West Will Play (& Start?)

Even though I think Rondo diserved more credit, I see what Doc is saying.

Does Doc think the fans are stupid or what? A blind man can see the team performs better with Rondo on the floor.

I agree with Doc on this one. I thought Rondo was pretty lousy versus Chicago minus the first quarter. However, I do think it is debatable whether West is actually a better option. At this point it looks like Doc has settled on West being his starting pg. That won’t change until Rondo is undeniably and consistently superior to West and I am not sure he is there yet.

Wins and leading.. you mean like what Delonte’s proven he can deliver during this glorious season?

Like others are saying I get Doc’s point, but Rondo better get some nice minutes during the stretch run. He deserves it.

Does anyone have a tally as to how many times this season Delonte has been “banged up” and wanted to “gut it out” but had to be restrained by a straightjacket/ropes/chains because “he’s such a competitor.” Call me curmudgeon, but I’m sick of it. Staying healthy is a skill and Delonte lacks it. He’s not strong enough and plays recklessly. It seems almost like he gets credit for getting injured all the time. I think Rondo and DWest both have serious flaws, but at this point I’d rather see what Rondo can do since Dwest is a known quantity {a combo guard who should be 6th or 7th man on a good team). I know Doc wants to win games but I’d rather he focus more on developing the roster.

geez, can somebody please bludgeon doc right now. what is this man babbling about?

Well, quite apart from the standard laments from the “hate Delonte” crowd, the fact remains that on Sunday the team scored 76 points. Pierce didn’t get the ball where he likes it and Jefferson didn’t get the ball at all. The offense consisted of Rondo and Telfair dribbling around alot and making individual moves, plus Green and Scalabrine launching from 30 feet. That has to change.

I am so sick of DOC, just who does he think was at the point during the 18 game losing streak. He is so blinded by West that he can’t offer anything resembling an objective comment when it comes to Rondo or Telfair.

Whatever happened to Powe getting a lot of minutes like Doc said he had earned ? Unfortunately, he is trying to scratch out a few more meanlingness wins at the expense of development. Infact, one could argue the point that from this point on each win is more harmful than helpful to the longterm success of the franchise.

Rajon gives you numbers? LOL, man, the stats are actually the last thing that matter with him. This should be fun, though. We just played the Bulls and got into the fourth quarter only down by 3 – against a team the absolutely owns us. We have no homecourt advantage, being the worst home team in the league. Let’s see how a West led team fares. I’m expecting an absolute crushing, and would expect that if Delonte was healthy.

Doc didn’t think he played all that well against the Bulls? I guess that was the reason he played him 12 more minutes than any other Celtic, because he just wasn’t getting the job done.

Honestly, I didn’t say so at the time because I knew that people would bash me as a Rondo fan boy, but I thought Doc was setting the kid up to fail. He wouldn’t let him get any rest. He played him with Bassy as much as possible, and had Bassy running the show with Rajon at the two most of that time. He took the ball out his hands as much as possible in the halfcourt. In other words, he did the very things that would hurt Rajon, and the team. Either he is a complete moron, or he was intentionally trying to make him look bad. After reading his comments, I think that it was the latter.

He is so blinded by West that he can’t offer anything resembling an objective comment when it comes to Rondo or Telfair.

Objectively, Rondo shot 5-15, the teams – .387, and the team lost by 16 from Chicago. I don’t think this “offering” sounds any better. But it is certainly objective, as it is a statement of fact.

Even in the Seattle game it was Bassy who helped the team turn the game around.

You can argue that Rondo kept the C’s “in the game” early on but they were down by double digits most of the first half.

Let’s face it when Rondo puts up good offensive numbers it’s not a good thing….generally it means the team is going away from what it wants to do.

Like Jason Kidd, you don’t want Rondo scoring a whole bunch of points…you want him to direct the offense and make the right passes and decisions.

Rondo isn’t any where close to JKidd mind you…but you don’t want him scoring or taking 10 shots a game.

Let’s not forget that Rondo came into this season with two years of college basketball under his belt. West played three years of college and is in his third NBA season having played significant minutes all three years. He has far more experience he should be better than Rondo at this point .

I guarantee you as Rondo gains experience he will be more of an impact player than West.

I don’t want Rondo scoring. I just want to know that he can score. So that his man defends him and not Pierce or Jefferson.

Incidentally, when Rondo was manning the point for almost a full game, both Pierce and Jefferson did poorly. Hmmmmmm.

Just in case anyone was wondering why I said that Doc would do something like that, it is quite simple: Doc is 100% about his system. He doesn’t care about defense or rebounding or any of that “junk”, he cares about his offensive system. A system that is based around wings actually running the offense and where we do not run, because that would just be terrible.

You have to understand that if Doc’s system was “executed” the way it should be, that we would be a good team. It isn’t that his system is flawed, no it couldn’t be that at all, it is the players who fail him. They failed him against the Pacers in the playoffs, they failed him last season when we were mostly healthy and Paul was having a career year, and they are failing him now. The players also failed him in Orlando, too. Doc’s system is perfect, as any system designed by Mike Fratello would be. Even though that system has a long record of playoff failure and regular season disaster behind it, if Doc had the right players to run it, it would result in success.

Rondo is all wrong for that system. What he does is penetrate into the paint and set up others for open shots – who wins that way? He plays extremely agressive defense – when has that ever helped a team win? He does the little things – which only gets you a start if you are Brian Scalabrine in Doc’s system. He is the second best rebounding PG in the game, after Jason Kidd – when has rebounding ever helped a team win?

No, no, the outcome of games is overrated. Outscoring the other team is a minor thing in basketball. It is better to have Delonte and his minus 180 plus/minus at the point in there than Rondo and his plus 2, in MORE minutes at the point, because he is a better fit into Doc’s system. The system can’t be flawed, can it? It has worked so well for us, and for the Magic, hasn’t it?

The day that management announces that Doc is no longer the Celtics’ coach, Red will light up a cigar in heaven.

My high school coach was light years beyond the good doctor.

I don’t want Rondo scoring. I just want to know that he can score. So that his man defends him and not Pierce or Jefferson.

Incidentally, when Rondo was manning the point for almost a full game, both Pierce and Jefferson did poorly. Hmmmmmm.

Really, I thought that Rondo was forced to play the two for long streatches while Bassy was running the point. That was a good move. Did you actually watch the game, or did you look at a box score and fill in the blanks afterwards?

Flexi —

Completely agree. And what is West “gutting it out” for exactly? To play at 70% effectiveness and risk re-injuring himself in a meaningless game in which we’re likely going to lose? If we were a good team, and he was a difference-maker, and something was on the line, e.g., a playoff berth, then I would really appreciate his toughness and would welcome him back at not-quite full-strength. But this is clearly not the case.

He should be forbidden from playing until he’s healed. It’s in his interest, and in the team’s interest, and if Doc can’t see that, it’s reason #937 why he’s a horrific coach.

Rondo is just the next false savior from Tommy Heinsohn and the rest of the Celtics PR department, just like Brandon Hunter was going to be the next Charles Barkley,

There is a reason why Rondo slipped into the 20’s in the draft. He has the potential to become a good player, but he is at least 2-3 years away.

West has his flaws too, but West has spent 2 more years learning the offense and studying film. West can also shoot the ball.

Actually I hope West has a terrible night tomorow, along with the rest of the Celtics. Wins against the Bulls are not something that the Celtics can afford right now. On the other hand, they can’t hold West out for so long that David Stern gets suspicious. He does have the power to take away draft choices if he thinks a team is tanking.

I don’t want Rondo scoring. I just want to know that he can score. So that his man defends him and not Pierce or Jefferson.

Incidentally, when Rondo was manning the point for almost a full game, both Pierce and Jefferson did poorly. Hmmmmmm.


Really, I thought that Rondo was forced to play the two for long streatches while Bassy was running the point. That was a good move. Did you actually watch the game, or did you look at a box score and fill in the blanks afterwards?

Incidentally, it still doesn’t matter whether you play the 1 or the 2 when your man sags off you to help with the 2 scorers on the team.

There is this sweet tool called full play-by-play at nba.com that can tell poor sods like me who are stranded in Europe for a time how and what exactly players do. So I can tell you right now that Rondo missed 6 jump shots that game. But I’ll give you some credit – he also missed almost as many layups. So yeah, I am pretty sure the Bulls dared him to make his shot, and he kind of failed.

Oh, by the way, the Chicago backcourt combined for almost 50 points and 11 assists…

Its amazing just how bad Doc is proving to be. I’m generally a fan of Danny Ainge, but I’m starting to resent him for hiring doc more than any other questionable move over the past few years. There is no one that could make a valid argument that Delonte deserves to start over Rondo right now. At worst, they are equals….Delonte has proven that he is a good NBA combo guard in the rare times he is healthy….Rondo appears to have upside and has pulled even with Delonte with only 3/4 of a year experience. You have to give him time to develop…and is there a better time than right now?

Doc can’t be gone soon enough for me. I despise coaches criticizing their players, especially a rookie. Rondo hasn’t been consistent, but we haven’t had a young PG show this much potential in years. Instead of trying to build up the young man’s confidence, Doc rambles to the media about his ineffectiveness.

I have nothing against DW, but he’s not a PG. Given that we can’t make the playoffs this year, there’s no excuse for RR not getting the lion’s share of time at the point…..I’ll lift my hands in praise to God when Doc moves on to his next job, whatever it may be.

Well the Bobcats finally won a game. The Magic ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Doc overplayed Rondo against Chicago, it is best for Rondo that West comes back so Rondo can do what Rondo is supposed to do. Telfair wasn’t taking or even attempting shots, of which they need from the other guard while Rondo is on the floor. I think it will make Rondo’s job easier to play less than 46 minutes(omg.. I kept yelling to give the kid a break) and spread the floor with West being a shooter.

CsfanNH

It doesn’t matter to me who starts and who comes off the bench West v Rondo. Split the baby in half.

Let the guy doing the better job get 25 min. verse 15 min. and if one or the other is on “fire” make it 30-10.

All things being equal, I want Rondo getting the experience and just as much playing time; that again being if all else is equal.

Anymore though of West trying to rush back from injury and gets injured again then to me he can go to the back of the line with Telfair.

Why not start BOTH Rondo and West in the backcourt? I know this would be a small backcourt, and it would push either Green or (unfortunately ;) ) Scal outof the starting rotation…but Rondos strengths are Wests weaknesses, and vice versa.

Until Rondo develops a shot and/or Green becomes a consistent offensive player, Rondo and West should start in the backcourt together.

But this just makes too much sense for Doc to do.

  I don’t want Rondo scoring. I just want to know that he can score. So that his man defends him and not Pierce or Jefferson.

Incidentally, when Rondo was manning the point for almost a full game, both Pierce and Jefferson did poorly. Hmmmmmm.

Really, I thought that Rondo was forced to play the two for long streatches while Bassy was running the point. That was a good move. Did you actually watch the game, or did you look at a box score and fill in the blanks afterwards?

Incidentally, it still doesn’t matter whether you play the 1 or the 2 when your man sags off you to help with the 2 scorers on the team.

There is this sweet tool called full play-by-play at nba.com that can tell poor sods like me who are stranded in Europe for a time how and what exactly players do. So I can tell you right now that Rondo missed 6 jump shots that game. But I’ll give you some credit – he also missed almost as many layups. So yeah, I am pretty sure the Bulls dared him to make his shot, and he kind of failed.

Oh, by the way, the Chicago backcourt combined for almost 50 points and 11 assists…

At least you were retroactivly honest about not watching the game, most people would claim that they did. Still, it wasn’t too hard for me to see that you didn’t watch it, with the things that you were saying.

Rondo was the best Celtic player, by far, in the first half. He was carrying the team on his back leading them in scoring, assists, rebounds and steals. He was active at both ends, and basically kept them in the game while Paul was horrible and Al was timid.

In the second half, Doc decided to take the ball out of his hands. Why? He felt that Paul and Al weren’t involved enough. He didn’t factor in that Paul was getting dominated by a guy who just had his number, or that Rondo was already getting Al the ball, and that Al was just not being aggressive. Still they hung in there, and Rondo kept on making solid passes and playing good defense.

It was the beginning of the fourth quarter that killed us. Rondo was kept in the game while Bassy, for no good reason at all, was running the point. Either Rondo should have been sitting and getting some much needed rest (the best option), or Bassy should have been playing off of Rajon, or not in the game at all, as Ray played very well in the first half. Rajon finally ran out of gas, and the team defense fell apart. They didn’t score because Rajon did not have the ball in his hands and Bassy couldn’t get anything going. Game over.

Just for your information, it matters a great deal whether or not a guy is playing at the 1 or the 2 spot, if that guy has the speed and creativity of Rondo. You can’t play off of Rondo if he has the ball in his hands. He just gets right into the paint, which is exactly where he wants to be anyways, and where he is most dangerous. Standing in the corner, on the other hand, is not a good thing for him.

He wasn’t missing bunnies, by the way. They were contested shots, and just wouldn’t go down. You talk as if shooting a lay up in Ben Wallace’s face is an easy thing to do. It is not. He put up a couple of ugly jumpers, but that happens. I sure as hell didn’t see better coming from the others.

to me it’s not rondo vs west. deng was all over pp and al was intimidated by wallace. i like to see rondo play because he needs to develop and he won’t do that on the pine. this summer he needs to shoot thousands of shots and maybe have a shooting coach check in with him periodically.after 3 years in college, likewise in the pros where in the heck is delonte’s right hand shot and dribble?

I agree Rondo and West should start in the back court. When went small we cam back from an 11 point deficit. However, The key is Al, he has got to be aggressive and having West’s shooting ability will help. I wish Gerald right now had Tony’s mentality. He would be a perennial all star. Together, until Rondo forms a consistent jumper they are the best 1 we have.

Thomas got an extension, are sh***tn me. Is Doc next? I’m not a Doc hater like a lot of you but we have to look at other potential coaches.

Rondo played 3 seasons under Tubby Smith. Cut the kid some slack.

I do agree that he better get in the gym this offseason and shoot…shoot…and shoot.

And after hes done that, he should shoot…and shoot…and shoot.

Hes gonna need to develop a respectable shot to 1) open things up for other players, such as Al down low or Pierce slashing to the basket and 2) prevent his defenders from being able to sag off him…which would reduce his ability to penetrate and make it more difficult to find open players.

At least you were retroactivly honest about not watching the game, most people would claim that they did. Still, it wasn’t too hard for me to see that you didn’t watch it, with the things that you were saying.

I can’t claim I watch the games. I am out in Europe for the season, so the best thing I can hope for is that the other means of information I have will not give me a distorted picture.

I like both DWest and Rondo, but they both have issues. I agree with the analysts in this case. Neither is a starting quailty PG on a playoff team at this point. West lacks consistancy. Rondo lacks any kind of reliable shot (I’d say teams should foul him every time, since he can’t hit a FT, but he blows layups at a rate not seen since AW left town)

In West’s defense, I felt he had won the starting PG job at the beginning of the season. Doc’s jerking him around couldn’t have helped his confidence. It took him a half season to get back on track.