He Doth Protest Too Much, Methinks
by Jeff Clark on Apr 13, 2007 4:29 AM EDT
in Boston Celtics News & Links
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I still believe that Doc isn't tanking games on purpose (I don't think we need any help being bad), but if he keeps denying it, and denying it, and bringing it up, and answering questions about it, I'm going to stop believing him. His biggest mistake was opening his mouth and bringing up the subject himself, thus giving media members all around the country a great sound bite.
 “I mean, I got killed two weeks ago for literally making a very good decision when I decided to keep the starters on the bench for a very good reason. It actually paid dividends a couple of games later when we won because our bench played well. But the assumption was, ‘They’re just dropping games.’ â€
Following that loss to Charlotte on March 21, Rivers announced he had not tanked even before the subject was raised. And it didn’t pass without notice when he left Ryan Gomes and Kendrick Perkins [stats] on the bench in the last quarter of Tuesday’s come-from-ahead loss to the Hawks. Assuming Rivers is taken at his word and that he wasn’t simply trying to fend off the falling Bucks, he is swimming against perception.
“You can’t do anything,†he said. “The game in Atlanta, I wanted to go to Gerald (Green) down the stretch to see what he would do in that situation. I’m coaching for next year. . . .
“But right now, anything we do or anything Milwaukee does - or anybody - there’s suspicion behind it. There should be, honestly. That’s the way it is.â€
That’s certainly the way it will be tonight when winning is in neither team’s best interest. In the immortal words of Paul Pierce [stats] before that Charlotte game, ‘We’ll see who don’t want it more.’ â€
Update: Ok, I'm willing to concede that by his own admission Doc is "coaching for next year" which means he's not focused on winning as much as he is on developing or teaching. That, by definition, is not trying to win games. As a result, I do think you can make the case that he's "tanking." I just find it hard to believe that he would purposely manipulate a game where we have a lead and make it so the Celtics lose. I think what he's doing makes sense in his head for teaching purposes and he doesn't care if we win or lose as a result of those actions. Maybe it is a fine line, but it seems important to me.
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Doc is losing on purpose. Check out who he decides to sit in the fourth quarter of some of these games, especially in games we’re leading or that are close. He’s pretty consistently had Gomes and Rondo planted on the bench down the stretch, with Telfair, Ray, and Pinkney getting th minutes. Is that “playing for the future”? Of course it’s not; in all likelihood, Ray is gone next season, and Pinkney certainly is.
I wouldn’t have thought it was possible for this team to lose games against Charlotte (without Okafor), Milwaukee (without anybody), Atlanta (without Josh Smith and Joe Johnson), and Philly (without AI2 and Korver). Those are four of the bottom six or seven teams in the league, playing without their best players, and we’ve lost to all of them. That’s an impressive feat of tanking, that statistically we shouldn’t have been able to pull off.
Doc is doing a masterful job of tanking, and I commend him for it. Of course, he obviously can’t admit to it, so he has to trot out excuses, but it’s very clear to me that the goal right now is to protect our draft position.
It’s interesting how people get all hot and bothered about supposed tanking. When a team is out of the running, the coach tries different combinations. That’s the way it is in all sports.
Check out the lineups of bottom-feeding major league baseball teams in September. Minor league call-ups are all over the batting orders and pitchers who spent the season in Class A ball are starting games.
It’s the same in the NFL where there is no lottery to put any doubt into the position teams with bad records will pick. Were the Raiders tanking last year as they finished with nine straight losses and many of their best players on the bench for the last couple of weeks?
You’ll also find many strange names (well, most of the names are strange) in hockey on the few teams that are out of the playoff hunt as they conclude their schedules.
by lemonadesky on Apr 13, 2007 6:41 AM EDT reply actions
Jeff, I read your update. I’m not sure if you got a chance to watch the games that were played while you were in Italy, but Doc has been quite obviously coaching to lose. If you have them Tivo-ed, and feel like some self torture, watch them.
Again, I’m not sure how giving Kevinn Pinkney minutes in the fourth quarter over Ryan Gomes is “coaching for next year”. Perhaps he’s trying to give Pinkney an audition for a spot on the Austin Toros?
The players have continued to play to win, but Doc hasn’t coached that way (nor should he). Doc’s tanking has managed to blow big leads against several teams that are our direct lottery competition, by inserting bizarre lineups down the stretch. I’m loving the Pinkney/Ray/Telfair lineups, because they’re accomplishing what needs to be done. However, I can’t see how anybody can objectively watch what Doc is doing and think he’s trying to accomplish anything other than losing.
(You’ll also notice that Doc changed his coaching style drastically after it was rumored that he would be offered an extension. Hmm… interesting how that works.)
Losing on purpose or not having winning on your mind, what’s the difference. Sure they are tanking, but its the system. They are just acting in their own best interest, and whats wrong with that. Give the 5 worst teams equal weighting in the lottery, and the discussion will be is Seattle or Portland tanking. Most years there’s not big enough difference in talent. Was Bargnani a lot better than LeMarcus Aldridge?
Jeff, thanks for bringing this up. You were very lucky to be in Italy the past week. This has been a rough time to be a Celtics fan. First the streak, and now the shameless tanking.
And keep feeding us more information about the players rumored to be picked #3 through #5 in the draft. They are not the chopped liver many lead us to believe. There are older players like Noah and Splitter, as well as young phenoms like the Wrights and Jianlian. I would be pleased to add any one of these players to our roster.
by ThickNThinFan on Apr 13, 2007 7:55 AM EDT reply actions
Doc is right. The current system does not work. The best system would be to let all the non-play-off teams have an equal chance. The difference in talent between a team that just misses the play-offs (the Knicks) and one that is at the bottom (Grizzles) is not that great. This way, every team would try to win games to make the play-offs, or at least continue to compete hard when they no longer are in the play-offs. And all of this tanking speculation would end.
Just don’t implement this until NEXT SEASON!!
If one is to make the argument that Doc is coaching to lose, then one must assume that Doc is capable of coaching a team to win. At best, the jury’s still out on that one.
by halfman/halfoyster on Apr 13, 2007 8:42 AM EDT reply actions
I haven’t been able to watch the last few games and I didn’t deem them worthy of taping after watching games recently with everyone shut down.
But did appear to be somewhat strange. They appear to be basketball games, but not quite. Hey maybe it is all in my head.
I read something on another message board about another ‘tanking’ team. He said that the team appears to really try on offense. It is on the defensive end that the letdown is happening. Just reacting a little slower and giving a few more inches makes all the difference in the world. It would make sense. Screwing up on offense would be too obvious, if you did it game long.
I’m not saying our Celtics are doing that, though. But I have to agree that the shutdown of everyone who matters makes it easy for us to maintain our draft position without tanking outright. Doc helps with the 4th quarter line-ups.
Whatever. It is an ugly topic. Unfortunately, it can’t be avoided right now.
Machiavellian machinations or coaching for next? Either way, these are some weird games being played.
T
i’ve watched every minute of every game since the tanking has begun and Doc has been rigfh on…start /play the guys we like,get a nice lead,build them up and then put in the scrubs to get the L…i agree with Brick about the BBall Gods but no matter how much we lose now this roster healthy gets 45 wins next year….a top 2 pick??? 50 easy
Four more games to go and we can be done with this season. This definitely was a trying season for me. My expectations were high going into this season.
I will be watching more closely this offseason than any other to see who we draft or if any significant trades are made.
I have been happy with the play of Jefferson, Green, and Rondo and to some extent Allen. For all intents and purposes, it seems that Rivers will be back, but for how long?
Remember if Rivers doesn’t start out well and this team is under .500 bringing in a new coach half way through the season will not turn around this team. A new coach needs trainning camp to establish himself and implement his system.
The reason it worked for Jim O’Brien at that time was because Pitno was a complete idiot and it worked in Jim’s favor.
As much as I like Doc, he’d better get off to a good start next season, or we are in for a very very long season with this team again!
I think he knows it and this is something that he will have to think about over the summer before he signs his extention.
Jeff, you’d have to have seen the Miami game on 4/6, Gomes had 24 points through three quarters then mysteriously spent the 4th on the bench when Miami seemingly had no answer for him, the C’s still almost won that game without him which was distressing especially if you’re a Miami fan, but there’s no doubt Doc is coaching to lose these games
If you think you’ve already seen tanking, wait until tonight. Both coaches will be going all out to lose.
The Celtics have zero chance to win if Rivers is able to play Alan Ray at the point for significant stretches against Mo Williams. So I would not be surprised to see Mo Williams benched with “flue-like symptoms” or perhaps (to make it slightly less obvious) to collapse with a feigned ankle sprain in the middle of the first quarter.
How can anyone believe what he says when for the last two games he has Rondo (currently our best perimeter defender) sitting on the bench for the first 9-10 minutes of the fourth qtr when the team either has a lead or is down by less than 5 pts, then he says “were teaching for next year.” If thats the case, wouldn’t you want your rookie and future PG on the floor during that streach? Coincidentally, the moment rondo sits, the opposing teams pg goes off and helps their team win.
If ridiculous. I want to lose these last few games also, but why does he do it so blatantly.
by cos on Apr 13, 2007 10:32 AM EDT reply actions
here guys, this is all the proof any reasonable person needs:
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20070410&game=BOSATL
look at what in heck he did in the 4th.. he played the stiffs almost the whole way and benched every last guy who had gotten us a big lead. Rondo was playing insanely well, filling up the stat sheet. so he sat him.
The scary part is he may just be an idiot, not tanking. How could we tell the difference after watching his crap the last three years?
To lemonadesky’s point about tanking being a problem in other sports. I don’t think the comparison to the line-up changes in Major League Baseball is very accurate. Purposely tanking in baseball doesn’t make as much sense given the lack of immediate impact that the drafted players have on their respective teams.
Chad Ford had a interview with Jerry West. It seems he believes certain teams are tanking and is pretty much disgusted with it. He sights the Grizzlies as truly the worst team with real injuries and has sympathetic remarks towards the Bucks. No mention of the Celtics. He states he has never liked the lottery. It’s an interview worth listening to.
“I think what he’s doing makes sense in his head”
That doesn’t make me feel any better at all…I have learned that making sense in Doc’s head usually doesn’t lead to positive results.
by CDawg834 on Apr 13, 2007 2:24 PM EDT reply actions
It’s time to compile a realistic list of potential coaches for this team. Arre we looking for someone with Celtics credentials, NBA credentials, D-League, etc? I pray the Pacers let Carlisle go and then Danny should BEG him to coach the team. Larry Brown is a great teach, but he does not like to rely on young players and would create a media circus simply with his presence. No thanks. I have it on excellent authority that Paul Westphal was Danny’s 2nd choice to Doc. Fratello is available. Mussleman is a good coach but his players always end up hating him. What’s a team to do?
by Cant Teach Height on Apr 13, 2007 3:09 PM EDT reply actions
Simmons is a jack ass. Also, i just created my celtics blog account. id like to know who stole my john bagley handle. ive been using that since the old globe chat room and everyone migrated to celtics blog. weak
by the real john bagley on Apr 13, 2007 3:33 PM EDT reply actions
looks like i stole my own handle. had problems with creating the account initially and changed it to the real john bagley. anyway, simmons is still a jackass.
by the real john bagley on Apr 13, 2007 3:38 PM EDT reply actions
just to add to previous talk about giving everyone who doenst make the playoffs equal chance. so if cleveland had a similar injury filled year like we did, they should be allowed a chance to add oden or durant with LeBron also? i dont think so.
by the real john bagley on Apr 13, 2007 3:42 PM EDT reply actions
I was at the Atlanta game and was completely stunned when I saw Perkins and Gomes sitting during the great fade. It happened so naturally and obviously, I was just stunned and depressed. My fiancee had to console me, it was so obvious. What kind of got under my craw, silly though it did, was watching Doc walk IMMEDIATELY after the buzzer across court to shake hands with the Atlanta coach, some players, and then crossed the width of the court to hug Dominique Wilkins and his little kid. I mean, whatever, I know it’s silly, but you can tell that’s where his head is at.
You don’t just “try different combinations” to work on next year. You put your team in position to win games so that they learn how to win games, not by just throwing them to the wolves. The former strategy is ludicrous. What really galled me Tuesday watching the Hawks game live was how Gerald Green was just left to his own devices (which can be impressive). He just kind of did his own thing offensively, and obviously he’s got skills, but there was no “there” there to his game; with no veterans (or Perkins/Gomes) to help him be in the right positions on defense, he just wandered around. I was dying.
I believe you can conveniently lose games, tank, and cover it up by saying you’re “coaching for next year,” as Doc has. Jeff may be right, he may really believe he’s doing the “right” thing. But he’s tanking. There’s no doubt about it. If you remember how M.L. Carr approached the 1997 season, you can clearly see similar threads. The only obvious difference is Doc is very much hamstrung by having his top four players on the shelf (for varying reasons). Maybe some really should be on the shelf, maybe it really isn’t worth it to play Pierce. I’ll give you that.
But to sit Perkins and Gomes — clearly the next-best players on the roster, including Green — in the fourth quarter against the Hawks sealed the deal for me.
Fire Doc, or don’t extend him. I’m so done with him.
I agree with Bill Simmons, I agree with Brickowski – 100%.
How refreshing it is to read such objective, cogent analysis. And I dont understand how people read this as driven by bitterness and negativity.
Even a blind man knows when the sun shines.
by jurrasic earl on Apr 13, 2007 7:42 PM EDT reply actions
Eventually it comes a time where you simply have to call a spade a spade.
The funny thing is, I remember when Doc coached in Orlando, and whenever the Celtics played Orlando, I never feared losing, despite the matchup on paper, because I always knew Obie would devise a game plan that would neutralize whatever talent Doc had on his team. What I didnt know, was that one day others would think the same about the Celtics.
Look Folks, let’s put Doc and George W Bush in the same category. Nice guys, tons of charisma, cant govern/coach.
by jurrasic earl on Apr 13, 2007 7:45 PM EDT reply actions
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