Signs for the Future
by BillfromBoston on Jan 20, 2007 11:56 PM EST
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintThree Play “The Right Wayâ€
During a difficult season for all Celtics fans, it’s important to find the positive elements and focus on them when looking for hope in the future. The message board has been ablaze with all sorts of argumentation over the prospects of this club going forward.
The multitude on injuries this team has had so early in the year has negated any ability to accurately gauge their capability as a unit. Even during the brief stretch of success before Paul Pierce went down, the team as a whole was still below full capacity.
The central factor going into this season was whether or not the younger players on this team could “separate†themselves from their peers and turn potential into production. Patience on this front has varied greatly amongst the constituents of the board but regardless of opinion, Ainge’s rebuilding plan is reliant on player progress.
The strange irony within the injuries this team has endured is the fact that all of the youngsters have gotten extended minutes. Those minutes translate directly into situations and responsibilities on the court that they wouldn’t have been afforded in such volume without the veterans going down.
Those opportunities have begun to yield results. Tony Allen’s loss was unfortunate, but there are a number of other players beginning to show their worth.
Three players displayed exactly the type of situational role responsibility that will be needed to make this team successful going forward.
Al Jefferson
Last years favorite whipping boy has silenced all but the harshest of critics with his play over the past six weeks. Jefferson had the mantle of “the man†thrown on him when Pierce went down and that responsibility has been handled with varying results.
Jefferson’s game is still primarily from eight feet and in. Being the only credible double team threat left standing has allowed opposing defenses to throw looks at Jefferson that almost no player in the league faces.
Last night, West’s outside shot really helped to keep the wing defender off him, which left Brad Miller as the primary help man. Miller is not known for his defensive prowess and that showed consistently on the floor all night.
But, it was Jefferson’s face-up shot that really helped to open up his offensive options last night. More than just the actual attempts, it was the threat of those shots that froze the secondary defenders on more than one occasion.
When Jefferson is on the court with Perkins, his face-up shot creates space for both to operate inside and sets up an opportunity for an uncontested put-back on the weak side. If the other interior defender rotates over, a jump shot or a quick pass over the top are now available options for Jefferson with Perkins open on the opposite side of the paint. Even coupled with Gomes, Jefferson’s face up shot can create a lane for Gomes to cut to the basket if the help defender commits early to the threat.
If the defense chooses to stay at home, Jefferson has only a single defender to contend with. “That’s his next step. He can make [the face-up] but it’s not his shot yet. When he adds that part to his game I don’t know if you can guard him anymore.†Rivers said.
Tonight that shot was going down, but even as he works on making it “his shot†there are other things Jefferson is beginning to do that help him to contribute on the nights where the opposition limits his quality offensive looks in the post.
“I think he learned early on that if [the other team] is going to trap him, he’s got to find a way to stay on the floor. He knows that he still has to improve defensively. He knows that if he’s not scoring offensively and he’s not doing anything else, then he’s probably coming out. I think he’s a pretty smart player. He figures if he rebounds well, he stays on the floor.†Rivers explained before the game.
One of the final missing elements in his physical progress that Jefferson has realized this year is his body strength. Jefferson has spoken about how his loss of body fat has helped him with conditioning and quickness, but he realizes that greater upper-body strength can help him be more dominant on the inside.
“Last summer I worked on getting the weight off and getting in shape, this summer I’m going to be building muscle and getting stronger. You look at a guy like Dwight Howard. Dwight Howard has both.†Jefferson explained.
Jefferson isn’t considered amongst the elite big men in the league yet and he has a lot to work on, but the progress-under-fire that he’s made thus far should bode well for the future of this team.
Ryan Gomes
Gomes is a player that has also elicited a small amount of criticism for a perceived regression in play of late. There are certainly limitations to Gomes’ game as an NBA power forward, but Gomes is aware that match ups and versatility will lead to effectiveness on the court in his future. This was never more evident than in his match up with Ron Artest, arguably the best defender in the league.
“You know he’s a tough defender. He guards the toughest guy on the opposing team every night. That will just help me out because I’m not at that level yet and I don’t get that much respect [from the officials], but he still plays the same every game so I can use this as motivation to get better.†Gomes explained.
Gomes talked about studying film and recognizing the differences in playing against perimeter players as opposed to strictly going against power forwards. He understands that his success at each position is predicated on identifying the match up on a given night and knowing what spots on the floor to focus in on both offensively and defensively.
“It was a good match up and I think I can learn from that. I’m going to break down the tape and see how I can get into some of the positions that he did on a lot of his plays. It’s a physical game in the NBA and once you have a reputation of being a certain type of player they’re going to let some things slide.â€
Gomes looks at Artest as an excellent player to try and emulate in terms of on court play. Their size, strength, and athleticism are virtually identical to one another and both have played at the three and the four spots at times.
“I did well against [Artest], and if I do well against other guys guarding the perimeter playing the three after spending all of last season playing the four it can only help. Offensively it will probably make me a more versatile player because I’m doing things against small forwards and power forwards are much slower, so I can get away with a little more there too.â€
Doc Rivers has also been quite pleased with Gomes and his play at the three. Since Allen went down, Gomes is averaging over 42 minutes per game and his role responsibility offensively has significantly increased, as has his confidence.
“You put him on Artest all game and that’s not easy for anybody. Those last two jumpers that Ryan missed front rim were probably a result of fighting the Mohegan guy.†Rivers quipped after the game.
Delonte West
West did exactly what will make him an effective player in this league during the Kings game. His best attribute is by far his ability to score the basketball, particularly his outside shot.
When West is taking open shots without conscience he becomes a player that the defense must account for and this enables him to get into the lanes and create opportunities for himself and others.
West will never have the pure speed or two-handed dribbling ability to simply break down his defender straight up. However, West is a dangerous playmaker when he’s looking for his own shots instead of trying to prove how much of a point guard he is.
Last night West didn’t hesitate to take what was given to him and once the shots started dropping it helped get Al Jefferson some room to operate as the strong-side wing defender couldn’t come down and trap Jefferson indiscriminately.
West’s defensive foot speed isn’t going to be exceptional against quicker point guards in this league and his playmaking off the dribble isn’t ideal for a starting point, but for a team that is basing its offense around Jefferson, and Pierce once he returns, West’s game is the furthest along of any of the other options at his position.
Ainge didn’t bring in two young point guards for no reason, but West will always have a role on this team as long as he shoots first and asks questions later. The more the team runs two point guard backcourts, the more useful West can be when he shoots to kill and stops trying to prove himself as a primary ball handler.
Looking Ahead
It’s painful for all Celtics fans to endure another losing season, but there are plenty of reasons to remain engaged in what the team is doing this season while keeping an eye toward the next.
Going into next season, Pierce will have the benefits of a developed low-post presence in Jefferson. Jefferson may still be in developmental mode, but the experience of this season will enable him to provide the necessary production and defensive attention to dramatically open up things for Pierce on the perimeter. With a true inside/outside offensive tandem, the rest of the team will find it much easier to execute what it is they do best.
Ryan Gomes is the quintessential example of a complementary player whose game can take off with two double-team worthy options to play with. Gomes stated a few weeks ago how much his game is predicated off of taking advantage of the seams created by opponents focusing their attention on Pierce.
The time spent without Pierce is enabling Gomes to develop other elements of his game as he is now a feature player in the Celtics current attack. When Pierce returns and couples with Jefferson to draw the opposition’s attention, Gomes should be substantially more dangerous because of the expansion of his own game.
West is much the same. He has mentioned in the past that it is more difficult for him to get his shot off against heavy pressure from larger defenders and he doesn’t have the innate skills to create as well as other players might. But West is an intelligent player who knows how to take play off of others. He is at his best when he is forgotten about or when the opposition gambles off of him, and so neglect becomes his ally.
There are others on this team that are benefiting from the chances that adversity has presented, but that doesn’t guarantee future success for this team. However, even the most pessimistic fans should be able to see the strategic position this team is in going forward into the off-season.
The final record of this team is not going to be indicative of the personnel that it possesses. Regardless, a high pick in this years draft holds substantial value to the franchise going forward.
Most on this board concur that another frontcourt player would be a boon to this team. “Defense†is the word thrown around most often by those that adamantly argue against this team’s direction. The 2007 draft is ripe with players who can step in and provide a frontcourt presence on both ends of the floor.
While no rookie drafted is going to step in and make this team a contender right off the bat, they will be able to contribute to the rotation and improve the team’s performance because of it.
In addition to any drafted lottery player, the team will have acquired another trade asset for playing the market this off-season. It has been stated quite clearly by Ainge that his objective is to build around Pierce by bringing in developed veteran help.
This past off-season didn’t provide the type of value that the team felt represented the talent on their roster. Instead of making a quick concession to placate the fan base and put and aesthetically more pleasing product on the floor, Ainge bet that he could improve the team’s bargaining position by standing pat and waiting for his hand to improve.
With over 50 games to go, it seems that the team’s valuable commodities are improving every day. Wins and losses shouldn’t be the central focus for anyone at this point. As long as the players on this team continue to increase their effectiveness and value to this club and others, the Celtics will be in a position to finally put a team on the floor that everyone can be satisfied with.
With the east the way it is now, contention becomes a much more palpable prospect going forward. Most of the teams in the East are flawed in some way shape or form. Few teams posses a legitimate inside/outside tandem to play around and with another substantial talent to added to a team deep with complementary talent, it shouldn’t be difficult to take the next step toward building a winner.
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All I can say Eric W, is your the man, your the man. Excellent article that approaches the analysis of the team with a very object understanding of the game of basketball. Please don’t ever give it up, I think your the best writer out there. Thank you. Keep the Faith, Restore the Pride!
by The Real Alaska on Jan 21, 2007 3:40 AM EST reply actions
I sincerely feel that this year will be our last year in the lottery…and what a way to make noise and get out of Secaucus land by landing either Oden or Durant.
We will be a perenial playoff team starting next season and i think everyone knows it, even Paul himself knows it and he is absolutely willing to sacrifice this season in favor of progress for next year.
Rmember, our goal is to go deep in the playoffs and contend for a championship..We should’nt be contented with what the Wolves or the Grizz have done which is one round and out..With the way East is formed, Eric is correct that ECF championship in the next 3-4 years is not out of the question specially with PP in his prime, Big Al coming along with West, Allen and this year’s top pick(hopefully Durant/Oden)..we will be sorted for years to come.
You guys are crazy. Oden & Durant will land elsewhere. The luck of the Irish has been exhausted. Our goal is to go deep in the playoffs and contend for a championship? Is that not the goal of every professional team, NBA or not? How is the shot of the C’s landing Oden/Durant more probable than that of Atlanta, Philly, Charlotte, Portland, Memphis, etc.? Tanking a season in the hopes of a blockbuster draft, as we ALL know, doesn’t work. And if that is part of Danny’s ‘PLAN’, he should be fired today. I HATE WATCHING THIS TEAM LOSE, and losses like last night’s ignite my gut, boil my blood, and make my heart pound. What a great win last night would’ve been looking towards the future. Instead it’s ANOTHER loss and ANOTHER nail in the coffins of these player’s confidence.
The future is brighter because the kids have gotten a chance to play and get valuable experience. AL is playing because Perk got hurt and AL got
a chance to display his considerable talents. Allen got out of the doghouse because Wally and PP were injured. The only reason Powe has seen the light of day is because Scal got banged up. Green and Ray are now seeing more time because Tony Allen went down. I don’t think the kids would be playing much if Perk and Paul and Wally had stayed healthy. Rondo is now playing because Telfair has played himself out of the job. But the effect of it all is that the kids are getting time and it will help the team in the long run. If they get a high lottery pick, next year could be a whole lot of fun for everyone. I hope so. They would be better this year if they could dig in on D more and cut down on the stupid turnovers.
by Greg37 on Jan 21, 2007 10:01 AM EST reply actions
Those are the big names, but I saw good from other players last night:
- Rondo taking and making more jumpshots. If he does this than Telfair will continue to lose minutes.
- Ray is trying his hardest to fill in for Tony Allen. He’s a lot like Tony was in his rookie season, somewhat out of control, but he’s mixing jumpshots (better than TA) and drives to the basket (worse than TA) well. Whatever Wally’s perceived role with the team, Ray may make Wally expendable if he keeps hitting the open outside shot.
so did anyone els notice how effectively del and rondo played off each other last night. our two best plays of the game had these two in the middle of the action.
plus it is very telling that rondo was the unquestioned ball handeler in the 4th.
i’ve been preaching that rondo and del would make a great back court tandem. however that is all predicated on del letting rondo run the show and rondo recognizing del’s play making ability.
their play last night shows me they will have no problem working together.
and when was the last time we got 17? assists out of the backcourt in one game.?!!!
I honestly dont think that the C’s are tanking the season with a draft pick in mind.
If they are “tanking” at all it is for the benefit of the young players and to speed their development. It really seemed with Pierce on the floor that the young guys preffered to defer to Paul rather than to be aggressive with their own games. There was just so much learning that the young guys needed to to. And it seemed that they were incapable of doing so with Pierce on the floor.
If this injury to Pierce is either fake or being drawn out a bit longer than necessary it is not to get Oden or Durant. But to get Al playing like Chris Bosh and letting the other guys learn how to play with him as their go to guy. That way when Pierce does come back. The team will have an established low post presence that they are comfortable working with. In effect this injury to Pierce will allow Al to become the “big” that everyone is clamoring for us to trade for.
We will be adding a top ten player to this team very soon. But he will be added to compliment a group that while not winning is playing pretty darn well and is developing a chemistry together without that top ten player.
The wins are coming this year. While it might not be enough to get us into the playoffs (then again it may). The momentum that I see this team developing when Pierce does return will be a very positive force going into next year.
by PlayScalabrine on Jan 21, 2007 11:02 AM EST reply actions
Gomes has finally showed why Doc keeps him in the starting lineup. Production like this in the future will greatly benefit the other players, taking pressure off of Gerald so he doesnt think he has to score all the points.
by Tommy on Jan 21, 2007 11:03 AM EST reply actions
People would be doing backflips in here if Luke Jackson had been having the shooting touch that Allan Ray has had lately(give him time and he’s a poor man Ben Gordon as i said when he was first brought here) ….. :-\ Other than that people need to stop obsessing with this next draft for the following 2 reasons.
1)WE AREN’T GETTING ODEN OR DURANT GET OVER IT, and please don’t bring up Noah for he is a duplicate of Varejao. Realistically we aren’t going to get anything lower than a #5 pick and imo the rest of the class from there on overrated and aren’t franchise type players AT ALL.
2)If the draft class is “As good as hyped” then we have the perfect Gm to find us a good pick outside the top 5. I just disagree with the talent hyped for this class as being the best in years. Outside of Oden, Durant and possibly Wright, please explain who else is worth alllllll this obsession about and why, especially when many fans have been happy when we lose for this so called lottery pick lock that we have. The fabrication needs to come down to earth and realize that these kids at somepoint need to win. We havn’t even hit the all-star break yet.
I also like DWest and AJ play-of-late. Gomes is doing well too.
….but about the lottery pick and realistically speaking(since the chances of the Cs getting Durant of Oden are about zero), who can we draft and most importantly, where can we find the mins to develop another young?….perhaps a trade this summer will answer those questions.
Coco, go to www.hoophype.com and go to the Draft 2007 section and you answer will be there….Honestly an overrated draft class. I don’t know if you watch college hoops as well, i do and i can tell u the hype is disgusting. So is all the man-love for a #5 pick in an overrated class that is worth our kids not learning how to win for….
I appreciate and agree for the most part with this analysis. This team has been in a tough spot having a lot of unpolished youth who because of their inexperience were relegated to playing just a few minutes. Without those opportunites they weren’t going to develop, with Pierce there as a crutch we could funnel everything through him, play competitively and avoid mistakes.
These players though have really stepped it up and seem to get better all the time. For me it has been really enjoyable to watch.
While no rookie drafted is going to step in and make this team a contender right off the bat
You will find many people willing to disagree with you there. If we get lucky and land Greg Oden, and remain healthy next year. We’re in the mix… won’t win a title, but we’ll be in the mix.
For all those saying that we have no chance at Greg Oden, you are wrong. Right now, we have the third worst record in the league. Unless we make a run and land in the playoffs, we’ll be in the lottery and have a chance.
Our goals for the year should no longer be making the playoffs (sorry), our main goal should be developing the kids and improving via the draft. That is the best thing for this team in the long run.
Would you trade 5 or 10 wins this year for a much improved chance at Oden or Durant? I would, without question. If you’re not going to win it all, there is little positive benefit between being mediocre vs. being very bad.
It’s better to learn the hard lesson – that it is hard to win, and really hard to win it all. I’d rather our guys have that message nailed into their brains this year. I guarantee you they won’t get used to losing.. and if we add Greg Oden on draft day… nobody on this team is going to expect a losing year next season.
Our team is competitive every single night.. if we can keep that attitude and fire while still losing games.. well, that’s a perfect world (for now). Sure, it hurts to lose… but it hurts to be mediocre for 20 years a lot more than that.
by Albin on Jan 21, 2007 11:57 AM EST reply actions
draft Oden ….keep Doc. He will show us how he is still capable of loosing games & prove to Danny he is not a great coach.
God Bless Doc….. he is harmless now because it doesn’t matter…. but come next year hopfully our approach & expectations will be upgraded & if Doc & DA give us the same bull then its up to Celtics to blow them out & get us on the necessary track needed to succeed in the NBA.
BRICKOWSKI SAID: “the Celtics will become a good team as soon as they ditch Rivers and replace him with a better coach”.
So with a better coach, they’d have won last night? It’s not all Doc’s fault. He wasn’t ‘coach of the year’ in Orlando for nothing. He’s been given very few tools to work with here in Boston, and the few ‘sharp’ tools he has are hurt. His ‘toolbox’, if you will, is basically depleted. Like a contractor pulling up to a job and not having the right tools to build with. Coaches Phil Jackson, Larry Brown, Larry Bird, etc., could not make this team play better. Look how scrappy they were last night. They’ve got upside. It s*cks to watch them lose so much. I hate it. But HOW can they win with this squad? They can’t. Especially when playing a team like the Wizards. And that, Brickowski, isn’t Doc’s fault.
…the only thing of true consequence this season is how the spirits of the current team are trhough all the losses…I worry about guys getting dejected, but Rivers is the best coach to keep guys possitive…
…I don’t think you need a franchise player from this draft…there are 10 quality starting big men in this draft…getting one of them gives us a quality starting frontcourt…Oden and Durant would be awesome…McRoberts, Horford, and Noah would still give us a much improved rotation…
by BillfromBoston on Jan 21, 2007 12:39 PM EST reply actions
Albin, not surprising I respectfully disagree. I’ve been widowed for 22 years, I’ve raised a daughter and a son from age 2 and 4. I’ve always tried to instill in them, that it is not how much money you make, but you are as a person. I don’t care if your a ditch digger, or CEO of a billion dollar company. You approach work, life with “pride”. Take pride in how you are percieved by your work ethic. It’s the only thing you truely have, and what dictates what you are. All the money, material things, and even your health can dissappear in a blink. But who and how you are precived can never be taken. This is why I’m so against this “tanking”. Some have posted in here that PP will not come back because he buys into this idea. Paul Pierce will be back because he has what some in here don’t understand, “Pride” how he conducts himself as a man. His carreer has shown it throughout. For some who question his injury, Shaun Alexander (running back Seahawks) had the same injury and was out for 6 weeks. And Alexander is a man who approaches his work and his life with the same attitude. PP will be back and we will win games, like it or not.
If we are in the lottery it only takes one of our balls to pop up out of that hole to move up. This is what happened to the Spurs the year they got Duncan, they didn’t tank, they got into the lottery because Robinson went down, they were 7th worst or higher, until that one little ball made it’s way to the top.
I take pride being a Celtic fan since I was in 5th grade living in CT. I know the meaning of being attached to one of the most winning franchise’s in history. I know “Celtic Pride” and it’s win baby, just play to win and conduct yourself with class by holding your head high. The players, coaches, front office, and owners that are in place understand this, and most of the fans. We should all try and promote it play to win, if we hit the lottery fine, hopefully our one ball will rise to the top, if not we have, who we are.
by The Real Alaska on Jan 21, 2007 12:46 PM EST reply actions
Yes, with a better coach they would have won last night. They would be running a better offense, playing better defensive schemes and pushing the ball up the floor instead of walking it up.
If the Celtics keep this bozo Rivers and the Raptors hire Mark Iavaroni to turn Toronto into “Phoenix East,” the Celtics can forget about winning the Atlantic Division for the next ten years. The Raptors already have TJ Ford, Bosh, Gabarjosa, Parker and Bargnani. Toronto is only one or two players and a creative coach away from becoming a really good team for a long, long time.
Oh I almost forgot if you didn’t get it, in answer to your question; “Would you trade 5 or 10 wins this year for a much improved chance at Oden or Durant?” No I would not.
by The Real Alaska on Jan 21, 2007 12:52 PM EST reply actions
I think there are about 40 games left, not “over 50”. Not trying to be nitpicky but its probably worth noting that the season if half over this week…
by GreenGeek on Jan 21, 2007 12:55 PM EST reply actions
About 40% of your Delonte analysis was about what he can’t do. He might play “the right way,” which is debatable, but with his tweener size, lack of foot speed and a right hand, inability to beat anybody off the dribble, brittleness, inability to defend most PGs (who are quicker) and SGs (who are bigger), and penchant to force action and fail in crunch time, like in the Wizards game (with two costly mistakes in final offensive possessions, and a crucial basic mistake on defensive not boxing our Butler on a long rebound), I just can’t get too excited about the guy.
He might end up as an adequate 7th man on a good team, but right now, he’s a sub-par PG who QBed the team to a 33-49 record last year as a starter, and 2-9 as a starter this year. Doc should keep him in the starting lineup all season as a way to insure a higher pick.
I remember in the summer when I compared Delonte to Steve Blake productionwise, and got flak from all the Delonte lovers who are so desperate to have a good player on their team that they overlook his many flaws. Well, after watching Denver a lot since the AI trade, I stand corrected. Steve Blake is not as good as Delonte. He’s way better.
by TripleOT on Jan 21, 2007 1:17 PM EST reply actions
I have to say some of the posts in here are hilarious. First to the injury conspiracy theorists out there, do you really think Pierce is walking around with a boot on his foot, just for show? That’s absurd. With regards to tanking, some of you guys are talking like this team isn’t capable of trying to win but not being able to. It takes more than will to win. You say it like the team has a choice, they could either tank the season, or be a winning team and its just up to them to decide. The reality is that this team just isn’t very good right now and that’s why they’re losing. Its not like they’re sitting there and going, “well we could win 50 games, or we could chose to suck and have one of the worst records in the league…hmm what to do? We’ll take option B” And to those, who say the C’s won’t be getting the 1st or 2nd pick, that’s equally absurd. Sure its not guaranteed, but its possible. They’re likely to finish with one of the 5 worst records in the league, so they’ll have a shot. All this talk about being cursed, or whatever, is just such crap. It could happen, and frankly the Celtics don’t have a choice. They’re not a good team, they’re going to end up with a high draft pick, whether we like it or not.
by maccurta on Jan 21, 2007 1:44 PM EST reply actions
Good post, Eric. I liked your insight into the present situation of our young players. I’m not on board with you as to West being our best point guard, but I understand where you are coming from. I think that Delonte is much more effective and dangerous at the 2. He has the ability to defend the 2 spot very well, and the offensive game to both score and make plays from that position. He is a good enough point guard to be a backup at that position. We’ll see what happens down the road.
by MikeDfromNP on Jan 21, 2007 1:44 PM EST reply actions
I see a team playing for contracts. I’d hardly correlate that with playing the “right” way..
by Sweet17 on Jan 21, 2007 1:48 PM EST reply actions
It seems clear to everyone besides me that Bassy and Wally were wastes. Does it scare the hell out of anyone else that these were involved in Dannys last two moves?? Rondo has savd the day but I have been screeching that we need to trade Wallly and Bassy and now what in heck are we going to do with these guys? AND if that doesn’t worry you keep in mind it was DA who wasted that pick on Bassy, why should we be confident he will do better with a 3, 4 or 5 pick? Granted he almost has to get Durant or Oden with a one or two.
TripleOt – hatin my boy on a Sunday – terrible terrible karma is comin your way bro.
Alaska – very nice second post about losing. If I were fighting a war you can give me Alaska in my foxhole any day (win or lose) I like to go down fighting with my head held high not with my hands up in “tanking” surrender.
“I’m a playa Greg”
Why does every thread had to degenerate into this ridiculous West bashing? We’ve got Telfair lovers, Rondo lovers and even Banks lovers all waiting to take their little potshots, plus Eric Weiss with his “damn with faint praise” approach.
Sure we were 2-9 with West starting— without Pierce. What was their record with someone else starting when Pierce was healthy? And if you are going to quote stats from last year, be sure to back out the games that West didn’t play, including the last 7 games that West sat out, in which they went 1-6.
West is the best pg on this team, period.
We have the meat of the league coming up within the next month. Time will tell what heart and game these kids will have once there able to play through.
Our future is extremely bright, but patience. I haven’t lost faith and neither have many of you here. Some of our thinking has gone else where with the draft.
But realistically, we can only get better by adding better talent to our team. We are in a good position with expiring contracts, Ratliff (1 year) and Wally (2 years) after this season.
I’m enjoying as I’ve stated watching these young kids play without giving up. They battle to the end.
But Veteran teams find a way to win, case in point the Pat’s win over the Chargers; it also helps having a good coach as well.
Danny needs to find a coach who can take this team and not some retread. I keep asking myself who’s out there. One name I recently heard is Coach K from Duke.
He had a taste of coaching the Olympic team and enjoyed being involved will veteran players. He would be my only option for a college coach.
But enjoy the season and watch these kids develop and play to win, even though we losing games.
Master Po, thank you..I’d be honored to share that fox hole with you. Just so you know I’m a heck of a shot. :D
For all Celtic fans I see that their coming out with a remake of 300 Spartans, calling it 300. All of us, including Doc and team should go and see this movie, to relight the fire.
Acient Red, good post, I like this guy John Beilein from W. Virgina, Yahoo had a great article about him. Jerry West (Grizzley) and Rod Thorn (Nets)consider him the best coach ready to come out of college into the NBA. But they are both W.Virgina alumni, and West kid is there on a basketball scholarship.
They say Beilein’s offense is a cross between the Princton and Triangle offense. Well worth the read, search Yahoo sports.
by The Real Alaska on Jan 21, 2007 4:21 PM EST reply actions
GOden/Durant a Celtic? yeah right…not if PP/Wally come back after all-star break….I mean, c’mon, we have to play worse than Charlotte and Atlanta not to mention Memphis and Philly, and that ain’t going to happen, not with PP/Wally back and AJ/West playing the way they are…so, moving on….
Say, we get a no-better than 5th lottery pick(which is very likely). All impact bigs are taken. Do you go with a wing player? Who would you give the mins to develop to? GG or the rookie?…and keep in mind TA will be back from his injury and Wally will most likely still be around…and that’s not even bringing DWest into the “wing equation”
..se what I am getting at? ….we are trading…no doubt about it…
..also keep in mind that by trading Wally, we’ll probaly have to take back some one’s garbage in return.
…i’m just saying….
a good synopsis, jeff. i would add rondo to the mix; finally he’s getting quality time and just makes things happen. they need a big, deperately-the cheapest way is through the draft. they really need a new coach, a real teacher, which would makes the w.va. guy or coach k valuable, however they would have to want the job, which means after the draft determines which one of the stars is ours.
no more “untested coaches” please….
If you look at the Wester Conference top 8 teams:
AJohnson(NBA Finals)
MD’Anthony(WC Finals)
GPoppovich (NBA Finals)
JSloan(NBA Finals)
GKarl(NBA Finals)
PJackson(NBA Finals)
JVGundy(NBA Finals)
DNelson/DCasey (no matter, they won’t win)
who’s the Champ? PRailey(NBA Finals)
…see the big picture?
RAlderman(NBA Finals) is available…we should go and get him
I agree with Aicent Red, no retreads. 5 of the coaches you named are old school, new rules in nba, (although good for Jacksons traingle)along with lowering of average age in the nba, makes Beilein perfect or coach K (although won’t leave Duke) or Roy Williams who Ainge tried to get before, (but now might go as he got his championship)
by The Real Alaska on Jan 21, 2007 5:05 PM EST reply actions
Go foreing with the coach
Go for an Argentina or Spain coach
who make this kids play real b.k.b.
then he will find this guyz have the skillz
but O.0000 fundamentals
FUNDAMENTALS thats what we need
thats why Pau, is right now a better
fit for this team than KG yes hate me or JO
Thats why Garbajosa, Ginobilli, Nocioni are making this league better
One I think there is a reason Alderman is not coaching, but hey that’s me and I might be the crazy one. The coaches you named, not that I want to discredit them but you do know it does have a lot to do with the players you have on your roster don’t you? The C’s are one of the youngest teams in the NBA, whether you like it or not that is the fact. Teaching like nazzbo and edgar are reffering to. But listen it’s all nothing more than specalation. No ones crazy, we all just have different perspectives and opinions. That’s what makes the world so interesting to live in. What a bore if we all agreed in everything. I respect your opinion, I only hope you respect mine. We both have the same objective….keep the faith, restore the pride.
by The Real Alaska on Jan 21, 2007 6:03 PM EST reply actions
Great piece Eric W. Stuff always happens and opportunities always present themselves. some of the celtic youngs are stepping up ans showing their potential. I agree Al Gomes and west have stepped up but so has rondop and Gerald Green as well. They all seem turnover prone at critical times. that is they get nervous and do the unexpcted. the experience will be good for all of them. we parhaps will be a loto team but I do hope we play to win at all times. It looks as if they are learning to hate to win and not give in to it. that is good
As for the lotto pick I am ci=onfident we will get a good player to mash with the talent we have we do need height and defensive skills at the center position and I hope we don’t lose focus on the Hype of who is in the draft. also we have some players who must be discarded via trades if we are to improve over and beyond the draft selection we might get In June. Those players should be put into a pool as to whom we would offer for missing pieces. For my Part Allen Ray, Leon Powe , Delonte West, Sebastain Telfair Wally Szczerbiak, Theo Ratliff, Ryan Gomes and Brian Scalbrine are in the poll from which to deal for the right players or draft picks. All will not be traded but that is the pool of players we must use to get better and compete in the future.
by Freeease1 on Jan 21, 2007 6:58 PM EST reply actions
Eric’s evaluation of players is very detailed and informative. I don’t think, though, that it matters much. I’ll go with the cynics on this one, and here’s why:
- We’re stuck with stifling contracts and stifling players — something both. Until this team gets rid of Wally and Theo, AND improves its frontcourt, AND comes up with a consistent point guard, we’ll still be no better than .500 no matter how these other players develop. (And I’m impressed with how, Green aside, they’ve developed. But I think Green is like Big Al without the injuries; he just needs more seasoning.)
We have too many players holding us back with either their contracts, their health issues or more simply their limited talent. I worry that Perkins, for example, simply is not going to happen for us. We’re having to make too man excuses for him (youth, “developing” his offensive game, working foul trouble, now health, etc.).
Big Al needs a true running partner in the post.
We need a real point guard.
That translates to better defense and fewer turnovers.
So, even with all this cherished development, we’re still a long way away from contending — lottery or not.
Playing the "right way " doesn’t translate as to what type of player you’ll be within the next few years. What you see now in Gomes and West is what you’ll probably see in five years. Steady play with little or no upside.
On the flip side Gerald Green and Rajon Rondo , although currently prone to mistakes , certainly will be more impact players in five years than either Gomes or West will be.
At this point, although it is very tiring and frustrating, it’s a long term vision that is needed and not the short term ( squeeze a few more wins )mindset that seems to consume Doc.
by DAS on Jan 21, 2007 8:46 PM EST reply actions
I like doc, but we need a coach that teach these kids how to play defense. I t’s not like were the suns and got nash
by celts34 on Jan 21, 2007 9:00 PM EST reply actions
I didn’t see last nights lose to the Wizards, but post game comments by their player were how they slacked off and let up. Gutsy performance by the Celts regardless but I think even with Pierce or a different coach, the Wizards effort would have been stronger and maybe we do or don’t come away with a win.
On Big Al, he’s improved from a 63% FT to a 67, good progress, but if he could ever get them up to 75 FT, he’s going to be one tough cookie.
Defense will still be an area of improvement needed by Big Al and many of our younger players.
My fear for Gomes is that there are games where he doesn’t seem to be able to get it done. There are nights he may play 20 min. and it seems he comes away with only 7pts and 4 reb quite a few times. I think his role in the NBA will always be suited for a back-up #7 or #8 player which is needed but more is needed to be a contender too.
In regard to Gomes playing the 3. That now gives us Pierce, Wally, Green and Gomes all at the 3. IMO one way or the other Wally must go, even a buy out, because it does nothing but keep guys like Green and Gomes from getting minutes (if Celts are wanting Gomes to be more of a 3).
On West, this was the classic problem with getting 2 points. We have a host of #2 players (Wally, Allen and Green all playing the 2 at times). West has the shooting that Rondo and Telfair lack, they have the quickness and other pg skills that West lacks. Keeping all 3 doesn’t make sense and of the 3 I would move Telfair.
Danny’s last 2 moves: Minny trade and the #7 pick moved this franchise in the wrong direction. We had several shots at big men in both the draft and free agency that Danny passed up on, and we used 2 first round picks on essentially the same type of player. This teams biggest need remains a big man and Danny wouldn’t even admit that last season.
by bceltfan on Jan 21, 2007 11:29 PM EST reply actions
Eric I agree with most of your most of your article, but I disagree that there’s no rookie who can move them (our Celts)to contender status. If Greg Oden comes out he can and would do that. He defensive presence would make us a contender. I said this the other day after watching a some of the OSU games is that he is the closest players I’ve even seen since Bill Russell. Now I know our chances of getting him are not very good, and if previous draft lotteries and luck are any indication it won’t happen.
All of the people with the “we are not going to get Durant/Oden” lines ought to be in Vegas gambling because they apparently know how to predict the future. No one knows how the ping pong balls will work and you don’t have to have the worst record to get a top two pick. Further, the worse the record the better the gaurenteed pick. If you have even the third worst record you are gaurenteed no worse than fourth. I don’t know why it is so hard for some people to be optimistic, especially about things they can’t control and have no idea how will turn out. You know some day we are all going to die, why not optimistic in the meantime?
by JohnK on Jan 22, 2007 11:04 AM EST reply actions
“Danny’s last 2 moves: Minny trade and the #7 pick moved this franchise in the wrong direction. We had several shots at big men in both the draft and free agency that Danny passed up on, and we used 2 first round picks on essentially the same type of player. This teams biggest need remains a big man and Danny wouldn’t even admit that last season.”
What big men could the Celtics have had? The Celtics need a true point guard every bit as badly as they need a big man. Danny took a shot on two of them hoping one of them would work out. It was a lousy draft anyway. Why not take a shot? I would rather see him do that with two pretty low paid guys in Telfair and Rondo than dump a bunch of money on some veteren big black stiff who played just well enough to get a big contract and retire on active duty, see Blount, Marc. We have been there before. No thanks.
by JohnK on Jan 22, 2007 11:08 AM EST reply actions
JohnK thats not true with the 3rd worst record you could pick as low as 6th.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Lottery
The first 3 picks are up for lottery to any of the bottom 14 (non-playoff) teams.
everybody gives the celtics grief for having the third worst record but weve only lost 4 game by ten or more and everything else is close. When we get piece back we’ll be fine because we got the scorer down the strech that can take over a game.
by celts34 on Jan 22, 2007 12:09 PM EST reply actions
John K: On the potential for getting a big man last year, there were two players in particular:
Al Harrington is a 15/16 pt man, 7 reb. I thought he was a perfect fit for the Celts going into this year. He’s a guy who can score from the outside, create his own shot down low, give us some boards. Big AL J. is starting to fit that bill, but Big AL J. was not there last year. He still would have been a good fit, he was a free agent and openly said he would have been interested in the Celtics. He would have cost nothing more than money which we burnt on injured players like Raef and Wally; and our salary would have been no higher than the Pacers were in signing him. He’s the kind of guy we need to win “close games” which we consistently lose.
Second player I would have gotten was Aldridge and he was there to be had. Toronto openly said they wanted to move down; but Danny said he too wanted to move down. What would it have cost us: probably the #7 and Gomes (Toronto lost Villanuva with the TJ Ford trade and was looking for help there). At worst it would have cost us #7, Gomes and Allen- remember though Allen was playing horribly at the start of the season and it wasn’t until the past month he improved. Specualtion was Bargani might have fallen to around 8 or 10th if Toronto didn’t get him with the #1.
The 3rd year is when most rookies blossom into stars. Fox Sports rated all teams last week, gave Celts a D. On Portland they said Aldridge will be the real deal and expect him by the end of the 3rd year to be a 19/9 guy (I agree with this assessment, I also agree Fox Sports and I may have baloney coming out of our ears). The fact his, he is one type of player I would have moved on. His comparison is to Bosh. No way Toronto every gives us Bosh; but if we had Bosh (minus our #7- Telfair) minus Gomes, we would be one of the favorites. Fox Sports said that Aldridge is not getting much PT because they are trying to showcase Maglori for a trade. Aldridge is hitting about 50% of his shots, averages a block a game and less than 1/2 a turnover. He’s about a 7/4 guy now. Fox Sports says Portland will be giving him much more PT in the future.
Either one of these guys this year in a Celt uniform and we are no worse than a 500 team right now despite the injuries IMO.
On a true point guard, Telfair is a run a gun guy- Pierce and Wally are not. It will be a big man, not a point that will eventually lead us back to contenders.
by bceltfan on Jan 22, 2007 12:25 PM EST reply actions
"JohnK thats not true with the 3rd worst record you could pick as low as 6th.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Lottery "
True, if you are the worst, you are no worse than third. Even still if you are in the bottom three, you chances at being sixth are very low. It is extremly unlikly you will be out of the top four if you have one of the three worst records. To be sixth, three teams below you have to get the top three picks.
As far as big men, the problem with Aldridge is that he isn’t ready to play right now and he would have commanded the salary for the number three draft pick. That is a lot of money for a guy who may be good in three years. Telfair only makes #12 money. I would rather take my shot with Telfair at the lower salary and keep Gomes then give up Gomes, pay a bigger salary and get a definite maybe with Aldridge.
by JohnK on Jan 22, 2007 12:49 PM EST reply actions
John K, Aldridge is making about 4M now to go up to 4.6M in 2 and 1/2 years. That is Perkins extension equivalent money right now. I would gladly swap Aldridge for Perkins in a heartbeat.
As far as Aldridge not being able to play right now, he was doing fine and contributing until some of the injured Portland bigs came back from injury. For about a dozen games Aldridge saw no time or minor minutes (about 8 or less). They didn’t even put him in against their lose to the Celtics. The last 9 games or so, he is getting about 23 min. averaging about 10 per game, shooting around 50% from the floor, getting maybe 6 or so boards, little to no turnovers, and a block per game. I think if they turned him loose like Charlotte has with Morrison, like Minny is starting to do with Foye, and Portland is with Roy, he could be 15/8 by season’s end. He plays with Randolph who shoots over 18 attempts a game, Aldridge only getting 6 attempts per game. You may be right with Aldridge but I think he will be around 18/9 by the end of his 3rd year. On Gomes, I unfortunately don’ see him being able to put up consistent 16/8 numbers; destined to be a solid bench guy; so again I would take Aldridge over either Perk or Gomes in a nanosecond. Another excellent thing about Aldridge, the guy hits about 75% FT, exactly what you need in late games when you need a bucket or a player to convert FT. All this talk about Celtics trying to “learn to win close games”, nope- you need players who can convert easier shots than we are capable of getting and being able to hit from the line too. We will always lose more than we win when it comes to close games with our current set up.
by bceltfan on Jan 22, 2007 7:44 PM EST reply actions
Great comments, Jeff. The whole Telfair trade sickened me the second ESPN starting reporting the trade rumors. He was behind Jarret Jack and Steve Blake in Portland and we gave away Brandon Roy for him and some salary cap relief. The Bassie apologists said he was #3 because he was injured. I didn’t buy it then and time has proven me right. He’s a garbage time point guard, the third and last option; certainly not worthy of the #7 pick. Portland is developing nicely.
People started taking Tommy Points away from me when I said this trade should never have happened. Since before the draft, I’ve been posting that Roy = R.O.Y. and I still believe it.
The contrasting viewpoint was that we didn’t need Roy because we already have Pierce. By that logic we should not have drafted Rondo (BTW, I’m glad we did) because we already had Telfair. The draft-day for trade for Telfair really set us back on the talent front (not the salary cap front). We should have let Dickau sit and consider the same thing for Raef. Either that or buy the big guy out. The largest rotation I’ve ever seen was Memphis under Hubie Brown consistently playing ten guys. The reality is that most teams use an 8 or nine man rotation and under that theory Dickau, Raef and Scalabrini could have seen garbage minutes.
GMs and coaching fall in and out of love with players based on their pre-draft workouts. This makes me insane. The real evaluation comes in actual game competition. Roy was a STUD at Washington. Telfair has NEVER been that. Pre-draft should be used for background checks on players and getting to know what kind of people they are. For those of you too young to remember, go look up the career of LaRue Martin. He had 1 great game against Bill Walton in college and ended up the #1 pick in the draft by Portland. He couldn’t play a lick and was quickly shown the door. As Bill Simmons says, we need a guy in the decision making process whose title is VP of Common Sense.
Sorry for the rant, but I’m just so disgusted by what’s transpiring with the franchise that meant so much to me in my youth.
by Cant Teach Height on Jan 23, 2007 10:44 AM EST reply actions
CTH, my sentiments exactly. There were a hundred different things Danny could have done that would have been better with the #7. He could have reached up and got Aldridge with the #1 because the Raptors were trying to trade down. Even if he kept the pick and took Roy/Foye, Gay, M. Williams, etc it would have been a huge improvement.
by bceltfan on Jan 24, 2007 1:29 AM EST reply actions
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