Simmons' Plea To Not Extend Rivers

seems vry bitter.

- Mk

Btw, why can’t we count TA? He developed, but blew out his knee.

Rondo has also developed, but it took some time to figure out that Telfair was not the answer.

Gerald’s not as mature as other 20 year olds, but is making strides. He’s only in his second year. I am not sure what Simmons is expecting.

- Mk

Wow, just finished reading it….talk about going for the throat…..but I must say it’s an excellent piece…..

Are you sure Brick didn’t write that instead of Simmons.

The more and more I think about it, Doc must go

that’s a really good article. Everyone should read it. I feel almost the same way as Simmons.

Has Al improved because of Doc? His second season was a lost cause. His first season people thought he was going to be a star. The Boston public being down on Al for being out of shape and under-performing led him to work hard to drop the weight. (See his Big Al-a bust speech he made on FSN)
Losing the weight and having the help of Clifford Ray helped him take what he did in his rookie season to the next level. I don’t give Doc much credit for Al. He only got a chance to start because all the other available centers were injured.Reflect upon that.

Great article. And everything he said has been said here, but not as well.

I just want to know when the Jackie McMullans, Bob Ryans and Glenn Ordways of the world are going to stop shilling for management and start calling for this clown Rivers to be fired. The only one with the cojones to even suggest it has been Michael Holley.

And in the process I wish someone would shove Greg Dickerson’s mouth full of used toilet paper and shut him up permanently. His uninformed pandering drives me crazy. Heinsohn panders too, but at least he knows he’s doing it.

I don’t know about this particular section, but the entire article blew me away…Simmons may be 3000 miles away but he bled Green all over the page…Can’t help but think that somehow Brick collaborated on the piece… ;)

I disagree with not counting Allen and Rondo. Allen developed and got hurt. Rondo is playing far better than he was at the beginning of the season before he got buried on the bench.

Gomes and Delonte have been battling injuries all season, same with Perk so it’s hard to give credit one way or the other.

Besides that, I think his column is right on. There’s no reason why Doc can’t come back as a lame duck.

The same thing happened with Rondo that happened with Gomes last season: he was inexplicably buried on the bench, and then when given the chance to play, he performed very well. Which leads one to ask the question “why was he buried on the bench in the first place?”

Because Doc is an idiot, and its embarrassing that this clown will get extended for the same job as Red Aurerbach…the greatest coach in the games history. If Danny does this, he and Doc should be thrown out together.

This article, however bitter it may sound it exactly right. It still makes me angry to think about how Telfair started for this team for the first half of the season with Rondo picking up DNP’s. Honestly it would be crazy to extend a coach who went from 45 wins to 23… crazy.

Forgive me if I cannot take seriously a journalist if he uses caps to make a point.

“Doc is a good coach,”

If you truly think this, then please dont ever post here again.

(caution: not a C’s fan)

I thought two points Simmons made were each overlooked here (and amongst the other 900 Celtics blogs) this season:

1. This team was bad before the injuries

2. Just because this is a good draft and the team can get lucky in teh lottery doesn’t mean Ainge should be rewarded for that.

No, I and others pointed out that the team was bad before the injuries. It was bad from the very first preseason game.

One point Simmons should have made but didn’t is that this team is still completely clueless against a zone after 77 games (not counting the preseason). It’s unbelievable, really. Any decent high school team knows how to attack a 2-3 zone.

They don’t play one very well either.

Terrible analysis. Not counting TA is the first example. Who do we give that credit to?! He is 10 times the player he was when he came in… Green is a much better player than he was last year. That is absurd. Perkins is better than when he came in and without the injury this year he would be a solid center for us. Who gets his credit? Leon will stay around the NBA for his hustle. I give that one to Leon, but Doc has given him a lot of chances to show it which many coaches wouldn’t have. Gomes and West are undersized for their position but make solid contributions. Bill Simmons is a complete idiot.

BTW – Brick, where did the constructive criticism go from the other posting! It was a nice change…

I believe this is clifford ray’s first year with the c’s and is a “big man” coach….perhaps he deserves alot of the credit for jefferson’s improvement and for perkins becoming a very functional role player and not a born again greg kite or joe klein.

If I inadvertently offered any constructive criticism of Rivers, I apologize. It was meant to be destructive.

If some of you think this team will EVER improve under this turkey I would strongly advise you not to hold your collective breaths. I’ve seen thousands of NBA games and dozens of coaches, and I know a loser when I see one. I also know how to count. You know, the good coaches win games, and the bad coaches go from 45 to 33 to 23.

Nice mention by Simmons of my man Bryan Colangelo in Toronto. Even with a so-so coach like Sam Mitchell the Raptors are playing very good ball. If the Celtics retain Rivers and the Raptors get Iavaroni, the Celtics’ humiliation will just be beginning this year, not ending.

I’m not a huge Doc fan, but he deserves at least a season with an actual squad that’s capable of competing. He’s had one so far and it made the playoffs.

Letting him go now is an admission that hiring him the first place was a mistake.

That all being said, he HAS to win next season.

So admit the mistake for Christsakes and move on.

I agree with EJPLAYA. Terrible analysis.

Ryan Gomes has been hitting the 12-15 ft shot for a decent percentage most of the year. As of late, he’s even been knocking down 3’s at a pretty good clip. You would almost have to NOT be watching Celtics this year to have missed those improvements.

I agree 100% with everything Simmons says in that article about the current state of the Celtics. What I can not tolerate is his ridiculous “memories” of Celtic teams from the mid 1970s. The guy is 36 years old for God’s sake. There is no way he remembers anything from those teams, even if he attended every game with his father. Who the hell remembers specific games from when they were six years old? He is full of crap in this regard, and he seems enter this territory quite frequently in his articles about the NBA. He must be insecure about his place in sports journalism to keep foisting these fictional memories of old Celtics teams on his readers. He’s also obviously upset that Ryan bashed his credentials as a Boston sports journalist. Sorry, Bill. You’re a blogger, not a reporter. Ryan has every right to cut you down there.

No Rivers, as most of us think, doc is not a good coach and I feel he’s proven it time & time again. Not sure if I agree with much that is in article but the Green segment is honestly funny.

I also think the suggestion that players won’t play hard for a lame duck coach is false. Seems to me that if they like Rivers they would be just as likely to play harder to get him an extension. But they probably don’t care either way. On this point, Simmons’ analogy to Mitchell in Toronto is apt.

C’s shouldn’t extend Rivers this offseason, nor should they fire him (unless the coach they really, really want for the indefinite future becomes available). If Rivers leads the team to the playoffs (and maybe winning a series) next year, he’ll reap the financial windfall in an extension. If they struggle again and his coaching continues to leave much to be desired, he’s gone at the end of the year, or maybe the all-star break. I think the latter is much more likely, but I don’t see the rush, the Celtics aren’t winning any titles next year and I don’t see an outstanding replacement for Rivers (although an improvement could be made).

This is just another stupid person who doesn’t understand progression. Of course Rondo hasn’t gotten any better after many months of NBA coaching and practicing both with the team and on his own shooting jump shots. He is the exact same guy he was before the season, he just stepped onto the court as a rookie and has been pretty good based all on talents he had before entering the NBA. Makes perfect sense.

Very few people in the Suns organization think the Iavaroni has what it takes to be an effective head coach in the NBA…he’ll get his shot because of the time put in, but most everyone in the Phoenix organization believes he’s destined to be an assistent when all is said and done…

…its funny the things you get to hear when your around the people making the decisions…Iavaroni gets a ton of credit through association with Phoenix, but he has some issues with credability in terms of players respecting his authority due to his quirky nature…I’d say he loses whatever team he’s coaching within 2 seasons…

As for Rivers, he’s certainly not the best in the biz, but he’ll guide a quality team with veteran stability and talent to a 50 win season no problem…his test will be in a playoff series against a quality opponent that matches his talent and experience..on that front he is still unproven..

Rivers, like most every coach, has limitations. He was out maneuvered by Rick Carlisle in the playoffs two years ago, and got beat by Carlisle when he was with Detroit before that…both accounts Rivers was undermanned from and talent and experience standpoint…

Rivers lack of substitution savvy cost him in both series, but those weren’t the only factors in play with those losses…since then, he’s been given one of the most difficult jobs in the NBA, coaching a 15 man roster full of players who have potential and ability, while being given the mandate to “develop” the talent on the roster. All this time he’s had to try and maintain a competitive balance in order to satisfy his star player and keep a competitive edge to his youth…not an easy feat…

I’m personally very interested to see what he can do next year with a more well-rounded roster, though giving him a multi-year extention may not be my choice, its easily rectified if things don’t work out and I expect the deal to reflect that contingency…

 >:( Had various players not been injured, none who appeared to have developed would have played..because Mr Rivers is an ordinary basketball thinker. For example, anyone who watched Gomes the last two years would not mess with his head by matching him against tall 4’s. But after Gomes was “discovered” (because others were injured) at the 4, Rivers assumed he should play there always. Tony Allen started scoring only because Pierce was out (no other way to think about a shot for Allen). Early passing schemes tipped that Pierce and Zerbak were supposed to shoot (not West either..until Zerbak went down). It’s very inventive having Wally shoot because he can’t do anything else(How bout the pine). I apologize to you readers but I’m really sick of writing about River’s poor coaching. I was sick when they hired him and true to that modernist spirit it looks like I’ll be sick again for the next few years unless mgmt starts hearing voices.

In addition to the Raps, if anyone has followed the Jazz this year, they would see what progress from a good, young, well-coached, well-managed team looks like. Simmons is right on, except for the bit about how Doc should have started throwing chairs during the losing streak. I was glad during the streak that the players didn’t get bummed out, and I was glad that Doc kept the morale up, but enough is enough. Get rid of him. Great year Doc – I don’t blame you for all the Celtics’ woes. You did what you were supposed to and we all appreciate it. The media didn’t eat the youngins alive, Pierce hasn’t killed anyone yet, we saw a modicum of progress, and you turned your weakness (coaching for a win) into a strength (coaching for pingpong balls). That takes courage and I’ll always remember you for it. Now get out.

I have a hard time agreeing with Simmon’s analysis on the coach and the development of the players. Al Jefferson is without a doubt a thriving player, but if Tony Allen can regain his ablity of last season he’s going to prove to be a very good player on both ends of the floor. Rondo is a special kind of point guard who can do everything except for shoot so far and I won’t count him out just yet he’s still in the developing mode. Gomez has had an up and down season but he’s no one’s chump on the court he put out and he gets results most nights, Gomez is a real decent role player and every team needs good role players, not to mention he’s now getting confident with shooting the 3pt shot. As for Perkins he’s gotten better as the season wounded down, I’m a bit ambivalent about him to be honest, he’s a tough guy who can do fairly well if he stops picking up those silly fouls, and stop being the point center. Perkins along with Jefferson needs to develope a short range shot to keep the defense honest against them. Gerald is truly a talented kid that reminds me of the scare crow without a brain. Gerald never looks real comfortable on the floor and makes lame brain decisions with his passes and driving the lanes, not to mention what he does or doesn’t do on defense though he has improve a little this year defensively. Now Telfair has lost a lot of confidence and looks like he needs some more developing to be a consistent NBA player. Doc was right when he told Telfair he’s not going to lead the league in scoring so stop trying. When Telfair decides to be a pass first point guard and set up players like Paul, Al, and some good shooters he should be a pine observer or shipped off to the And One League !
As for Doc being fired, at first I was all for it but as players went down and I was able to see development in players like Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, Rondo, and Gomez things were looking as though Doc was getting through to these guys
Doc’s decision to have Delonte play the point is still something i don’t understand.
But when I watch the games i see these guys really trying to win and most of their losses were by close scores.
I’m convinced with better point guard play and a healthier roster Boston is going to be a playoff team for sure.
Rivers has done a slow but adequate job from what i seen over the last 3 seasons.
I’m not advocating he’s the best man for the job but he’s has been there to see these young players develope so for that reason I’m willing to give him one more year, a contract extention scares me with Rivers because I’m not totally convinced he’s the best coach for this team.
He may take a player like Durant and hurt his confidence like I seen him do with a few of the C’s player and former players.

Jefferson, Gomes and Rondo developed in spite of Doc, not because of Doc. I’ll give credit to Doc for sticking with TA , when I couldn’t understand why he was in the game.

I always liked Perkins but why can’t he set a pick after 4 seasons.

How are the Celtics perceived by other GM’S and coaches, when we state Tony Allen is going to be given
an opportunity at point guard?

Sorry i missed those comments regading Gomes development…RIVERS HASNT A CLUE HOW TO USE GOMES!!!
GOMES WAS VERY GOOD OUT OF PC.RIVERS HIDES HIM. IF RIVERS HAS A BBALL BRAIN, HEgoes to Ainge & Co and says, “Guys, I’ve got 3 guys very similar, kinda slow/short for 3’s..Pierce, good O/av D 12mil, Wally good shoot/no D 11 mil, Gomes good O/av D 1.5 mil and I’ve got a 3 w potential Gerald/2 mil…hmmm nobody will have Wally… so we must keep him and Gomes…PLEASE TRADE GERALD ANd PIERCE TO GET ME A CENTER!!(or more SIZE!!) otherwise i have a lot of $ doing nothing cuz they all play the same position.” As Auerbach used to say to his players, " We ain’t married to any of yuh!" If the mix is bad, change it…yes there have been injuries but Rivers is also stinko. Alas, I forget that common sense and the Celtics are now seldom friends. Brikowski is right. If you defend Rivers, you’ve lost your conkers.

I do wish Simmons had extended his “player improvement” capsules, only because I think they would have proved his point even more in extended form.

Doc had Tony Allen trying to play point guard last year, which resulted in Allen constantly over-dribbling at the start of this season. Allen’s “improvement” was in eventually regaining the form he had shown towards the end of his rookie year. Doc didn’t “develop” Tony Allen, he set his progress back.

Doc has been jerking Gomes between small forward and power forward since the end of last season, resulting in a Gomes who can hit the open J but is wildly inconsistent when it comes to rebounding and, because of who he’s usually matched up against, a defensive non-factor. When was the last time you saw Gomes dive for a lose ball, or make any of the hustle plays he made his rookie season?

West is another guy who has been jerked around between two positions, which has also resulted in very inconsistent performances. He has the skills, but he often seems very unsure when to shoot and when to pass. Has he really improved at all under Doc?

Exactly who/what has improved over the course of this season?

- Gomes’ outside shot
- Rondo’s free-throw shooting
- Al’s variety of post-moves
- Telfair’s foot movement on defense

The last one is really the only one where you can make a case that Doc may have helped a player improve. So he helped our third-string point guard become a better third-string point guard. That sounds about right for Doc’s coaching ability.

No, I and others pointed out that the team was bad before the injuries. It was bad from the very first preseason game.

  I don’t disagree with much of what BSG had to say but he is wrong about this. Wally hasn’t played a single game this season healthy. Not one. Al was not himself the first 3 games of the season, didn’t play regular minutes and didn’t even start any of those three games. Then he missed the next 7 games during that 5-13 stretch thru December 8th where BSG says we were healthy and then he was babied back into the line up playing reduced minutes for the next six games. Is it just coincidence that Al played regular minutes for the first time on December 9th? The game after BSG stopped counting our record and the Celtics just happened to go on a 5 game win streak? Tony Allen also averaged about 14 minutes a game during this stretch and missed one game altogether.
We had other players out for games during this stretch too, Delonte, Wally, Perk. We were in no way “relatively healthy”.
Talk about spinning the facts to support your story.

The only time this team has been relatively healthy- if you can call it that with what was at the time your second best player playing three of those games on one leg and not playing in the other two at all- was when we went on the winning streak right before Pierce went down.

Whether Doc or his assistants are good developers of young talent are now beside the point. We’ve been developing most of this talent for 2-3 years now, and we’ve got a top 5 pick coming in a couple of months. It’s time to start winning basketball games! We’ve worried about lottery positions for long enough.

Does anyone on this board believe that Doc is a championship caliber coach? If not, then we need to be trying to find someone who is. If we have to go through a couple of more coaches to find the right one, that’s fine. But lets start trying to find one, because Rivers obviously is not.

If Rivers is here next year they will be lucky to win 35 games, whether or not they land Oden or Durant. He can’t coach.

EricW, I don’t know for sure if Iavaroni has what it takes to be an effective head coach in the NBA. Rick Carlisle has a “quirky” personality too— which got him fired in Detroit after a 50-win season. We all know what happened to Larry Brown last year, and no one can argue that he doesn’t “have what it takes,” at least in the right situation.

What we DO know with certainty based on a seven year body of work, after watching excruciatingly mismanaged game after excruciatingly mismanaged game, after watching the hopeless inability to play defense and the utter inability to install an effective up tempo game is that Rivers does NOT have what it takes to be a winning coach in the NBA. He’s gone from 45 wins to 33 wins to 23 wins. His coaching hasn’t improved one iota— and in fact it has probably gotten worse. And one of the major reasons why the Celtics won 45 games in Rivers’ first year is that Payton broke the plays and did his own thing. That’s why the Celtics did not bring Payton back.

EricW, I question your objectivity. Frankly I think you are pandering because you would like to get a consulting or writing gig with the Celtics and you are using this blog as a vehicle. I think that’s great, and I enjoy your work. But I don’t trust your judgment. Sorry.

EricW said:

Very few people in the Suns organization think the Iavaroni has what it takes to be an effective head coach in the NBA…he’ll get his shot because of the time put in, but most everyone in the Phoenix organization believes he’s destined to be an assistent when all is said and done…

It will be very interesting to follow Phoenix over the next few years.
This is the same Suns organization that let Colangelo go, signed Marcus Banks, traded Rondo and traded draft rights to Sergio Rodriguez who may be the starting point guard in Portland next year.

I don’t know what kind of a coach any assistant will be, until they get a chance in the right situation (Jim OBrien).

Even if we were to accept the defense of Rivers [injuries, has improved his young guys,etc], that isn’t an argument for extending his contract. That is, at most, an argument for letting him prove next year with a healthy older team, that he can coach.

Oh yeah, and were did that piece on Ivaroni come from? Do you have any links? Or do you work in their front office?

" I can’t wait until next season when they do well, UNDER RIVERS, and everyone who posts negative things on this blog will stand corrected."

If the Cs are dramatically improved next season, it probably wont be because of Doc.

Heres my little challenge you: explain ANYTHING Doc does well as a head basketball coach for an NBA team.

Don’t forget – 4-10 to start the season.
Yes, there were injuries but they didn’t look anything like a team.
Little things, PP taking technical foul shots when Wally was on the floor.
This never would happen under Belichick.

EricW used to work for one of the draft websites and may well have inside information. But if Iavaroni isn’t the right guy, that doesn’t mean Rivers is. Can’t anyone in the Celtics organization (or among their camp followers) see that the emperor isn’t wearing any clothes?

Adelman was fired. Stan VanGundy was fired twice (sort of). Carlisle was fired. Skiles was fired. Silas was fired at least twice. In fact, every viable coaching candidate out there who has NBA experience has flaws, and most of them have been fired at least once.

But some of them actually know how to coach. They can teach team fundamentals and they can manage a game. Hell, bring Obie back. I was no fan of his (his offense was unwatchable), but anything is better than this clown.

we all have our doc positions ( i think he is mediocre ) and our reasons. it is danny’s position that counts. he brought him in here in the first place, which probably means he stays. if that is the case, danny’s job is on the line big time. this will either be the summer of our discontent, or the autumn of happiness. i just don’t see the real in game iq and chippyness in doc. i also don’t buy the ’ you got to show me in practice line. ’ he sounds like a guy that has been around the game and throws around the cliches.the one clear thing you can see is his creative subbing to lose games and get the ping pong balls. i have not seen the real creative way to win games, injuries notwithstanding.

“his test will be in a playoff series against a quality opponent that matches his talent and experience..on that front he is still unproven”

Two teams never match equally — that’s precisely why coaching is important, to find ways to exploit another teams weaknesses while attempting to cover for your own. Doc Rivers will never face Doc Rivers in the playoffs. I’m afraid he’s all too proven in his lack of ability to dictate rather than adjust to match-ups, his inability to coach against defensive schemes (zone, pick and roll), the lack of creativity in his end-game play-calling, and his ability to put our players in a position to win.

Jeff,
I think you do an amazing job with this blog and come here to read your insights and analysis of the C’s, but I think you are missing something above with your “warning” MCPU40. If your posts on the front were as negative as Bricks then this blog wouldn’t exist. He is constantly spewing hatred of Doc Rivers and is completely unobjective. If Doc fired himself he’d complain Doc didn’t know what he was doing. I think the vast majority of the posters here are tired of every single post (which is about 5-6 per topic) being the same incessant whining and complaining with about 1% actually containing a suggestion. I don’t know either of the two, but Brick has been posting for over a week now about how if Doc gets an extension that looks likely he is going to quit on the C’s and become a Toronto Raptors fan. How is the comment of “Please just go Blog in Canada” an issue. I will admit I don’t know what you have addressed before, but I think the thing that would help the posts is to warn those who refuse to discuss topics and just want to fill their posts with tired and depressing opinions without a constructive idea to improve the team. Just my thoughts…

defensive schemes, that should be.

mcpu40 said:

 I can’t wait until next season when they do well, UNDER RIVERS, and everyone who posts negative things on this blog will stand corrected.

In your opinion, please define well next season. What’s well next season?

EJPLAYA, what’s not objective about 45, 33, 23? And do you think Brian Simmons is a “hater” too?

I do have a constructive suggestion (aside from recommending several good restaurants in Italy): hire someone else to coach the team!!

Hey Bill Simmons,
I can find every flaw in a team and exagerate it to the maximum too, its not very hard, what is he trying to get at?

Brian Simmons, Bill Simmons, what’s the difference? One of them ended Bledsoe’s Patriot career, another (hopefully) will contribute to the end of Rivers’ career in Boston.

Excellent article, I agree with it 100%.

You know what this is all about ? Simmons is sick of what the NBA has become. He is sick of what the Celtics has become. Read his thoughts about the tanking and contraction he wants . I totally agree with it.
I have been more in baseball than ive ever been , my interest in the league not just my team has soured and so has Simmons.

EJPLAYA,

I don’t agree with your assessment of Brikowski posts at all.
IMHO, he brings much to this blog.

Simmons has a hate-on for Rivers and has from his first season on. Simmons was convinced years ago Rivers was bad and so there is nothing Doc could have done to convince him otherwise even if he had won an NBA title. Simmons is the Al Sharpton of journalism. His draft columns were entertaining, but his use of ESPN space to lobby for the firing of Danny Ainge and Doc Rivers is pathetic and bush league. He has talent and it’s sad to see him sink so low.

Doc has developed the young players, and Rondo not starting games at the beginning of the season was a reasonable move considering the Celtics were trying to evaluate Telfair who had been playing well in the preseason. Jefferson, Allen, Gomes, Perkins, West, have all improved greatly with Rivers. Somehow fans have this mindset that there are three levels of NBA players: Stars, Role Players, and Bench. There is such a thing as a solid NBA starter and bench player. Gomes, West, Allen are all very solid players, in part thanks to Doc.

Is Doc a perfect coach? No. As much as I support him I would ask him to coach next season with no extension and leave the ball in his court as to what to do.

As for Brickowski and Simmons, if they knew half as much basketball as they like to make it seem they would be coaching NBA ball themselves. They’re fans, and while they seem knowledgeable to most of us, the truth is that they probably know about as much about the NBA game as the rest of us, which is to say: only what we see on TV.

The Celtics will be greatly improved next year, irregardless.

We need more experienced players and less inexperienced players. I feel that is the main problem not enough experience to win games.

Coulnd’t agree more. An extentsion is absurd. Rivers should be gone next season, and bring in a new coach. I’m for Stand Van Gundy.

So, tmcdon, what do you see on TV? Wins or losses? Do you see a well-coached team crisply executing its offensive and defensive rotations (like Boston College, for example) or a disorganized, amateurish mess?

Tell us what you see, tmcdon.

I’m a pretty simple bozo and this has been a hell of a disappointing season, so I’m hurt, down-trodden, somewhat confused, and certainly don’t want, nor anticipate, any further embarrassment going forward into next season…
But something has stuck in my craw since this particular debacle started last October…and I’ll fire it out here once again for what it’s worth…
As the pre-season closed, I was busy assessing our possibilities for the upcoming year…At that time things didn’t look at all bad…I still had the sense that we could do it (whatever that means)
We won a close game in NY and then lost a heart-breaker to NJ…Both tight ballgames…We had one left with TO…As the game wound down to the six minute mark, Doc did something that I just don’t to this day understand…He put in the Kandiman, and he kept him in for the remainder of a second consecutive nipped-at-the-wire loss.
Doc hadn’t seen fit to even play Olowokandi in the two previsous games and now he has him finishing up the pre-season on a young and impressionable team when any winning team, per se, is attempting to go into the season “A WINNER!”
How laissez-faire!
I remember at the time thinking, "This guy just doesn’t get it; the fire just ain’t there…Naturally, we got our season off to a 1 and 6 start and the rest is history…At that time, it wasn’t injuries, it wasn’t youth…To my mind, it was Doc. Very little has since changed to temper that initial assessment…

I’ll go with Bob Ryan on this one. I’ll go against ucn33. I like Doc and I’ll continue to post here if I feel like it. I don’t know the fine points of the game, but I listen to people who do, such as Danny and Tommy. They point out the smallest of details that Doc knows and teaches, but which take the players a long time to learn. I’ve also watched Doc coach from the sidelines in these “meaningless” games (I don’t think they’re meaningless). I see him talking Telfair thru the defense on a particular possession. I also see GG not going to the basket and getting called for a charge everytime. In these last few games he’s picking up the defender after his own and finessing around him instead of going full speed into him. But I’m sure Doc has nothing to do with this. I was disappointed in TA early on, but he got himself under control and became one heck of a player. I’m sure Doc had nothing to do with that. And where we all see the obvious improvement in Al we neglect to see how good Perk is when he’s not hurting or fighting the flu. His game against Shaq was something. He wore him out in the first half and shut him down in the second. I do agree that Clifford Ray has had alot to do with their development, but Doc hired Ray and Doc also had something to do with it. I also haven’t seen one player complaint about Doc. What it comes down to is that we aren’t objective about him. I like him and see the good he has done. Those that don’t like him see only the bad, will make a positive into an accident or a negative (the Rondo comments), and are unwilling to give him credit for anything.

“I don’t know the fine points of the game, but I listen to people who do, such as Danny and Tommy.”

Tommy is washed up. He was an entertaining color commentator for a long time, but now he is basically a cheerleader. He does nothing but gush over Green or Rondo, or scream about how much the refs suck.

Donny Marshall is the guy whose opinion would be really interesting…

Ainge hired Clifford Ray at the urging of Robert Parrish. Ainge also brought back Kevin Eastman, who had left to go to Nike. Rivers may have concurred in these moves, but they were Ainge’s moves.

How would this blog be, if there wasn’t a difference of opinions?

Brick, if you don’t see what is negative about your posts then you’re beyond saving. Saying “Fire Doc” over and over and over and over and over and over…You get the point… Is NOT constructive. We have heard it already!!! We know you hate Doc. I don’t think that you have a lack of basketball knowledge. Anyone that would devote this much time to posting has to know at least a little something about the game. Let’s just have an opportunity to discuss the things that should be improved upon. Specifics! If we use your suggestion that Doc does not have the ability to improve, which all coaches can do, then why don’t we get rid of Gerald Green. He is a very imcomplete player. I am not necessarily a huge Doc fan and wasn’t that sold on him when he came to town. Just once however I’d like to hear you compliment him for something he does well. Who can argue it takes a pretty good leader to have a team with as many injury issues this year stick it out and not get criticizing one another?! There is a reason that his team loves him and follows him. Larry Brown is a great x’s and o’s coach but he can’t get people to follow him. Doc is a decent coach. Not a great coach. The things he lacks can be learned though. Maybe he never will. Who knows. I’d just like to come here and not have to read through so much whining and negativity. By the way, if you read my post I said I thought Simmons was an idiot. Same negative crap…

Little D – Give me an example of what he brings to the blog?! And don’t pull out one example out of 1000 negative posts. I myself admitted that when he wants to he can add to the discussion. It just hardly ever happens.

What I see are a group of young, mostly inconsistant, basketball players trying to learn how to play with each other, learn how to play against players who are just as strong, fast, agile, and as athletic as they are (which most have never had happen to this point) and how to win games. If you listen to the people who actually play the NBA game, and actually coach the NBA game, you will notice that a similar theme runs through their comments: acquire veterans if you want to win now. The reason seems to be that the veterans have discovered how to perform and contribute consistently, how to excecute plays and rotate defensively on any given night, how to contribute to a team when your “best skill” is negated, even under adverse circumstances. The youth of the celtics roster (and it is predominantly youth) have not yet learned that. You see sparks in Gomes, West, Jefferson (who is discovering that he is capable of performing at a very high level consistently), and Perkins. Gerald Green has some good games, and then it’s like he just dissapears for a few games, or has these mental breakdowns and does some really dumb things. Does it mean he sucks, or that he’s a bust? No. It simply means that at this stage he has not yet figured out how to perform consistently at the level he is capable of performing. The fact that he has enough talent to play with anyone on the floor is pretty obvious. Add to that many of them are still learning some fundamental skills (like your observation about rotating against zones). I think that all of this takes time, patience, and above all experience (you learn best by doing). Peirce has said that he would like to play with Garnet, or ONeil, or even Iverson, but his resounding theme has been for veterans.
Players who know how to bring it to the table consistently every night.
Is Boston losing? Sure they are right now, and to an extent it’s to be expected with a bunch of kids 22 and under on the team. Is it painful to watch at times? Sure it is. Would I prefer to be praying for a deep playoff run? Sure I would.

Trust me, Brick, I feel every ounce of your frustration. But I do not, for one minute think that I know more about basketball, or could do a better job coaching, or know more about defending the high pick and roll in an NBA setting than Doc Rivers, or Danny Ainge for that matter. And I am certainly not going to publicly call for a man to lose his job livelyhood based on my own inexpert, inadequate, inexperienced opinion.

Im of a mixed mind on extending River’s. PDub want him back so that counts for something.

One question I have re Doc is questionable ude of Rondo and Telfair, 2 drive and dish PGs who, back when it mattered were not allowed to drive and dish.

He’s not going to lose his livelihood. If they fire him he’s going to make 6 million dollars next year for doing nothing and then go back to TNT. How about the poor assistant coach who is so much more deserving than Rivers (e.g. Iavaroni or PJ Carlisimo) but who has to work for chump change because no one will give him a chance? Who is shedding a tear for poor PJ, who barely makes in 6 years what Rivers will make in one for doing nothing (certainly not Latrell Sprewell)?

And if PJ has been sitting next to Popovich for six or seven years, watching him win championships, don’t you think he knows as much about coahing an NBA game as Rivers?

This “sympathy” argument won’t fly with me any more than the “Danny knows better” or the “after all, we’re just fans, not experts” arguments.

If you think I’m only negative, read my assessment of the Celtics’ young players that I posted yesterday. It was pretty positive about several players that the majority of people here have consistently dumped on, e.g. Tony Allen.

I’m firmly in the BSG camp and am surprised that the same bitterness toward the current regime (and not just Doc) that he has isn’t shared by more of the fans on this blog. From the owner on down, I haven’t ever got the impression that there is any accountability for the ultimate bottom line in sports-wins and losses. They seem content to make excuses (based on their own doing re: "youth") and then sell the fandom on some future trade for a vet that never happens and now lottery balls while embracing tanking. Giving Doc another year and an extension for more is just the latest example. To me, the extension is an outrage.

The whole player development thing is way overrated. If you have a ton of young guys (most straight out of high school with TUP) forced into action they are going to get better no matter who the coach is.

Hey, I’ll give you something positive about this season: Donny Marshall. He’s articulate, knows the game, has a sense of humor. (I liked him as a player too.) He almost makes up for Dickerson (but not quite).

Wow Jeff! That sounded kind of personally insulting right there, but you DO make the rules. I just think we’d have a more enjoyable read if we actually gave examples, made specific comments, etc. rather than saying Doc sucks every third post on here. I’m not against a negative comment as long as it is backed by some specifics. How would we have any discussion if there wasn’t something that didn’t need changing/improving?! If you are a decent debater then you point out the problem, point out specifically why it is a problem, and give your personal suggestion for solving it. (Doc sucks because he can’t coach so fire him is not an example of that) How about something like “Big Al is beginning to be predictable in his post moves and will have a hard time continuing to improve next year if he doesn’t change some things. He ought to work on developing a left hand and continuing to work on his 12-15 foot jumper to stretch the defense and not let teams over play his right hand” How about " Doc Rivers has a rough time when teams start to close the gap, or open up a big lead knowing when to call timeouts, and is costing us close games we should be winning. Danny should sit with Doc and review tapes of his games and great historical coaches games to help him do a better job down the road…" If you “endorse” the pure negativity then your blog will become less and less attractive for readers. That surprises me that you feel that way though because your articles are a good example of pointing out deficiencies without bringing everyone down. My dad always said that if you sleep with the pigs you’re going to get dirty. Let’s support those who have suggestions more than 1% of the time…

WOW! i never thought i’d see the day where a legit sportswriter bashes the hell outa DOC!!! AMEN!!!

He’s right, the BOston media is clueless about the game and could care less about the C’s. They only kiss Nurse’s behind cause Nurse cottles to them. It’s sad how the most storied franchise in history has clueless reporters covering them! it’s A CRYING SHAME

It’s alright tho, most of the knowledgable fans laugh at the boston media so it’s all good.

I have no sympathy for Doc, nor am I playing the sympathy argument. And I think all of us, as knowledgeable as we think we might be, and as much as we think we know better, need to come to the realization that if we knew half as much as we thought we did, we might be coaching somewhere.

For the record, PJ got his shot and didn’t do all that well with Golden State.

PJ was just a college coach right out of Seton Hall when he went to GS. He has since paid his NBA dues in San Antonio— for many years.

So are you saying that one must have coached in the NBA to know enough to criticize Rivers?

I think Simmons’ rambling, blog-heavy, digressing, long-wided prose does tend to detract from otherwise knowledgeable posts. I believe his chip on his shoulder from not being accepted into the boys club of regular sportswriters needs to be excised (get over it, dude, because at the end of the day you AREN’T a regular sportswriter), but through all the self-satisfied jokes and digressions is a pretty argument for seriously questioning the reign of Ainge/Rivers. So far, it’s a failure. The record speaks for itself, injuries or not.
Harshing on Brickowski, in spite of his rather reflexive, redundant “fire Doc” chanting ignores his basketball IQ, which I respect. Why anyone would be angry at anyone for being angry is beyond me. Have we not earned this right? By NOW? If not, at what point, seriously, do we earn the right to be angry?

I’m angry at the losing as well, but whining solves nothing. What is that crazy definition of insanity? Someone who does the same thing over and over again expecting a different result… I guess I am insane to have thought that gentle nudges towards stopping the complaining and starting some meaningful dialogue would re-direct the rediculous and endless posts that are somehow thought to be insightful basketball IQ by some of you. Why don’t you go back and read Master Po’s comments if you would like to get a better example of someone deserving of the praise… a fan with concerns like all of us, but a fan still. Who would read Bricks comments as an outsider and think he was a fan. Come on Celt fans. Let’s discuss ways to improve this team vs. tear it down.

Your posta are illogical EJPLAYA. What better way to imrove the team than to hire a better coach? Would you prefer that we give him lessons instead? But wait… tmcdon doesn’t think any of us are competent to do that. Besides, at 6 mil a year he can pay for his own lessions. Ainge was a good coach. Why isn’t Ainge giving him lessons?

EJPLAYA,

 You don’t like the majority of his posts, I do.

 Yes, IMHO he goes over the top at times (the draft lottery is fixed) but a lot of the points he makes are valid.

What did he post today that was wrong. Glen Ordway? Dickerson? Colangelo? 45-33 -23. You may not like his negativity but some view it as the truth.

What does he bring to the blog you ask?

Heres how he contributed today.

Great article. And everything he said has been said here, but not as well.

I just want to know when the Jackie McMullans, Bob Ryans and Glenn Ordways of the world are going to stop shilling for management and start calling for this clown Rivers to be fired. The only one with the cojones to even suggest it has been Michael Holley.

And in the process I wish someone would shove Greg Dickerson’s mouth full of used toilet paper and shut him up permanently. His uninformed pandering drives me crazy. Heinsohn panders too, but at least he knows he’s doing it.
 If I inadvertently offered any constructive criticism of Rivers, I apologize. It was meant to be destructive.

If some of you think this team will EVER improve under this turkey I would strongly advise you not to hold your collective breaths. I’ve seen thousands of NBA games and dozens of coaches, and I know a loser when I see one. I also know how to count. You know, the good coaches win games, and the bad coaches go from 45 to 33 to 23.

Nice mention by Simmons of my man Bryan Colangelo in Toronto. Even with a so-so coach like Sam Mitchell the Raptors are playing very good ball. If the Celtics retain Rivers and the Raptors get Iavaroni, the Celtics’ humiliation will just be beginning this year, not ending.

 EricW used to work for one of the draft websites and may well have inside information. But if Iavaroni isn’t the right guy, that doesn’t mean Rivers is. Can’t anyone in the Celtics organization (or among their camp followers) see that the emperor isn’t wearing any clothes?

Adelman was fired. Stan VanGundy was fired twice (sort of). Carlisle was fired. Skiles was fired. Silas was fired at least twice. In fact, every viable coaching candidate out there who has NBA experience has flaws, and most of them have been fired at least once.

But some of them actually know how to coach. They can teach team fundamentals and they can manage a game. Hell, bring Obie back. I was no fan of his (his offense was unwatchable), but anything is better than this clown.

EJPLAYA, what’s not objective about 45, 33, 23? And do you think Brian Simmons is a “hater” too?

 Brian Simmons, Bill Simmons, what’s the difference? One of them ended Bledsoe’s Patriot career, another (hopefully) will contribute to the end of Rivers’ career in Boston.

So, tmcdon, what do you see on TV? Wins or losses? Do you see a well-coached team crisply executing its offensive and defensive rotations (like Boston College, for example) or a disorganized, amateurish mess?

 Ainge hired Clifford Ray at the urging of Robert Parrish. Ainge also brought back Kevin Eastman, who had left to go to Nike. Rivers may have concurred in these moves, but they were Ainge’s moves.

What exactly are you saying is illogical? That we should stop whining?! That stating that you hate Doc and he should be fired in every single blog I read of yours (about 20 per day) is redundant and that I want to hear some realistic suggestions for improvement. How do you not get “Doc sucks” is not a realistic suggestion?! Every tenth post you mention Iavaroni. I agree he might end up a good coach, but that is the extent of your posts. Sitting next to a smart coach on the bench doesn’t make you one. PJ was not a good enough coach to keep the head coaching job and why that has changed makes no sense. Obviously someone out there in another group (Maybe your belvoved Raptors) has had vacancies and could have hired away PJ…Based on your comments we shouldn’t have to teach someone on the bench for that long anyway. They should be the greatest coach ever or they should be fired. No progression, no ability to grow? You pick out only the parts of posts that are easy to say “Fire Doc” about and never any credit. You won’t even respond to the multiple people pointing out that the players love playing for him. If you ignore it then you don’t have to admit there is some good in him. In your world no one could ever coach. Once again it goes back to the fact that a coach gets too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. If you have the players and the health to go deep in the playoffs you are a genious. If you don’t then you suck and you get guys who are only fans that know so much less about basketball than you calling for your head. Let me see what he does with a healthy team with a little more seasoning next year and if he still shows no progress then the search should begin.

Stop telling the truth? Never. That isn’t whining. And I don’t hate Doc. This is about critical evaluation, like someone who pans a badly written script or a poorly directed movie.

If you call this whining, why not replace this blog with a huge happy face? And why aren’t you bashing Jeff for featuring Bill Simmons’ article here? Should we have ignored it?

If happy valley is what you want, you can go here: http://www.nba.com/celtics/

ucn33 said:
  “I don’t know the fine points of the game, but I listen to people who do, such as Danny and Tommy.”

Tommy is washed up. He was an entertaining color commentator for a long time, but now he is basically a cheerleader. He does nothing but gush over Green or Rondo, or scream about how much the refs suck.

Donny Marshall is the guy whose opinion would be really interesting…

 I could not agree with this comment more, although i might not have chosen the words washed up.

Tommy has just been such a cheerleader for certain players that he’s lost all credibility.

Little D – every one of those individual quotes was the same story.. Fire Doc. I think he has added that a few thousand times. Saying the same thing over and over does not constitute adding anything. If he said that Doc sucks and he thinks he should be fired one time, or even 3-4 times over a few posts then that is fine. Every post regardless of the topic is the same discussion. Fire Doc.

Jeff, Never thought mine were more important than anyone else’s, just have an attempt at something worthy of discussion. If every one of your articles said Fire Doc, how long would anyone keep interest. I think that the idea of “just don’t read his posts” is kind of an interesting idea with 5-6 posts in each topic are his and surrounded by the 4-5 posts for each comment jumping in on the Fire Doc bandwagon. The whole flow ends up being about this. There has got to be something else that can be discussed! Such brilliant minds have got to have something more to say! You come up with 2-3 interesting different articles each day. It would be nice to be able to discuss those vs. reading the same negative spew each day. I’m done with my Brick comments because he obviously has nothing different to add and my trying to re-direct the flow obviously won’t get him off the topic…

While i don’t think Doc should be extended i think simmons just went over the top to get a response..
he has become a “shock hack”

ejplaya- your beef with brick is that he is always negative about doc. aren’t you always being negative about brick? we can share our ideas and opinions and our heat but our passion gets all messed up because it is just tough to suffer through all these losses. it’s been a frustrating year. it gets us all bent out of shape one way or another.

No NBA coach whose team loses 70% of their games in a season deserves a contract extension. Besides firing him, which I favor, the wise move would to leave Rivers’ contract situation alone, and if a better coach becomes available in the off season, buy Rivers out and bring in the other coach. If Rivers survives into next season and things go bad early, fire him and move Danny to head coach.

I personally think it would be a mistake to allow Rivers to coach next year’s team, especially if the Cs land a franchise player in the draft. A new regime, with a new superstar like Oden or Durant, would be better served with a new coach and a fresh start. Since the Cs will be gunning for the playoffs, and Doc is one of the worst playoff coaches in NBA history, why keep him if someone more capable is available?

Give Doc a pat on the back for securing the second worst record in the league and a boot out of the door for not securing the best chance in the forth coming lottery. He had all the excuses for securing the top spot and blew it. No matter how you look it, Doc is a lousy coach and should be shown the door. He had a losing record BEFORE the injuries to Wally, Tony and Paul. People have short memories. I think the only reason he returns is $5million big ones out of WYC’S pocket. And that is a disgrace. Not even M.L. Carr, who successfully tanked a season, lost 18 in a row. A franchise record and disgrace. Fire Doc now.

Simmons can’t even out-pick his wife; I would love to book his action, if gambling were legal that is. And surely he is ranting on Danny and Doc because his tank is empty. Or maybe he just tires of blogging about bad TV shows.

A little late to the party but here goes.

1) anyone who reads Simmons and doesnt think he has his best interest in the team is foolish. Its quite clear that the Celtics are his one team. All you people who bash on him for writing this & that about the celtics, stop and look where your writing…its called Celticsblog.

2) While I don’t completely agree with everything he says, Simmons is fairly spot on. Doc can’t get an extension. Its in the best interest of the team to not give him one. At best, he stinks and we fire him; at worst, he does just enough to get another contract and we wallow in his ineptitude towards coaching for the remaining years of his contract.

3) I can’t believe I had to scroll through half these comments to come to the one coach that would truely improve this team…O’Brien. I just wish both sides could bury the hatchet and come to an agreement to have Obie coach this team again. Say what you want about the guy, but he knows defense, and he knows that you build an offense around your pieces, not your pieces around an offense. And lets not forget, Obie can really coach. With O’Brien on the sidelines, there are very few games where you’d end up saying “were beat in the coaching department.” That just wouldnt happen.

4) Im right there with Simmons on this one, what happens if we don’t get a top 2 pick. It could get really ugly.

which leads me to…

5) Please, for the sake of the Boston Celtics, please don’t put out all this negative karma. I’m not saying, take everything everyone says on this and other blogs as truth, but your not doing yourself any good by bellowing critizism to everyone/everything green.

EJPLAYA,
You didn’t answer my questions.

Why don’t you expound on Brickowski theory, that Glen Ordway gives Doc a free ride.
I have my reasons why I think this is true.

If you don’ like a bloggers post, skip it. There’s plenty of posts I skip.

ucn33 said:
“Tommy is washed up. He was an entertaining color commentator for a long time, but now he is basically a cheerleader. He does nothing but gush over Green or Rondo, or scream about how much the refs suck.”
———————————————————————————————————-
I was going to say something, but I’d think it best not to. I will say you’re entitled to your opinion and leave it at that.

cos, I have to disagree with you about Jim O’Brien’s coaching. Yes, he had a team over achieve and that was a great year. But that team was going nowhere, but down, especially when management wouldn’t fairly pay two players who were vital parts of that team. O’Brien’s system was complicated and took a season to learn and that’s with veteran players. He could not adjust to the changes that had to come and he did not like to play young players. He would never have allowed our young guys to improve like they have. He was rigid and controlling as a coach, often calling a timeout when a fast break could have developed. He over-coached the games. When he took over from Pitino that first year we had a young point guard who showed some promise, Milt Palacio. When we were out of the playoff race he played the remaining games with Walker essentially playing PG and Pallacio sitting on the bench. Even if Pallacio was terrible he should have been playing PG at that time. O’Brien loved the three and played for the three. To me he ruined what Waltah gave to the team by having him concentrate on shooting three’s. Waltah was an energy guy and played best under the basket where his hustle overcame his lack of size and skill at that position. Waltah was never the same player after Obie got thru with him.

I’m 26 years old. The first game I went to was in 1986. I can remember being in the lodge. We played the 76ers. It was amazing, I can remember walking up the winding ramp and dad asking me if I wanted to leave because I was tired. How could you ever be tired in the old garden? It felt ELECTRIC. I will never forget names mentioned in my house with reverence like Larry, McHale, Chief. I can remember the last championship. Barely, but I got to stay up for the games because dad was in the forum for the games and mom let me stay up to watch it.
Everything Simmons said is correct and it’s exactly how I feel. Look at the team. This WAS THE CELTICS. The most feared adn respected franchise in the game. Now Charles Barkley at all star weekend says its a shame what happened to this franchise. I DON’T WANT HIS PITY.
 Rivers can’t judge talent, manage a rotation, or develop workable defensive schemes. He continually buries young talent on the bench. He is not an effective coach. He’s been paid for his time, now that TNT blazer is waiting for him.

truegreen, I understand what your saying but the way I look at it, the system Obie put in was the system that put the players in the best position to succeed. It wasnt a matter of system but personnel. Now that theres nothing but young guys, with a high quality low post guy, Im sure Obie would put in a system that worked to the teams strenghts.

Then theres the thought that Obie wouldn’t be working with wet behind the ears rookies but would be tweaking and cleaning up what these young guys havent yet learned under the current coaching staff (as example, fixing Perkins persistent early foul trouble.)

He knows defense. That speaks for itself.

In his last full year with the Celtics, he took them to the playoffs and to the Eastern Conference Finals. Yeah, it was a doomed team, and while I enjoyed the results, I didnt enjoy the style. But the fact remains he took this team as far as it possible could. You even agreed that he overachieved. That to me is a sign of good coach.

The current head coachs’ first season was a the only year he got to the team to the playoffs. And with Payton and Walker, the best he could do was lose a 7 game series, having the home court advantage no less, and completely got outcoached by Carlisle.

As for O’Brien, he left in the middle of the 2004 season, and coached for the 2004-05 76ers. And in his only season there, he took them to the playoffs.

I really don’t know what everyone here is looking for in a new coach. To me its simple. A coach with defense knowledge, ability to put his players in the best position to achieve, someone who can put in in-game adjustments, and a coach who knows how to manage a game. If he happens to be a coach that feel won’t be outcoached by others in his field, all the better.

O’Brien has all those qualities.

Ah, for the days of chuck-a-duck. And 62 – 59 games. And “fast breaks” where the wings fan out to the three point line. And ’Toine running the show and exhorting his teammates while “guarding” his two feet of floor. Yes, I miss Dick Harter too.

Just woke up again. Much better…

I enjoy Brick’s posts very much. He tells it how he feels. What’s wrong with that?

By the way….Brick, the guy who ended Bledsoe’s career was Mo Lewis, I believe not Brian Simmons….

Does anyone know or hear what has happened to Shira Springer? I usually read my Celtic stuff here not in the Globe or Herald. But when I have ventured over there I haven’t seen her name on any byline. Just a Christopher Gaspar. What gives?……

Brick, I kinda like the idea of PJ getting another chance to coach….

Does all this discussion on Doc mask the fact that a lot of our concern should be headed Ainge’s way? Or have we hashed that out enough already?…

Jeff, I love this site!….

If they extend Doc right now [they being Danny and the owners] that proves they are bad managers of their business. Serious. If you were a manager or owner of a business and had an employee who for three straight years continued to perform worse, would you extend his contract? Not bloody likely. At most you would give him one last shot. It makes absolutely no sense to extend that contract and frankly Ainge better hope we get Oden or Durant because if he extends then that’s the only thing that’ll keep people from saying how bad a general manager he is.

Yes it was Mo Lewis in 2001. My bad.

Jarrin John, not sure if your comments are ment to be for or against Jim O’Brien, but your comment of having wings fan out to the 3-pt line on fast breaks was interesting.

Take a look at the fast breaks the Phoenix Suns run. On their breaks the guaurds (and Marion) fan out to the corner 3. Then move inward if the shot isnt there or there is a drive opportunity. Its done for spacing. You may not like it, but with the proper personnel its effective. And when its run the right way, its good basketball.