Why We Fight
by BillfromBoston on Jan 24, 2007 4:40 AM EST
in Boston Celtics Articles
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Despite the mounting losses that this team has endured over the past few weeks, there has been an endearing spirit of resiliency and “fight†that has been a consistent and comforting presence throughout.
Nobody wants to see the team struggle in the standings, but it’s hard to place much fault on the roster as currently constituted. The main playing rotation is more than merely short on playing experience. The group that has taken the floor recently has logged precious few minutes with each other.
On-court chemistry involves more than just occupying a spot on the roster with each other. Many of the pains the team is going through revolve around a lack of familiarity with each other’s respective game nuances, something that veteran teams like San Antonio have in spades. Ryan Gomes explains:
“When you’ve been with a team that’s been together for three, four, five years, you know every move [of your teammates]. Tim Duncan knows that when he gets it at the elbow, he can give Parker a wink and he’ll know what’s going to happen. When you have that, you trust everything that you do [as a team]. We’re at the level where we’re trying to get there. We are a less experienced team than they are. They play off of reads; they don’t just play off of one-on-one.â€
But that familiarity is growing by the play. Even though the bottom line of winning games isn’t being fulfilled the players are battling tooth and nail to the best of their ability. Mistakes have become less frequent and their level of competitiveness has increased dramatically, as evidence by their efficiency and production spike since the Memphis game two weeks ago.
With so many players displaying individual growth in their games it’s hard to argue against the value that the injury to Pierce has provided when thinking about long-term/short-term gain. Players are taking encouragement from their own improvement with an eye toward the return of their captain.
“The biggest thing is competing. We don’t have to be the most talented guys in the league to compete, that’s what we’ve done. But we’ve got to do it for 48 minutes. You can see the anticipation of Paul and Wally’s return. The key is that guys still have to stay aggressive and keep playing the way they’re playing. If we do that then when those guys come back we’re going to be a heck of a team man,†West stipulated after the highly contested game against the Spurs.
Dispelling the “culture of losing†fallacy
One of the principle arguments that has made its way through the message boards is the notion that the volume of losses that this team has endured will develop a culture of losing, or an acceptance of failure as it where.
Those who warn of the dangers that building through the draft may bring continually mention teams such as the Hawks and Clippers. However, there are some distinct differences between those teams and the current Celtics.
The Celtics have uniform communication from the ownership level all the way through the coaching staff. The team has an organizational direction that is supported from the highest levels of the team and is openly discussed and understood by all principle decision makers. Teams such as the Hawks, or until recently the Clippers, have had no such direction or communication. It can be legitimately argued as to whether or not the Celtics have an effective direction, but they’ve chosen to build around Pierce by developing youth and playing the market if and when they see value.
Teams with losing cultures never commit to any direction. They continually draft players, but they are also continually letting other young drafted players go to other teams as their new youth arrive. The Clippers were a turnstile franchise for decades before Donald Sterling began worrying about his legacy in Los Angeles.
With no direction from the top, players stop believing in ability of their franchise to find success. Players don’t get the solid leadership and consistent message they need to continue to fight through the down times. As those down times continue these players start playing for their next contracts or the next plane out of town. That’s what breeds a culture of losing, something that is not currently a part of the fabric of this team.
Rajon Rondo put it into perspective in a way that transcends his age and experience as a rookie trying to establish himself in the league.
“You kind of do think about [progress] individually, but its still a team sport. We’re trying to get wins on the floor. It hurts to have a couple of the losses that we’ve been having, those 3 and 4 point losses. We’ve got to stay positive and stay together. We don’t want to handle adversity, we want to overcome. Just stay together; if the fans stay with us, then we’ll be all right.â€
Rivers’ role in keeping spirits high
The fact that these players have been able to maintain their focus and desire is no small matter. The mental drain of losing games is a tough task to endure, especially when so often it comes from the subtle mistakes that they make.
The dichotomy between the mental errors that keep this team constantly behind and the zeal with which they storm back only adds to their psychological exhaustion. As frustrating as it is for fans to go through the ups and downs of this season, imagine how taxing it is to those who are actually performing on a nightly basis.
The players want to win as badly as the fans that follow them, more so. What truly separates this team from many in the NBA is that this young band of brothers actually feels the sting of defeat internally. The effort they display on-court should be enough to recognize this.
But behind the scenes, when the cameras go off and the channel changes these players are still staring off beyond the microphones pushed in their faces, still going over every mistake and every missed opportunity in their minds. They constantly review what separated them from a win on any given night.
Doc Rivers is the man responsible for keeping these players searching for the good in every loss. He is the one who helps these young players put the past game behind them and look objectively at what’s to be done to find success the next night.
“Focusing on the small things. Keep improving. If you keep working then it will turn your way and things will happen for you. I tell our guys every night they’ve got to show up and be ready to play. You’ve got to have great focus and you’ve got to do all the little things. If we cut down on those little things, those little mistakes, then we will win games,†said Rivers.
Rivers has been the object of ire for most who follow this team. Pierce has bore this brunt at times, but it inevitable and overwhelmingly rests at the feet of Rivers for most.
Rivers is most often cited for his lack of establishing a rotation and his inability to substitute and situation-manage single possession games down the stretch. The problem with this line of reasoning is that he hasn’t had a team that could be easily managed in this manner until recently. Before injuries fully hit the club, Rivers could reasonably expect consistent performance from very few of his players.
Beyond Pierce and Szczerbiak, none of the other Celtics could be penciled in to produce on a nightly basis. This made substitution patterns and set rotations extremely difficult. The roster was a grab-bag-o-fun each and every night, with a couple of decent performances making a merry-go-round through the various talented youngsters getting playing time.
But, before Pierce and Szczerbiak went down, the output of Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, and Tony Allen had really begun to stabilize and this was starting to allow Rivers to commit to specific roles and rotations with much more consistent rhyme and reason.
The point guard position was most in flux up until recently, but with good reason. Sebastian Telfair had rightfully earned the starting position early on, while Delonte West’s injuries and Rajon Rondo’s inconsistency kept them jockeying for backup minutes.
When Telfair began to fall off this gave West the chance to jump back into the starting role. “It’s starting to click for me,†said West. “ I’m really dissecting coach Rivers’ offense, really starting to understand what it takes to be a good point guard in this league.â€
Another injury to West allowed Rondo to get his second crack at major minutes, and this time he was ready to run with it. “ I watch a lot of film, see where I can get better, especially defensively and offensively knowing when I can attack and when I should try and knock down a shot…all aspects of the game,†Rondo explained.
Its easy to view the team from the outside and make judgments on which players have the most talent and who deserves the minutes in a theoretical rotation. But to keep order and maintain a full commitment from all the players, Rivers has had to establish uniform guidelines for earning playing time and has had to detail specific objectives for each player to strive toward, benchmarks that merit minutes.
When Rivers said a few weeks ago that he couldn’t just “give†minutes to a player performing below another just for the sake of development, he was describing the fine line between balancing the potential of one player against the collective interests of the team.
Gerald Green is currently in this situation right now. Green is more talented than Allen Ray, but Ray has played better than Green over the past week. Message board pundits have been up in arms about what’s best for Green and his confidence, but Green isn’t the only player on this team.
“I’m kicking myself a little because I had Allen Ray on the bench [against the Kings] and he had a great game the other night. It’s tough, because you try to get Gerald going. You try to get him to fight through tough nights. The only way you do that is by leaving him on the floor. Tonight is a night a probably shouldn’t have done that, “ Rivers mused after deciding to sit Ray in favor of encouraging Green.
Rivers wants his best players to develop, but he must be consistent with his message to ALL the players in order to get an effort out of each and every one of them. If Rivers determined playing time and role responsibility strictly off of potential, he’d risk creating an atmosphere entitlement for those he handpicked as the “future†of the franchise. At the same time, the Celtics would cease being a team and would begin to play as a collection of individuals, a gang of pirates playing against each other in a cutthroat battle for moving up the minute’s totem pole.
By clearly defining to the players what it takes to get on the floor, all his players feel like they receive equal treatment and each clearly knows what he has to do to get on the floor, as well as what will get him off of it.
Every player to the man knows that they must perform. Gerald Green plays harder and embraces coaching instruction more because he knows that playing time is afforded to him by production, not the reaction his name produces when he’s introduced to the crowd.
When Rivers plays 10 or more players on a given night-when he has that luxury-its because he’s fostering the sense of equality and camaraderie needed to keep a young group together and fighting. This is how he prevents a “culture of losing†to set in.
“Looking at the score every night, they’re closer than they think. But losses hurt. It hurts us all. Every night you come into that locker room and they got their heads down, its tough. Tomorrow we’ve got to build them back up and push them out there on Wednesday. That’s what we’re doing.â€
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The whys and wherefores of this season will be tested tonight in a truly big game against Atlanta, a team the Celtics are (or should be) trying to stay behind in the race for the most ping-pong balls. After beating the C’s at home recently, the Hawks have sunk to their all-too-familiar depths once again and look like easy pickings, even for our home floor challenged outfit.
This is where we need help from the coach. Doc should allot plenty of minutes to injury-returnees Wally and Scal, which will provide a boost to the Hawks’ offense.
With Philly scoring a win last night, that puts the Sixers even with Boston in the win column for 2nd-to-last overall. Oden or Durrant await.
by lemonadesky on Jan 24, 2007 8:06 AM EST reply actions
Excellent analysis of the team and the role of chemistry in building a winner.
by Suldog on Jan 24, 2007 8:30 AM EST reply actions
Great article, Eric. I am of the opinion that Doc must either change his approach to the playing style of this team or go, but you are correct in saying that he has done a good job of keeping the kids engaged. A lot of teams would have given up, even good veteran teams, after suffering so many injuries and setbacks, but our team fights every night, and that has to count for something.
I responded to anothe poster, recently, regarding an accusation that these kid were “losers.” I pointed out that they just aren’t very good yet, but that they don’t quit. It is teh quitting that makes someone a loser. If they can maintain this attitude as they improve as individuals, and as a team, they will win a lot of games for us down the road. Popovich was very impressed by their effort during the Spurs game, and said as much after it was over. I think that he knows something about what it takes to win. Doc has had a lot to do with this.
I also liked how you incorporated the quotes from Rajon, Delonte and Ryan into your article. They are all very poised young men who have some depth to them. They are thinking about where they are at, and are determined not be there in the future. A lot of players are really only worried about collecting a paycheck. These guys seem like they are intent on collecting rings. You have to like that from your young players.
by MikeDfromNP on Jan 24, 2007 8:43 AM EST reply actions
This is a Rumsfeld-esque series of rationalizations. It’s not whether or not we are fostering a culture of losing. We HAVE a culture of losing. We have for a long time, broken up briefly by two years of a middling playoff team that Ainge blew up, and even more briefly by Antoine 2, which Ainge also blew up.
“Teams with losing cultures never commit to any direction. They continually draft player, but they are also continually letting other young drafted players go to other teams as their new youth arrive.”
Well this certainly doesn’t describe the Celtics, right? I mean, Marcus Banks is our point guard of the future. Sebastian Telfair would have been the number one pick in last year’s draft if he’d gone to college and now he’s running the team, right? And outside of the draft, Mark Blount is averaging 14 points and 6 boards a game on 50% shooting for US, not Minnesota, right? Ricky Davis is the all-star Danny said he’d be. Jiri Welsch is the new Predrag Stoyakavich. Raef LaFrentz is rebounding and stretching defenses. Gary Payton. Antoine Walker won rings with US last year, right? Because Ainge takes a direction and sticks with it.
I mean, it’s really amazing to read and listen to this stuff year after year after year. We don’t have any cap space to sign a Ben Wallace. (Might have something to do with shelling out around a third of our payroll to Ratliff, Grant and Baker.) We’re young. We haven’t played together long. The kids are battling. The good times are right around the corner. For God’s sake, has anyone been paying attention for the last four years? Go back and look at the coverage of the team since Ainge took the reins. They’ve been saying the same things for four years now, because the team loses games the same way every year: they get buried early, roar back late, and fall short.
There’s one important way in which the rhetoric has changed, though. When Ainge blew up the O’Brien team, he said the Celtics would be a major power in the Eastern Conference within a year or so. Now, Ainge denies he said any such thing, but it’s there in print for anyone who cares to look it up, just like all the rationalizations we’re fed every year.
The team will be less mediocre when Pierce returns. They will stage a run late in the year – just in time to put a top three pick out of reach. But this team won’t turn the corner until Ainge and Rivers are replaced by a GM who can make smart moves and a coach who has actually won at some point in his career.
by p_dawg on Jan 24, 2007 8:43 AM EST reply actions
I dont understand Doc"s logic in playing Green over Ray. GG is a 3; Ray is a 2. Whats the problem of playing them at the same time? If he wants GG to work thru his bad times, and I agree 100% in giving the most available time to GG (being consistent with my previous posts, then sit somebody esle if he needs both Ray and GG to play at same time; not play one at the expense of the other. If instant offense is needed with the crowd we are playing now, play both GG and Ray and let them grow together too. Its just a learning experience, isnt it?
Eric,
This is what I’ve been trying to say about Doc Rivers for over a year now and just couldn’t put it as eloquently as you. Brilliant analysis of what he does for this team and the young players. Not the best coach in the world by any means but perfect for this team right now.
“When Ainge blew up the O’Brien team, he said the Celtics would be a major power in the Eastern Conference within a year or so. Now, Ainge denies he said any such thing, but it’s there in print for anyone who cares to look it up”[/quote]
Find that for me and then I’ll believe it. I remember him saying, when he first blew the team up, that the team that was currently in place was not going anywhere and we had to build a winner from the ground up. Unfortunately we never got to the ground and it’s been harder than he had hoped for.
[quote]Marcus Banks is our point guard of the future. Sebastian Telfair would have been the number one pick in last year’s draft if he’d gone to college and now he’s running the team, right? And outside of the draft, Mark Blount is averaging 14 points and 6 boards a game on 50% shooting for US, not Minnesota, right? Ricky Davis is the all-star Danny said he’d be. Jiri Welsch is the new Predrag Stoyakavich. Raef LaFrentz is rebounding and stretching defenses. Gary Payton. Antoine Walker won rings with US last year, right? Because Ainge takes a direction and sticks with it.
This is all ridiculous. Marcus Banks had the talent to be the point guard of our future, just not the head for it. How was Ainge supposed to know that when he was a rookie? Sebastien Telfair WOULD have been the number one pick in last years draft. He would have been the perfect point guard for Pitino’s style of play and would have gotten media attention. I mean who was the number one pick last year? A foreign kid who most hadn’t heard of until a few weeks before the draft. Shut up about Mark Blount. He did that for a few weeks here and there while he was here. Now that he’s gone you want to complain about it? He was a burden on this team and their overall attitude. Plus, he sucked and outside of a few weeks where he was miraculously motivated he never played up to what he was paid. We all wanted him out of town. Danny never said Ricky Davis would be an All-Star. That was a good trade when we made it. Eric Williams, Tony Battie and Kedrick Brown for Ricky Davis and a servicable center in Chris Mihm, come on. That’s a good trade and Danny had no reason not to make it. Sure, Jiri and Raef were mistakes, Ainge admits that. But, he turned jiri into a first round pick, which is up there with water to wine. Raef was moved for a future talent in Telfair and a shorter contract in Ratliff. At least he admitted his mistake and made up for it somewhat. Dont get me started on the Gary Payton situation, a mistake from the beginning. I think he caused a lot more clubhouse problems than we know. Plus he and Antoine won titles because of Dwayne Wade and Shaq, most of that title had nothing to do with them.
Basically what I am saying is all of the things you are holding against Ainge are wrong, with the possible exception of the original Antoine out of town trade. You are putting words in his mouth that were never there. These trades needed to be made and there was no better move to make at the time. They were all the right moves, except the Antoine trade, some of them just didn’t turn out well.
by Acie Earl on Jan 24, 2007 9:08 AM EST reply actions
The media has given Danny and Doc a free pass for a long time now. They’ve bought the talent excuse, the youth excuse, and now the injuries excuse. And come out appreciating management’s patience with the mesn they have created.
Now I’m a lifer as a Celtics’ fan, but I’m also a realist. This is a mess. The roster has straddled the line between competing and rebuilding for too long. The coach is simply incompetent at this level. Big changes have to be made this offseason, or we will suffer through another terrible season next year, probably sugar-coated by a series of new and unbelievable excuses.
The silver lining is getting farther and farther out on the horizon. Excusing this level of failure may make the present more “presentable”, but it will only prolong the failure.
by ThickNThinFan on Jan 24, 2007 9:18 AM EST reply actions
I think a major reason why this team plays so hard is that despite their record and continuous losing, they truly believe that if the core group stays together, they can be a great team. They’re genuinely excited about their future, and that is a huge motivator. When you have guys like Jefferson, Green, and Rondo — all of whom I truly believe can be special players — and add to that character guys like Gomes, West, and Perk, I think that makes for a very positive vibe in the locker room (and Doc’s fatherly good guy ra-ra role doesn’t hurt the cause either), which translates to the court. If you just had the grit/toughness element without the innate talent, it wouldn’t work because there needs to be a light at the end of the tunnel. And if you only had the innate talent element and not the grit, then you would degenerate into a bunch of sulking, selfish players, much like the Blazers from the past 10 years.
by Roark on Jan 24, 2007 9:25 AM EST reply actions
Another great article EricW, thanks for sharing this deep look into the Celtics culture.
by Wookie on Jan 24, 2007 9:31 AM EST reply actions
Eric, this is the best article I’ve read all year. I’ve always been a Doc fan and you so eloquently explain the situation he is in and the job he has done. I’m not saying you’re defending Doc or not as I don’t know your feelings about him, but I think you’ve hit the perspective right on. I know you can’t put everything into one article, but I think the players deserve so much credit for what is happening. For those complaining about Danny’s choices, the personal quality of these players is a testament to good choices. They are coachable and want to learn. If there is a fault they are probably trying too hard. I also think much credit must go to Paul Pierce who has personally stood behind and helped these guys, especially Tony Allen and Gerald Green.
Well, in 1996-97, the year they tanked to get Duncan, the Spurs were 20-62. That team was led in scoring by an aging Dominique Wilkins. The Next year, with Duncan and the Admiral, they won 56 games. The year after that they were NBA champions (in the strike-shortened year).
Aside from David Robinson, only two players on the ’96-97 team played major minutes on the championship team: Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson. In addition to Duncan, the 1998-99 Spurs had added Mario Ellie, Jaren Jackson, Malik Rose, Antonio Daniels and Steve Kerr.
This Celtics team is more like the bad Dallas teams of the mid 1990’s, when they had the young Jason Kidd, Jamal Mashburn and Jimmy Jackson. Dallas didn’t become a winning team until 2001, after they acquired Nash and Nowitski really started to blossom (2001 was his third year).
Good article. It’s clear to succeed in any sport, you need players who can execute & work together.
I’m as critical as anyone of Doc’s game management, but that’s almost the least of this team’s worries.
Most of the players are still learning the game, figuring out how to work together, etc.
Ainge has got to decide who his core players are this summer & build from there. I’d stick with PP, Al, West, TAllen, Rondo, Perk & Gomes. I’d try to hang onto Green, but this team needs improved defense, not offense.
The biggest holes continue to be experience at PG & Center. Our players at those positions get schooled on a nightly basis by vets.
EricW – I repsectfully disagree with your well written article on several points regarding Doc. But….alas I have to work for a living and I also need more coffee to clear the fog. I will say this now however….
I am sure Doc has done the absolute best he can, and he deserves solid credit for specific things he has done that are intnagible, immeasurable, but yet quite pertinent to maintaining a “team” in a diffucult spot as we find ourselves. He is a very good man I think.
With that said, there are too many mistakes I have seen being made from my humble perspective as a fairly observant, attentive, patient, armchair loyal fan of this team, to ever overlook entirely about Doc.
I just think at some point Wyc will have to say “You guys had your shot and I think we need to go in a different direction” I hope I am wrong, and will gladly eat my words in a piece of humble apologetic pie if I am. But me thinks I am right. It’s only a matter of time.
Again thanks for the effort on the article
Peace
Doc is a perfect coach for this team at the moment and he will be back next year because he is losing games and developing players. Iâ€â"¢m sure if he doesnâ€â"¢t make the playoffs next year he will be gone.
Problem will come when these kids start to grow and mature, they will tune him out. It’s inevitable.
I know coaching kids, they beginning to tune you out and they need someone new coming in and cracking the whip.
Danny in my mind has done a great job assembling this group. Problem is that he is taking longer to assemble this group because of the youth and inexperience. Yes, some of his trades didnâ€â"¢t go down well, but he has a bright future with this core.
Rick Pitino wanted a quick fix and didn’t have the patience to work through the growing pains.
As fans, that’s our problem as well. We want instant gratification and not hear we are working toward the future in building a championship team year in and year out.
I have a tremendous amount of faith in our youth and also feel that Paul Pierce has matured the most this season. Yes, Paul and not Jefferson or Green or anyone else. Because Paul is seeing the game differently and how itâ€â"¢s played, he’s seeing what he will need to do and not do on the court, and maybe he is realizing as did Michael Jordan that it takes a whole team to win.
My only fear going forward will be how Doc manages the court.
In my mind management is set with this team going into the Lottery and not making the playoffs.
This team losing will not affect them for next season. They are a different group than most other NBA players.
Itâ€â"¢s a frustrating season, but we needed to hit rock bottom so we can crawl back out. I stated this before:
This season in the last 20 years will be pivotal because of the draft lottery, because of the expiring contracts coming up next year, and what trade is done to bring in a proven veteran point guard.
I really truly believe that Danny will do the right by this team. This will be the most important off-season for the Celtics in the last 20 years
Those who warn of the dangers that building through the draft may bring continually mention teams such as the Hawks and Clippers. However, there are some distinct differences between those teams and the current Celtics.
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Jeff, if you mention the Bobcats, who are truly committed to the same thing we appear to be, you’d have a much fairer analogy. They have the same MO as we do….we’re in practically every game and manage to lose almost every close game. So do they. It is a culture of losing. It’s no fallacy. It starts with coaching….the cheesy smile during critical parts of the games…maybe it’s cheesy exhasperation…who knows? But he has no answers strategically in the last moments of games. When Paul comes back we’ll win a few of those close based on his talent alone….but not many. Because we’ll be back in those last possessions to giving the ball to Paul and letting him create against 3 defenders.
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â€Å"Looking at the score every night, theyâ€â"¢re closer than they think. But losses hurt. It hurts us all. Every night you come into that locker room and they got their heads down, its tough. Tomorrow weâ€â"¢ve got to build them back up and push them out there on Wednesday. Thatâ€â"¢s what weâ€â"¢re doing.â€Â
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Doc, since it appears that you’ve figured out how to keep us in a lot of these games, you might start working on a TEAM offense in the last possessions….so when Paul comes back he actually has options. Then you won’t have to “bring them back up” so often. Because you have players like Delonte who are more than capable of taking the last shot right now….or know what to do with the ball if they’re covered.
good article. i stand corrected by TrueGreen yesterday on perk. but why if he’s hurt is he playing? doc has kept the teams spirit up. this is a big asset of doc’s, however has anyone seen any improvement in 3 years of his game management? and i don’t see a coherent offense and defense system even tho players come in and out, there is a core that needs direction.
Difference between the Hawks and Clippers versus the Celtics is that this team is in need of another star quality player.
Look at the year we tanked and how the Spurs were right there with us. Only problem was that the Spurs had a better team than our Celtic team the year they got Duncan.
Look at the Current Celtic team and itâ€â"¢s almost similar in that Paul Pierce is hurt and we have a really good nucleus of youth going forward.
And….. If we get the 1 or 2 pick in the draft, I truly believe that we will be a team to be reckoned with next season.
I agree with Master Po. The young players on this team are developing in spite of Rivers, not because of him. The losing will not stop until Rivers is gone, and bringing Rivers back next year as a lame duck in the last year of his contract is just about the worst thing this franchise could possibly do.
And even if you credit Rivers with some of the player development success, it’s time to stop developing and start winning, don’t you think?
Eric,
Great article. I thought you answered the objections of the whiners quite well, and it wasn’t meaningless, redirective blather. It was rational and coherent.
Most of us have no idea what it takes to be a GM or professional coach. Oh…. we THINK we do. We blast Ainge all the time, but who here would have a team with its best players on the bench in suits and STILL have a shot at beating the Spurs? Really, let’s get a clue folks. In looking at a team like a GM or coach, you have to look beyond the W or L to see what was right, or wrong, and keep building.
Firing Doc or Ainge will not suddenly make injured players well, or young players consistently good.
Great piece, Jeff. Thank for putting in the time and effort on this one.
by Hondo to Rondo on Jan 24, 2007 11:02 AM EST reply actions
Oops! Eric… not Jeff. Tip my hat to you.
by Hondo to Rondo on Jan 24, 2007 11:03 AM EST reply actions
The media has given Danny and Doc a free pass for a long time now. They’ve bought the talent excuse, the youth excuse, and now the injuries excuse. And come out appreciating management’s patience with the mesn they have created.
I’m not seeing this “free pass” in the media. Do you consider print media journalists who write articles about the Celtics that don’t call for Doc’s head to be a “free pass”? Here’s a journalism lesson: if a media outlet wants to maintain some measure of credibility and integrity, they stick to reporting the facts, not offer up the kind of emotion and opinion-based judgements that you seem to long for. Journalism = objectivity, pretty much by definition. You might think that it’s a cold hard fact that the Celtics are losing because of Doc’s substitutions and game management or Danny’s dealing, but that doesn’t make it an objective truth that The Media can report on. Youth and inexperience are simple facts, regardless of whether they are used as excuses, and therefore can be cited as reasons for failure with journalistic impunity.
The kind of critical analysis that you seem to expect is the stuff of sports radio, where there are a bunch of opinionated sports-minded guys who have no pretentions of objectivity or journalistic integrity, and even though I don’t listen to a WHOLE lot of sports radio, I have heard probably as many radio guys venting their opinions about what they think sucks as I’ve read print media articles based on (maybe boring, maybe surface scratching) objectivity.
There is no conspiracy of The Media to ignore the many problems that may or may not be afflicting the Celtics. It might feel that way to you, but the idea that you could pick up the Globe and find articles that spell out in no uncertain terms how Sebastian Telfair sucked the other night or how Doc’s offensive sets are laughable is just not realistic.
Acie Earl: I don’t mind it if you disagree, but we don’t tell each other to “shut up” on Celtics Blog.
Below is a Globe story from 2003, after the Walker trade, where Ainge confirms his initial 3-year plan. I have a more specific quote at home, which I’ll be happy to post this evening.
Also, your criticisms of my arguments basically amount to “coulda, shoulda, woulda.” No accountability for Ainge. No accountability for Doc. All I can say is, enjoy another losing season, and one more trip to the lottery.
Here’s the cite from the Globe.
AINGE TAKES `STEP BACK’ SHOT FROM UPSTAIRS
JACKIE MACMULLAN
1244 words
21 October 2003
The Boston Globe
THIRD
D.1
English
© 2003 New York Times Company. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning. All Rights Reserved.
Now that it’s done, you can see why this move was inevitable.
Go back to the initial comments of Celtics basketball boss Danny Ainge when he was hired to revamp the franchise. He vowed to be proactive yet he promised to be patient.
Turns out he meant both.
Ainge dealt team captain and three-time All-Star Antoine Walker, along with Tony Delk, to the Dallas Mavericks for center Raef LaFrentz, guard Jiri Welsch, salary-cap throw-in Chris Mills, and Dallas’s first-round pick in 2004. On the surface, it looks like a lopsided deal that favors the Mavericks, who have designs on an NBA championship this season.
That’s because for this deal to pan out the way the Celtics hope it does, it will require the passage of time. Consider your local basketball team on a three-year plan.
“That’s about right,” Ainge said yesterday.
Ainge was careful to avoid the word “rebuilding.” He said he believes after a short adjustment period, his team will still be competitive, and battling for a playoff spot this season.
by p_dawg on Jan 24, 2007 11:31 AM EST reply actions
I have learned to respect Doc more as a coach. The fact that all of the attitudes on the team seem to be really positive despite all the losing reflects very well on him. Yes, he is deficient in some game management decisions. But when the chips are down, he has his players’ backs, or so it would seem. HE is constantly teaching them in game situations, which is really cool.
We still must not lose sight of the fact that we must absolutely do whatever we can to have a lousy, make that awful, record, while maintaining a culture of competition and effort. That is not easily achieved. Injuries to our best players have made it possible, but the return of Pierce will really make it challenging. The 07 draft is the big 2, and everyone else. I take issue with those who say this draft is deep with studs. I have followed these players for the last couple of years, and conclude otherwise. It is not unlike ’86 where there was Daugherty, Bias and everyone else. If we have the worst record, we are only guaranteed at least the 4th pick. Right now, with the 3rd worst record, we are only guaranteed at least the 6th pick. We have more work to do. Starting tonight.
Master Po said: _
“[I just think at some point Wyc will have to say "You guys had your shot and I think we need to go in a different direction”"
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We are just getting to the point where we are getting over the hump. Players are improving, teamwork is improving, etc. The last thing we need to do now is to “go in a different direction” (which I interpret as a coaching change). We do need to tweak the present roster, but I don’t think that is what you are saying. Today the T’Wolves fired their coach who had only a short time to implement anything. That’s two coaches in two years where the problem seems to be more about the roster. If we go back a few years to Bill Fitch. He was the perfect coach to take over when LB came here. After four years he had a great team and overcoached and the players turned him off. KC Jones then became the perfect coach for that team. If we do make a change I think it should be CONSIDERED at a time when the roster is more perfected and developed as a team. These players love Doc and they are obviously getting better. This would be a terrible time to NOT “stay the course”.
Brickowski—“And even if you credit Rivers with some of the player development success, it’s time to stop developing and start winning, don’t you think?”
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In the Spurs game Mike Gorman commented on the years of experience of the players on the floor for both team. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but the C’s were about 8 and the Spurs about 40 (maybe less). The key Spurs players played together for about 5 years and Finley, a consumate pro with more experience than the whole Celtic unit out there came off the bench. And if you take the 8 years of Celtic experience and discount the long times missed by West and Jefferson, it’s less than that. This team has NOT had enough time to develop. And they are a few mistakes and a few bad calls or non calls from winning alot more games. I don’t see winning far away.
Woo-haaa, and who tells you that the losing will stop when Rivers is gone? Let me remind you, the coach does not score points or get rebounds. The players do. Most championship teams got great players. I’ll struggle to point to a team who won anything with lousy players just because they had a great coach.
The young players on this team are developing in spite of Rivers, not because of him.[/quote]
How is that possible, nevermind probable. For all of his shortcomings as an in-game coach he has always seemed like a motivator to me. Gerald Green thrives off of Doc’s comments, criticisms, and instructions. He has been receptive to all of the coaches, including Rivers and that’s why he has come so far in his basketball knowledge. Al Jefferson, same thing. Doc has gotten the most out of the players and for anyone to say that he has done any less than an admirable job at developing the talent pool that Danny collected is unfair. It’s not like we have been able to draft Tim Duncan, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade or someone like that. We have been drafting Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, you know the names. Those players are no-names relative to Duncan, James and the like. You have to give Danny credit for stealing talent late in the draft, but you have to give Doc credit for harnessing that talent. We just aren’t there yet as a basketball team. The talent isn’t completely realized. The talent hasn’t come together and worked well together until recently and now we lack the know-how and the ability to finish out close games over more experienced opponents.
Tommy Heinsohn, while he is a full time Celtics cheerleader, has never accused the Celtics of going in the right direction and being able to see the signs of a good basketball team forming until recent years. Last year being the first i can remember. He has always stuck up for the home town team, and rooted for them and against everything else. But just recently has he actually been outspoken about his hope for the future.
That’s why I know they are on the right track.
[quote]Woo-haaa, and who tells you that the losing will stop when Rivers is gone? Let me remind you, the coach does not score points or get rebounds. The players do. Most championship teams got great players. I’ll struggle to point to a team who won anything with lousy players just because they had a great coach.
Excellent point. It’s easier to do that in football and baseball. Overacheiving in basketball is not an easy thing to do. Look at last year’s Knicks. They had a “great coach” (I personally disagree, but I’ll go with the public opinion), they had talented players, but they were a dismall basketball team. The coach couldn’t fix that.
by Acie Earl on Jan 24, 2007 12:24 PM EST reply actions
Hey P-Dawg, " There’s one important way in which the rhetoric has changed, though. When Ainge blew up the O’Brien team, he said the Celtics would be a major power in the Eastern Conference within a year or so. " I read just about everything I can on the Celts and have for 50 years. I don’t remember this comment, could you provide a link to that comment.
In reading Eric’s comments, I have to agree with them. They team comes out and fights every nite. I don’t know when or if they will be winners, but I hope they will and think I see a light at the end of the tunnel.
I recently listened to an interview with Wyc in it he said they new there would be hard times but they had decided to add talent primarily through the draft and then let the kids gain experience. I think they’ve stuck to that philosophy. they want to build around Paul Pierce and that’s what they seem to be doing.
I get a kick out of someone actually want Mark Blount in Boston. I defended Blount and Ainge for the contract, because I thought he earned the deal. However, once he got the contract, it went straight to his head and he thought he was a star or maybe a superstar. His game went to pot and he displayed a toxic attitude in the locker room.
P-Dawg, it wasn’t Ainge that made the Gin Baker deal. He just had to work out from under it. Our cap numbers aren’t bad, Ratliff comes off next year, followed the year after by Wally. That gives us room to sign the kids that we want and maybe to make a deal. We aren’t in Luxury Tax hell, and could very well be there if Ainge subscribed to the Isiah Thomas trading mechanism. Ainge seems to get blasted whether he makes a trade or doesn’t. He wasn’t willing to give up Al this summer to get Ai and people were upset. Probably not so much now as Al is becoming a double-double guy. And Bassy is a bust – at 21!!!! He may never be a superstar but less than 3 years in the league out of HS doesn’t count as a bust. Look at TA, people were screaming for Ainge to cut him in Oct, and he turned it around and might have become a star except for the injury.
Unfortunately, we have been losing for so many years that most fans are POd. I understand it, but I think this team is headed in the right direction. The kids are getting experience, PP is a bonafide star, probably in the top 10-15 players in the league. We still need another big man, either through the draft (Oden or Noah) or via a trade. And we need some health – Perk and Al weren’t able to work out this summer due to injuries. Having Theo around would help, the only games he played he did provide the inside defense Ainge was looking for.
So I think things are looking better. And we’ll be a contender soon, but I’m not say “within a year”.
truegreen – I alays respect your input and comments. I don’t want what I think to be true to actually be true but I can’t deny what I feel. I feel Doc is a motivator, a good guy, but fundamentally flawed when it comes to putting together something on the court that produces long term winning and consistency. He seems to lack some missing winning ingredient.
If I am wrong, so be it. It ain’t my money and it ain’t my decision – so I just watch ……scream, die a little bit each loss, and pick myself up for more of the same.
Peace
badax33: Fair points all.
If you look at my previous post (my second, nbot my first) you’ll see an article from the Globe that backs up my point about Ainge’s plan. I have a better citation at home, where Ainge says back in 2003-2004 that the Celts will be eastern conference powers in a year or two. i’ll post it tonight.
I don’t mean to imply that Ainge made the Baker deal. He didn’t, and it’s fair to say that he’s had to work $5M in the hole for the last few years. That’s what makes the deals for Raef, Wally, and Theo so mystifying. Theo’s the only real attempt at cap relief Ainge has ever made, and it’s going to cost us $22M for two years of nothing. Moreover, as much as I like what I’m seeing from the kids, they’re 2-13 without PP, which doesn’t make me feel great about using the Theo dough to re-sign them.
Finally, about Blount: If you go back and look at the coverage, you’ll see that Ainge was hellbent on getting the bad apples out of the locker room from 2003-2006. But many of the “bad apples” were actually guys Ainge signed or traded for: Davis, Payton, Blount. Look at what he said about Ricky Davis after trading for him:
TRYING SEASON FOR AINGE, TEAM INCONSISTENCY PLAGUES CELTICS
Shira Springer, Globe Staff
787 words
22 January 2004
The Boston Globe
When asked if the Cleveland deal was working out as he expected, Ainge said, “Ricky Davis has been a very positive sign for us. I love the way Ricky plays. He brings us more energy than anybody on our team, night in and night out. Sometimes I think he should be more selfish. He’s very unselfish.”
I mean… Whhhhaaaa? Ricky Davis needed to be more selfish?
I don’t hear a lot about Mark Blount being a jerk in Minnie. I just keep looking at the box scores and seeing good numbers. Since December, Blount’s averaging 16 points a game and 6 boards and shooting over 50%. I do see they canned the coach because a .500 record in a conference that’s much tougher than the one in which the Celtics play just doesn’t cut it. (Imagine that! Holding your coach accountable!)
I think Ainge changes his opinion on certain guys the way the wind changes direction. The team underperforms. He gets a player in his sites and throws them under the bus out of this fantasy that everything will be alright if he can just get a bunch of guys with the “right attitude” on his team. Well, there are a lot of attitudes on the Miami Heat and the Detroit Pistons I’m sure Ainge wouldn’t appreciate, but they’ve made it work somehow and have the rings to show for it.
It’s Danny and Doc’s job to manage players and field a winning team. And none of the guys Ainge has traded for – none of them – have made this team better than it was when he took it over except the one for the guy he DIDN’T want on the team from the getgo: Antoine Walker. It’s time for them to GO.
by p_dawg on Jan 24, 2007 1:06 PM EST reply actions
One thought.
Minnesota fired there coach Dwane Casey. Now on paper Minnesota is a better team than the Celtics. Why in the world would they turn that team over to the Assistant Coach RAndy Wittman!
Is there a shortage on coaches in the NBA?
I don’t get it.
So does this mean that if Doc were to leave who would coach this team?
Very well written, Eric. I agree with your points on the players and Doc. But every NBA team is in every game (occasional blowouts aside) until the 4th Qtr. You’ve got to win some of them. If this team doesn’t reach the tipping point and win a cluster of those then some accountability must be assumed. And that is Doc. He picks em and sits em in the tight 4th Qtrs. I can hear it now…“the players have to relearn how to play with Paul”…Doc, at some point you need wins. This is not about watching Perk go from terrible to bad, or turnovers go from 24 to 19. Just win one in four and I’ll shut up
Ainge did say that he expected the restructure of the Celtics to be about 3yrs. He encountered several unexpected roadblocks:
1. Free Agents have no interest in Boston (still don’t).
2. The Lafrentz trade did not yield the expected results (he admited this recently), and set the team back some.
3. Obviously drafts yielded unexpected and pleasent surprises (Al, Gerald, were not expected, niether was Ryan Gomes), so, as Wyc explained the Celtics opted to delay plans and develop the youth they acquired.
4. Trades. Ainge has not been able to pull off a deal to bring in immediate help or high impact players. Now, it is possible that there were possible trades (Allen Iverson) that Boston could have made, but the conditions and terms were simply not agreeable. This comes down to who’s judgement do you trust more in terms of asset management: Danny Ainge or the fans of Celtics Blog? No disrespect, but Danny Ainge is more capable of spotting talent and managing this team than anyone who spends their time reading a blog board.
I trust Ainge and think he has done a superb job. Has he traded for Kevin Garnet or Jermain Oniel? No, but then niether have 28 other GMs around the league.
Doc Rivers is a solid coach. He’s doing a superb job developing the Celtic’s young players. If you can’t see that the Celtics are turning the corner . . . .
Eric W. another masterpice, and I admire your guts to put it in here. LOL, Notice how many comments will be posted in relations to other articles. Why, because your bringing the positive thinkers back into the site.
Acie Earl, Truegreen, and Acient Red; as always you guys say what I’m thinking so I don’t have to post or rehash. But in SPADES!!! On all your postI agree.
Lurkey; Your post hit it on the money, and is why I love Eric W. as a writer. Being OBJECTIVE, if you truely want to see something in the clear of light, one must step back from ones emotions and assess it objectively. Need more post from you, ha, I understand the lurky handle though. Some here think it’s the number of post that make them creditable instead of the quality of post.
Badaxx; you to deserve a kudo for a good post in keeping things real.
Brickowski; You were quick to jump on agreement with Master Po, as part of Master Po’s post (which I don’t neccessarly agree with) helped support your contention. However, I suggest you take a reread of Master Po’s post as there is one glarring difference between the Master and yourself and it’s this quote,
“I hope I am wrong, and will gladly eat my words in a piece of humble apologetic pie if I am. But me thinks I am right. It’s only a matter of time.”
Brickowski, you and “SOME OTHERS” latch on to your ideas and persceptions like a pit bull to a mailman. Everyday a few dominate the Blog with the same (to often negative)things over and over. Don’t get me wrong I respect your knowledge, but know one can be right all the time. Some here throw thier head in the sand and clamp down harder, instead of opening ones mind. Their is a reason why the Mikey tag got attached to you, and why Master Po came up with Play uhs, and Hate uhs tags. (Did I do that right Po?)LOL.
If you haven’t noticed, Acie Earl whom I’m sure is your biggest foe, and others (nazzbo just above) have come in here and admitted on thier own when they feel they may have been wrong. That’s Class, and lends to their crediabilty. Again I respect different view points, but crediablity increasses from quality on quanity..and an occassional piece of humble pie.
In ending I turn to my fox hole buddy Po, for reposting again in his last post and I agree;
“If I am wrong, so be it. It ain’t my money and it ain’t my decision – so I just watch ……scream, die a little bit each loss, and pick myself up for more of the same.”
Po, Don’t forget to lock and load Po! Keep the Faith Restore the Pride
by The Real Alaska on Jan 24, 2007 3:41 PM EST reply actions
Tmcdon: Just read your post and have to add you to my appreciation list. pdawg, your being a little critical arent’ you, and letting your emotion dictate your thinking im my perspective. Just some points to consider;
Pdawg post; That’s because for this deal to pan out the way the Celtics hope it does, it will require the passage of time. Consider your local basketball team on a three-year plan.
“That’s about right,” Ainge said yesterday.
That’s about right, pretty critical to hold a future perdicition to “exactly 3 years” never mind all the good pt’s tmcdon had.
Another was your attack on Ainges comment on Ricky Davis being less unselfish. Put the context of when it was said, Ricky came over from the Cav’s with a selfish disruptive tag. Do you not think for a minute that Ricky put a concentrated effort into trying to relinquish that tag early on with the Celtics? Maybe even to the point he was taking it the other way? There is an old saying, a lepard never changes his spots. Is it a stretch to imagine that over time Ricky reverted back to who he was. With the C’s and now with Minn? On Blount didn’t I just read that his contract is going to be coming up again, hmmmm I wonder if that might have anything to do with how Blount is playing. Just thoughts.
by The Real Alaska on Jan 24, 2007 4:10 PM EST reply actions
TrueGreen said: _
Brickowski—“And even if you credit Rivers with some of the player development success, it’s time to stop developing and start winning, don’t you think?”
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In the Spurs game Mike Gorman commented on the years of experience of the players on the floor for both team. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but the C’s were about 8 and the Spurs about 40 (maybe less). The key Spurs players played together for about 5 years and Finley, a consumate pro with more experience than the whole Celtic unit out there came off the bench. And if you take the 8 years of Celtic experience and discount the long times missed by West and Jefferson, it’s less than that. This team has NOT had enough time to develop. And they are a few mistakes and a few bad calls or non calls from winning alot more games. I don’t see winning far away.
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I’d just like to add to this by stating, it’s not just the time players spent on a team together but the time spent as a rotation together.
The Spurs don’t just have a veteran team, they have a core that’s shared the same roles for 4 years. When they add new players-Finley-those players a plugged into specific roles pre-designed before their acquisition…
The young Celtics as currently constituted are in their first year of being a unit and have changed configuration numerous times…the good from this season will be selected and catagorized by Ainge and Rivers and they will become the foundation of a normalized rotation…Jefferson, Gomes, Allen, and West have done that for themselves, though Allen’s injury places some confusion there…My guess is that Allen goes to the bench at the start of next year until he shows he’s back. Gomes will start at the 3, with Pierce at the 2 and West running point. Perkins will have to win the starting Center job from the rookie who’s brought in…
That will be the true start of a stable rotation for this team, and that is really how you increase execution going down the stretch of games to pull out close wins…players determine success in those situations…
Alaska, Master Po—“If I am wrong, so be it. It ain’t my money and it ain’t my decision – so I just watch ……scream, die a little bit each loss, and pick myself up for more of the same.”
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Love this quote. It should be on a T-shirt that we can wear when we watch games. I have an unusual problem, though, with this. I can’t “scream”. I have a dog and 3 cats who think I’m mad at them when I do (and I have done it). It takes amazing self-control not to scream because of the heart shown by this team and the amazing things they do do. So I scream in silence.
I think the patience of the owners and danny is paying off in doc. He is bringing this team together and developing the players as well. Eric i think you saw what you wrote because you have talked to the players been in the locker room. While the tone of your article was analytical I suspect you were actually reporting on the condition in Celtic land under Doc rivers and the present relationships betwen owners and the management of angine dwon to the players. Team work in Building a team. Thanks for your insights
by Freeease1 on Jan 24, 2007 5:50 PM EST reply actions
A few nie thoughts about this team that was interesting to me about this team. 1. A few days ago there was an article about Telfair pointing the finger. My first thought, Marcus. But, to his credit, Telfair was blaming himself, not anyone else for the lack of playing time. 2. Yesterday there was a post in a different thread by someone at the game who had negative thoughts about Doc yelling at Rondo as they walked off at the half. It was about pushing the ball instead of walking it up. In the interview with Rondo on another thread today Rondo spoke, not of Doc yelling, but about his own failure to recognize that he should be pushing the ball. He sure did in the second half. 3. What will happen with the coaching situation at the end of the season. Doc will be going into his last contract year and I don’t think Danny likes to have a coach in the last year of his contract because the players turn him off. I don’t know what will happen, but Danny can let Doc coach without an extension because I don’t think these players will turn him off. I think some may worry about signing extensions if they don’t know who the coach will be when Doc’s contract is over. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Doc calls it quits after this or next year. Whatever happens I’m sure a decision will be made right after the last game this year. And as another poster commented when speaking about the T’Wolve’s situation, who is around or would be available to coach the team who would be better than Doc. But I’m getting abit ahead of things. Just passing time before the game starts tonite which I will boldly predict that we will WIN. 3. About today’s article about the fans sticking with this team. I don’t think anyone with a ticket will think about leaving before the final buzzer tonite.
Good call truegreen, and after the half is where Rondo came back in and hadd his 7 assist. I have to laugh how some posters think they know how to coach a player than the coach that works with him day in and day out. What might work for one employee may not work for another, a good boss realizes this. The same with the GM thing, if I hear one more time from one of the posters here how Ainge could of traded the 7th pick for a vet. big man, I’ll throw up on my screen. Like they know that Ainge did not explore all possibilities. Please, what was that article about Pau where he said a GM makes 15-20 calls a day and some more. Let’s get real people and not post what you don’t have a clue of knowing.
by The Real Alaska on Jan 24, 2007 7:02 PM EST reply actions
Alaska: I kind of figured you’d say that about Ainge’s three year quote, and that you’d leave out the last sentance of that citation, so here it is again:
“Ainge was careful to avoid the word "rebuilding.” He said he believes after a short adjustment period, his team will still be competitive, and battling for a playoff spot this season."
Umm… that was back in 2004. I guess for the optimists, that constitutes a short adjustment period. But how can 2-13 without Pierce constitute “turning the corner”?
by p_dawg on Jan 24, 2007 8:03 PM EST reply actions
As promised, here’s Danny’s other quote from 2003:
AINGE SAYS HE’S TAKING LONG VIEW
Peter May, Globe Staff
1063 words
7 December 2003
The Boston Globe
The Celtics? Friday night’s fiasco was the fourth straight loss. They are 7-12 – an incredible record when you consider that the most games under .500 the Celtics were at any point in either of the last two seasons is two: 0-2 at the start of last season. This year’s mark includes a 4-6 record at the FleetCenter.
“We’re trying to become a better team. I don’t think it’s going to happen in a year,” Ainge said. “My long-term plan is that I hope by the beginning of next year (2004) we can say, `Hey, we can compete in the Eastern Conference against the best teams.’ Even before we traded Antoine [Walker], I didn’t think we were anywhere near New Jersey, Detroit, or Indiana. I don’t know. Maybe because of our youth, it’s two years from now.”
That’s Ainge saying his plan was for the team to compete against the best in the east by—at the most—the start of the 2005-2006 season, when the Celts went 33-49.
Look the point here is that Danny’s changed course a bunch of times: he blew up the O’Brien team. He blew up the Payton, Davis, Walker, LaFrentz team. This is team number three now, and they weren’t looking great BEFORE PP went down.
There’s been a lot of bad luck, but there have also been a lot of bad decisions. And seriously, why should the players take responsibility for winning when there’s clearly no accountability for any of the leaders of the organization, who are happy to take our money while they break the team down and build it up again time after time?
At the end of the day, though, people have voted with their feet and their eyes and ears. Our beloved team—the greatest franchise in NBA history—has been run into the ground and reduced to an irrelevancy on the Boston sports scene. Maybe that’s the reason these pages are so filled with “glass half full” folks. Most of the people who disagree simply don’t care anymore. They can’t even spare the energy to be frustrated. The losing has simply gotten too boring for them to pay attention.
by p_dawg on Jan 24, 2007 8:14 PM EST reply actions
Wow you really are clueless, did you not read the article today in the Boston Hearald, Celtics Losing Games Not Fans, Their feet, eyes and ears are still there at the games showing support. Hey I’m up here I can only go on what I read. but it seems that only the few like yourself have turned their backs, which only makes me wonder if you were even ever around during the dynasty years, in what made the Celtics the greatest franchise ever. Do you truely understand what Celtic Pride is about? Am I wrong? How old are you? Did you first hand experience those years? If not, I’ll give you the pass, if you were there I’m dissappointed. Oh and I noticed you didn’t comment on your Ricky Davis/Mark Blounts comments, what’s up with that? Not willing to defend that once put in context? Whatever, you want to bash them, that’s your right, I guess. I don’t think the players would consider you much of a fan. But hey I only know what I read.
by The Real Alaska on Jan 25, 2007 12:46 AM EST reply actions
Would the C’s win more games with a coach like Phil Jackson or Pat Riley? No doubt. Over the past 3 years, it would probably make a difference of 20 games total, or 6 per/year. Would that be enough to lift us into title contention? Don’t think so.
The key objective for Doc is to play the young guys. To give Wally and Scal minutes over GG and Powe — that’s when Doc should be criticized by every Celtics fan. As Eric W points out, he’s not here to win, so he needs to be building our future.
Ainge was over-reaching, pure and simple. He wants to give us hope. But we’re still 2-3 years away. In 2-3 years, Al will be an All-Star, Rondo could be like Tony Parker, Gerald could be like Joe Johnson. In 2-3 years, we’ll have a solid complementary group of players like TA, DWest, Gomes, and Perk.
However, the key is really not Doc or Danny, but Paul. Can he alter his game to let the others grow? If he continues to monopolize, continues to demand all the end-of-game shots, continues to be the focal point, it will slow guys’ development. We need to let the future step up. I think we surprise a ton of people in ‘07-’08.
by Lunchpail on Jan 25, 2007 2:47 AM EST reply actions
Lunchpail said: _
Would the C’s win more games with a coach like Phil Jackson or Pat Riley? No doubt. Over the past 3 years, it would probably make a difference of 20 games total, or 6 per/year. Would that be enough to lift us into title contention? Don’t think so.
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Both of the above, Jackson and Riley like to coach veteran teams. They would be a disaster in Boston. Not only would we lose games, we’d lose our talent because they would become dispirited and would probably not resign when their contracts were up (which wouldn’t matter because they would not have reached the level they are reaching under Doc).
Alaska, I’ve been watching the Celtics and attending games for 30 years. When I was a kid I used to live around the corner for Celts back-up, Jim Ard. I’m sorry, but my definition of Celtics pride isn’t turning a blind eye to incompetent management that’s destroyed what used to be a great franchise. And it’s not talking about the team turning the corner when they blow 18 point leads at home to Atlanta.
And as far as the the Davis and Blount stuff, for God’s sake man, this is my fourth or fifth rebuttal on this topic. Just becuase I don’t respond to every single point you make doesn’t mean I can’t, or even that I don’t want to. It means I have a LIFE.
by p_dawg on Jan 25, 2007 11:12 AM EST reply actions
Sorry, but I am not buying.
There is no way that Doc Rivers has a defined way to determine who should be playing and who shouldn’t be.
He is just making it up as he goes, hoping that something will work.
As far as I am concerned he gets no credit whatsoever to the “development” of our young players. Most of their opportunities have come when Doc has been FORCED to play a player not because he CHOSE to. There is a huge difference. He simply does not have the coaching tools to get it done. He is a very poor game tactician. I do not believe that he knows what he is doing.
I believe that he got his coaching job because he was a “name”. He is a celebrity coach as a Celtic insider once told me.
He is simply in over his head.
There are countless times during a game when I scratch my head and ask myself, why don’t the coaches see what I see? – what seems obvious to me seems hidden from there eyes! I don’t consider myself a genius at all, but I have followed basketball and specifically the Celtics for 35 years. I hope that someone that is making $5 mil a year is a lot smarter than me when it comes to coaching, but with Doc I truly do not get that feeling.
I really think that we got sold a bill of goods. I was optimistic too when Doc first came, but now I have had my fill.
The new coaching search should have already been in full swing a while ago. Maybe because of money – Doc isn’t going anywhere soon, but I hope that when the time is right – the owners will be prepared to make the right choice. Wyc you out there buddy? Pags? Forget about the lottery! Find us the right coach that will help us put it all together!
I AM optimistic that one day in the near future we will, and it can’t come any sooner!
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