Understanding Our Options
by BillfromBoston on Feb 8, 2007 10:00 AM EST
in Boston Celtics Articles
Email
PrintTaking Stock in What’s In Hand
One of the main issues that Celtics fans have gotten drawn into this season is argument about the potential of our current players. The constituency of the fan base has become more polar in their opinions than a political debate. One group defends the virtues and potential of the team’s young players while the other side aims to expose them for their weaknesses.
There is no questioning the current record of the team and it’s indisputable that the current players are not good enough at the moment to win in this league. However, this season has also proven that this team has some young players who are on the upswing developmentally. So, the real argument of importance is "which of these guys can play?" The final level of growth for these players has yet to be determined, but if the plan is to build a team with Pierce as the centerpiece, there are timetables involved that just don’t allow for an open-ended level of patience with that development.
It's clear that Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Tony Allen, and Delonte West have separated themselves and shown that they can be consistent, quality NBA players that any team could plug into their rotation. This means that the team has four young players who are beyond potential and have arrived at an actual value, whatever level of value may be. Without pigeon-holing them into roles or placing mantels of expectation on them beyond what they’ve shown, the team can move forward and at least count on these four to be productive and reliable when building offensive and defensive schemes that incorporate their skill sets.
These four players may not have the most potential of all the team’s young assets, though Jefferson is widely considered to be in that category, but they are the most “game-ready.†It should also be noted that these four all have complementary skills, play different positions, and will be affordable when they come up for contract renewals. Jefferson is the only one amongst the four that stands to get a deal over 8 million annually. Gomes and West are more than likely mid-level players or below, while Allen’s injury probably will limit his earnings potential further.
These aren’t the type of factors that most fans want to focus on, but building a winning team starts with building chemistry and having complementary players who bring something to the table. These four have shown that if nothing else, they can be those types of players.
Taking that into consideration, one must then move into the realm of additional asset evaluation and the return that can be expected or sought from them. The draft pick this season will be the primary asset if the team retains the core youth that are furthest ahead developmentally. The value of this pick will be maximized once the lottery order is established and teams begin to turn their focus solely to scouting. Once the NBA season finishes General Managers begin to become fixated on the concepts of potential and the lure of the unknown, which is an advantage for a Celtics team that is basically attempting to sell those concepts as their currency.
Gerald Green and Rajon Rondo are the other two principle commodities the Celtics have to offer. Both are highly regarded by other organizations as young talents, but neither has displayed the type of consistent production the aforementioned four have. Both of these players may very well be high-end talents in the long run, but if this team is set on building around Pierce and committing to a core these players may serve that strategy better as assets.
Whether or not one wants to move the longer-term assets (Green, Rondo) or one or more of the shorter-term assets (Jefferson, etc) depends on return and direction. But all these players CAN be moved to upgrade the team's stability as it pertains to building around Pierce and making a highly competitive playoff team. The only question is which players will be moved and for what. The problem over the past two seasons hasn’t been whether or not other clubs value our youth, but it has been the discrepancy in valuation between those clubs and Danny Ainge that has prevented a significant move.
To Build Around Pierce Ainge Must Accept Less
For the past two seasons Ainge has held out for a perennial All Star/HoF caliber player as a return for the young players he has collected. But opposing teams aren’t going to easily be persuaded into giving up a franchise cornerstone in return for players who haven’t displayed any level of consistency. Everyone around the league is aware of the raw talent inherent in most young and unproven players, but there is no urgency to acquire these types of players in return for franchise caliber talent.
Only the rarest of circumstances even make these types of players available. When these players come on the market a General Manager’s career livelihood rests on obtaining the soundest value in return. Speculation into raw talent is essentially a gamble, tantalizing but not pragmatic.
Paul Pierce's recent statements to the media about his desire for veterans and his current age stipulate that Ainge should take one last bid at that high-end market: Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, and Jermaine O’neal are all worth pursuing certainly. Shawn Marion, Ray Allen or any other players that may come onto the market are also viable to inquire about. But after that, there is another tier of players: Mike Bibby, Brad Miller, Rashard Lewis, Jamal Magloire; these players are well within the "price range" of our available assets while still retaining a youthful core, but they’ll come at a price as well.
This is the direction that Ainge is going to have to move toward if he hopes fulfill Pierce’s needs and put a competitive playoff team on the court. There are feasible combinations available, quality lower-end veterans that teams will trade for the Celtics talent. But, they’re price isn’t going to be cheap. Coming to terms with this reality is something that Celtics fans and management must do to move forward going into next season.
Ainge probably could have had Allen Iverson, and he could most likely land Gasol as well. But he hasn't been willing to move four or five young assets in exchange for one, which is what any team is going to demand for that caliber of player because the young talent hasn't shown itself to the level that say Chicago's has.
With Pierce turning 30 next year, Ainge will have to re-calibrate his approach to the market. One last bid for the top-tier players is justifiable, but then a look toward the next tier must be done. He will get a lesser player in return, but he'll be able to do so without giving up the volume of assets he was reluctant to part with in the higher end scenario.
We may all want KG, but settling for a Bibby and a Magloire at the end of the day may be best if we want to keep Jefferson, Gomes, and West. Bibby could easily cost Ainge Rajon Rondo-which is something the constituency of this board is loathe to do-but if that's the cost of keeping the most game-ready players around Pierce, that is what the plan will have to adjust for.
The point is that the team situation will remain liquid, and always will be as long as there are quality assets, something Ainge has been adept at acquiring. If the team doesn't bring in a "superstar" to go with Pierce the team won't be "instant championship contenders" but they can easily move into the range of playoff contenders by taking some stable veterans who are at least starting caliber players. Cleveland, Toronto, Washington have role-playing veterans that surround their star players and that defines those three teams. Only Washington has more than one star amongst the three. Team’s that aren't true championship contenders, but are still in the process of building off of their playoff experience.
It is paramount to remember that a trade involving any of the youth isn’t an end-game proposition. It’s inevitable that good portions of these players aren’t going to manifest into a finished product while in Celtics green. Moving forward from this offseason, the Celtics will have more picks in which to acquire more young players. Not a single contributing young player on this team has been taken earlier than pick 15 and with Minnesota’s first round selection in hand, there is sure to be a pick in the future that will hold some value as well. There will be chances to replenish the roster or make additional moves with which to continue the construction project.
The team has been looking for the "home run", a phrase that Ainge used in the past which has set the tone for many fan's expectations. But building a championship team is typically a matter of base hits, not home runs. This team may not have the time or resources to touch all the bases, but they can certainly hit a double and continue to build toward driving things home.
81 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Mike Bibby—don’t want him. Neither should we even sniff at Magloire. Brad Miller or Rashard Lewis would be better options.
by jarobiso on Feb 8, 2007 12:11 PM EST reply actions
It is going to take more than one move. The only way to become an instant contender is to hope Gasol does not get traded at the deadline. This would allow us to get the second overall pick (Durant) and still make a run at Gasol. If you can give up Theo, the pick from Minny, Jefferson and Green you may be able to get Gasol. That would give us a starting five of Rondo, West (Allen if he’s healthy), Pierce, Durant and Gasol with Gomes, Perk and Wally coming off the bench. We may need a little luck but I think that is a real possibility. The key is that we need to make a move while keeping the second pick.
by Stuck in Philly on Feb 8, 2007 12:29 PM EST reply actions
I’d definitely consider Bibby or Lewis. Don’t want Magloire, and I think Miller’s had his best years already. We need a young veteran, and big men age quicker than smaller guys.
by celtfan 3.0 on Feb 8, 2007 12:38 PM EST reply actions
EricW, I think your baseball metaphor directs our thoughts into the wrong box. We need to think inside a different box and focus on team needs, not on bringing in players willy nilly because they happen to average a certain number of points or rebounds and can therefore be classified as “home runs” “triples” or “doubles.” The Celtics are not playing in a fantasy league, and players like Brad Miller and Mike Bibby are the last thing this team needs.
The Celtics need at least two guys who can defend: one on the wing, another in the paint. Specifically they need a tall, quick forward who can defend the other team’s best frontcourt scorer, a guy like Marion, Diaw, Kirilenko, Iguodala, Deng or Artest.
Secondly they need a big, athletic power forward. If this year has shown anything, it has shown that Al Jefferson is an undersized center, not a power forward. He does not defend well enough on the perimeter to be a power forward. Think Zelmo Beatty. Another thing this year has shown is that Perkins is at best a career backup. Don’t blame the planar fasciitis for the fact that he has only one offensive move. The Celtics therefore need a banger like Wilcox or Boozer to put next to Jefferson. A corollary is that if the Celtics do manage to land Oden in the draft, Jefferson may become expendible.
The point guard position is not the problem on this team. Rondo is making rookie mistakes, but he thinks the right thoughts, and West is solid. West is NOT a shooting guard. He is a point guard. You can argue which one should start and which one ought to be the backup, but a Rondo-West backcourt is simply too small. Play one or the other with Tony Allen, Pierce or Gerald Green as the sg.
And finally, if the baseball metaphor is appropriate, the biggest home run this team could hit would be to get rid of Szczerbiak and his contract. Even Bill Russell in his prime could not make up for all of Szczerbiak’s defensive lapses. They try to hide him in a zone, but even that doesn’t work.
Okay, I agree, “building a championship team is typically a matter of base hits, not home runs.” However, there weren’t many championship teams that were built without any home runs.
The way I figure it, we’ve had some luck at getting men on with base hits. But to win at this game, we need a home run hitter. And to get one, like it or not, our only real hope rests with ping pong balls.
We would be better off getting a second tier big man to play with Jefferson. Gomes would probably be the guy to go in this scenerio, but we do need size. PF is the area that is in biggest need to be addressed, we have role players there but not a starting caliber player that fulfills the total need.
As far as four players separating from the pack: well the pack bites the big one, so that’s not saying much. Echo Brick, the fact that Al J is now a double-double player means nothing. Does he help you win games? Obviously not. A loser’s mentality has taken hold.
A D-League team should be able to get hot enough one night to catch some team napping and put up a W. Sixteen in a bleeping row in mind-blowing. There is absolutely nobody on this roster that cannot, nay, should not be traded.
The other huge issue is the Pierce conundrum, and we all know what that is. Pierce is nearing 30 and they can’t seem to put enough assets around him to do anything more than barely scrape into the playoffs. Should he be traded for the right package?
Frankly, I think the answer is yes, much as I love his offensive game and his toughness on the glass. His value is starting to decline.
But I also that that it is barely worth discussing so long as Grousbeck is running things on the business side. Pierce has too much value as a marketing icon, and will remain a Celtic as long as he wants to be.
Therefore, barring a miracle (e.g they get Greg Oden and he really does turn out to be the next Bill Russell) I see at least 5-6 more years of bad or mediocre teams unless Pierce either demands a trade or decides to retire. At that point the Celtics will have to face realities, just as the Sixers did with Iverson. But they’ll keep their heads in the sand until then.
Take a look at what one San Antonio reporter thinks of Pierce’s comments about trading away our pick…
by Cant Teach Height on Feb 8, 2007 1:18 PM EST reply actions
Eric,
Very well put, I agree with you 95%.
Our young guys should all be Sophmores or Juniors in college; imagine that and they are playing for our Boston Celtics. Talk about a crash course!
I don’t get it sometimes because developing talent takes time, time that us fans don’t want to talk about. We want a winner now, sorry as I’ve stated before a championship driven team not a one year wonder. It takes time and has Danny made mistakes, yes the biggest being once he arrived here trading Walker to Dallas for Raf. Danny was too quick to pull the trigger and should have waited for a better deal.
Other than that trade, his draft picks have been right on the money and patience is surely needed to develop these kids.
The Biggest test is next season, with a healthy Paul and some of the youths growing up, and if we have a Durant or Oden on our team.
There is nothing wrong with our current team, and this is not drinking the Kool-aid, it’s been realistic that having Paul on the court changes everything for this group and also adding Oden or Durant does as well. Wally if he is still around can be used as your 6th or 7th man off the bench.
Ratliff is either traded or released; the later saving money to go after a quality free agent.
I still think that Bibby would add more to this team come next year. I don’t see KG or JO being traded as well.
Well done Eric… I very good read
Siggy said:
“Echo Brick, the fact that Al J is now a double-double player means nothing. Does he help you win games? Obviously not. A loser’s mentality has taken hold.”
Oh I don’t think Al is a loser. In fact, it’s when he goes to the bench with those two fouls that they get into trouble. Then they have to put in Scalabrine or go small, and they start giving up points in bushels without replacing Al’s scoring.
But Al is too good to be a backup, and that’s why he becomes expendible if the Celtics get Oden, although maybe you can turn Oden into a power forward, as the Spurs did with Duncan.
by the way, I’m all in favor of dealing some future picks – sure, next year’s class might be good, but I’m tired of waiting for next year and next year, etc. - I’ll take a shot at Oden/Durant and after that, we’ve got enough youth for a long time. Deal future picks to get current talent and to keep some of our “overvalued” youth a little longer.
Don’t agree with his talent assessment. Is he the one who traded the guy who couldnt play point and wound up a allstar in Detroit. Is he the one who traded another guy who couldnt play point and wound up an allstar in Atlanta? RR is WAY ahead of where those two were when they were here. Yes, we need a bruiser/rebounder. Does he have to be tall? How tall was Barkley? In this upcoming draft, even if the ping-pongs prove unfriendly we will be able to get a good brute/bounder. Lots of them out there.
by Wilt on Feb 8, 2007 1:49 PM EST reply actions
Not there is any need to pile on hard realizations about this team, but I think it’s only fair to assume (as disappointing as it is) that Tony Allen cannot be counted on to return to anything approaching what he showed before his devastating knee injury. He tore his knee apart in about the most complete way possible. For a player who already had serious knee issues and whose game depends on his speed and explosive jumping ability, we have to consider it a long shot for him to ever return to form. Regardless, with the expected recovery time it won’t happen next season and he’s no longer a tradeable asset – nor one of our established “rotation players.”
by smiggity on Feb 8, 2007 1:56 PM EST reply actions
I don’t think Allen’s injury is nearly that serious. I base that on the fact that they did the surgery immediately. Usually they wait for the trauma to subside. I expect Allen to come back 100% unless he blows off his rehab. And he won’t do that, because he has millions of dollars of future income at stake.
Barring major personnel moves, I expect Allen to be the team’s starting sg next year.
Siggy said:
"As far as four players separating from the pack: well the pack bites the big one, so that’s not saying much. Echo Brick, the fact that Al J is now a double-double player means nothing. Does he help you win games? Obviously not. A loser’s mentality has taken hold.
A D-League team should be able to get hot enough one night to catch some team napping and put up a W. Sixteen in a bleeping row in mind-blowing. There is absolutely nobody on this roster that cannot, nay, should not be traded."
Agreed. The “pack” is not exactly lighting up the charts, are they? I’ve said this many times before, once Pierce comes back, a lot of these guys are going to go back to putting up minimal numbers, thus the reason that NONE of them should be untouchable for a trade by the deadline. If Ainge can get us Rashard Lewis Or Mike Bibby, go for it. But if Gasol can be had for the AJ/Green package, you have to do it. Jefferson will be a 10 and 5 guy if still on this team when Pierce returns. And those numbers would be easily replaced in this draft.
They have to get rid of Doc before they shake up the team again. There’s no point in trying to get new talent here just to have Doc ruin it. I can just picture it now: we pick up Bibby and Doc promptly has Perk try to lob him a pass from the high post under the basket.
Went to the game last night and the only consolation afterwords was the thought that he has to resign if this keeps going. Anyone else compulsively checking the news in the hopes of finding that headline?
It’s not entirely Doc’s fault. Miami was toying with the Celts, it wasn’t close, and that’s because we don’t have enough talent right now. The problem is seeing this team make the same basic mistakes night in and night out. That has to stop first. Let’s see these guys get some experience with proper coaching before we shake up the roster again. If we have to shake up the roster again (after our #1 or #2 pick, please God!) then it’s time for Danny to go too.
Brick, couldn’t agree more with your home run comment concerning Zoolander. Wow, that’s a ton of salary tied up in a no d shooter, who could be on the verge of having chronic health issues. Zoey’s contract is a major impediment to this team moving forward and getting rid of it could prove to be a monumental task (at the cost of some of the assets being suggested to uprade the team). I also agree with your Pierce assessment. Yes, I think he should be traded but no, I don’t see it happening in the near future. Result, we limp along in mediocrity with no real plan or direction.
by aQua on Feb 8, 2007 2:16 PM EST reply actions
My problem with signing someone like Bibby is that they tend to cost too much for their performance. Vets get paid based on their past performance and are a proven commodity and as a result tend to be overpaid. I am all for bringing in a real all star like Gasol or Garnett or even O’Neil. What I don’t want to see happen is to get saddled with an average veteran on the downside of his career with a big contract. If Ainge can find diamonds in the rough or get guys cheaply go for it. But, overpaying for a vet is a bad idea.
by JohnK on Feb 8, 2007 2:18 PM EST reply actions
Keep getting those double doubles big Al. Your value is going up and up. Just in time for the Gerald and Jeff for Pau Gasol trade.
I like the comparison between Bibby and West. Sounds about right. Way too pricey for pg/sg hybrid. Lewis I like a lot but he’s a SF and we have enough wing players. We need a true center.
Watching the last 2 games you can say that the Cs defense was atrocious. A few times the C players were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. It was really pathetic. As most guys who have played some basketball in the past they know that to play defense all you have to do is move your feet and be between your man and the basket. It seems that birdbrain Doc has instituted a type of “rotating defense” that our players have little idea of how to execute it. The ability to put the ball in the basket comes and goes every nite but defense should be constant. You would think that with all the practice time they have they should be playing better defense but this does not happen and for this you can only blame the coach.
by flyfisher on Feb 8, 2007 2:38 PM EST reply actions
Brick, i have to disagree to some extent about Tony Allen’s injury. I have had ACL reconstrution and dedicated myself to rehab. I was playing soccer 6 months to the day of surgery. Tony is going to able to play again, but it will be a very long battle to regain his athletic abilites back 100%. As we all know, that is what tony’s game is based on. I give him a 50 % shot of getting back to where he was. He can not be counted on as a KEY part of the equation rather a gift he comes back healthy.
by howl1309 on Feb 8, 2007 3:00 PM EST reply actions
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/chris_mannix/02/07/west.needs/1.html
Sacramento Kings
Projected draft position: 8
2007-08 committed salaries: $54.1 million
What they need: Point guard*, depth
How they are going to get it: The Kings have a decision to make: Have they gone as far as Mike Bibby can take them, or do they want to bring back their prized free agent — should he choose to opt out of the remaining two years of his contract — with another big-money deal (hence, the asterisk)? They should send him packing. For years Bibby was able to mask his lack of playmaking skills in a Kings offense that essentially ran things through Chris Webber and Vlade Divac in the high post. But as Sacramento has evolved toward a more traditional offense, Bibby has become less effective. The fluidity that was once a staple of the Kings’ play is little more than a memory.
by jarobiso on Feb 8, 2007 3:10 PM EST reply actions
All this trade talk is making me nauseous. There is only one way to get a title, and that is through the draft. We must land Greg Oden and hope he turns into Bill Russell, or Kevin Durant and hope he turns into Larry Bird. With the exception of Miami landing Shaq, you just don’t see championship teams getting their key piece other than through the draft. And even in Miami’s case, you could argue that Wade was the real key anyway. The only exception is Detroit a couple years ago. But, why would you want to follow the blurprint for the lone exception instead of following the rule? Don’t trade anyone until you find out if you are getting one of those two players. Then make moves to adjust to either one.
If you end up with Durant, Pierce comes back healthy and you are able to get Gasol (hope he doesn’t go before the trade deadline and offer everything but Durant and PP) they could potential do what the Spurs did. I know people are sick of hearing about potential and wait till next year but I think they are in a good spot. We just need a little luck to get a top 2 pick and hope the GM doesn’t trade it.
by Stuck in Philly on Feb 8, 2007 4:04 PM EST reply actions
Am I the only one that sees Durant being the perfect player next to Jefferson, and Oden being the perfect piece next to Gasol.
Pierce can play with either rookie, but Jefferson with Durant would be the team of the future. Over time, those 2 would be interchanged about between the 4/5.
I hate to say it, but if both Oden and Durant were to go pro, I would rather have the #2 to eliminate any over analyzing.
by cos on Feb 8, 2007 4:12 PM EST reply actions
Also, I can’t believe all the people willing to trade Jefferson. Look at the numbers hes putting up in the FIRST year that he’s actually getting minutes. And don’t forget that he gets all the defensive attention because no one else on the floor is a real threat.
And to those that complain that he’s not dominating, he can’t pass the ball to himself. He’s growing at the proper pace. Next year, he should be much more comfortable with his standing on the team and should start to demand the ball more.
by cos on Feb 8, 2007 4:17 PM EST reply actions
I agree with you Cos. Durant is more of a wingman than a PF, despite his height. He is a playmaker with the ball [and somehow still quite the rebounder]. Pairing him with someone who can score off the block [like Jefferson, or perhaps Garnett] would make great sense. Menawhile, Oden is limited to around the hoop; he’s be better augmented by a player who can step out and shoot, like Gasol can.
by jarobiso on Feb 8, 2007 4:19 PM EST reply actions
Right now, Al Jefferson is doing the “putting up good numbers on a bad team” trick. Lots of players can do this. The question is, will he be able to put these numbers up on a good team? That’s why people are willing to trade for Big Al.
-charlie
by Cullain on Feb 8, 2007 4:24 PM EST reply actions
Its far easier to acquire key defensive players who sub in off the bench than it is to find a competent offensive player who has great defensive ability…Kendrick Perkins and Tony Allen are quality defensive players, regardless of where you think they fit in the greater scheme of things…
The draft this season is an indesputable advantage for this team. If they get a top 2-3 pick they will acquire a great talent, but that talent still isn’t going to come in and be the difference maker instantly that people are assuming…
Greg Oden is physically ready and he may be read defensively, but OSU plays a zone defense that is completely illegal in the pros and I can’t say with certainty that an 18 year old Oden picks up on the nuances of NBA defensive responsiblities instantly..offensively he is not that far along, and this team still needs another focal point player to go along with Pierce…Jefferson is getting there, but he’s not there yet…
Durant is physically imature and it’ll take him 3 years to get his body to where it needs to be. Durant will be able to put up some numbers right away, but he’s not going to come in like LaBron and be a franchise player from year one, he’s got a lot to learn about the game…these two represent the two BEST players in this draft and neither is likely to be a franchis-direction-changing player in year one, its a process with these two…
Regardless of pick, a key veteran or two must be brought in. Mike Bibby might cost a lot, but he’s got playoff experience and he’s consistent. He’s had a rough shooting year this year, which isn’t something you like to see, but he’s a career 48 percent dead-eye who knows how to play his positions…
whoever said Bibby isn’t a true playmaker is absolutely correct, he is more like West than anything else. But, Bibby has better ball-handling ability and KNOWS when to shoot the ball…Delonte is great when he’s looking to score, but he’s a bench player when he’s trying to make passes instead of knocking down shots…Bibby will put up the consistent 17-25 points on kick-outs from Jefferson, Oden, or whoever else the team features on the box…Rondo can’t do that and West refuses to do it at times-THIS COSTS GAMES….
Vets fall into roles right away, young players have to come to terms with roles…we can keep plenty of youth and get even more as the years go by, but if the team wants to accelerate the process of building they need some guys that are already there…
No Jefferson is a bona fide scorer who would put up BETTER numbers on a good team because he wouldn’t be triple-teamed every time he touched the ball. Al is also a big time rebounder. What he can’t do is defend quick pfs like Al Harrington out on the perimeter. His feet get all tangled up and he winds up defending with his hands instead of moving his feet. That is a sure recipe for foul trouble.
There is no way I would trade Jefferson at any price unless the Celtics get Oden.
If the Celtics get Durant, then they have to look seriously into moving Pierce. Durant is a wing player, not a frontcourt player.
I also completely disagree that if the Celtics don’t get one of the top two picks that they ought to trade the pick. People who say those kinds of things don’t know what they are talking about. Guys like Noah, Splitter and Horford are playing on loaded teams where they don’t get the touches. All them them will be impact players.
Look at Havlicek’s numbers at Ohio State. They were pretty ordinary: 14 pts, 7 rebounds a game, and he was known primarily as a defensive specialist. That’s kind of funny when you realize that Havlicek scored 26,000 points in the NBA- and that was just the regular season. But Havlicek had to share the ball with Jerry Lucas, Larry Siegried, Mel Nowell and others.
I would be delighted to get Noah, Horford or Splitter. In fact, Noah may be a better fit with Jefferson than Oden, because Noah has the quickness and athleticism to defend 3 positions.
Well if we wanted to be a competitive playoff team, we should have kept the Walker bunch and Obie. I’m not crazy about Mike Bibby, Jamaal Maglore might be okay. But is he that much better than Kandiman? There will be a trade in 2 weeks.
by greendoc on Feb 8, 2007 5:45 PM EST reply actions
During this long losing streak, it’s not been much metioned that the Celtics often play with what amounts to a college team against pros. Jefferson, Greene, Rondo, Telfair and Perkins (I’m sure I’m leaving somebody out), in particular, would still all be in college if they hadn’t come out early. West and most everybody else is barely out of college. Looked at as a matchup, for large chunks of each game, between college boys and pros, they are holding their own. Oden, Durant and most of the consensus top 5 picks are all college freshman or underclassmen. With that anticipated bluechip lottery pick, this will still be a very young team even with Pierce back at full strength. Even so, it seems like, once Pierce returns, they will probably only be one franchise player away from being a solid contender for years to come. Oden is the closest thing to Bill Russell I’ve seen in a generation and Durant reminds me somewhat of a Len Bias type do it all front court player. I’m hoping for Oden because good #5’s are so rare and can do more to turn franchises around than any other kind of player unless, of course, Durant is potentially a Michael Jordan/Kobe Bryant kind of stud.
I will be thrilled if they can get one of those first two picks (although picks 3-5 don’t look like terrible consolation prizes). If the Celtics can draft one of those hosses, we might look back on that as the turning point in the luck of the franchise. The first championship era stretched from the drafting of Russell to the disatrous death of Bias. The team hasn’t been close to the same any time since. However, the franchise looks to be one good draft pick away from a second golden age.
I’m all for the Home Run…Stand Pat…take it on the chin for this year anyway; but, then again, I think that’s what Eric was saying, I’m really not sure…saw a little waffling there…
I’m going to tell you something…Danny Ainge is steady lookin’…he’s a workaholic and he bleeds Green…He has the pulse of what can be spent and what can be had…If it were possible to improve this team, he would; but not for immediate titillation over future glory…Just about everything we spew out as the “proper” direction for him to take is similar to a child leaving cookies and milk for Santa…(and then prayin’ real hard…)
This officially works per ESPN Trad Machine. It helps all teams, and by golly, I’m doing it.
[/b]Boston
Outgoing:
Kendrick Perkins
Gerald Green
Theo Ratliff
Wally Szczerbiak
Incoming:
Trenton Hassell
Kevin Garnett
Brian Cardinal
[b][/b]Grizzlies
Outgoing:
Brian Cardinal
Pau Gasol
Stromile Swift
Mike Miller
Incoming:
Kendrick Perkins
Gerald Green
Ricky Davis
Theo Ratliff
Wally Szczerbiak
[b]Timberwolves
Outgoing:
Trenton Hassell
Kevin Garnett
Ricky Davis
Incoming:
Mike Miller
Sromile Swift
Pau Gasol
by RAcker on Feb 8, 2007 5:50 PM EST reply actions
“…what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.” – Billy Madison
by smiggity on Feb 8, 2007 5:55 PM EST reply actions
Rondo
West
Pierce
Jefferson
Garnett
Keep the pick, too. Come on fellas. Drink some of this lucky kool-aid. Doc will still have us losing well into late March with that lineup being assembled, that we probably will get a shot at Oden or Durant. Are ya with me?
Ah, hell…I am nuts.
by RAcker on Feb 8, 2007 5:58 PM EST reply actions
Brickowski said:
No Jefferson is a bona fide scorer who would put up BETTER numbers on a good team because he wouldn’t be triple-teamed every time he touched the ball. Al is also a big time rebounder. What he can’t do is defend quick pfs like Al Harrington out on the perimeter. His feet get all tangled up and he winds up defending with his hands instead of moving his feet. That is a sure recipe for foul trouble.
There is no way I would trade Jefferson at any price unless the Celtics get Oden.
If the Celtics get Durant, then they have to look seriously into moving Pierce. Durant is a wing player, not a frontcourt player.
I also completely disagree that if the Celtics don’t get one of the top two picks that they ought to trade the pick. People who say those kinds of things don’t know what they are talking about. Guys like Noah, Splitter and Horford are playing on loaded teams where they don’t get the touches. All them them will be impact players.
Look at Havlicek’s numbers at Ohio State. They were pretty ordinary: 14 pts, 7 rebounds a game, and he was known primarily as a defensive specialist. That’s kind of funny when you realize that Havlicek scored 26,000 points in the NBA- and that was just the regular season. But Havlicek had to share the ball with Jerry Lucas, Larry Siegried, Mel Nowell and others.
I would be delighted to get Noah, Horford or Splitter. In fact, Noah may be a better fit with Jefferson than Oden, because Noah has the quickness and athleticism to defend 3 positions.
——————————————————————————————————————————
Now you’re speaking my langauge Brick…
Those 3 are impact defensive players and will be within their first season in the pros, especially Splitter…Splitter is probably being vastly underrated this year for no better reason than he has been a known-name for the past 4 years…Splitter doesn’t rebound at a high level, but he’s solid at it and defensively he’ll block shots and can defend away from the basket, weakside, and on-ball tremendously…he hasn’t had much of an offensive role on Benetton, but he can hit the spot shot and put the ball on the deck…I like him alot…
Anyone on this board who doesn’t think Al is going to be a very good pro should quit posting. You obviously are showing your total ignorance and have absolutely not ability to recognize talent. The guy is averaging 15 pts and 10.5 rebs. These numbers don’t just happen. Maybe you can take enough shots to ave 15 pts (he’s shoting 49%), but rebounding is plain hard work. He’s .1 of a board behind that stiff in SA (Duncan). And ahead of other stiffs like JO, Randolph, Amare, Dirk and Brand.
BTW, Al is a PF and not a Center. He can play center, but he gives us so much size and it puts us into a mismatch he’s much more productive playing against PFs. And if we happen to get Oden, Al can and will play PF with him.
When PP comes back I expect Al numbers to be as good or even better. People are going to have to play PP one-on-one or Al one-on-one. Al has proven he can score and rebound against anyone. Last nite he had 16 boards against another stiff (Shaq).
Personally, I don’t want Al traded in most of these deals. Both JO and KG are around 30, which means we get 2-4 good years. Al is 21 that means at least 10 good years. I’d love to see us get Gasol, but again, I would rather see a lineup with Gasol, Al and PP rather than just PP and Gasol.
Interesting column Eric. I agree to the extent that we may need to lower our expectations in what the youngsters will ring in return. I also would love to go after Bibby, he provides a legitimate deep threat from the PG spot. I just don’t think you could give up Rondo to get him. Rondo is more valuable because of his defensive skills then West will be. I like West, but I think he will be easier to replace then Rondo will e.
A healthy Ratcliff? Paul Pierce’s injury, you can shrug off as bad luck. He’s durable, and willing to play through pain, it’s just one of those thing. However, when Theo get injured, or Wally, or Delonte – that’s not one of those thing, that’s something you need to expect, they’re injury-prone players. You can’t rely on them being healthy
by Cullain on Feb 8, 2007 8:02 PM EST reply actions
You continue to believe that Rondo is not our best bet at the point, Eric. The prime reason that you make this error is that you fail to understand that basketball is a two way sport. You win by outscoring you opponent, not merely by scoring points.
Rondo’s plus/minus continues to rise for the simple reason that he runs our offense effectively (as effectively as River’s garbage system can be run) and our defense is much better with him on the court.
The last two games have been prime examples of his impact upon this lineup. In both games we had success against two very good teams with him out there in the first quarter. Once he came out we IMMEDIATELY started to get blasted by our opponents. No Rondo, and the flood gates opened. I was fairly certain that Rondo’s plus/minus numbers would go down playing with the starters full time, but I ended up being mistakedn. Without him holding the second unit together, his exit from the game has resulted in complete collapses in the last two games. While losing the last two games by a combined total of 19 points, Rondo’s plus/minus numbers for those two games was a combined plus 16. What makes those numbers even more shocking is that Rondo averaged 35.5 minutes per game over those two contests. The Celtics were outscored by 35 points in an average window of 12.5 minutes per game without Rajon holding them together.
What was Delonte West’s plus/minus in those two games combined? Minus 31. Delonte, who started both games with Rajon, went on to be 31 points in the hole. How terrible is that? Seriously, how does he end up with a minus 31 after playing most of his minutes with Rondo? The reason is pretty obvious: with Rondo out of the game we do not have a competent point guard in the lineup. In addition to that our team defense completely falls apart.
People claimed that Rondo’s plus/minus stats were the result of playing with the second unit, and that our bench was so much better than other benches that it was easy to do so. When has our bench had ANY success without Rondo running the point? Now that he is starting full time, when Bassy or Delonte is out there “being the point guard” it is a complete farce.
Your solution is bring in Mike Bibby, a guy who Rondo completely shut down at the end of the last Kings game. Bibby didn’t even get a shot off in the final six minutes of that one, not that he wasn’t looking to shoot. Bibby’s opponent is shooting for an eFG a full 100 points higher than Rajon’s. Rondo doesn’t have the significant advantage of playing with Raon Artest either, not to mention Kevin Martin or Brad Miller. Bibby has been injured this season, but he has never been a good defender, and he isn’t getting any younger and is 9 years older than Rondo. He isn’t a great passer and forget about rebounds and steals, because he isn’t in Rondo’s league when it comes to such things – very few point guards are.
This team needs work, and guys need to be moving out, but pumping up Delonte West as if he is, in any way, in Rondo’s league as a point guard is borderline criminal. Proposing a trade for a guy that Rajon dominated defensively the very first time he faced him isn’t a good idea either. Rajon needs to shoot more frequently and more accurately, but even thinking about trading him for a “vet point guard” is foolish. He’s 20 years old, is an elite athlete and has a keen basketball mind. Most players in his position would tsruggle, yet he carries this team when he’s in the game. The stats clearly back me up in saying that.
by MikeDfromNP on Feb 8, 2007 8:21 PM EST reply actions
Well if West was minus 31 while playing most of his minutes with Rondo, then Rondo’s number must not be very good either. And West shut down Bibby pretty effectively last year as well. Held him to 4 points in over 40 minutes as I recall.
Rondo has a good head for the game but he is lacking in fundamentals. On two occasions in the 4th quarter he had West wide open for buckets. On the first occasion he threw a bullet pass at West’s ankles when West was running full speed. No one could catch that pass (He should have thrown a bounce pass). The second one he threw about a foot over West’s head after West had made a nice backdoor cut.
Both passes were good ideas. The man was open and Rondo knew where the ball was supposed to go. But the execution was terrible.
Rondo’s instincts are good, but he needs to work on fundamentals. West is still the best passer on the team. West makes passes that his teammates can actually catch.
Great column! Makes we wonder if we should hang onto Pierce, other than for sentimental reasons. It’s just hard to see that we can be a contender within 3 years, unless we trade for experience and get really lucky with the chemistry. Add a 19-20 year old lottery pick and we’re the youngest team in the history of the sport. I’m willing to wait, but most fans seem to want a much quicker fix.
by ThickNThinFan on Feb 8, 2007 9:05 PM EST reply actions
Well if West was minus 31 while playing most of his minutes with Rondo, then Rondo’s number must not be very good either. And West shut down Bibby pretty effectively last year as well. Held him to 4 points in over 40 minutes as I recall.
Rondo has a good head for the game but he is lacking in fundamentals. On two occasions in the 4th quarter he had West wide open for buckets. On the first occasion he threw a bullet pass at West’s ankles when West was running full speed. No one could catch that pass (He should have thrown a bounce pass). The second one he threw about a foot over West’s head after West had made a nice backdoor cut.
Both passes were good ideas. The man was open and Rondo knew where the ball was supposed to go. But the execution was terrible.
Rondo’s instincts are good, but he needs to work on fundamentals. West is still the best passer on the team. West makes passes that his teammates can actually catch.
I was at the Heat game, and Delonte absolutely should have reeled in tha lob pass. He misjudged where it was going to land, and it was a very soft pass. He simply overran it. From where I was sitting I had a good angle to see what happened. I was shocked that Delonte didn’t get to that one. I could have caught that pass, and that isn’t an exaggeration. It wasn’t a “backdoor cut” either, it was a two on one fastbreak.
He also fumbled away a long bounce pass from Rondo on a break started on a Rondo steal where the pass hit him right in the hands, and he couldn’t reel it in. The bounce pass on the baseline cut led Delonte too much, it wasn’t at his ankles – when a ball bounces on the floor halfway between the passer and the target it is called a “bounce pass”. If West was running full speed on that one, then he isn’t very fast.
Still Rondo could have made better passes, especially on the baseline cut. He could have waited another beat for Delonte to spring wide open, and it would have been an easy basket as no one was going to challenge that shot at the rim. Rondo played it too fine on that one when he didn’t need to. He could have made a bounce pass instead of the lob pass on the 2 on 1 break. Still, he has been very efficient passing the ball in his 3 starts averaging 8 assists a game against 2.3 turnovers. Seeing as he has averaged 2.3 steals, he has made up for his own mistakes well.
by MikeDfromNP on Feb 8, 2007 9:23 PM EST reply actions
Rajon Rondo against the Heat = plus 6
Delonte West against the Heat = minus 18
That is the only stat that I really care about. Those plus/minus numbers are not a matter of “opinion” either, check out PopcornMachine.net. They use the same system as 82games.com. except that they show the per game stats.
Delonte got a lot of empty assists in that game, IMO. He was turning down open jumpers to force the ball to guys who ended up taking some pretty bad shots. I have no use for that kind of play. Delonte played like he was possessed by Stephon Marbury in that game, IMO. It is as if he does not want to do anything that will result in an assist for Rajon. If Rondo set him up for an open mid range shot, which happened a lot in that game, he pulled the ball down and went into “point guard mode.” I couldn’t stand watching it. Ricky Davis basketball.
by MikeDfromNP on Feb 8, 2007 9:42 PM EST reply actions
Obviously the first two picks are golden tickets, but even the 3rd or 4th pick could put this team squarely in the mix. I think even a B. Wright to a healthy 08 team is big time.
by bizahworldmormonbraindr on Feb 8, 2007 9:53 PM EST reply actions
A very though provoking article EricW sure we have to make choices soon on several players (assests) and move them for “needs” I agree we will probably less for what wqe offer. I suggest we focus on needs rather than players as others have also suggested. We need Height to rebound and defend the bigger 4’s and 5’s in the league. it seem as if most teams are now trying to start and play two big athlitic players at the 4 and 5 and by big I am talking about 2 seven footers thus our front line is too small to compete. we must shore up those two positions quickly. Also we need a taller wing player. who can score in bunches at the rim or on the perimiter. all thes guys need to know how to play defense and be equiped to do so ie lenght and athelitic(sp) On the other side of the equation I would certainly keep jefferson and green unless we do better in the draft. I would play pierce as a three and Durant as as a two or the other way around if he is our man. If its oden I would push jefferson to the four spot and hope he adjust- especially on the defensive end. Finaly I like all of our youth’s potential and performances to date yet I would not be reluctant to trade them for the right players at the right position. This year at least i would keep the draft pick or at least not trade it until this summer right before the draft.
by Freeease1 on Feb 8, 2007 9:56 PM EST reply actions
“I don’t think that either of them played very well. And both of them pass up too many open shots. I’d rather watch Rondo miss 15 straight instead of dribbling aimlessly. West dances with the ball too, but not as much as Rondo”
Rondo doesn’t dribble around aimlessly. The kid is always looking to get someone their shot. He doesn’t just stand in one spot pounding the ball into the floor, he penetrates and looks to create angles.
I do agree, however, that he needs to shoot the ball a lot more often. He took over the Clippers game, in the first half, and since then has been very reluctant to shoot. I think that part of it is that he is dealing with stuff from his teammates. Delonte has his buddies on this squad, and Delonte doesn’t like being pushed aside at the point. Rondo, realizing this, is going overboard to show that he is a team player.
He is naturally reluctant to shoot anyways, but this definitely is playing into it, IMO. There were about 6 or 7 times in the Heat game where “shoot” popped into my head when Rondo was out there. He went 4 for 10 in that game, so it wasn’t as if he was stinking the joint up. I think that he should shoot more often for the simple reason that with Paul and Tony out he is the only player on our team who can consistently create his own shot. If the play breaks down and no one else gets open, then Rondo should just take his shot.
The operative word with him is “confidence”. He can hit the mid range jumper, but he has to take them. He has to feel confident that he can take those and that it is OK to do so. That his teammates won’t turn on him and that Doc wont start screaming bloody murder. I’m not happy that he isn’t doing it, but I can understand what he’s going through. When it clicks for him, he’ll be fine.
by MikeDfromNP on Feb 8, 2007 10:46 PM EST reply actions
Rondo may very well have the best POTENTIAL of any of our PG prospects, but that doesn’t change the point of my article, which was about building around Pierce…
Rondo may get to where he needs to be by the end of the season, but right now he’d be the statistically worst PG on any playoff team and we’re talking about building a playoff team around Pierce, not the open-ended future of our current players…
You’re pointing to his defense based of plus/minus which has plenty of holes that i’ve talked about at length, but that’s not the issue…the PG position on a team with an interior scorer must be able to hit his open shots-don’t trot out the Tony Parker stuff either, Parker is a better situational shooter and SA has a center who is the primary focal point of their offense…
Pierce is our focal point and Jefferson is our 2nd/3rd option depending on what we add…if we add another big man of significance we are going to be built even more around post play and perimeter shooting…our perimeter players are going to get the ball back most often with defense sucked into the paint and the shot clock expiring…do the math…
I REALLY LIKE RONDO, but the team has to evaluate its pieces and figure out what direction it wants to go…MANY scenarios are in play, I just created a theoretical framework for building around Pierce, which has been the team’s stated objective this whole time…factoring in their desire for another big and the draft being a draft of bigs, i’m thinking logically about personnel…
Rajon Rondo is NOT ready to start on a competitive playoff team featuring 2 post threats and a slashing wing…he’s a PG that needs transition and ball-handling responsibility…something that is not in his favor if the team is building around Post play and Pierce…
If they simply draft another big man the only way Rondo is going to get the type of offensive responsibility he’ll need to make his teammates better is by having the ball in his hands and penetration 25-30 times a game…Pierce needs to be gone in that scenario because we are more geared to motion offense in the half court then we are to pure transtion or PG-as-lead-creator basketball…
I don’t want to trade very many of our youth, but its going to be a choice between a Pierce/Jefferson/Pick vet trade team or a Jeff/Green/Rondo pick team…there is no way the team goes into next season with Pierce and nothing other than the draft pick added…even then the offense would be looking a lot more like a post and perimeter team than a PG-led team….
MikeDfromNP said:
“I don’t think that either of them played very well. And both of them pass up too many open shots. I’d rather watch Rondo miss 15 straight instead of dribbling aimlessly. West dances with the ball too, but not as much as Rondo”
Rondo doesn’t dribble around aimlessly. The kid is always looking to get someone their shot. He doesn’t just stand in one spot pounding the ball into the floor, he penetrates and looks to create angles.
I do agree, however, that he needs to shoot the ball a lot more often. He took over the Clippers game, in the first half, and since then has been very reluctant to shoot. I think that part of it is that he is dealing with stuff from his teammates. Delonte has his buddies on this squad, and Delonte doesn’t like being pushed aside at the point. Rondo, realizing this, is going overboard to show that he is a team player.
He is naturally reluctant to shoot anyways, but this definitely is playing into it, IMO. There were about 6 or 7 times in the Heat game where “shoot” popped into my head when Rondo was out there. He went 4 for 10 in that game, so it wasn’t as if he was stinking the joint up. I think that he should shoot more often for the simple reason that with Paul and Tony out he is the only player on our team who can consistently create his own shot. If the play breaks down and no one else gets open, then Rondo should just take his shot.
The operative word with him is “confidence”. He can hit the mid range jumper, but he has to take them. He has to feel confident that he can take those and that it is OK to do so. That his teammates won’t turn on him and that Doc wont start screaming bloody murder. I’m not happy that he isn’t doing it, but I can understand what he’s going through. When it clicks for him, he’ll be fine.
——————————————————————————————————————————
Mike, we can argue on the other points-plus/minus for instance…but don’t start relying on this “click” idea within the lockerroom…Delonte and Rajon sit right next to each other and communicate freely, as does Telfair with both…they are all pretty open with each other…both are trying to be the consumate PG and neither is shooting or passing when they should with any great frequency…Rondo isn’t in fear of his teammates is a falacy…Doc wants him to shoot and tells him this all the time…West needs to shoot more too, they’re both trying to prove they’re playmakers…
I go to the locker room, talk to the players and watch them talk to each other…they are a unit 1 through 15…
Eric, I am not basing my argument solely on his plus/minus. Rondo leads the league in steals per 48 minutes AND holds his man to a lower eFG than ANY point guard who has played anywhere near the minutes that he has. When I say any, I mean all of them, every last one. Better than Earl Watson, better than Chris Duhon, better than anyone who you can think of. He isn’t some guy who just makes a lot of gambles and gets steals while his man is lighting it up. He is shutting his man down AND ripping steals at a league leading rate. That is GREAT defense – there is no other way to describe it.
Regarding the /- argument, one of the prime indicators of a player’s value is how much the team is outscored by when they are off of the court. The Celtics have been outscored by 5.7 points per 48 this season with Paul Pierce off of the court. That is second on the team to Rondo. The Celtics are outscored by 7.5 points per 48 with Rondo out of the game. Let that perkolate in your mind a bit. With Rondo on the court they outscore their opponents by 3.6 points per 48. The net difference is 11.1 points per 48 which is one of the highest IN THE LEAGUE. This number has gone up, not down, in the last month with Rajon’s extended playing time.
Why not bring Parker up, while we are at it. The Spurs won two titles without that kid being able to hit the broadside of a barn with his jumper. Remember Steve Kerr having to come in to save the day when Parker was air balling clutch jumpers in the Finals? Parker didn’t stop them from getting there, did he?
Why had Parker been effective, though, as the starting point guard for that Spurs team despite having a reliable jumper? Well, when you have a major post presence and you have a point guard who can penetrate like him, that opens up a lot of possibilities. Opponents can’t collapse on pentration with impunity because Parker would just dump the ball off to Duncan, just as Wade dumps it off to Shaq, and Kobe dumped it off to Shaq. Parker gets his points in the paint. Last year he was in the top 5 in points in the paint. If we add a guy like Oden, it would be alley oop city on Rondo’s penetration.
Add a guy like Durant and then watch out. With Durant spreading the floor with his three point range, and his great athleticism which makes him a prototype PF of the future, Rondo would have a field day. Al would be a great target in the post, but with shooters at the other 3 spots Rondo would be allowed to pick and choose where to get the points.
Rondo isn’t ready to start on a playoff team this year. I agree fully. Of course we are 12 and 36, so I’m having a hard time understanding how that is an issue. Considering that he has averaged 13 points, 8 assists. 5 rebounds, 2.3 steals and turnovers in his first 3 starts, something tells me that he is going to be fine.
As to Pierce needing to be gone if Rondo is running the offense, correct me if I’m wrong, but Manu Ginobili still plays effectively in a point guard run offense in San Antonio, does he not. He is a slasher, is he not? So what’s the problem? A penetrating point guard and a slashing wing, in combination with a top post player, seems to work just fine…that is if you use NBA Championships as a benchmark for success. Pierce is a much better player than Manu, IMO, so why should he suffer playing alongside Rondo? He might score fewer points, but if our team was the better for it, so what?
If any decisions are going to be made about the future, then they should be made without Paul’s welfare being a high priority. I love the guy, but you don’t throw away a 20 year old true point guard, like Rondo, for a 30 year old wing’s “benefit”.
As I have already explained, repeatedly, Paul is a mediocre ball handler and passer, by the standards of primary playmakers. As a complementary playmaker he is just fine, but he is not a great dribbler nor is he a great passer, he is a GREAT scorer, and should be used as such.
by MikeDfromNP on Feb 9, 2007 1:15 AM EST reply actions
As to your points about “Rajon and Delonte both trying to prove that they are playmakers”, how does that statament in any way conflict with wat I said. They are both trying to prove that they are point guards? That is the problem in a nutshell.
Rondo sets Delonte up for open 18 footers and Delonte almost invariably turns th shot down and goes into his point guard act. He is not the point guard. he doesn’t have the handle, he doesn’t have the court vision and he doesn’t have the speed to compete with Rajon at that spot. He does have one thing : the absolute desire to be the starting point guard. If that means doing his destructive point guard act, then so be it.
I do believe in presence of cliques in this team. You see Delonte and Rajon talking to each other. Nice. Then when I watch the games, and Al is passing the ball over Rajon’s head on the inbounds to get it to Delonte, and West just takes it up the court that means that it is everybody is just hunky dory with each other, huh? Perk does the same damn thing. Ryan Gomes commented that Rajon’s performance against the Clippers was because they weren’t prepared to face him. Et cetera and so on.
I think that you are not really listening to what is coming out of the mouths of these guys. Al doesn’t want us to make any trades to bring in anyone else. They don’t want the top pick in the draft. They want to win with the unit that they already have. Do you honestly think that Al, Perk and Delonte haven’t been talking to each other for the last three seasons about how they would be the starting PF, C and PG for this team in the future? These guys are tight with each other, and as far as they’re concerned Rajon is some rookie who is trying to take their buddy’s job.
Doc wants Rondo to shoot more? That’s nice, except for the fact that if he misses he’s going to get screamed at or benched. Why should Rondo think any differently? Hell, I want Rondo to shoot more, but he gets the stink eye enough as it is. The guys seem to be warming up to him more, I watched Al chatting with Rajon during a break in the action and patting him on the back during the Heat game. His hustle and playmaking are hard to ignore, but I think that Rajon is trying to get these guys to like him, and taking a lot of shots goes against the grain.
by MikeDfromNP on Feb 9, 2007 1:53 AM EST reply actions
Brick,
I agree with you on the Celts needing the D. You mention about an athletic power forward then you mention they need a banger at the four. ?? I guess Wilcox is athletic enough but is he tough enough (a banger ?). I know most people don’t hold this opinion but if we ended up with #3 I would like to see us get Noah. He will impact the C’s defensively at the four and help Jefferson out on the frontline. It’s funny, I don’t know about the rest of you but I am up in NH and hardly ever get to see Florida on tv. #1 team and they never seem to be on. I’m looking forward to this saturday night when the’re on espn at 9pm.
Mike, there’s a significant difference between the Spurs, who use a high-post big to run their offense through, and a team like the Celtics who have a low post big and are about to acquire another offensive threat in the paint…Tony Parker is the 2nd or 3rd option on SA on any given night, Rondo isn’t going to get that responsibility….
Manu Ginobilli is a slasher, but he is moving around the court off ball with Duncan running the offense…Parker doesnt run the offense, he plays off of Duncan like the rest of the team…
Jefferson isn’t a high post player and he certainly won’t be running the offense like Duncan does. Pierce is who the offense goes through and that would have to switch to Rondo to maximize his ability…if the Celtics do draft a big-pretty much a foregone conclusion at this point-they are going to run their offense inside/outside, dumping it into Jefferson and then kicking it out to Pierce and the rest of the perimeter players…
Parker’s lanes to the basket are created when Duncan is at the FT line extended and Oberto is on the baseline left/right at 12 feet…Jefferson is going to be packed in the paint 20-30 posessions a game and the amount of defensive attention down there with him and a high-post rookie big (Durant,Noah, McRoberts, Splitter) is not going to leave a ton of room for drives…they can re-design the offense to space the high post man wide on the elbow and incorporate Rondo’s drives in by having him stay on the top of the key as part of a set group of plays, I just don’t see them building all sorts of things in for him…
He’s going to have to hit shots, and despite your insinuations to the contrary, Doc rarely gets angry with these guys for taking shots, especially Rondo…its the proper shots he’s looking for and trying to teach them…when Rondo-or West-is wide open on the ball swing, Doc wants them to take that shot…
West DOES want to be the PG, something i’ve talked about many times in frustration with various people. He is starting at the 2, but he is still engaged in a battle to prove he can play the one…but the team isn’t freezing Rondo on the court or in the lockerroom…Jefferson, Allen, and West came in together, but they aren’t some clique against the younger guys…all the players on this team are playing to satisfy the coaches demands on them…they are all very close with each other…I’m possitive Delonte wants to be the starting PG, but he certainly doesn’t articulate in some divisive manner…
I agree with you, I love Noah. I think I’d rather have him than Durrant. But Durrant will be hard to pass up. My issue with Durrant is that he is not a power forward. He’s a freaky athlete but he’s a small forward or shooting guard. He will probably grow into a PF and play both PF and SF and just be classified as a forward before we tagged everyone with specific positions.
celty86 said:
Brick,
I agree with you on the Celts needing the D. You mention about an athletic power forward then you mention they need a banger at the four. ?? I guess Wilcox is athletic enough but is he tough enough (a banger ?). I know most people don’t hold this opinion but if we ended up with #3 I would like to see us get Noah. He will impact the C’s defensively at the four and help Jefferson out on the frontline. It’s funny, I don’t know about the rest of you but I am up in NH and hardly ever get to see Florida on tv. #1 team and they never seem to be on. I’m looking forward to this saturday night when the’re on espn at 9pm.
Well, Al is already showing that his jumps hot is coming along nicely. I think that he would greatly benefit from actually using the back board as Duncan does, but that is really a matter for the Celtic’s coaching staff to address. Why Al does not do this is beyond me. Using the backboard would give him the countermove jumper he needs on both the right and left (especially) blocks, but I have yet to see him do this. In fact he doesn’t seem to use a counter spin at all this season, even though he did so with success in the last two years. He used to spin a lay the ball up off of the glass effectively in the past when his man over played his right when on the left block. Developing his left hand wouldn’t hurt either.
Duncan, IMO, is one of the league’s premier low post scorers. He steps out a lot more now than h did before, but the San Antonio offense is all about getting Duncan the ball down low and forcing the other team to double on him. Duncan kicks the ball out and either the guy he passes it to shoots or the ball is rotated to a another shooter. This is why such a high premium is placed on three point shooters in their offense. Brent Barry, Michael Finley, Robert Horry, and even Matt Bonner are on the team to specifically shoot threes. Manu shoots a lot himself, and Parker has developed, over time, into being a competent jump shooter. Duncan is near the top in the league in points scored in the paint. He is a low post scorer. A high post big, IMO, is someone like Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace or Brad Miller – guys who are primarily jump shooters. Does S.A. use him in the high post? Yes, is that his bread and butter? No. Parker, by the way, scores 19.0 points a game and Duncan scores 20.4. Parker is a huge part of their offense. Yet, Duncan wanted Jason Kidd to be the point guard there.
If we get Oden, you might have a point. If we get Durant, a guy who has NBA three point range already, not so much. I really want Oden, but an offense with Durant at the 4 would be explosive, esepcially with Al in the post. The thing about Rondo, though, is that he is a great fit with either guy as being a pure, pass first distributor he would feed a Pierce/Durant fueled offense with his passes, and with Oden on board we would be one of the best defensive teams in the league before long. Rondo would shut down the point of attack and Oden would shut down the paint. This team would start winning games very quickly, especially with Paul Pierce getting points for us. You win games by outscoring your opponents; S.A. and Detroit have proven in recent years that defense is just as effective as offense in accomplishing that.
As to the whole Delonte issue, it is OBVIOUS that he still wants to be the point guard. He goes into his point guard routine when he is supposed to be shooting the ball. Delonte, unlike Rondo, is a shooter. Playing at the two he is SUPPOSED to shoot. If I had a bag of rocks with me at the Heat game I would have been throwing them at him during that one. He turned down a lot of open shots that Rondo set him up for, choosing instead to “be the point guard”. The really egregious offenses came when Rondo was passing Delonte the ball as West came off of screens set under the basket. Delonte was wide open on at least two occasions for what were, in effect, free throws and he waited for his man to get to him so he could pass the ball into the post. What the hell is that about? If the shot clock isn’t running down, Delonte is almost guaranteed to pull the ball down and dribble no matter how open he is if the pass came from Rondo.
I’m not the only one who notices this, a lot of people on this board, and other boards, are grumbling about this. I picked up on this early on, but others are noticing. Rondo, in his three starts, has recorded 24 assists. How many were to West? ONE, a lay up on a fast break where if Delonte did take the shot Heinsohn would have thrown his drink at him. Rondo passes the ball more to Delonte than anyone else on this team and he gets one assist over three GAMES? During the same period of time Rondo has been assisted by West 3 times, even though Rajon, unlike Delonte, creates most of his own offense off of the dribble.
Delonte is out there throwing “Scalabrine upfakes to nobody” on open corner threes that Rajon is setting him up for. He is turning down open midrange jumps shots off of Rondo passes. He even passes off open layups on fastbreaks. He has been doing this for a while, and he does it when Telfair is out there too. I have to say this for Telfair, he’s been having a rocky season, but I have never seen him play in a selfish manner out there. Never a whiff, and I haven’t been that high on his level of play. If Rajon passes him the ball and he has a shot, he takes it, and he looks for Rondo while they are out there together.
by MikeDfromNP on Feb 9, 2007 5:48 PM EST reply actions
How do you think that Delonte is “battling” to prove that he should be the point guard when he is spending so much playing time at the SG spot? I think that Delonte likes Rajon, as do the other guys. He plays very hard and this group of guys likes that kind of player. They have seen enough of the Blounts of the league. That being said, Delonte is trying to “out point guard” Rajon while he is out there, and taking the easy shots that Rajon is setting him up for wouldn’t help his cause. It would just reinforce that he is a shooting guard and that Rajon is the point guard. What Delonte really needs to start thinking is “How do I most help this team?” Hurting us by turning down shots isn’t the way, IMO. He isn’t as good a point guard as Rajon on either end, but what he does very well is shoot and he’s a pretty good defender at the two. It is great to have a shooting guard who can make nice passes, but not when that guy is turning down open shots set up by the real point guard.
It should be noted, by the way, that the Celtics have averaged 24.3 assists per game against 12.0 turnovers since Rondo has taken over as the starting point guard. They were averaging 19.5 assists against 16.8 turnovers per game in the previous 45 games. That is a BIG difference.
by MikeDfromNP on Feb 9, 2007 5:49 PM EST reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Jeremy Lin’s teammate snaps a picture of his famous couch
- Dwight Howard picks a strange time to ask for more fourth quarter shots
- Spike Lee texts to thank the coach that cut Jeremy Lin before seeing him play
- LeBron threatened to beat up a heckler. You gotta problem with that, tough guy?
- Jason Whitlock apologizes for his unfunny Jeremy Lin comment on Twitter
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
