify things, Rondo wears number 9, not 30 or 13, just so we are clear on that. Rondo has NO problems staying in front of his man. That probably has to do with he being as fast, or faster, than any of his opponents. Sure, he’ll get beat every now and then, who doesn’t, but he doesn’t cause all of those turnovers – I’m not just talking about the steals either – because staying in front of his man is an issue. He also happens to have the best opponent’s PER on the team, and he holds his man to a significantly lower field goal percentage than his own, and that is saying A LOT.

As for Cousy’s comments, one came on a fastbreak where Cooz thought he should have split the defense instead of taking it to the hole. After he realized that the other man on the break was Allan Ray, he basically left the whole thing alone. In the other case, he thought that Rondo could have passed Bassy the ball later on a break. In both cases, the Celtics were not hurt by Rondo’s decision as the got two trips to the FT line off of them. I also guess that you missed Cousy remark that the sequence with Allan Ray was the FIRST time that he thought that Rondo did not make the right decision in a transition opportunity in ANY game that he watched him play. Yeah, I thought you forgot that part.

[i]"But, he does make things happen, which is what people notice. He is great getting into the lane and putting up shots. He seems to have defensive instincts which could be a positive for his man to man defense improving. He sees the court pretty well, which you could see on his long pass to Gomes (which was fumbled out of bounds) and seems to get the idea of fast break basketball.

Telfair and West are our best options at the point right now though. That’s a bad thing in West’s case because he isn’t and will never be a great pg, he’s always going to be a pretty good off the bench scoring pg/sg. Telfair, however, I still hold out hope for. The kid is 21 years old, seems to have a great work habit, has shown signs of an improvement on the defensive end although his size will always be a downfall there, and can get to the hoop but can also shoot the jumper. Once he matures, which he still desperately needs to do, he is going to be a player. He doesn’t turn the ball over and makes good decisions for the most part, but, again, needs more work on knowing matchups and offensive motions."

Rondo is the youngest player on the roster, younger than both Telfair and Gerald. You seem to think that Telfair is going to be able to pick up defense easier than Rondo will be able to develop a decent 15 foot jumper. Get used to the idea that when Telfair is as good a defender as he will EVER be, at some point 4 or 5 years from now, that he won’t be close to the defender Rondo is right now. West? Forget about it. It isn’t even close.

Rondo is holding point guards to a .427 eFG (that is with threes figured in as being worth 1.5 shots) and holds shooting guards to a ridiculous .338 eFG. West’s opposing point guards have a .500 eFG against him, but he does very well against SG’s holding them to a .388 eFG – not as good as Rondo, but still excellent. Bassy’s eFG against is .487. Yep, Rondo isn’t doing to badly at all on the defensive end for a guy who “can’t stay in front of his man”. LOL What a joke.

It doesn’t just stop there, opposing point guards average 7.0 assist per 48 minutes against Rajon, while turning the ball over 4.2 times per48. Against Bassy they average 9.0 assists per 48 and turn it over 3.2 times. Against West they average 10.7 assists per 48 and turn it over 3.5 times. In other words, Bassy and Delonte are getting lit up, while Rondo is shutting his man down.

“Right now, I wouldn’t say Rondo is our best pg. remember this last game was against Atlanta, and he had a tough time shooting the ball. they aren’t exactly the Pistons (who he struggled against). Before that it was the Raptors, which may have been his best game in a Celtics uniform. As you can see he isn’t all that consistent of a scorer, which is what we need right now seeing as how 4 of our top 6 scorer are injured. Once we see him become a consistent scoring threat that the defense needs to pay attention to complaining about his lack of minutes will be justified, but right now he just isn’t giving us that.” [/i]

I know that you wouldn’t consider him to be our best point guard. I also noticed that you didn’t put too much thought into your post either. Correct me if I’m wrong, but are you saying that Rondo’s 7 for 13, 23 point performance against the Raptors was BAD shooting? I just wanted to be clear about that. Yeah, he had a rough game against the Hawks, and only went 2 for 6 against the Pistons. Rajon was taking HIS shots against the Hawks, they just weren’t going down, that happens. Gerald has had some pretty bad shooting nights recently himself, does that mean that he shouldn’t shoot? Why do I bring this up? Well, Rondo has an eFG of .447 as a point guard. Delonte has an eFG of .463 as a point guard and Bassy has one of .434. Wow, they really aren’t outperforming him by that much, are they? Bassy isn’t at all, and Delonte is just .016 ahead of Rajon. If Rondo went 7 for 10 in his next game, he’d probably be even with West. I know that Delonte is capable of being much better with his shot, but he hasn’t been yet, and his defense just isn’t cutting it either. On top of everything else, the offense is stagnant with him out there as he doesn’t have a good handle and isn’t a particularly creative passer.

I guess I should also point out that Rondo has the best PER at the point and the best opponent’s PER at the point of any of our point guards.

[i]"Doc’s job is to win games, remember that. He has done a very good job developing players, but hasn’t been able to put together the wins, which is a problem. there’s no reason for him to stop trying to win though. Until Danny tells him that (which I sincerely hope he doesn’t) Doc is going to keep throwing out what he believes to be his best options, whether they be right or wrong."

That is the first paragraph that I agree with. Doc is going to put who he thinks will best help us win out there, right or wrong. Doc is REALLY good at being wrong. He has shafted Rondo all season, even though the kid is just flat out better at being a point guard on both ends of the court than the other two. The team plays better when he is in the game. It is observable and measureable. Stats were off of 82games.com’s Celtic page. You should REALLY check it out.

We need a true pg and we want Wally gone….

Wally Telfair to Sacramento
MBibby to Boston

…it works, and MBibby is one of my favorite pg….not sure if Sacramento would be interested on another wing though

If I were Danny Ainge I’d trade D West as soon as I could. He has only played 2 1/2 yrs and he is already broken down and way too slow to play the point.

I know Doc is enamored with him, but quite frankly , ball movement and pushing he ball upcourt is nonexistent with him in the lineup. He’s too small to play the offguard position and way too slow to play the point. He is nothing more than a role player with a very low ceiling.

If he is this physically beat up at this junction of his career, what will he be like after his 5th or 6th season ???? Move him Danny !!!

“Wally Telfair to Sacramento
MBibby to Boston”

Then we should offer Theo and West to Minnesota for Garnett….

I don’t know if Minne would do it though….

MikeDfromNP is making a lot of sense this morning. Hard to argue with him here. Acie Earl has valid points, and I too tend to blow a gasket on the umpteen possessions a game that Rondo goes in for the offensive rebound, leaving his man an open run on our court. Kid’s got heart, but I really would rather he stays off the 0-boards more often.

That said, there were these very offensive boards down the stretch in the 4th quarter that saved us/and or helped us stage a run/make a key basket.

He’s almost like a Tony Allen dilemma…you’re cringing every now and then, but he’ll pull off something amazing 4 out of 10 times, which in the NBA is a decent percentage. And to those that say that percentage is unacceptable, the thing is, if you got him to play even a little more conservative, he’d probably be very very below average. Part of what makes Tony Allen click is his headless horseman routine, and on some aspects of Rondo’s game I see that too…just different facets of the game.

Wow, that was a discombobulated comment. I meant to say he’d be a very very below average PLAYER if you got him to play more conservative. He’d lose his Rondo-ness let’s say.

Anyways, as much as I hate stats, I’d have to go with Mike on Round 1. Waiting for AcieEarl on the counter…

It took ratliff getting hurt and ending his season, olowakandi getting hurt , perk getting hurt and scali going thru a very rough patch of playing horrendously to get Big Al big minutes and starting regularily as doc had him 5th on his list.
so for rondo who deserves a shot to start and get big minutes as this team rebuilds and shoots for 15 wins this year. telfair west would have to be injured and ray to go thru a horrendous patch and tony allen refusing to hop on one leg for Rondo to get big minutes and start…
unless Da just flat out tells doc. ugghhhhh stop the madness stop doc

Good opinions but some of you guys need to get a life with this stats focus. MikeD makes good points off the stats re Rondo. I agree with him but it’s obvious from watching the games. Rondo doesn’t turn it over very much. But to AC Earl’s point, neither really does Telfair. I believe both will be good and no one can be sure who’ll develop D or who’ll develop a shot. Time will tell. And I don’t think Delonte is the PG although a gamer who can play the 2. I think Danny solved his PG problem just not as fast as he hoped. No thanks on Mike Bibby.

I’d rather them coming back too soon rather than them hanging out at home playing video games. Maybe we’ll get a win.

I love that Acie Earl doesn’t even bother to respond…

He got absolutely shredded and PWNED!

zOMG, LOLsters, like yeah totes pwnage.

Or maybe he has a life and a job.

“Or maybe he has a life and a job.”

- Doubtful

if you guys would watch the game you’d see everything AC is talking about. Rondo sticks to screens like velcro and he gets out of position alot on defense, he just recovers well. he also tends to over dribble when there is an open man with a high quality. i’m not saying that makes him a bad player but let’s not put the kid up on a pedistal like most on this board. Bassy has a different game and i think he is doing exactly what doc wants him to do (let’s not get into what doc wants though). Bassy and Rondo are both good points (adn will be much better in the future), i just think Bassy has a better handle on the position right now. I also think Dwest plays point when he returns and we trade him at the deadline to clevland for that one dude with the crazy hair. his last name starts with a V, that’s all i can remember right now.

Hey I told someone to give Master Po a asprin the other day, who slipped him the barb?

on the point guard issue, I won’t choose as I like both, however I think that Rondo will be the future, and if one was to be attached to a trade I would want that to be Telfair not Rondo. I did however enjoyed reading both view points, and it’s not a matter of who shreds who, it was good informative post of two fans perspectives (although the stat thing get to me too). Much better than some of the post that go on in here. Keep it up, no matter what side your on. I find that kind of interchange eduacational. Keep the Faith, Restore the Pride.

The comments of these 2 players prove my point that the Celtic attitude toward playing their guys when injuries are involved is assinine.

First of all, you take the decision out of their hands, it belongs in the hands of a competent trainer. If the trainer says player X needs to sit out 5 games for example, case closed, it’s not left to the player or the coach.

The unspoken code of playing hurt until you are a detriment to the team is another ignorant way of athletes. So under this unspoken rule, you have a painful hamstring that is tight, not getting any better and you force it every game because your #s are close to what they normally are. Finally, you completely tear the hamstring completely and you miss 2 months. How smart is that? Instead of resting it, rehabilitating it for a week to a week and a half- then come back 100%, you blow the hammy!

Every athlete in pro b-ball has their aches and pains. You rub some dirt and spit on it and you go out there and play. These are injuries and they need to be handled with appropriate care.

It doesn’ matter to me how injured we are or how many games we are losing. Suit up Tommy and Cousey if you must. The only exception I make on this is if we are very deep in the playoffs and the player will not suffer any permanant injuries (a la Curt Schilling).

Doc, Danny and the training staff are foolish for the way they handle these players. We deserve to be banged up with the mentality of letting a macho/stupid decision on playing be made by the player himself. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Mikednp,

this crap with Rondo has gone on since the summer league. I have watched or followed every game and I realize his /- is relatively good but am surpised its not even better because it has seemed like he has led a big charge at least every other time he was in the game. Against Seattle he did it twice. And the opposite deal with Telfair. Its unhealthy to care too much about all this nonsense anyway, but as long as we are discussing it, its an abomination that Bassy has gotten Rondo’s minutes and that is why I dislike him

you know what Acie Earl? I don’t think you are watching the games, how about that? Just my opinion

I can’t fathom why Doc would play Wally hurt. The guy needs to be healthy to contribute & has NO value in trade if he’s hurt. West is a rolling ER and probably lies about his injuries, so give Doc a mulligan on that one.

I can’t give Doc a mulligan on the injuries. In Portland, he told West to sit out and wait until back at Boston to have the medical staff evaluate him. Danny told West the same thing. West suited up anyway despite being told not to. And then Doc stuck him in the game for 32 min. His injury is a back injury and those types of injuries need medical attention. West and many pros are going to try to go even when they are injured or unsure of how much worse it can get. That’s why trainers in most all cases need to be out in front on this and their advice followed. This organization approaches injuries in an ass backwards fashion (player decides first, coach second, medical team last if involved at all).

Step #1- get healthy and get beyond the injury so it is in the past for good.

Step #2- next year we need to employ the Pink Floyd/Scott Skiles attitude of “We Don’t Need No Education”.

• What I mean by that, is just a damm aggressive approach to the game. The Bulls last year were young and hungry, a team nobody wanted to face because they were hungry (and they didn’t have a verteran star like Pierce to rely on). The educatted conventional wisdom would say the Bulls shouldn’t have had a snowballs chance in Haiti to beat Shaq/Wade & Co. and looking back at that series, the Bulls really should have won it. The Bulls didn’t care what all the educated experts said about- they didn’t need no education- they came to ball!

With a tough fundamentally sound team we need to do the same. A good coach says to this troops, I don’t care whose hurt, I don’t care about records, we are going into the Alamodome and we are going to disappoint 18,000 Spur fans for the first time in 16 years. And the macho we don’t need no education approach works many times in sports and you get the upset. That’s how underachieving teams become overachievers. We have not had that spirit here since 1969 (sorry Eagles song), seriously we haven’t had anything like this since Pierce ripped his jersey off in the Indy game.

No more stories on how the team unity is good. Many of these guys at times seem to be on Prozac and we need the opposite. When was the last time this team was good?- when you had Pierce and Doc publicly knocking heads, etc. Between now and tip off next year, this team better get some “cajones”, a new attitude, and quit playing the youth card, the injured card, etc.

Get yourselves an awesome pick this year, and then this organization needs to do a 180 degree turn on “team approach”, attitude, coaching, handling hurt/injured players, etc.