The Leftovers

leave this teams best players in the game, and they don’t win much either. Thats why we’re where we are. Even with PP, we’re a 500 team.

Jeff, your ranking seems to be pretty close to the mark with the possible exception of Rondo/West. As an “all purpose player” West gets the nod but as the PG of the future and as the ENGINE that makes this team run, Rondo is the overwhelming favorite (despite his warts).

Going a step further, this team is grossly deficient in defensive “stoppers”. While Wally provides INSTANT offense he’s admittedly a liability on defense. One could say the same for Gerald Green and others. Even Rondo, despite his surprising defense, still has trouble staying in front of swift PGs (as seen last night).

What’s the point? Looking forward to the draft and a possible #1 selection, Durant is by far the best player available and probably has the greatest upside. But what this team needs, unfortunately, is an inside “vacuum cleaner” to scoop up speedy PGs on their way to the basket. With such inside dominance, our perimeter defenders can play up on their man cancelling outside offense while knowing that the inside is secure. Oden can provide this advantage but ALAS! he’s so RAW in basketball IQ that all we can hope for is that his vast potential will somehow blossom into the player he could be!

Thus, what does Danny do if he gets the #1 pick? Wasn’t Kandi once touted as the SAVIOR and what a colossal mistake he turned out to be. Does one take a chance on Oden’s “potential” or on Durant’s demonstrated prowess as a PLAYER? The argument that we have enough shooters and therefore don’t need what Durant can provide is faulted in the same manner that Michael Jordan was only the 3rd best player in his draft class.

Agree with VTBill, although I would give this team a slight benefit of the doubt and say that NEXT year — with everyone healthy — they’ll be slightly better than .500 because of how much the kids grew up this year. The question becomes how much impact a draft pick and/or a veteran will improve them.
Frankly, I think the biggest concern next year will be chemistry. They now have some interesting parts, but how will they all fit? (Particularly players like Wally and Gomes and Allen, all small forwards in a way.) It will be interesting, but hopefully not maddening.
I agree with Peter May. Go after Grant Hill. He’s on the downside, but what a great guy to have on the bench/in the lockerroom. I’d take him at 14 ppg or 10 ppg.

My question would be: How many freshmen, not 4-year college, 7-foot centers have ever looked as good as Greg Oden? A great big man always puts his team in the hunt for a title. As for the Michael Jordan reference, I don’t think the Bulls win a bunch of titles if they had to contend with a Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Malone or Olajuwon led team.

what an astoundingly pitiful and bad luck year. we have been wishing 1,2, for half a year. danny’s mettle will really be tested if it,s 3 and above. let’s hope the luck changes but good teams donot rely on luck

Yes! Agreed! But is Oden the “second coming” of Russell, Kareem Malone or Olajuwon or another reincarnation of the Kandiman? If the “second-coming” it’s a NO BRAINER, if it’s another unrealized dream our chance for #17 just evaporated!

I posed this drafting quandry because of concern about the implications of Danny’s comment that past draft mistakes have been made when GMs placed too much faith in SIZE at the expense of TALENT.

Jeff coming from a LONG time reader, and with lots of love for CB… are you crazy?

[quote}Green – only ahead of Scal for his ability to score[/quote]

Back to Danny referencing past drafting mistakes…overweighting size over talent. Danny didn’t necessarily imply Oden vs Durant. He might just have easily been thinking about our selection if we pick 3rd. Danny seems to be high on Brewer (ala Mike Gordan) who is only 6’7" when this team could use inside help.

   Grant Hill might be a great pick if Pierce were moved, but I couldn’t see the value he’d see in coming to Boston. I’ve always thought PP should stay a Celtic, but his recent comments about being a superstar on a bad team really bother me. Stars don’t call themselves stars, and his comments struck me as being a diservice to the team. He may be a great scorer and rebounder, but the jury is far from in on his being a great player. I’d make a determined effort to move him this summer. We may not get equal value, but we might. Players like J O’Neil and Lamar Odom might be available, and lesser players like Magette might be part of some multi player deals. The draft holds the key to everything. Our positioning makes me think that only the top pick makes sense to keep Pierce.

Re Hobbs; Is Oden the “consensus” #1 pick? While Kandi may not have been a “consensus” #1 pick, his size and potential were obviously OVERWEIGHTED.

Durant has accomplished what NO OTHER freshman has ever accomplished. It’s not a “no brainer” but a difficult decision for whoever drafts first. For those teams with size inside Durant is the OBVIOUS choice. In our case, we’re desperate for an inside INTIMIDATOR. Oden appears to be the obvious choice but he has “mucho” warts to his game, that among them is considerable immaturity. Will he remain “immature” ala Ron Artest or will he become"the second coming"?

Should we get to choose first, our FUTURE hangs in the balance!

   Did not Danny make TWO trips to China to look at Yi?? That’s a LOT of time in the air unless he was really serious. I’d really like Hibbard if we are #3 or lower, but what does an amateur like me know? (I look at Hibbard and see Mutombo with an offense and he MIGHT turn out to be better then Oden). I suspect Danny is looking at Yi instead.

Actually Roy,

Charlotte hasn’t had anywhere the number of games lost to injury by top four (or even top seven) players that we have this year. Only NO/Ok and Milwaukee are evenclose. And you can see how well they’re doing.

Kandi was never touted as a savior.

Oden shoots with either hand, what 19 year old center can do that? He may be young, it may take 3- 5 years to put a contender around him but he is by far the #1 pick.

Re Hobbs; You must admit that depending on who gets the #1 pick, Durant may be selected AHEAD of Oden. Re Durant, it’s also been said that he’s REMARKABLY mature for his age.

Let’s open (and quickly close) another “basket of worms”. Do you think it was PURELY chance that Danny sat next to Durant’s mother? Does your answer imply that Danny may be “leaning” in that direction?

The kid from Washington will be the #3 (Spencer Hawes).

IMHO – I think it was set up by the Texas alumni. With the #2 pick, Durant is the only choice. If Boston gets the #1 Oden will be the selection.

Powe is bad, folks. Should be ranked only above Pinckney. He will be cut in off season.

Here’s the ???
Say we get the third selection, who does Minnesota draft with it? in the deal to get Garnett.

I agree Jeff but I also wonder as some of the other posts say how many games we would be winning right now if we had a completely healthy team? we probably would have won at least 3 of the last 4 as they were pretty close games but overall we probably win 10-15 more games with those guys which would still put us below .500 for the year. I swing between thinking we will be really good next year to thinking we will be mediocre again. The young guys are gaining valuable experience and with a high draft pick we will be improved but we are still a few years away from being a serious contender.

footey said: Powe is bad, folks. Should be ranked only above Pinckney. He will be cut in off season

Two blown out knees will do that.

Eeyore III is right, It’s going to take TA all of next season to get back to where he was ( if he can get there at all).

BTW, interesting comment from D Thorpe on ESPN that he doesn’t think Jefferson and Oden could play together since they both want to play down low on the blocks. There is some truth to that but Al and Perk seem to exist down there and I still belive with Oden anchoring the D that we would become an elite team quickly

We can’t get start out 4-10.

Please, what a nice problem to have, Jefferson and Oden.

Can we wait 3-5 years for Oden to MATURE as a center? While it may appear that my preference is for the Celtics to take Durant, I’m merely playing the part of the “devil’s advocate” by suggesting that the ultimate drafting decision won’t be easy.

The two most IMPORTANT positions on a basketball team are at the 1 and 5 positions. Both positions require the most adjustment by any prospective NBA aspirant. Oden wants to block EVERY shot within reach. Pros are masters at providing convincing fakes. Refs anticipate fouls on most blocked shots. Oden will have to learn how to be more selective as a shot blocker and he will need to refine his technique if he intends to stay in the game. While he has size, he WILL be manhandled inside. Both Jefferson and Perkins were great shot-blockers in high school and both needed time to refine their technique.

Durant will have an easier time adjusting to the nba because the position he plays will be easier to adjust to. Durant has a more advanced game than Oden and that will also help his adjustment.

You do realize that the likelihood that we’ll ever get the first pick is quite remote?

Ralph Sampson apparently had it all too. He was once considered the Key to an NBA title. Size, talent….Determination to be the best is equally important.

Oden is better than anything we have at the moment. He’s only going to get better. Yes, there will be a learning curve.

Where do you get the idea, Oden will be Man Handled?

Coaching will determine if they want him going after every shot.

As for Sampson, when he came into the league he averaged over 20 points and 10 rebounds per game for his 1st two years. 18 and 11 the third year.

Less than 50 % chance they will get a top two pick.

haha good rant Po.
take it easy though, (master)chief, let’s not throw the back again ;)

Master Po,

Do you see Powe as a top eight player on a 45-55 win team?

Footey – You have to be competely crazy! Powe is averaging 3.9 pts and 3.3 boards in 11 minutes. Per 48 that is about 15 pts and 14 boards. Big Al’s per 48 is about 20 and 14. (And he is a complete stud, but gets the offense run through him which Powe doesn’t) He can hit free throws, he has decent post moves, can knock down the 10-15 foot jumper, and plays very hard agressive defense. When he comes into the game he energizes the team defensively. Other than Perk, he is really the only one who plays D that hard. He’s a rookie that just came off two major knee surgeries. He had a completely amazing season! What a bargain for a second round pickup! He is definintely a great backup PF/C for us for years to come if he can stay healthy.

Master Po,
You scared them all away.

perkins will have a breakout year this coming season. if we get oden he might still be the starter and oden learning and coming off the bench as an effective backup for large portions of games.
if we get Durant perk will back up both durant and Jefferson but still have an impact on the team. thse guys Jefferson and perkins will have good summers will coach Ray. Since their basic understanding of the NBA game has increased via experience Their learning curve will be steep and will be a schock to us all next season.

as good as Durant is i think the problem facing danny is that if there’s any chance that Oden will be a star (and we know there is)that he has to take him due to the impact of the center position, especially, if filled by a all star caliber player.

Oden (or Hibbard) Perk = 12 fouls to give.

Are the Celtics at a Tipping Point?[/b]

By the beginning of next year, the Celtics may have reached a tipping point in terms of age, experience and chemistry. As Malcolm Gladwell explains in his book, The Tipping Point, a tipping point presents a new way of understanding why change can happen so quickly and as unexpectedly as it does. Things can happen all at once, and little changes can make a huge difference. Itâ€â"¢s a bit counterintuitive. Applying this concept to the Celtics, all the little things that have been achieved by each core team member will result in a more significant collective gain, and we may be on the brink of more substantial success soon, with only a few minor changes required to the current roster.

Rather than focus on the lack of experienced veterans, or simply on the skills of each individual player, we should recognize that most of the Celticsâ€â"¢ core will have been together into at least their fourth year. They are gaining skill, experience and chemistry, and the confidence that comes from playing together in different game-time situations. Given this year’s injuries, a number of the younger Celtics have been given more than their fair share of minutes, which only adds to the gains. Collectively, this group will have reached a key â€Å"tipping point.”

What can get them over that hump? The Celtics need just three changes to their current roster to get beyond the tipping point and galvanize this team into a real winner. First, letâ€â"¢s look at the categories below:

P. Pierce
W. Szczerbiak
B. Scalabrine
[M. Olowokandi]*
[T Ratliff]

K. Perkins (5th year)
T. Allen (4th)
A. Jefferson (4th)
[S. Telfair (4th)]
D. West (4th)
R. Gomes (only 3rd year but plays like more experienced vet)
[b]
Young players[/b]
G Green (3rd year)
L Powe (2nd)
R Rondo (2nd)
A. Ray

• [brackets to indicate should not return]

We need to bring in 2 quality veterans, preferably at PG and Center, plus add the pick.

1) Cut/trade M. Olowokandi to make room for quality vet PG (to rotate with R Rondo) (You can throw in Telfair, Ratliff, Allen or West in the trade if needed to make this happen). Celtics would have 2 PGs with D. West as combo back-up.

2) Trade T. Ratliff and bring in quality vet big man as 4/5.

3) Cut/trade R. Allen to make room for the draft pick.

With these 3 changes in the offseason – adding the two vets plus pick – the Celtics will have reached the critical tipping point, and moved beyond into the winning zone. I think the changes can come more quickly than most fans expect.

 Pitino used that stat, rebounds per minute played when justifying the acquisition of Vitaly Potapenko.

Im all for Perk having a break out year but when is he going to learn how to set a pick.

At this point, it can’t be the coaching.

Freeease1 – Why would Perkins back up Durant? He would play the 3! He’s not a 4 or a 5. He only ways 190 lbs. Your line-up would look like this:

Rondo
PP
Durant
Big Al
Perk

West would come in off the bench at the point or 2. GG and Wally would come in backing up PP, So would Tony when he is healthy enough. Gomes would spell Durant and Al sometimes. Powe and Scal would spell Al and Perk. Another big man prospect replacing Kandi would be back there as well. That is assuming that you keep the team as is. More than likely they will try and swing some type of trade. I wouldn’t mind picking up Gasol or KG or Jermaine O’neal, but other than those no one that is going anywhere is worth giving up much. We should have a pretty deep and improved team next year. Playoffs and likely out in the 1st round next year, 2 round the following and contenders for the east the following.

Leon Powe reminds me a little of Michael Bishop.

Let’s “stir” the pot again. I tend to support Jeff’s opinion re the Scal/Green controversy. I’m not sure what basketball background most posters have but Scal plays tough (physical) defense, rotates in a timely fashion to open areas , sets excellent picks and spaces the floor well. He can occasionally knock-down a 3pt shot too. He doesn’t rebound well but he does block-out well.

Green fails in most respects except offense. He’s weak on defense, doesn’t space the floor well, NEVER thinks to set picks and his decision-making leaves much to be desired. His athleticism and smooth stroke (with range) suggest a greater upside than Scal but Gerald’s IQ seems mired in first gear. I was surprised to see how many rebounds he got his hands on only to clumsily lose the ball (butter-fingers?).

Comparing Scal to Green needs to be done in REAL-Time, based on this teams current needs. While not the sentimental favorite, Scal has meant more to the Celtics this year than Green IMHO.

EJPLAYA, I think in time Durant could be a four. He needs to put weight on sure, but isn’t Garnett a four? How much does weigh? I think Durant has the length to be a four and be a real impossible matchup for most fours. Durant, Al and PP up front with Rondo and Allen in the backcourt. Bring Perk in off the bench for muscle and Wally and West for shooting. Just a thought.

My 13 year old son might grow to be 6’ 4" and 235 lbs but I don’t think I’ll take him to Patriots camp and insert him into the line-up just yet… Durant is presently not physically able to play the 4 and will probably take 2-3 years of serious weight training just to add 30 lbs. KG is 220 lbs and that is a pretty big dfference. His incredible talent is the only reason he can play PF at 220. Most guys couldn’t. The better 4’s in the league are between 6-8 and 6-10 and way about 255-260. Durant will never be 260 lbs unless it is fat. Durant may be able to do it skill-wise down the road at 220, but then you have another issue. Big Al should not play the Center position. He is undersized to play that spot. He needs to be able to play the 4. Perks unreal arm length is the only reason that he is able to play the center spot, but even he is undersized for it.

I agree with you on Al at the 5. Actually think that Perk’s combo of strength & arm length make ok at the 5. Dunno about Durant though. Doesn’t Marion play a lot of 4 for phoenix? at what weight? Durant could be that unique position busting player.

Plus I don’t mean to have Durant play the four right now. He should be allowed to grow into it.

Durant got the speed to play the 2. If we end of drafting Durant because he apparently closer to 6’9" then we put Pierce at the 3 KD at the 2 and 4 and 5 we already know.

Here a scenario that you will all love to shoot down but what heck. Draft Durant, then if Hibbert declares send our first pick in 08 and Wally and Theo bec remember Wally last year is next year I believe. Draft Hibbert and you have Rondo/Durant/PP/Big Al/and Hibbert.

Or you draft Durant or Oden depending on the pick and see where one of the PG fall becasue it is rumored that Oden’s teammate Conley Jr. is going to declare which pushes Law our way of we pull off a similar trade. Then you trade next years pick and Theo and West, Wally and 2nd rd pick for Law. Then you have Law/GG/PP/Big Al/Oden. Law has heart and wants the ball. Watched A&M a lot and liked him.

I will be waiting.

Hi people from Spain!

I have to disagree with most of you in the Jefferson’s height discussion.

He’s undersized?? Against who?? Shaq & Yao?? everybody else is undersized against this two, but how about the others.
He has the same height (1 inch more or less) than all the other good C: Amare,E.Curry,Duncan,Webber,B.Wallace,J.O’neal,camby…

So play AJ in the best spot for him, or adapt him to the team needs but not decide his spot because of his height.
Every player has to play where he’s confortable. Look AI, isn’t he a 2? Was not Charles Barkley a 4? was not magic johnson a 1?

Don’t be wrong,I think it would be fantastic to have Big Al at the 4 with Oden at 5, but height can’t be the reason why he will be playing one or another spot.

celty86 – Marion plays the 3. Diaw plays the 4. If a player is going to be a 4 then they have to be able to go down on the block and post up. Durant can’t do that in the NBA. Maybe in college against smaller players, but he isn’t going to go down there on a Boozer, or Brand, or Big Al. He’d never get position.

richardlight86 – Great plan, but who is going to take Wally and Telfair? It has to have at least a snowballs chance to give it a little thought!

PiensaEnVerde – Glad to see there is some inernational fans still out there! Here’s where you’re wrong though. Eddy Curry can play the Center position at 6-11 because he jumps out of the gym and is 286 lbs. 30 lbs heavier than Big Al! Duncan is also 6-11 but plays the 4 most of the time. All those other guys are 4’s that get pushed into the 5 because they have no one else to play it. The one exception is Stoudemire and it works with him because they push the ball up the floor and don’t need a 7 footer. If you see them get into the half court at all he gets abused by the other teams centers. We have a legit center in Perk who at 6-10 has a 7’6" wingspan and is 271 lbs of rock hard muscle. AI, Barkley, and Magic examples fall short because they are 3 of the greatest players of all time. Durant is not and will likely never be… (What has AI done for anyone though playing short)

Durant would be my preference because of his versatility at the 2-3. Oden would make Perk expendable in a year. (If he pans out)

1st, we don’t know that Durant won’t end up one of the best players of all time (I’d rather look at it from a positive point of view). 2nd, he could take the fours out on the perimeter and shoot over them all night. When they get up on him, he could drive by them like the’re in quicksand. Works for me. 3rd, I know Marion is a three but he does play some four for the Suns at times. 4th, be ready for the Suns coming after us hard if we get to pick Durant. They will offer an incredible package to try and pry him away from whoever has #2.

EJplaya, Snowballs chance huh! Alright maybe Wally and Theo could be moved and I agree with you on Perk. I gave several scenarios but a few will actually work.

The thing with Perk is he needs to really work on his ball security and putting more lift in his hook shot.

AL will be an All Star 4 in my opinion and having him and Oden on the same team doesn’t make a lot of sense. Yes! I know it worked in San Antonio but I don’t know if it would work in Boston. Then I again I wouldn’t mind it.

Durant/Rando/PP/Big AL/Perk-Rando/GG/PP/Big AL/Oden-They both actually look good. But we need the 1 or 2. The draft however is getting deep right now.

The only thing Perk has going for him is that mean scowl. he is pretty useless imo

EJPLAYA – So you don’t disagree a lot with me because you’re talking about jumping or weight… so if Al is confortable at C put some lbs on him in the gym…
And ther’s thousands of examples of undersized or oversized players for is positions, I was only trying to be clear with that.
What about Boykins,Bogues,Webb?? they won’t never be in a NBA uniform if it was all about height, and they aren’t all time players.

Boozer at 4? Marion? and Kirilenko weight? you can clearly see this season he was better at 4. Ben Wallace? David West? E.Brand? etc…

So I repeat, I hope Jefferson could play the 4 with Oden/Perk/Someone else at the 5. It would be perfect. But if not then he can play the C with some gym and training because he has shown us he feels good there.

I agree with richard these lineups looks good to very good for me. With Delonte,Wally,Gomes,Perk from the bench. I think a healthy Wally should have a lot of value for this team from the bench next year.

celty86 – to plan on Durant being one of the greatest of all time is just not a realistic idea. He had one year that he was a very good player on a team where they focused on him on offense. Magic did it for more than one year and beat an amazing foe (don’t think I have to mention who) for the national championship. You can expect Durant to be an allstar which I think is fair and why I’d rather have him than Oden, but you can’t put him in the class with those guys. Also, Marion is no 4 unless they are playing small ball. You are right in the thought that Durant could probably drive past the 4, but so could Delonte. Why don’t we play him at the 4?

Richardlight86 – I am not saying that I don’t like your idea, but why would any team give us a top ten pick (which is likely what it will take to get Hibbert) for 2 bad contracts of one guy who looks like he will never be anywhere near the hype he had and at best is an okay backup on a bad team, and a guy who has a huge contract but has been hurt all the time and is a defensive liability? These two and an unknown pick next year which will likely be middle round? That makes zero sense at all. We don’t want these two guys on our squad. Why would anyone else give that much up for them?! Same thing goes for Law…Won’t happen at all! If it was reversed and the C’s were thinking of doing that trade you would blow a gasket!

PiensaEnVerde- We saw Big Al at a larger weight and he was slow and couldn’t jump a lick. He only became the player he is looking like he has become now when he shed those pounds and become leaner. Putting on 30 lbs to barely be big enough to be a center turns him back into the “potential” player he was. That’s why he rode the bench! Those three tiny point guards also weren’t very good players. If they were 4 inches taller you wouldn’t even know their names. We only talk about them because they are unusually small. That’s why we like Manute (sp?) Bol as well. Not a good player, just a freak of nature! I do agree completely though that Wally can help this team when healthy. Just not enough to earn his big salary!