Crucial Summer

Nice article Jeff! IF you put all the IFs from this season back at the start of the season—-if Al played the way he’s playing now, if TA played the way he was before he got hurt, if Theo wasn’t lost for the season, and if Wally wasn’t battling on nagging injury after another—ditto Perk—and if Delonte was playing steadily, as he is now, instead of with the shooting slump he started out with—IF all these things had/had not happened in the begining of the year-and PP had stayed healthy—I think this COULD have been a heck of a year for us. Right there at or near the top of the East! I really do!
If, again, you throw in Oden or Durant, and everyone comes back healthy next year I will be very psyched—but I was this year too! It’s what being a C’s fan is all about!

Jeff you are spot on. I am still behind Danny despite the few curious
moves that you pointed out. We are truly in a holding pattern until the draft. Paul will return, and we are bound to win a few games which will more than likely take us out of the Oden/Durant spots, but still will land us a quality player, that should be able to help us immediately. Once we have that player in the fold, along with Theo’s expiring deal, it is game on, and we can finally make some moves to shore up other areas of concern.

We have to pull together and get through this year, but I truly believe greener pastures will finally await us ;D

I agree with most of what you said. But, I think that you are being a little hard on Danny. I suspect that what it would have taken to get many the players you mentioned may have been too high. I feel that Baron Davis, because of injuries and lack of top physical conditioning, would have been a big gamble. Even in hindsight I probably would not have pulled the trigger on him or Iverson, unless the price was low. Chris Paul in hindsight would probably have been a great move. At the time it would have been a big gamble. Also I’m not sure exactly what it would have taken to get him (except Pierce) and what in addition to him we would have gotten. I suspect that Danny is trying hard to get Gasol and that if he offered enough, he would be in green. What is enough – Al, wally or Theo, and our unprotected number 1 pick this year? I bet he is trying hard to do it without that much. I probably wouldn’t do it for that much, although I would consider it. I expect that next year we will win between 45 and 50 games and be much improved by the end of the year. I would also be very disappointed if we don’t accomplish this and probably be ready to say goodby to Danny.

All season I have had the sense that pressure is building and something big is about to happen. I now think that nothing special will happen by Feb 22, but the big moves will be in the offseason. It almost has to. This team has WAY too many talented/promising wing players, half a frontcourt, and no point guard. It’s like we are stockpiling 2/3’s, and the problem was even worse before TA went down for the season. We also have a clear mistake in Telfair. It sure seems like something is going to happen and it does need to happen soon.

pp is coming back and were going to win every 2 out of 5 and will pick 6th – 8th , hardly a durant noah oden splitter or brewer spot. we will get a decent pick though , but the bottom line is we still need to learn how to win , we need the cultiure of winning..not this clipper of the 90s mentality. another pick that takes 2 to 3 yrs to develop wont help as by then we will have traded away more b bowens c billups j johnsons d wesleys and waiting on the hope that a rookie has potential..

“IF you put all the IFs from this season back at the start of the season”

If you make all those assumptions you’ve just made you’d have two guys who when healthy take 31 shots a game in just Wally and Pierce. There’s little to no chance that TA, Delonte, Al or Gerald would have given the production statistically they’ve been giving.

“I expect that next year we will win between 45 and 50 games and be much improved by the end of the year.”

In what bizarro world after watching this team the last 4 years does anyone think that Danny has any idea how to surround a player with the guys needed to win?

This is the part of the equation that I feel is oftentimes missed when a team gets to the point where they’re bad enough to win the lottery. Teams are that bad for a reason, mostly that thier GM’s don’t know how to put winning combinations together. So once they do finally get that ‘franchise piece’ the GM has to be replaced with someone competent enough to build around him.

Good topic Jeff;)

AL stays,guys like him(injuries aside) that DEMAND doubleteams in the post are invaluable….Pierce will be the key to this summer or before.Do we trade him for a vet AND Oden or Durant? would you do Pierce for Gasol AND thier #1 this year? we need another serious frontcourt player to go with AL&Paul and we’re fine,if we keep those guys…20 teams in the NBA suck and we’re one of them but we’ve got a great chance if Danny stays the course…it sucks now but better days are a coming

Jeff,

Danny isn’t going anywhere! He’s here to stay as long as he wants.

In my mind management thinks he’s done a fine job. Granted it’s taking longer then they originally thought, but you can’t blow this up again and start over, you just can’t.

You have to believe in the players you currently have drafted. You have to realize the scope of the league has changed, by that I mean that years ago you drafted players who were Juniors or Seniors in college. Now you’ve drafted High School kids and we are expecting them to come in here and contribute.

It doesn’t work that easily. First of they are not polished or seasoned and itâ€â"¢s more than a 5 year rebuilding process when you go that route. Celtic management miscalculated on the rebuilding process or they knew and didn’t want to say anything to the fans.

Patience is a must with this team. I strongly and firmly believe in all the players that Danny has drafted will eventually become seasoned veterans, but until then, this team " CANNOT BECOME A REVOLVING DOOR".

Yesterday I asked the question to many of people here who has played or coached and the reason being is because they would understand more about what it takes, the commitment, and time to become a good player or the effort and knowledge on how to coach and judge talent.

This isn’t easy, look at Jerry West with Memphis who is herald as a great GM when he was with the Lakers. You can win by rebuilding correctly throught the draft with young players and developing which takes longer or build through acquiring seasoned veterans and having a coach to be able to address all the different personalities on the team.

I’ve mentioned on here many of times that this summer is the most crucial off-season for the Celtics in the last 20 years and I strongly believe that Danny will do the right thing with the Draft.

One area which is holding this team down is a very strong Point Guard. This team needs a Veteran Leader to come in here and help, not that Delonte or Rondo is not the answer, but a Jason Kidd on this team would easily make us the favorite in the East if we had the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft, Paul comes back healthy and Jefferson continues to shine.

Theo’s contract is a key going into next year, and I think that Danny has learned from his mistakes when he first came on board to become the GM.

I think this team is heading in the right direction and it needs to follow the course and not listen to all us bloggers and fans. We’re too passionate about our team and we want to win now, instead of thinking what’s right.

Danny can start fixing this thing by getting rid of his biggest and most crucial mistake – Doc Rivers.

He’ll need the rest of the season to see what young guys to keep, if they can contend now around Pierce, and what draft pick we’ll have. That sets the table for a lot. We’ll see then the direct of this team based on what’s on the table.

One ‘R’ in “Baron Davis”.

You know it’s a rough season when a January article is entirely spent on a GM and the following summer…Hah!
And the funny thing is, it’s been that rough a season!

ok, this was one of the worst articles I’ve seen on this blog in awhile. Danny hasn’t made a “big” trade, but he has done a great job of collecting talent and assets. If you really think Danny has done a sub-par job, or is somehow on the hotseat, you’ve either downed one too many last night, or you’ve taken one too many blows to the ole noggin.

Wasn’t last summer the crucial summer? I can tell you put alot of work into that article but Danny and Doc are pretty good at coming up with excuses.

Realisticly, how could we come up with a one or two pick?…Someone must have a scenario…what is it?…With Paul and Wally back, are we still worse than either Memphis or Philly?…I don’t see it, but, someone must…
Is the idea of KG dead in the water?…How about Gasol or JO?…
I sense many Prozac moments being played out on this site and that’s nearly as depressing as our last game was to take…

The problem with this team isn’t lack of talent. When Jerry Sloan’s Jazz were decimated my injuries a few years ago, even the last scrub on the bench played the right way. They ran the offense, they were in the right place on defense, and they certainly didn’t collapse completely against a dinky high school zone. The Jazz remained a well-coached team. The same is true for the Hornets this year, who have lost their top three players but have remained an organized basketball team instead of an undisciplined rabble.

Injuries are no excuse for the slop we saw on Wednesday.

This team needs a new coach. After that, I don’t care what the hell they do. We’re just waiting for the overpaid dead wood (Ratliff, Szczerbiak) to be cleared out and for the inevitable trade demand by Pierce when he realizes he will never get a ring with this team and this coach.

See…can’t even say “realistically!” on this venue…Hah!

I know most fans are desirious of Greg Olden but the play with the most talent is Durant this kid has the game of Garnett and Amarie Stoudamire in one package, he’s tough and skillful and very young with a huge upside to his game. Olden would be my second option, he has limited offense and he’s a bit on the big size for his age, with that said I think his weight will be an issue for him as the years role on. And weight can upset the performance of any player. Durant can come into the league and average 20pts from the start and improve this teams rebounding and he can be a good help defender, not to mention he can run the floor better than most players in the league.
Kevin Durant is the man this team needs.

I don’t know if gambling is better than treading water and waiting until you’re sure about a player. I agree that at this point Ainge and Co should have a pretty good read on our young guys and what they can do. In my mind Green and Telfair are still question marks so trading them would be a gamble in the sense that they may turn into great players even though they’re not there yet. West, Gomes, Jefferson, Rondo and to a lesser extent Perk are all known quantities and are all keepers as far as I’m concerned.TA is a question mark only because of his injury and not his talent. he clearly is valueable to us if healthy but I wonder if he will ever be the same player. My guess would be no. As for Wally I would trade him IF Danny belives gerald is ready to take over that spot. I see no harm in keeping him as a shooter off the bench a la Scott Wedman. as Jeff says, a year from now, Wally’s trade value will increase. If you could parlay Wally and Telfair for a solid veteran front court player I would look hard at that. Whoever we draft is going to take a few years to develop and that to me is the rub when it comes to Paul Pierce. By the time we are ready to compete for a title Paul will be in his early- mid thirties. So part of this off season has to include a serious analysis by Danny as to whether it makes sense to trade Paul now while he still has a lot of value or hold onto him and wind up with a max contract guy who has little trade value. As much as I love Paul when I look at this team objectively I really believe that trading Paul makes the most sense for the long term success of this franchise. If Oden comes out this year and you need to trade Paul and our pick to get oden I would do it. heck I might even do that to get durant

well said jeff,
you summed up all my blather about the future into one nicely worded article.

i do disagree on one point (and if my comment is not lost in the thread i’m sure to take some heat) i with pierce and jefferson poised to become a feared duo we need players like delonte more then green.

like green del can kill double teams with his jumpshot, unlike green he can also create opportunities for other people, also unlike the pup he is a great court leader who demands effort from his teammates. his “role” has so many more lines then gerald’s and he is ready to contribute to a contender right now.

i’m not saying G$ is a bust, far from it i think he has a world of talent and a very long time to grow into it. but if we are planning on making the big dingle season turn around the smart move is to keep dell and use G$ to bring the talent that fills the gaps we have.

keep jeff, pierce, allen, del and rondo.

everyone else should be available for the right piece.

Rebirth of the franchise under Ainge? It looks stillborn to me.

Let me add that a stillborn child is what you get when you hire the wrong Doc to deliver the baby.

That’s fine……..

I’m still in Danny’s corner in all this and Doc’s somewhat…. Say what you want….

I still believe we are in fine shape going forward with this team. I stand my ground with Danny and his beliefs to this team

“Danny hasn’t made a "big” trade, but he has done a great job of collecting talent and assets."

Really? Last years his ‘collection of talent and assets’ was the 7th worst in the league. This year his ‘collection of talent and assets’ is 3rd worst in the league.

You can talk about all the potential in the world, but potential has never won a game.

The Celtics this year are the Bulls of four years ago, you couldn’t go read anything related to the Bulls where the fan base didn’t say ‘just wait till Curry and Chandler put it all together’. What happened? Krause got canned, they drafted Hinrich, Gordon and Deng dealt off Curry and Chandler while freeing up money to sign a big name FA.

I can’t fathom why people would watch the games they’re watching and just want the status quo to remain, unless of course you believe that the status quo delivers Oden or Durant, which statistically it won’t 54% of the time even if we’ve got the worst record in the league.

first, if you look at the roster when DA took over this team, it is night and day. when he got here we had maybe the least exciting talent (not necessarily the worst team) across the board of any team in the NBA. now we are loaded with exciting young talents that all seem dedicated to leaving it all on the floor.

and second, just about every player on the team has more value now than when DA acquired them and that list includes: Gomes, Big Al, GG, DWest, TA (preinjury), Rondo, Powe, Perk, Ray, ….even PP had more value because he is signed and has matured a ton.

add to that a top 5 pick this year, and i don’t see how you can’t only conclude that DA has done an outstanding job putting together this team thus far. granted now he needs to close the deal with his next few moves, but he has put us in prime position to jumo into the elite of the NBA.

FWIW, I think that the article is spot on. Danny has drafted well for his position in the draft but his FA and trade acquisitions have been mediocre to poor.

Dickau while a bust was an understandable move. He was playing well in New Orleans the season before and could run.

Scalabrine was a bad pickup as well for the length of his contract, but we all have to admit he is playing much worse now that he did in NJ.

The Antoine trade and the Bassy trade have been busts from a talent perspective. I group them because by getting Lafrentz, we had to ship him with out #7 pick out to get Bassy and Theo. Two very subpar trades, although if Bassy ever starts playing better this deal could become average.

The Wallyworld trade, for how bad Wally has been, was necessary. We had to get rid of the lockerroom cancer in Blount and Ricky was reported to have had some problems as well.

I am not saying anything people don’t already know but I believe this is pretty consistent with what Jeff said.

I would argue about the Dickau move because looking at it at the time, it wasn’t as horrible as people are making it out to be. I watched Dickau for 40 games the year before he got here, he could play. Hindsight is 20/20.

But otherwise it was a well done article.

I think Danny is fine. It’s all our opinion and speculation about his job at this point. Like I’ve said a million times, everyone wants Dwight Howard, KG, Lebron, etc, but no one wants to lose 60 games to be in a position to draft them. Danny has yet to have a very high pick in a strong draft. This is his opportunity. You can’t trade for guys that are going to make your team because other teams aren’t stupid. You have to draft the, period. I’m fairly certain this draft will give Danny the last laugh. In the last 5 drafts, the worst record has gotten a 1 or 2 pick 4 times..

“when he got here we had maybe the least exciting talent (not necessarily the worst team) across the board of any team in the NBA.”

Talent doesn’t win games. Those guys may not have been the most ‘talented’ but they knew how to play. The brigade we’ve got now doesn’t know how to beat a 2-3 zone, doesn’t play any type of solid position defense, half of them can’t run a simple offense.

“and second, just about every player on the team has more value now than when DA acquired them and that list includes: Gomes, Big Al, GG, DWest, TA (preinjury), Rondo, Powe, Perk, Ray, ….even PP had more value because he is signed and has matured a ton.”
 
No they don’t. You’re percieved value of them is higher than than it is. Ray and Powe viewed around the league are replacement level talents. There’s not a team in the league that would deal a second round pick for either one of them. Perk and Gomes have marginal value at best, you might get a second round pick and filler for them. West and Allen have way too many injury concerns for teams to give up anything of value for them. Not to mention they’re contracts are soon up and will need to be extended. Rondo, there’s some teams around the league that like him but he’s not going to get you anything better than the Cleveland pick Danny gave up to get him. Green might fetch you a mid-first rounder, he’s not going to get a star level player. Jefferson’s the only guy thats going to net a big level talent coming back and with the way he’s developing there’s no reason to deal him.

“and i don’t see how you can’t only conclude that DA has done an outstanding job putting together this team thus far.”

I’d say they’d watched games and stopped drinking spiked Kool-Aid. All the ‘talent’ in the world means nothing if you can’t beat anyone.

Good article Jeff and many good responses.

It is way to soon to think of replacing Danny. It took 20 years to create the mess he inherited and it will take more time to undo.

He may not be the best GM in the league, but please tell me who is available that will do better. I am willing to give the time to get this franchise back to the finals, not interested in one and done.

It is interesting the talk out of Oden’s camp about how he likes college and may stay another. I think that is Oden hedging his bets. If I am Oden I do not want to play in Memphis or Toranto or New Orleans and I would be willing to sit out a year to keep from getting stuck there. As big of a star as LaBron James is, how much bigger would he be if he played in Boston or Philadelphia or New York or Chicago? Huge. The problem is that the NBA system is stacked against a superstar player leaving the team he is drafted by. The team that drafts you can always offer you the most money and if you leave a small market to go to a big market you look like an ingrate leaving a city and fans who love you for the bright lights and big city.

If I am Greg Oden, I don’t want to get stuck playing in Memphis and spend my career like Kevin Garnett stuck in a small market playing on teams no one cares about. I really think that Oden might not come out if the wrong team wins the lottery. If Philadelphia or Boston or New Jersey of Chicago get the first pick, Oden is coming out.

Oden’s basketball IQ is too high for him to want to play for a coach like Doc Rivers. If I were Oden and Boston won the lottery, I would call the Celtics and tell them that I was pulling out of the draft and returning to school unless Rivers was fired. (Oden wouldn’t be allowed to have an agent at that point to perform this task).

Very good post, Jeff. I think JHTruth is right on. I’m for getting ping pong balls. Danny’s touch in the draft is good. I’ve already said my season tix money this year is down the drain. I don’t go to watch young guys lose. All I want before season ends is for Doc and this bunch to show they can close out, not one, but two 4th Qtrs in a row. I retract my opinnion that Perk has been a bust. He was only a 28-29th pick. I take back my support for Telfair. If you can’t get minutes on this team, you don’t have a bright future. I do still believe in Wally. Can someone explain the attraction of an expiring contract. Why would someone take Ratliff and pay him 10 million just because you won’t owe him $10 million the next year. This year’s $10 mil is not play money. My sons tell me that Oden is the real deal and so is Durant so let’s keep the eye on the prize. I never thought I’d say it…but c’mon guys, make it interesting but keep losing

 I think Danny has done a great job. You can’t FORCE other teams to make a trade that you want. Danny inherited many years of bad luck and bad management decisions. Danny has not had a high draft choice and has still acquired assets. Look at the last dozen years of dominant players, those that instantly make ANY team a winner, and see where they were drafted. LeBron, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe et al. The days of a Larry or Michael dropping down to a mid-range draft choiceis long gone. Sure a late first round pick or even a second round pick or unknown ‘alien’ can and will appear occasionally but NOBODY knew that or they would have
 drafted much earlier. Every team has a scouting staff and a GM and they all are very well paid. Name me one you’d like better then Danny. (And also list THEIR mistakes). I’m not qualified to judge Doc’s performance and I doubt most of the readers here are either! I’m sure Doc makes some decisions based upon long-range planning, not on “WE GOTTA WIN THIS ONE OR THE CELTICS BLOGGERS WILL FIRE ME!”

How can you say Danny has done a great job when the team on Ainge’s watch has a worse winning percentage than it had under Pitino?

Ainge had drafted well. Everything else he has done has turned to mud.

“Every team has a scouting staff and a GM and they all are very well paid. Name me one you’d like better then Danny.”

Bryan Colagelo
John Paxson
Bernie Bickerstaff
Mark Warktenstein
Danny Ferry
Joe Dumars
Carroll Dawson
Larry Bird
Mitch Kupcheck
Randy Pfund
Mike D’Antoni
R.C Buford
Kevin O’Connell
Ernie Grunfeld

That’s a good starting point.

Scotty, you forgot to add Jeff Petrie to your list.

“I know some will say to be patient and wait for all the kids to grow up and become everything we hope they will be. I think that is dreaming. The odds dictate that some of those guys are going to be busts, some are going to continue to struggle with injuries, and some of them will be good to great.”

-Thats Probably the smartest thing I have heard on this site. If something doesn’t happen soon, we will just be waitinf ro something that will never happen

IMO, the toughest thing for a GM to do is to acquire good players in the draft. Just look at the mess Pitino made of things. Ainge – whatever you may think of him – has done a great job in the draft. The problem is, the Celts, and probably most of us, aren’t willing to pay the price it takes to get the real franchise cornerstone players. We all saw how this board lit up after the other night’s disaster.

Look at the All-Star starters: most of them were top 4 or 5 draft picks. What would Cleveland have without Lebron? A mess. Instead, they’ve got a chance to win the East.

Look at how Red turned around the Celts in the late 70s and early 80s. Bird was picked a year early (as a #6 overall). McHale was a high pick, along with the trade of a high pick for Parrish. A trade helped make it all happen, but the key was they had the #1 overall pick to begin with.

For the Celts to get good, they have to get bad. Real bad. Or, get very fortunate in finding players like Al Jefferson. The Celts don’t have the advantage of Miami, Orlando or LA’s geography, New York’s appeal, nor a proximity to Las Vegas. So they’ve got to (generally speaking) build through the draft or trades. FA’s for the most part won’t want to come here. And to get the Tim Duncans, the Shaqs, the Dwayne Wades, the Lebrons, you have to be picking early. Instead, the Celts try to win with inferior talent. Which leads to a lot of 30-40 win seasons, which means you’re a borderline playoff team with no chance to be a contender, or you’re picking late in the lottery.

We haven’t been willing to pay the price thusfar. Maybe it makes me a bad fan, but I hope we are now. The smart thing is to shelve Pierce, and play all the young guys. It’s better for them long-term, and of course, it means we will lose a lot of games. Which means we’ll probably get a high pick. Here’s to losing.

“Scotty, you forgot to add Jeff Petrie to your list.”

And Donnie Nelson for that matter.

Couple others to consider would be Otis Smith (he hasn’t had enough time to judge a lot of his moves) and Larry Harris (still think Charlie V for TJ Ford was a hell of a move) and he did flip Blake for Boykins.

We already know which young players are keepers and which ones are busts.

Keepers
Jefferson
West
Green
Allen
Rondo

Busts
Perkins (even though he got an extension)
Gomes (great understanding of the game but limited physical and shooting skills)
Telfair

Who cares?
Powe
Ray

We also know that the only untradable young player is Jefferson, unless the player coming back is KG or Dwight Howard.

So what more does Danny need to know? He just needs to go out and do something intelligent based on the information he already has.

Ainge meeds to cash in on some of his “chips” right now while their value is high. When Pierce comes back, all of these guys will relegate back to their normal mediocrity as before. There is no reason he cannot come up with a decent package right now to obtain a guy like Corey Maggette to play alongside Pierce. When Pierce comes back, we will probably win enough games to not be a top 3 pick, and will be stuck looking at the likes of Marco Bellineli and Yi Jianglian. So why not get as much as you can right now for these scrubs that we have wasting space on our roster?! West, Green, Gomes, Perk should ALL be available in a package right now, and Jefferson should be available for the likes of a Gasol or Garnett or O’neal if those offers should pop up.

How do you guys knock Danny on the Walker trade. Antoine’s shooting percentage for 01 was 39.4% and for 02 it was 38.8. LaFrenz shot 46.6 in 01 and 51.8% in 02. Without mentioning anything else that stat alone was enough to make the trade. LaFrenz was a better 3pt shooter, better foul shooter (as a side note: Walker is averaging 36% at the foul line this year). Walker couldn’t make it Dallas and they hated him in Atlanta.

His salary with Miami this year is 7.7 Million and goes up to 10 mil per year over the next four years for a total of 45 Million plus. He’s a 41.6 career shooter as a PF! What a terrible move Danny made trading Walker for a better shooter. Give me a break.

As far as Scal goes he makes 2.7 million which goes up to 3.2 in four years and a total of 12 million. He shooting average is a whole 2% less than Walker but Scal’s career foul shooting average is 78.6% and Walker is like 66%. The only year Scal and Walker had similar minutes was Walker this year at 23.9 and ave. 4.2 rebounds and Scal in 04/05 ave 21.6 minutes and ave. 4.5 rebounds. they shoot about the same from the three point line. Scal has a lower Turn Over Ration. If you guys think that paying Walker 45 Million over the next 4 years is better than 12 million to Scal over the next four years, then all I can say is you are entitled to your opinion but I’m sure glad your not the GM of the Celtics.

I’m not a big fan of Doc’s so I can see criticizing him for that move but as a evaluator of college talent he is out standing. Maybe you’d like to go back to the previous GM: Wallace or maybe the one before him. They were great.

I really thought that this year was going to be good for us but injuries have really hurt us and you can’t blame Danny for that. I’m very satisfied with what Danny has done and I don’t see laying the blame at his feet as the answer. I know it hurts to see us lose but it’s not Danny’s fault.

Good article Jeff. The yins and the yangs are all there. Some great reads on the comments. I especially like Ancient Reds line “We’re too passionate about our team and want to win now instead of thinking what’s right.”

Brickowski’s right about Jerry Sloan — he pulled of a miracle 40-win season with no talent — but was that net positive for Utah, to miss the playoffs by a game? It wasn’t until the following year, when they sucked, that they ended up with Deron Williams via the draft, one of the best young PGs in the league after C. Paul. So sometimes you win by losing.

As far as Perk and Gomes being busts, that’s silly. Gomes is going to be a solid career role player, like a Corliss Williamson but better, and for a 2nd round pick no less. Perk’s still learning.

Ah, since when did we all convince ourselves that losing is the right thing to do? It probably is— now. But very few would have said that at the beginning of the year.

What is becoming clear is that the decision not to trade Pierce two or three years ago was wrong. We could have really sucked for a couple of years and gotten players like LeBron, Wade, Bosh or Chris Paul. Instead, we have to suck this year, and even with luck in the draft Pierce will be 32 or 33 before the team is in contention— and that assumes that his injury this year is an aberration instead of a sign of things to come.

Our team doesn’t suck bad enough to be even considered for the ODen sweepstakes.

I would beg, borrow, and steal in order to get Durant. He is going to be a bonafide star for many years.

We all know what is going to happen…they’ll lose a ton of games until Pierce comes back, and wind up with a pick between 5-10.

Lather, rinse…repeat.

I don’t believe Ainge has the spine to completely tank the season. People like him are forever optimists. Alot fo people on here are rooting for us to win. You have to have your head examined if you don’t think a top #1 or #2 is the only solution for this team.

How depressing.

okay liberman i will keep the faith , i just feel that we would start winning and teams like n.y. and seattle would start tanking outright then n.o. philly atl memphis charlotte and possibly milwaukee would just struggle along and start losing more as the legit playoff teams make sure they beat these teams down the stretch as the games get crucial.
i will keep the faith and hope for a top 2 though
i hope im wrong about n.y having a worse record than us when its over even though their 6 games up peace

Talent doesn’t win games. Those guys may not have been the most ‘talented’ but they knew how to play. The brigade we’ve got now doesn’t know how to beat a 2-3 zone, doesn’t play any type of solid position defense, half of them can’t run a simple offense.

“and second, just about every player on the team has more value now than when DA acquired them and that list includes: Gomes, Big Al, GG, DWest, TA (preinjury), Rondo, Powe, Perk, Ray, ….even PP had more value because he is signed and has matured a ton.”

No they don’t. You’re percieved value of them is higher than than it is. Ray and Powe viewed around the league are replacement level talents. There’s not a team in the league that would deal a second round pick for either one of them. Perk and Gomes have marginal value at best, you might get a second round pick and filler for them. West and Allen have way too many injury concerns for teams to give up anything of value for them. Not to mention they’re contracts are soon up and will need to be extended. Rondo, there’s some teams around the league that like him but he’s not going to get you anything better than the Cleveland pick Danny gave up to get him. Green might fetch you a mid-first rounder, he’s not going to get a star level player. Jefferson’s the only guy thats going to net a big level talent coming back and with the way he’s developing there’s no reason to deal him.

we’ll have to agree to disagree, i guess. IMO every guy DA drafted would go higher in each of their respective drafts if redone, and as for the value of GG, I would say that the Philly/Iverson interest is a good indication of what other teams think of his future.

this team is not a finished product, but i am very happy with the roster that DA has put together.

"How do you guys knock Danny on the Walker trade. Antoine’s shooting percentage for 01 was 39.4% and for 02 it was 38.8. LaFrenz shot 46.6 in 01 and 51.8% in 02. Without mentioning anything else that stat alone was enough to make the trade. LaFrenz was a better 3pt shooter, better foul shooter (as a side note: Walker is averaging 36% at the foul line this year). Walker couldn’t make it Dallas and they hated him in Atlanta.

His salary with Miami this year is 7.7 Million and goes up to 10 mil per year over the next four years for a total of 45 Million plus. He’s a 41.6 career shooter as a PF! What a terrible move Danny made trading Walker for a better shooter. Give me a break."

Just a disingenuous post all around. First, AW wasnâ€â"¢t on his current deal when Danny traded him the first time. He was on his previous contract, which only had two more years left to go. LaFrentz on the other hand had 6 years left on his contract at the time (which, along with his widely-known questionable knees made many feel at the time that he was untradeable- that is until Danny traded for him). Second, you speak of shooting % as if that is all that matters in valuing a player. If that was true, Tim Legler would be in the hall of fame. Sure, LaFrentz was (and is) a purer shooter than Antoine. He was (is) also a better shot blocker. However, Antoine just happened(s) to be better at every other aspect of the game, not to mention the fact that he had zero injury questions at the time of the trade, unlike LaFrentz.

There are numerous other factors in this trade worth debating (since so many other players/pick have been involved in either the initial trade or related subsequent trades), but the pure values of Walker vs. Lafrentz based on their abilities, health, & contracts is not one of them.

If we are not sure with Oden or Durant then i’d go after Gasol who is a sure thing anyways…the grizz would probably accept our first round pick if it ends up in the 5-8 range for Gasol.

If buy stinking the joint up we end up with a top5 pick and end up with a solid big man.So much the better add the fact that we are letting the young guy’s develop great.Send Doc and most of his coaching staff on there way (Personally i would keep Ray and Wahl).Add a PJ as your head coach.Find a way to move Scal. and Telfair and bring in a veteran PG (does not even have to start just give us a solid 20/25 mpg.)on and off the court.Add the fact that we will finally be through with Bakers contract plus Jackson,Grant, Pittsnoogle and Greene being off the cap will be a major plus torwards getting the salary cap under control.Get everyone healthy (Hopefully TA injury is not career ending).Add those pieces and get your house in order and we should take a giant step forward next season.

Great perspective and articulation Jeff. I am too ready for a winner. I , don’t want to be patient any longer than this year. However I would not jettison Danny or Doc. we have done that a lots over the last 20 years with no positive results. No Banners No championship. we have run off players coaches general mangers and owners and stil no results. thus we need to stick with whom we have a little longer. of course the players must be changed eespecially those who have not measured up to expectation. what we need is a consistant managerment team for a little longer to see it through. to chnage teams is to start over for another 20 years. I am not in the mind to do that. It take a little longer than most of want to admit to climb the mountain. so we should not Trade horses in the middle of the race to the top. Hopefully we get the missing player in the draft make a trade that will fill the “right Need”

My mancrush on Oden is deep, but A. No guarantee we get him OR the #1 pick. B. No guarantee he even declares next year. C. No guarantee he’ll even pan out. If he follows the arc of most young big men, he’ll need AT LEAST a couple of years of seasoning. But yeah, he does look good, even with an injured mitt. But remember, The Lottery is an appropriate term. Many play, but very few actually win. Ainge has been VERY good with picks. But it’s still a cr@pshoot.

Ainge has really got to decide who his core players are, and work from there. Sign a QUALITY free agent or two that compliments what he already has.

I love youth & promise as much (or more) than anyone. But Ainge has already collected a two truckloads of that. Now he needs to get some proven players who can help this team.

Ancient Red, I agree with what you say, but I’m not sure this summer is any different from any other for the C’s. From here till games begin next year we are trying to make this a better team. Part of this process has started with our younger players improving almost nitely. PP’s contract was extended. I won’t discuss the coach because we all know where we stand on that issue. For the record, I think Doc is doing a great job. No other coach in NBA history has had to hold a remedial basketball school for four players out of high school. From this point on we need to improve by adding a few players who can contribute right away. I agree with Ancient Red that as of now the pg position is lacking. As to the draft I just thing we do business as usual. Do the pre-draft work which Danny does diligently and then draft the best player available. If that player fills a positional need so much the better. If a good free agent comes available at a reasonable cost go for it. This is no different from any other actions that have gone on from here till opening day next year in the past 20 years. The only thing that IS different is that we have an ownership group, GM and coach who work well together and have realistic expectations. There are no guarantees in this business and I think the Celtics are doing a great job of bringing this team back while being fiscally responsible.

http://ledger.southofboston.com/articles/2007/01/26/sports/sports06.txt

This is a link to Mike Fine’s article in todays Patriot Ledger. It’s about Danny, his thoughts and his plans. We can write and make all the suggestions we want, but this is how Danny is approaching things from here on out. It’s no different, really, from what he’s done every year since he’s been here.

Let me preface this by saying that I havent seen Durant play and I’ve only seen Oden play a little bit. And when I did see Oden play he was without his right hand.

But isnt what Pau Gasol is now in the NBA what we are hoping Durant and Oden might become down the road?

And we’re not even close to being sure that we could get either guy.

In my opinion. I would quickly give away an unknown (our #1 pick) for a known (Pau Gasol an NBA all star).

I might even throw Gerald Green in the deal. If it would get it done. If we could keep Paul, Al, Rondo and add Gasol that would be a team that could win together for a few years. Even as Pierce got older the two young bigs would make things easier on him. We would probably still need a veteran PG but our Front court would certainly be championship level.

I know hes young and I could be dead wrong but I dont really see a special player in Gerald Green. Hes a special athlete. But I don’t see the instincts there. On either end of the floor. I would give him to Memphis if it meant getting Gasol.

I’ll take a known great player (especially a 7 footer) over potential any day.

Forgetting whether the ping pong balls favor us or not (they won’t), what evidence is there that Oden or Durant will be coming out after their freshman year?

I think Oden and Durant are supposed to have more of an effect on the game than Gasol. That being said, I would love to have Gasol but at what price? It would take more than our #1 and Theo.

I fail to see exactly how Danny has amassed “assets” and “talent”— in fact, I am not even really sure what those terms mean if the team isnt winning. Dont we mercilessly make fun of Isiah for doing basically the same thing (albeit with slightly older players and a bloated payroll?). To me the definition of “talent” is tied inextricably to W’s and L’s. And until we see more of those, I dont have any faith in Danny’s so-called plan. If I were the owner, I would fire him and go with someone else and if some Theo-type ends up winning with Danny’s talent (as Theo did with Duquette’s), fine, I could care less— 4 years is enough time to get out of the cellar of the worst conference in the history of sports. I am at a loss to understand what WOULD qualify him to be canned at this point. The only excuse is the injury to Pierce— but if that injury hadnt occurred, does anyone think we’d be .500 or better now? No, and we are in the worst division of the worst conference in pro sports history. That said, lets grab a win tonight— these guys really need one.

This is all very nice wishful thinking. I believe this franchise is doomed to no more than mediocrity for the forseeable future. We’re either too injury-prone, too cap-heavy or too coach-addled (and I might add too trigger-happy at GM) to present a definable “arc” of progress or stability.
No matter how you slice it, we’ve sucked since Danny took over (but for that capricious playoff “run” after trading for Twan, for whatever reason) and continue to suck. We’ve gotten worse. Injuries aside this season, we would’ve still been a 35-win team. Anyone really think we have the “assets” to trade and/or that a lottery pick will deliver us to some kind of promised land? I don’t.
Right now we have Paul Pierce, Big Al and a bunch of over-paid or injury-prone or limited-talent or role-player parts. That’s it, really. You can love West’s hustle all you like, or Perkins’ “presence” or Green’s “upside” or Rondo’s “handle.” It will never be enough, lottery or not.
We’ve got too far to go and have too bad a history of move-making by Danny and too horrible a coaching job by Doc to make us title contenders in the near future.
But it’s nice to wish we could.

I just keep thinking that Oden’s numbers, #50 (high school) and #20 (college) are available if we get to draft him!

yeah,I know. I’ll keep dreaming.