Pitchforks and Point Guards

Doc is good at attracting free agents? Since when? I guess if you count Scal…. Where were the GOOD free agents the last 3 years? From what I remember, KG said he came here because of PP and RA. I don’t remember him mentioning Doc. Only Ray Allen mentioned Doc as a good coach and he was traded here, not signed as a free agent.

Yur article was excellEnt. I want to clear up your history though. You left out Tiny Archibald (who was a pure point guard and a prolific scorer. Man, ,could he shoot.) Sam Jones never played point guard in his life. Trust me. Larry Siegfried, who helped out K.C., did. Also, let us not forget one of my favorites from one of my favorite teams, the ’69 champions, Emmett Bryant. By the way, he was also a pure point with good defense and fundamentals. Moving along here. Jo Jo also never played point a hell of a loit. They had Chaney, Paul Westphall, and then they traded for Charlie Scott. Jo Jo, like Ainge, only saw action in a pinch. Shishting subbed for DJ much more than Ainge.

Outstanding article Gant. You have already stirred up at least one Doc-hater I see. You have made many of the points I have been making, in a clear, thought-out way, backed up by supporting details. There is always going to be the outspoken critics of Doc, no matter how convincing the arguments, that is purely on an emotional level as far as I am concerned. Interesting that many of Doc’s strengths you cite are eerily familiar to the positives of another less-criticized, except by a loud vocal minority, chief of a local team, Doc’s buddy Francona. If the Celts win at a similar clip to the Sox, many of the criticisms will fall by the wayside. But just as with Terry, winning a World Series, making the playoffs in 3 out of the 4 seasons he has managed, guiding the team to the best overall record in all of baseball this year, there are always going to be those that don’t like him. I think the same applies to Doc.

i love rondo as well. i do not love doc. all your points are valid, especially that he is a decent man and a good press communicator, but he is not in the same league as a bellichek or even francona tho a lot closer to francona. the variable not noted is the meanness( maybe that’s too strong a word ). maybe toughness that auerbach had, the grit the determination, the psychology of who to get on and who to lay off of- and the ability to simply say it like it is without the candy coat.

Gant are you sure you aren’t related to Doc?

Agree with Bank he’s not the draw of FA it’s the GAP.

Don’t forget all the freaking games that he couldn’t coach this team in the final minutes and many a times was left without T.O.’s.

I’ll never forget the Philly game when he neglected to have his players foul Kyle Korver with less than 3 seconds to go and sent him to the foul line. Instead he canned a 3 pointer and tied the game.

Sorry he’s a nice guy who should be doing games on TNT.

BANKSHOT: From what I remember, KG said he came here because of PP and RA. I don’t remember him mentioning Doc.

He actually mentioned Doc several times in the press conference. A lot of players like Doc. Gary Payton loved him.

Maybe he mentioned Doc, but not as the reason he agreed to come to the Celtics. Check out his interview again.

Doc still has A LOT to prove to me before I will climb out on that limb with you, Gant.

Good piece though, certainly got me thinking.

What a superb analysis! Despite being a terrific piece of journalism there are some points of emphasis that should be noted. We have the horses, what remains to be seen, however, is whether we have the RIGHT pieces. Few successful teams have “exactly” the right pieces yet somehow attain success.. They do so because the coaching was equal to the task of emphsizing a team’s strengths while masking its’ weaknesses.

In other words, before we annoit the players, let’s not forget that the TEAM concept does include ALL the contributing elements. A successful season won’t be because the players did it all alone. Coaching can be equally difficult when a team struggles with injuries and contends with balance issues.

Regardless, Tom Thibodeau has some interesting pieces to work with and we have significantly improved the team’s talent and experience level. Based on preliminary reports coming out of Rome, our bench seems ready and able to do their part. Will Doc surprise us as well?

Good Stuff! Thanks for the insight and i hope you’re right.

But, how does 3-5 preseason play in R Allen’s goal to put fear in the opponent when the play the C’s? Are you just lowering our expectations so we’ll take it easy on Doc?

Kick Butt, and win win win…no excuses!

Gant….VERY WELL done. I too give Doc the benefit of the doubt (though maybe not as much as you. I do recall the blown end-of-game plays). I think he did a great job keeping morale high last year. I do not think that Red Auerbach could do today what he did then. Toward the end Red was touting Joe Forte, inotherwords, Red was just another mortal. It isn’t fair to compare Doc to Red. It is fair to compare him to his contemporaries and my take away is that it is a players league. The best coaches got the players. It’s great that all coaches aren’t the same, but in the end they all get measured by the same thing – wins. We’ll know by Jan whether Doc’s the right man. I also think he is.

Gant…solid post….thank you for not revealing the location of our underground meetings…you bring up some good points but, when all is said and done, I have a feeling that this is truly a make or break year for Doc..

You can’t compare Doc and Red; two completely different eras in basketball.

If you look at the coaching job Rivers did last year from a teaching perspective, then his moves make more sense. Last year was about teaching the kids to play but it was also figuring out who to keep. Doc did win coach of the year once. Unlike say Phil Jackson, Doc has not had the two best players in the league on his team the whole time. He’s had Pierce and a lot of youth. The year they had Walker and Payton, they made the playoffs. And that’s not The Glove, but an older Gary Payton. Doc was a point guard, so he has a cerebral understanding of the game. Let’s see how this year goes. It will be obvious pretty quickly if his coaching, or lack there of, is getting in the way of this squad winning.

Very well put and entertainingly written. I’m with you in believing that Doc has a lot of great proven qualities. You offered some very good responses to the qualities so frequently criticized.

As you say, who knows how this will all work out until it does. Given the myriad of potentially unforeseen and often uncontrollable circumstances that occur in the course of a season, let’s hope it all adds up to success for the team under Doc’s coaching and leadership.

Ha ha- Fastbreak. I would NEVER reveal that secret location- even to Jack Bauer. I have enough pitchfork scars as it is.

gustusias- Tiny completely slipped my mind. I’ve already run laps for that as penance.

Thanks to everyone for reading my stuff, to Jeff for giving me the opportunity, and to Bob Day for answering my dumb questions.

As far as Doc- I don’t think the issue is as important as before- becuae either he’ll win now and everyone will be happy, or he’ll be replaced.

I wanted to get this one in before the first game just in case I was right. Ha ha hah!

Extra! Extra! “Ubuntu hits stateside!”
Nice post and some interesting delineations and clarifications thereafter…I was just sharpening’, err, brushing my teeth in anticipation…We’re almost there.
We’ll soon see how the kind doctor fares with talent tried and true…

Grant, not only does Doc know Celtic history, he set it with an 18 game losing streak. But Doc must know his stuff – he translated it into a contract extention.

our weak spots on this team are obvious: point guard and center. Based on 30 years of following the Celtics it’s been my expereince that when you go into a season with question marks those question marks usually wind up being the problems. We are HOPING that Rondo can do the job and that a troika of Perk, Pollard and Esteban can hold down the pivot but the reality is that at 2 of the 5 starting spots we are playing guys who are bench players on a good team. So I’m still optimistic but I’m not drinking the kool aid. we will be better than last year. Heck, we might turn out to be great but I think we are a year away from making a serious run a t a title—- and that’s not such a bad thing

Good post. I’m willing to give Doc a chance this year. I’ve gone through stretches where I disliked him, but he does have his positives. This year will be the true test for him. He has his vets. No more excuses.

I don’t believe Doc’s Cs ever had to defend the Stockton/Malone pick and roll……mercifully.

I just pray that Doc takes the 1986 K.C. Jones approach and just let them play. I cannot disagree more with Gant that Doc is a good coach. He cannot set up a defensive scheme. Thank god, they signed Thibideau as a defensive assistant coach. Any professional coach who sets up a scheme that gives away baseline is a recipe for disaster. His offensive schemes are horrible as well. The center high post never works. I do not want to give him a chance. I don’t think he deserves a chance. His TNT jacket will be waiting for him.

1 more day, GO CELTICS !!!

Great post, Gant! I have never claimed Doc was a phenomenal coach; but the DMGS claims that he is woeful. I thank you for pointing out why that designation was unfounded. Now, if Doc fails with the current talent, then the DMGS will have a case. But the rosters we’ve fielded for the past three years were not built for winning, no matter who the coach was. Doc did what he was asked to do.

As a member of the “Wyc Is Cheap Squadron”. I’d just like to mention we disbanded because our job was done. We all know Wyc reads this blog. Our legions grew in numbers until we forced Wyc to change course. Well thats the spin we put on it at our disbandment party.

Most of your reasons for liking Doc have little to do with winning. I agree that Doc is a nice guy, but he has given little evidence that he knows how to win games.
This year, he’s going to win many by default, kind of like Terry Francona. That’s fine by me, but let’s not confuse that with being a good coach.

Gant, thanks for going to Doc’s defense. Sure, if the wins don’t come, he’ll certainly be bounced. But let’s see how it goes. I’m definitely a lot more relaxed with Thibodeau around.

I’m definitely more relaxed that Jefferson, Gomes, West, Telfair and Gerald Green are not defending our opponents. Paul Westhead could coach Garnett, Posey and Rondo in their place and represent massive defensive upgrades.

I wish Rivers would revere Celtic history by letting one of the Celtic legends take his place.

 Coaching? Hey, I could have coached the Bird, McHale, Parish, Ainge, DJ teams. Most games were over by the end of the third quarter, leaving the coaching decision of “Hmmm where is the best steakhouse in this town that will still be open?”

IF (a BIG IF) the talent IS able to mesh, Doc may also be in the position of watching the 2nd and third teams playing the fourth quarter.

Good article def made some valid points. People get on his rotation habits but he hasnt exactly had a bunch of people that are worth rotating. This year rotating guys like House, Scal, Powe, Posey, Tony Allen will work out, maybe even the rooks but I dont believe they should or will see much time.

I not seen all the young guys improve. What about Bassy or Banks they did not get better. Clifford Ray seems to the big factor in the bigs improving. I am sorry but I think your article is incredulous about the young players improving. Doc even took half a season to figure Rondo was the real deal and not Sebastian.

That being said, I like Doc as a person. I hope he does well as I am a Celtic fan and he is our coach so I will not be rooting on him to fail.

a very very insightful post Gant. you are dead on target. The pitch fork crowd have Illogical raised their forks again. I am pulling for Doc. this is his year and team to do his thing- win a championship.

I like Doc. And I think its primarily the players that win the game, regardless of what play is called. I think a key for this season is how well the three stars can play together. Doc sets up the background environment. And I think he is doing a very good job of setting the table, such that the 3 stars, can, if they want to, make it happen.

For all those who say “even an idiot could coach _” name for me five “great” NBA coaches who did not also coach the very best NBA talent. Funny how that works.

One other comment: DA, and the 3 Stars all want a title, and would not sit by if they thought Doc was the problem. I have not heard anything from inside the team or even from Doc’s former players suggesting that he is a detriment.

Great job Gant. I’ve been a Doc supporter from the start and don’t think he’s really had a chance to be fairly evaluated, especially when you talk about stuff like W’s-L’s and poor defense etc. I’ve said over and over again that until now Doc has NOT been a coach, but a teacher of remedial basketball to too many players that needed it. With this team we will finally have the chance to judge him fairly. I’m most optimistic that he will succeed, but we need to put the emphasis on the whole team, including management. All have contributed and need to keep contributing to making this team a winner. It’s on all of them, not just Doc or P2 or Danny. As they say, the word for the year is “Ubunto”

With so many new faces 11 out 17 are new players. A new defensive coach it will take a few months to know what we have here. Defense is the key to winning we know we have the offense. Doc is good at communication and organizing and he has 3 coaches to bounce ideas off of along with Danny. So I think everything will be OK for the regular season I am more concerned about Garnett playing to many minutes at Center with Pollard down with ankle problems already and only one other Center guaranteed for a contract Perk. When the Celtics won in 1986 they had Parrish, Walton, PF/C McHale and Kite for centers can we please get another Center to learn the Celtic system.

Ha! Great job, Gant.

I like your ‘chronicle’ of the Doc Haters society. Very amusing. lol.

As you mentioned, those other ‘societies’ have died recently.

The question is…what will it take to bury this society as well?

Eastern Finals? or less? Or is it about how they get there as some have mentioned?

Again, nice read.

Thanks,
T

great points but im still not sure on doc one way or the other (which shows patience because he really HASNT proven to be a good coach over the last 3 years, excuses or no excuses. I’ve watched nearly every game while he’s been coach, and its the truth.)

Also, you forgot my man Tiny Archibald!!!!

But yeah I agree on the pg thing too, look at the lakers with fisher, the bulls with paxson, the celts you mentioned, etc etc…. Eddie House could easily play the PG role that Damon Jones did for the 59 win near-champion heat in shaqs first year there. He could play that bring the ball up/get the ball to the stars and playmakers/make a few plays/try on defense/and hit your open shots role easily. And the team would be very successful that way, but as the backup pg that is even MUCH better because Rondo IS a good pure-pg, just a young one that we know about and most dont nationally.

parrish,walton, pf/c mchale, and kite

we should have the same number if batista hangs on right? (perk, pollard, pf/c garnett, and batista)

and you are ABSOLUTELY right that the preseason wins and losses DO NOT MATTER AT ALL.

This team should be focused on getting on the same page, getting used to their roles, getting the rotation clearer, and STAYING HEALTHY above all else.

Winning and losing DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL until november 2nd, just get everything ready for then, that is the goal.

wildblue that is bs, that was because Red was OLD by then, not for any other reason than that.

what crap, you must not have watched him play the league for suckers for about 30 years and totally dominate while getting his team to overachieve and getting the most from his players. RED WAS THE GREATEST GM/COACH EVER and would be RIGHT NOW just the same. Put 40 year old red in any organizations front office and youll have a champion within 3 years.

Eric Weiss (a.k.a. Puff Piece), is that you?

First up, I miss “Only 10 Things”.

Secondly, great read as always and well argued.

Question. Does the coach make the team or does the team make the coach?

I’m a firm believer that you need the raw materials to get the job done. As Gant and a few others have said, Doc has now officially run out of excuses, unless injuries really play a part in the coming season.

The good news from everyone’s perspective, Doc’s future is now.

Finally, thanks Gant for joining Celtics Blog. I look forward to your future posts.

Go the Green !!!!

Cheers

Aussie

Aussie Celtic!

only10things.blogspot still exists. I just use it as an archive after the articles have run their course here and on the realgm forum. I put the articles there about 3 days after they run here.

As far as the “10 things” format. That will return. This I swear.
In the late offseason it’s hard enough to come up with only2things. But now that we’re underway, the ten things layout will be back soon.

As far as the chicken or egg, coach/team question: the answer to the first one is: egg, and to the second: both.