What's Next For Doc?

 I do not think that the fans have given Doc a free pass. Myself and others have been calling for his firing. personnally I thought he should never have been hired. Being charismatic doesn’t make you a great coach. Doc is definetly not a great coach.

Sorry, but Doc has to go. He had his chances with two teams and made nothing of it. Danny’s on the countdown too.
Things have gotten so bad, that this jerk from the New York Time decided it’s free season to go after former Celts
Old Celtics Untainted By Towering Failure
By HARVEY ARATON
ps, It’s pretty clear what he’s insinuating, and it makes me sick. give me a break.

Finally a great and sensible article about the failings of Doc!

DA’s offseason to do list
1—Draft Durrant
2—Trade for Gasol
3—Find a coach

I understand they need a new coach but those other two items are much more important

I agree. None of his teams have become better than the sum of their parts. He coddles them, finds excuses. I’m sure he’s a nice guy. Nice guys finish last in this league

“The bottom line is that Doc’s teams haven’t overachieved. They have not played larger than the sum of their parts.”

It’s really hard to buy into this logic because of the overhyped nature that fans put on thier own players going into seasons. Getting this group to 35 wins would have been overachieving (by two games according to the Vegas books) but 85% of the posters on this blog in a poll before the season had them winning at least 41. So is it that his teams have never overachieved or is it that the fan base so overinflates the values of the players that when he does overachieve its not going to be good enough?

It bothers me to have to agree with you but I cannot disagree with one word of your 2nd to last paragraph. I like Doc, my wife roots for him, I think the players respect him, but that paragraph says it all. Nothing more to say.

This topic is tired.

Wyc is on WEEI right now with D&C. He thinks Doc is doing a good job and that the Cs didn’t give Doc a full team. I have a sinking feeling that Doc will be back next season. >:( That would be the worst thing that could hapen (next to not winning the lottery). Keeping Doc means wasting another year of Paul’s career with a coach that doesn’t know how to coach or to win.

Scotty, you make an extremely interesting observation…I, for one, after a particularly exhuberant win (Rondo’s 29, I think) said, “Go for 50!”…Hah!, such a joke!
I also don’t understand why it is standard policy that a coach in a contract year would be less driven to coach translated to win???…
That being said, it is my opinion, and perhaps a lonely one, that Doc Rivers Overcoaches, that his players think too much, that they lack sponeaneity, and that they work rather than play basketball…Subsequently, they’re thinking mostly about what they can’t do instead of what they can do…There’s no joy in mudville…
Because of this, I think that Danny will look very hard at the possiblility of bringing in a fresh approach…It’s only restating the obvious to draw the brilliant conclusion that Doc Rivers is in trouble…Had it not been for the injuries, he would have perhaps been gone by now.

everyone has his/her pluses and minuses. with doc, if you do the math, i think the minuses are ahead. poor game coach, poor record(3yrs c’s orlando ), terrible defensive team, his insistence on using scal over kids, his burying players (currently- powe ),his inane substitutions, his excuses ( they have to show me in practice, they’re too young),his nice guyness (they don’t play with a mean hunger like perk once displayed), and with about 127 coaches (excepting clifford ray),the players don’t look like they are getting demonstrable skills given to them, and i am sure others can add more. his pluses- he is a good guy with an even demeanor, he is loyal to the bosses, he has them playing hard,pp seems to like him,and he is a positive father figure to a young team. rick carlisle and scott skiles are meaner and better, for example.doc and his crew have to go- keep clifford. i am tired of watching this undifferentiated jelly mass of a team perform. with the injuries,and bad habits, i don’t think a better coach this year would endanger the ping pong balls odds. danny can stay but i would put him on a short leash- a lot would depend on his coaching pick.

Doc cannot be allowed to coach the team the rest of this season. We have 34 more games to play, and it’s important that the team accomplish a few fundamental objectives in this time, such as playing team defense, attacking zone defenses, running the pick and roll, etc. etc. etc.

If Doc remains, the next coach will only have one month in training camp to teach these important fundamental skills. That’s not enough time. The team will stumble out of the gate again next year, and fans will have to dig really deep to find the enthusiasm to go through another frustrating year.

I think it will come down to where we pick – if we have #1 or 2, it might be enough to attract some good coaches here…if not, then yeah…we may see Doc.

Scotty said:
  “The bottom line is that Doc’s teams haven’t overachieved. They have not played larger than the sum of their parts.”

It’s really hard to buy into this logic because of the overhyped nature that fans put on thier own players going into seasons. Getting this group to 35 wins would have been overachieving (by two games according to the Vegas books) but 85% of the posters on this blog in a poll before the season had them winning at least 41. So is it that his teams have never overachieved or is it that the fan base so overinflates the values of the players that when he does overachieve its not going to be good enough?

Don’t forget his tenure in Orl Scotty – this is moved into “trend” territory with Doc.

â€Å"If they donâ€â"¢t let me see it through, then obviously I wasnâ€â"¢t dealt a good hand. But Iâ€â"¢m not worried about that. Honestly, Iâ€â"¢m not. When that day comes, I think things will work out. I really do."

How do you guys read this statement by Doc? It sounds to me like he’s saying that he will have been done wrong by the Cs if they fire him. Trying to make the Cs look bad if they fire him?

Don’t fall for it Danny! Fire that lousy coach!

Well for me its simple. If Rivers is allowed to coach a single game beyond this season, the Celtics will never again get a dime of my money. Oh I’ll still follow the team— so long as it doesn’t cost me anything—if only out of morbid curiosity.

Meanwhile, I think I’m going to become a Toronto Raptors fan, especially if they hire Mark Iavaroni.

Let me add that the difference between the Raptors of three years ago and the Celtics of three years ago is that the Raptors traded Vince Carter but the Celtics kept Paul Pierce. Look at where the two franchises are today.

Brick, I don’t think the Cs situation has anything to do with the fact that they kept Pierce while Toronto traded Vince. I think it has more to do with the poor job Danny has done in putting good players around Pierce.

Ok, back to the subject at hand…. FIRE DOC!

No, the Vince Carter trade— which was widely viewed at the time as a fire sale— enabled the Raptors to get Bosh, Villanueva (whom they traded for their quality point guard, T.J. Ford) and Bargnani. They then went out and got two of the best players in Europe for what amounts to peanuts in the NBA: Garbajosa (who is my first choice as rookie of the year) and Anthony Parker. Of course Boston had no room for Parker because it still had Pierce and that overpaid slug Szczerbiak playing the same position.

The relative position of the two teams today is DIRECTLY related to the choices that were made 3-4 years ago.

“Don’t forget his tenure in Orl Scotty – this is moved into "trend” territory with Doc."

I’ve always tried to figure out what happened in Orlando with Doc. The best I’ve come up with is they tremendously overachieved the year he won coach of the year, then the next year they added a couple pieces and everyone thought they’d make the jump. However, so much of what they did was based upon the chemistry that team had that they just couldn’t recapture.

Doc’s teams in Orlando weren’t especialy talented, just like this one isn’t. Do I think he deserves to coach next year, absolutely not BUT with this caveat this team right now doesn’t have a ‘coaching problem’ it has a ‘lack of accountability’ problem. The three people most visible in management of this team consistently pass the buck, even to the point where the buck has nowhere to be passed and no one’s accountable.

As is this team is pitiful. Even if Pierce were healthy this isn’t a quality team, in fact the only thing that’s keeping most on here from taking a high dive off their nearest bridge is the hope that Oden or Durant ends up in Green. Why would anyone think that Wyc is going to be willing to pay for a winner, that Danny can put together a winner and Doc can coach a winner when there’s no evidence to show that any of this is likely? At some point here someone needs to step to the plate and take some responsibility, and more than likely can everyone below them.

Interesting but true fact, the last two teams to truly tank were Denver and Cleveland a few years back. Of everyone in those orgs at the time only three people are still with those two teams three years later. If we end up drafting Oden or Durant it will be interesting to see if history repeats itself.

Paul Silas would be great.

The Carter trade was a giveaway. But it made the team bad enough to get a #4 pick in the 2003 draft, which they used to get Bosh (they could have had Dwayne Wade also, who went at #5). That was the same draft in which the Celtics got Banks and Perkins.

The next year, 2004, the Raptors completely blew the draft by taking Araujo with pick #8, when they could have had Biedrins or Al Jefferson.
But even so, the Carter deal created the potential to draft an impact player.

In 2005 the Raptors used pick #7 to select Villanueva, who has had a much greated impact than Gerald Green, picked by Boston 10 slots later.

And finally in 2006 they lucked out and got #1 overall to get Bargnani.

So, would you rather have Pierce today, or would you rather have Bosh, T.J. Ford and Bargnani? You would also have Jefferson or Biedrins, because Ainge wouldn’t have been dumb enough to waste that #7 pick on Araujo.

Count me in with the fire Doc now minority.

Of course he needs to be fired now. But it isn’t going to happen. Pierce probably needs to be traded now. But that isn’t going to happen either.

But Rivers better be gone before the next Celtic marketeer calls me to renew my ticket package.

ANY coach that demands his players be responsible for their defensive assignments would be better.

Doc & his staff don’t appear to coach much defense & you see that played out almost every single game. The repercussions for a missed assignment seem to be Doc making a face & a passing comment the next time the player sits down.

Yes, these guys are young. But that is exactly why they should concentrate on D, taking care of the ball, forcing turnovers, etc. etc.

Offense isn’t brilliant either. They should subtract a dollar from the players & coaches salary every time someone misses a open layup.

I’d be shocked if Doc came back. Danny & Wyc gave him 3 seasons. Even with the injuries, drafts & trades, this team should have forged SOME kind of identity by now. There isn’t one, unless you count losing consistantly as an identity.

If the losing record, lack of fundamentals and inability to close out games isn’t enough, the lack of any kind of direction should be the deciding factor.

Better coaches have been fired because their teams just stopped listening after a few years of hearing the same voice (Silas, Carlisle, Scott, Sanders, etc.) That’s the least of Doc’s issues, but it could be the one that decides his fate.

If the the coaching staff is retained for another season, its another season of poor direction. I don’t want the coaching staff anywhere near the new rookie(s), for sake that he messes him up.

Who cares if the players are listening? The proof is in the pudding, and this pudding is rancid. Most high school coaches would be fired if their teams comprised of 16 and 17 year-olds were this disorganized.

For Grousbeck to come on the radio and state that Rivers is doing a good job is simply an insult to the fans. Doesn’t he realize that anyone can see that this emperor isn’t wearing any clothes?

Excellent job of cutting through the BS, Jeff.

“For Grousbeck to come on the radio and state that Rivers is doing a good job is simply an insult to the fans. Doesn’t he realize that anyone can see that this emperor isn’t wearing any clothes?”

Lack of accountibility. If Danny has no accountibility to Grousbeck and Doc has none to Danny by orginizational structure the players won’t have any to Doc.

Danny hiring a new coach isn’t going to change the root of the problem. It might bring short term change but over the long haul?

Well Scotty, it depends on who they hire.

All right, I read Jeff’s piece and saw the 36 comments and bet my wife that there not a single one of the comments would disagree with the conclusion…Doc’s gotta go. And everyone did but one, seemingly…..Scotty, what is the story? are you equivocating? You seemed to back off your first post…No peer pressure but do you really think Doc is in any position to be given of a fresh shot next year, with a full roster (hopefully inclusive of Oden or Durant)? Regardless of you opinion of Danny and Co. – an opinion with which I disagree – do you really think next years team will be, in an way, better served with Doc still around. Is the argument about continuity? That the ‘kids’ really like him? Is there any argument that he is one of the worst game planners/ game managers in the NBA? Please, I was so sure that this was the one incontrovertible position shared across Celtics nation -save for Wyc (and maybe Danny) -hmmm, is that you Grousbeck? If so,I hold you good for the $20 I just lost…

I for one like Doc, and I guess I’m in the minority

From afar his done a capable job with the personal handed to him.

1.) He has to be a father to all these kids

2.) Has to teach them not only Basketball it seems but life as well

3.) He has been a big help in making Paul Pierce a better basketball player

4.) I don’t believe there is another coach capable of taking this young group and being able to develop it with the “Patience” he has

5.) Some coaches don’t like taking the heat in this town and for one he has taken as much as anyone I’ve ever seen including Don Zimmer

Many coaches today need to be everything to a team and Doc has been just that.

Is he perfect “HELL NO” but for the most part he has done an admirable job.

K.C. Jones for all his wins had Bird, McHale, Parrish, Johnson, Ainge, Walton

Doc has Paul Pierce

What’s next for Cry Me? He finishes out the season, while getting acolades from Wyc/Danny for doing a good job under the circumstances. Next, he gets a nice pay day after an agreement is reached where he leaves the team as head coach. Finally, he lands a cushy job in the broadcast booth and lives happily ever after. I’m jealous.

“No peer pressure but do you really think Doc is in any position to be given of a fresh shot next year, with a full roster (hopefully inclusive of Oden or Durant)?”

Nope. But I’m not of the belief that there will be a huge overall improvement unless Grousbeck or Ainge change thier attitudes. To make it with the current system we’ve got running the team we’ll have to hire a coach whose willing to take on complete responsibility for what happens on the court even though those above him are unwilling to take any. How many great coaches do you see who would be willing to take that on?

There’s just some of Jeff’s reasoning that I disagree with. I don’t feel you can say Doc’s teams have never overachieved when the expections being placed on them by the fan base is a gross overachievement to begin with. If this team finished close to .500 they’d have grossly overachieved.

In the end I think Doc’s being made the scapegoat, which there always is when expectations aren’t met. He should be fired, not ‘allowed to resign’ at the end of the season. Let some other hack be here on an interim basis but someone take some measure of accountibility. That’s all I ask.

One more thing,

It’s really not easy getting into these kids heads, for some of them, there minds are else where…….

There comes a point when a light bulb switch goes off in there brains and they get it….

I’ve coached for over 20 years and still some kids I thought got it just couldn’t do it on the court, where others seemed to get it and go out and follow through with less talent.

Doc is in a difficult position, one that no other coach in this league has ever experienced, and I’m talking all these youths who should be in college playing a man’s game.

Just take note to that before everyone in here wants to bash Doc’s brain in.

He won’t get fired this season.
Owners are waiting to see if he quits before the losing streak gets to 24. No coach wants his name included in that stat.

If they fire him they have to pay the remainder of the contract, he quits they are clear of it.

If I owed 5 million, I’d let him stew in the pressure pot till well done.

Nice piece Jeff. I agree with you Ancient Red. Sadly, this isn’t about fariness. The team needs a fresh start, so Doc will go at the end of the season. Let’s hope Danny will too. Some justice for saddling Doc with this team.

maybe it should be about fairnesss, give him next season

Well anyone can draft well with pick no. 1 or pick no. 2. It takes skill to draft well with picks in the second half of the first round. That’s where Ainge has done well.

Jeff,

We all learn from our mistakes and tend to growth with our jobs. Is Danny a better GM now than when he took over the position?

How well Danny does this off-season with the Pick and bringing in a quality Veteran will determine that.

For the most part, the only mistake I see was his first trade, Antoine to Dallas for Lafrentz

His last trade was getting rid of the contract more than anything and what he will be able to do with Ratliff’s once it expires.

Bringing in Telfair was a hit or miss in my mind.

Learning from his mistakes? I see the Wally trade as a duplicate of the Raef trade. Getting rid of a player he didn’t like for an injured player with a monster contract. Regarding Telfairy…MISS…..

He has one more year left in his contract which will prob save his coaching career. He will have a high draft pick and more mature younger team and paul pierce back.

If he doesn’t the celts in a decent playoff spot(not lower than 6th) in the eastern, i’ll look for him to be fired

If he does get us in 6th and below with the kind of team we will have, no doubt he will get an extension(danny is aching to give him an extension since they are good buddies).

Personally i want him out no matter what as he has absolutely no clue how to coach a team during a game. I’d give that he is a good coach off the court teaching basics but when it comes to strategy he knows very little.

Anyways he will get his last huge chance next year and lucky for him his team will be better than he could make it to be by himself

Oh yeah, it only cost us the seventh pick in the draft to lose one year of Raef’s salary. I shudder to think what it will cost us to get rid of Zoey’s.

If many of you remember, he needed to get out of Blount’s contract and rid of Davis who was a head case almost the same as how Indiana was rid of Jackson and Harrington to make the quality of life around the team better.

At that time management thought that having Blount and Davis would have been a cancer for the young guys. As it stands Blount has 4 years left and Davis has 2 years left on his contract while we have 2 years left on Wally’s contract.

For my part doc has done an outstanding Job of putting a team on the floor that has comepeted every single game in every year he has been the coach. Doc has never has talent to win with. not even his first year when they went to the first round of the playoffs. remember how fustrated how we were with the play of walker and pierce that year and enamered with Jeffersons future. Doc has done well to school and prpare the youth for the NBA and deserves to be there as they begin to win. I suspect next year would be a good year to start the evaluating process on wins and losses. Of course he could have been out “coached” if he was limited in how he could instruct players on what to excute and how to perform. Those guys had no knowledge of the X’s and O’s of Basketball you all know that. plus he had players Pierce Davis Blount walker et al who was b=not totally cooperative. I think the critic on this blog has had it in for Doc because he was not a celtic, and you have not been able to let the fact speak for themselves. too you want to prove what great basketball gurus you all are thus you have tainted the work of a very good coach. for may part we need to keep Doc to see this turn around through. at a minimium he should be given a two year extension on his contract. who could have won with the players we had over the past few years? No one!

Who traded for Davis and signed Blount to the contract? Who created the problem that needed to be “fixed”? By the way, Blount seems to be doing pretty well in Minnesota.

I still would rather have 2 healthy bodies than a broken down, no D jump shooter, who just happens to be the 32nd highest paid player in the league).

Sorry, Oh Danny Boy has made more than one mistake and has nobody to blame but himself.

Just because Ainge has made mistakes doesn’t mean Rivers is a good coach.

These are professional basketball players making good money, and to my knowledge there is no one on the roster who is mentally retarded. I don’t care how many injuries they have, how old they are or what their talent level is relative to the rest of the league. We have a right to expect a team where the players know where they are supposed to be on offense and defense. Instead we have a disorganized mess. It was a disorganized mess when everyone was healthy and it’s a mess now. That is a lack of good coaching, plain and simple.

It’s disappointing to me that not everyone here agrees wholeheartedly with Brickowski’s recent comment. If you watch basketball at all, you can tell if a team is well coached, poorly coached, or not coached at all.

Doc was dealt a bad hand… then, he went all in.

Should Danny have signed Mr. 38% for four years at the reduced 12-14 million per year that 38% was willing to accept and which would at the time have pleased a number of his (Ainge’s) most critical posters. By Monday Iverson will have missed 6 of the last 7 games (sprained ankle, so actually he would have blended right in with the rest of our injury-prone team), while Denver has gone from playing .600 before getting Iverson to below .400 since his acquisition. I remember, too, during the preseason how many posters were clamoring to trade Jeff for Stromile Swift, and now it’s for Gasol. Perhaps next year it will be for Duncan.

“Should Danny have signed Mr. 38% for four years at the reduced 12-14 million per year that 38% was willing to accept and which would at the time have pleased a number of his (Ainge’s) most critical posters.”

Nope, he should have waited a year then dealt him to Atlanta for Jason Terry and a first round pick :’(

you’ve got it exactly right Scotty. Or failing that, just let Walker’s deal expire and work the same kind of sign and trade (for expiring contracts and picks) that he did when he shipped Twoine off to Miami.

There is no question that if Rivers is fired, about 90% of the so-called experts will write columns blasting Ainge and saying it wasn’t really Doc’s fault. Most people (especially in the media) like Rivers more than they like Ainge, and ex players and coaches always flock to the defense of a fired coach. Ainge will take incredible grief from the Greg Anthonys and Tim Leglers of the world.

So what? As I said before, Ainge may the worst general manager in the history of earth (actually Rick Pitino and Scott Layden were worse) but that doesn’t make Rivers a good coach.

Interesting comment from one of the posters on a Truehoop article about Bird, Ainge, Mchale as GM’s versus Thomas as a GM. The only reason Im putting it up is because it directly relates to this topic of the coaching staff (I still refuse to say his name)…

“I dearly hope Boston doesn’t get one of the top 2 picks, for the sake of either Oden or Durant. In Year Three they’ll be guaranteed to be the same player they are at the beginning of Year One.” – by some poster named mr.body.

That alone, is reason enough to get rid of this coaching staff (except for Ray).

Jeff, while I post here quite often, I can admit to not remembering all of the site rules. If there is a problem with me quoting another poster from another site, forgive me.

“"Should Danny have signed Mr. 38% for four years at the reduced 12-14 million per year that 38% was willing to accept and which would at the time have pleased a number of his (Ainge’s) most critical posters.”

Nope, he should have waited a year then dealt him to Atlanta for Jason Terry and a first round pick"

Except that Walker seemed to be making it perfectly clear that if he didn’t get his max contract extension, there was going to be trouble. It’s hard to blame Ainge for wanting to avoid a year or two or Walker as a locker room cancer. Remember, Walker mostly behaved himself in Dallas in hopes of getting a new contract. There’s no guarantee that he would have done the same in Boston, or that Atlanta would have been willing to trade for him then.

Having said that, it is really obvious that Ainge should have pulled the plug on the deal when that “hot spot” showed up during Raef’s physical. Trading Walker for a big like Raef was one thing. Trading for damaged goods was something else.

Honestly, Ainge’s biggest mistake was keeping Jim O’Brien around. Once Ainge knew he wasn’t on board with “The Vision”, he should have canned him. There would have been complaints, but Ainge could have gotten past it. But when O’Brien quit in the middle of the season, it’s put Ainge in the bullseye of the media.

Mike

I’m not a big Doc River’s fan. However, through all the losing and playing nothing but the kids he’s kept the team morale up. They play hard for him.

However, I don’t see any type of defensive concept. His offense is all right but could be better. And I don’t always like his sub pattern.

I’m not sure that we can really judge him based on this year and part of last year. Management has made the decision to develop the kids and in the NBA, like most pro leagues, kids get eaten.

That’s my 5 cents. For what it’s worth.

Scotty said:
  “Should Danny have signed Mr. 38% for four years at the reduced 12-14 million per year that 38% was willing to accept and which would at the time have pleased a number of his (Ainge’s) most critical posters.”

Nope, he should have waited a year then dealt him to Atlanta for Jason Terry and a first round pick

Sure thing, Scotty. Trades like that work in the fantasy world of Celticsblog.com.

Give the fans a break. Some new blood at the helm would be nice. How about Paul Silas, DJ, or Paul Westphal. Someone who played for Boston.

“Sure thing, Scotty. Trades like that work in the fantasy world of Celticsblog.com.”

No, that’s just what Atlanta dealt him and gasp Tony Delk for the following year. Wait, who else was dealt to Dallas in that Walker/LaFrentz deal….

It’s always interesting when evaluating Danny most people add the 12 derivatives of that deal to show Danny did well, but no one is ever comfortable talking about how those players were flipped by the teams Danny dealt them too….

Of course Doc wants to continue coaching the Celtics; he does not have eslewhere to go when he is released by the Celts. Wouldnt you?

I say keep Doc until he takes us to the promised land – Rock Bottom.