What To Do With Green

i dont know mike?
but mike knows what up!
time to turn G$ into vet — that helps you win — NOW

Said it all before but this is one issue that fires me up.

To give up on Gerald after two seasons straight out of high school, is the most ridiculous, knee-jerk reaction the Celtics could ever make, period.

This guy has athletic talent to burn, can shoot the three, the pull up jumper and dunk like there is no tomorrow.

Yes he has short comings. Show me a player at 21 years of age that does not have short comings.

If Chauncey haunts you now, Gerald could haunt us for a decade.

Steve, Tim, Mike, whoever you are, I pray you have no influence whatsoever on the Celtic roster, because impatience with the current group will be our worst mistake. Danny has already said he is glad he did not make some of the moves he was considering and I am sure that was referring to Al.

Two more years for Gerald, minimum, then you can start to make a true assessment.

Give me strength !!!!!!!

Cheers

Aussie

I am one of those “diehard” fans that watch evry game that I can. When our losing streak started and the quality of play deteriorated, I still watched with the idea that I was getting an early preview of our developing future stars.

I won’t deny that #1 on my list was Gerald Green. With his extended PT I wanted to evaluate just how potent his offense could be.

What I saw instead was a variety of poor offensive and defensive decisions, the only consistency I saw was “inconsistency”. Early on I attributed his “rawness” to youth but after a dozen more games I realized that this KID had an amazingly low basketball IQ. Those that have played the game seriously tend to try to emulate GREAT players. They try to “shut-down” an opponent defensively and to out-think an opponent offensively.

Gerald does neither. He REPEATS mistakes in judgement as though experience is teaching him nothing. For someone this SLOW on the intelligence uptake, how long will it take for him to learn at least the fundamentals of great play?

When you see great athleticism it’s only natural to expect a great upside. By way of example, can someone with exceptional athleticism but an IQ of 90 (well below average) ever reach his “potential” if he’s learning impaired? The above example DOES NOT directly pertain to Gerald but it almost seems like the shoe fits…….

Yes, he CAN shoot. But Gay is “younger” than Green, has similar athleticism, yet is far more PRODUCTIVE than Gerald because he has a high basketball IQ. It’s my contention that it isn’t enough to have great athleticism if you don’t have a high basketball IQ because a lack of “intelligence” doesn’t allow you to use your athleticism to maximum advantage.

Rondo has similar athleticism to Gerald, cannot shoot like Gerald, Lacks Gerald’s size, yet is far more productive (and useful) on the court BECAUSE he has a high basketball IQ.

The point of contention here has less to do with great athleticism than it does the inherent value of a “high basketball IQ”. Before great athleticism can reach its full potential it MUST be preceded by an acquired high basketball IQ!

Can a “gifted” athlelete with a low IQ ever reach his potential if he’s learning IMPAIRED?

An IQ of 90 is not learning impaired. The average IQ is 100, and 90 is not that far away from it. Not even one standard deviation (15 points) away.

actually, i agree with many of points brought out. i think the time to trade green for a good player is now, since i think his limitations will become more apparent with time.

GG is a shooter. When he is on, he can tear-it-up. Doesn’t have a quick first-step, doesn’t have good dribble and can’t shake-off his defender in isolations. I stand by what I’ve said before….best case scenario: Alan Houston, worst case: Ron Mercer…either way, he isn’t the savior we’ve been looking for.

PS. I can’t imagine what learning curve Tim is refering to. Most be JJohnson’s High School developmental curve.

Didn’t we have this discusion last year about Al Jefferson. Wasn’t everyone ready to write him off because he had a lousy work ethic, bad ankles and should be traded while people still valued his potential and before they realized what a flawed player he was? I recall a lot of people, most of whom won’t admit to it now, saying all of those things and worse about Al Jefferson. People might want to be careful before they write a player who has two years out of high school off.

Gerald Green never played for a real coach in high school or AAU. He had never recieved any real coaching before coming to the Celtics. He absolutely should have gone to college and played for Eddie and Sean Sutton for a couple of years and actually learned how to play basketball. But he didn’t and the Celtics have him.

A lot of the “low basketball IQ” rap on him is just because he hasn’t been coached for very long. It takes a long time to learn how to play the game at an NBA level no matter how gifted you are. Green has tremendous upside and a gajillion skills you can’t teach. He also has a great work ethic and is a good kid. He has not a cancer on the team. He is very coachable. He works his tail off. While he may have a lot of flaws in his game, but he has come a very long way in two years. You have to wait and see how much better he is next year. Patience does have a limit and if he isn’t a solid productie player by the end of next year, you may have to conclude he may never be. But, two years is not enough to tell that. Too many other players out of high school have taken longer than that to develop. To trade Green now except as part of a deal to get an all-star would be monumentally stupid. You can’t trade an unknown with the kind of upside Green has for some average veteren. That is the kind of thinking that go the Celtics so far down in the first place; giving up on players too early and making dumb trades for overvalued vets.

“Can a "gifted” athlelete with a low IQ ever reach his potential if he’s learning IMPAIRED?"

How much of that is just that he hasn’t had the time to aquire the skills and experience necessary to compete? What is basketball IQ anyway? It is a meaningless term. Green has only had two years to learn the mental skills necessary to compete in the league. Few players could do that. You have to wait at least one more year before you give up on him.

I don’t know what IQ has to do with anything, but the 2-3 position is so well stocked that Green may not get an opportunity to develop, and if TAllen comes back, you really don’t need him. That being said, he’s already a dangerous scorer in only his second year. I’m just not sure that when time comes to extend him , we may still not know if he’s the real deal. He’s clearly an asset we could use to pick up a bigger player. Either in combo for a experienced PF or trading for a young guy. But I wouldn’t oft him without getting a player back with potential, because Green’s got talent, and if Allen is slow returning , we are Wally away from Green getting serious minutes next year.

Gerald Green? Compared to whom? His “basketball I Q” could be because he was late to the game. Comparing him to other players his age is like comparing apples to organges. Regardless of his age he has shown some strong signs of improvement mafter working with John Lucus last summer. let’s wait and see. Of course if we can get the “veteran” then Green can and should be considered in that light but to randomly discuss his future againest the unknowns is not what we should be doing. AS I understand it we have two option years on Gerald so why not use them to our advantage.

C ya G$. Can’t happen fast enough!

Green’s lack of development has been compared to Rondo’s and Gay’s on-the-court production. Your contention that Green has not had “good” coaching may have validity in that BOTH Gay and Rondo had “name-brand” college coaches (for as long as Green has had NBA coaching).

On the other hand, unless we’re willing to accept that River’s and staff and John Lucas, his past summer tutor, have no coaching/teaching ability, then Gerald has had TWO years of coaching (with marginal improvement). What makes me believe that Gerald has had good coaching is that he himself has FREQUENTLY commented that Doc has told him what to do, he just hasn’t executed.

To that add my own observation that he just doesn’t play smart, repeats mistakes and seems to learn at a snails pace. He’s not very “instinctive” about spacing the court, setting screens, going to the basket for rebounds, plays defense on his heels instead of on his toes etc…..

The comparison to Perk and Big AL seems appropriate except I believe Both of them have shown me more in two years than Green has. In other words, both Perk and Al came with a low basketball IQ but have improved more than Green. In the last analysis, I hope I’m dead wrong about Green. He was projected as our “savior” but at this point I’d gladly “settle” for him being a good starter.

if they trade gerald, they better get something of significant worth in return- no gambles, no medical history. gerald often looked lost and did repeat many of his same mistakes. how many times did he charge? i know al and perk and powe are getting good coaching from clifford and they need a clifford type if they keep gerald, because he needs it and i think he will work at it.

Ummmm, people are surprised that a kid out of high school will take a few years to develop? Danny’s big draft picks have all been from high school and have all taken time to develop. The only person that should be frustrated by this is Mr. Pierce.

Gerald’s future with the Celtics is probably more closely connected to the Celtics position in the draft than any other player. We pick first and take Oden he probably stays. We pick second and take Durant he goes sooner or later. Other than that who knows. For now the best case scenario is probabaly that Green is a good consistent player in two years, and maybe an above average scorer after that. There is also a real chance that he might not get much better than he is now. If the Celtics were offered a good veteran player I would trade him. I thnk that is unlikely so he is probably worth more to the Celtics than he is to someone else. So we keep him. I don’t see him getting much consistent playing time next year. That’s why I was so happy to see Paul shut it down and let Gerald play.

Wow, alot of Green hate lately. He can’t leave town fast enough? I mean come on, he may not be T-Mac yet, but you don’t want a young guy who can score 20 on any night with his athletic ability and quickness in an ever more athletic league? I mean come on. Even if you hate him, youc an’t deny he is a useful talent. What are we going to get for him anyway? Just sit him behind PP and let him develop. Yeesh?

JH you speak the Truth!!

Wyc Grousbeck ought to rip his nameplate from his locker the next time he misses a shot. What a punk.

Its really funny how everyone admits the team needs some vets but no one wants to trade the young guys to get the vets.

Top 3 players on this team are PP, AJ, and RR. After those three, who do you trade to get a vet? Green. He has the most potential out of anyone outside those top 3. If the team wants a vet, its going to cost them at least Green. For a talented vet, Im for moving him. Actually I’m for moving anyone outside those 3 previously mentioned and hopefully Durant.

Mike was presumably one of the first guys on the dump Big Al bandwagon prior to this season. I don’t understand why it is written in stone that someone as athletically gifted as Gerald will never be able to learn to play defense and add a few pounds of muscle in order to improve his rebounding. In addition, if he’s as hopeless as Mike says he is, then how will Ainge ever manage to trick another GM into offering anything of value in return.

here’s the thing with gerald- he wants to get better and he knows what his deficiencies are. Yes his defense is poor but he knows that. His passing is better than people belive but his rebounding is weak. the guy is 20 years old for crying out loud and hasn’t gotten as strong as he needs to. He is like a puppy right now. Once he learns to channel his athleticism there is no reason he can’t get 8 boards a night. How many people can jump higher than him? I think he deserves one more year. If the celts do trade him they better get something good. let’s face it the celts are winning a championship next year anyhow so why dump gerald for a short term fix when he could be your small forward for the next 10 years? let’s see how he looks this summer before we get all antsy

oop- ,meant to say the Celtics are NOT winning a championship next year

I have mixed feelings about GG, but I think we should give him the two years. Our expectations were too built up when he came, not by the C’s, but by the media. He’s compared above to some younger players, but those players had some time in college. There is no doubt GG can score. It’s the decision making and need to improve many skills that are questioned. There’s also a question of confidence. I see progress in GG. He’s had to take in so much info that it hinders his game. He came in heralded as a highlight film dunker. Yet he dunked very little in games last season. To me this shows he’s trying to be more of a complete player. Without going into great details I think he’s improved in many areas. He also knows he needs to improve greatly and is taking steps to do it. I think there’ll be a day in the next two years when everything will come into place for GG and things will take off from there. I don’t see him becoming a great playmaker or rebounder, but I do see him scoring 20 – 25 points a game on a consistent basis. Much will depend on who is surrounding him and I think that also is coming into place.

My disappointment with Gerald is not with his defense—I see the effort— but the lack of a really good offensive game plan. He seems content just hanging out by the wing to get the ball most of the time. He wants to get better but doesn’t seem to know how to do so. Most posters were bashing Doc for the last 2 seasons for not giving Gerald PT. Where are the Doc bashers now? Saying that we should trade Gerald.

footey, I see him open in the corner alot and he doesn’t get the ball. Doc is trying to teach him to work without the ball because he doesn’t have the ball handling skills that would allow him to create his own offense. When he does get the ball I see him taking it to the basket more. He needs to improve on finishing. Earlier on he would get past his defender, but then get called for a charge because he didn’t see the 2nd defender. PP also had this problem earlier in his career. Toward the end of the season I was seeing GG pick up this second defender and use more finesse in finishing or passing off. Another problem with GG and others is having to learn the game at the same time as his teamates are learning it. If GG was the only young player on a veteran team he would look better. We also can’t forget that this team has not been together as a unit for even a year. The injuries have also hampered their getting used to each other. I know it’s not politically correct to say we need to give it time for GG and the team in general, but we need to give it time.

Gerald Green is athletic he can run and jump but he’s shown himself to be a bit awkward as well, when bumped he loses his balance much too easy if you ask me.
Gerald has a very pretty stroke of a shot but as Mike said he doesn’t bring much more to the table.
Gerald is sort of like the Wizard of Oz lion who didn’t have a heart !
Gerald is a fearful player as opposed to being an aggressive, relentless player who thrives off compettion.
Simply put Gerald can shoot the ball, but he’s not complete enough as a player to be a major part of the Celtics.
I seriously doubt if Gerald went to college he would be a top 10 prospect in this years draft !

We must keep GG… For his scoring alone! He is the future of this team with AL, and if we trade him it’s a dumb move.

Just watch him shoot the ball… It’s pure, and no one can block it. Do not trade GG!!

I’d trade Gerald in a heartbeat if it meant we could improve the team by grabbing a vet. However – i don’t understand where the hate is coming from. I think the expectations on this kid are ridiculous, there’s no way he is the next T-Mac. But I still think he could be the next Ricky Davis – and that’s not so bad. It might take him a few years to have this come together. Or maybe it never comes together. But why the ‘see you later, G$’ comments? It’s not like he’s a Ricky Davis personality, dragging the team down – he’s just young, and needs time

TMAC isn’t even the next TMAC. Why we would hope for GG to end up like him is beyond me. Way over-rated IMO. Green needs to play offense like Rip Hamilton. He needs to get in fantastic shape so he can run his man in circles and come off screens and pull up for jumpers. When he did that he was very effective. He may learn to drive to the basket, but it’s not really necessary for him with his 3 point accuracy. Shoot the 3, curl off picks for pull-ups. Then try and work on some defensive techniques (which defense is all about want-to)with the coaches to be a reasonable defensive player and he is an all star. We will never get equal value for him most likely and passing on him too soon is going be a big mistake.

There is such a thing as basketball IQ…Anyone who has played can tell those who have it and those who don’t. Delonte is a great example of someone who has it. Rondo as well. They anticipate 2-3 moves ahead. They seem to always be in the right spots… Green doesn’t. I don’t think it can be learned however.

The debate about what to do with GG really depends on who we might get back in a trade. I wouldn’t get rid of him without getting a very significant player in return, but I would definitely be open to trading him to round out this team. Right now, Al Jefferson and Rajon Rondo look more like the core of this team for the future when Peirce goes. They play key positions that are hard to find. The league is full of talented swing players that can score in the right situation. If GG brings us another big man to go next to Al, I would make the deal. If we could have Kevin Garnett for 3 years and a real shot at a championship, I’d sacrifice GG. If we don’t get a top two pick in the draft, I’d try to move GG in a package for Gasol or another big man to go with AJ. I certainly would trade GG just to get rid of him. He has things to offer. But I don’t see him as a future Paul Pierce caliber player to build around. He is probably a third scoring option on a good team at best. That’s not shabby, but there are a lot of guys in the league that can offer the offense that GG is potential of giving.

Just watch him shoot the ball… It’s pure, and no one can block it. Do not trade GG!!

  For someone whose shot can not be blocked he sure did get a lot of shots ummmm…blocked. Most especially in crunch time.
http://www.82games.com/0607/06BOS7E.HTM

Only a mental migit would trade Gerald Green. I can’t fathom why anyone would look at a 20/21 year old who averaged 10 ppg in his second year, and think he should be traded. It’s utterly stupid. You win in this league with talent, period. GG has the potential to be a cornerstone piece of a franchise. These same clowns were probably saying we should trade Jefferson at the same point last year. CRAZY! I don’t want some mediocre vet who helps us win 7 more games and secure the 7th or 8th seed. I want, like most fans do, a 10 year title contending team. You don’t trade your most talented players if you are the C’s.

For anyone who thinks Green is a poor rebounder (5.67rpg prorated over 48 minutes), take a gander at the Holder in Perpetuity of the Walter McCarty Little Big Man Trophy, Veal (4.80rpg prorated over 48 minutes).

I think if you’re going to try and package our young guys together for a vet you have no choice but to throw in GG. Delonte Gomes Theo’s contract whoever aren’t going to be enough to land anyone worth trading the afformentioned. The only variable being the 3-5 pick, in which case you package that and keep Gerald

I took the overall article this way:

1. Pierce, AL, Rondo are the core. (3 guys)
2. Allen and Wally were questions marks due to health but starter / 6th man level guys. (2 guys)
3. Perkins, Gomes, West are contributors, but not at a high enough level to have to keep them. (3 guys
4. Kandi, Theo, Ray, Powe, Scal were all marginal guys not to worry about.

Telfair had been pushed into his own category because of Wyc’s email.

Green was the unique case where you had no salary reason to dump him, his potential made him attractive, but his actual contribution was small. My take is that there is very little risk in keeping him around. In terms of roster Gomes, Wally, Pierce, Allen, West, have the wings pretty much covered. If we start trading guys from that group, I would not like to see Green counted on for more than 10 MPG, as he’s not shown that he is ready for that much PT on a good team. Additionally if Green has to be included to make a substantial improvement to the roster so be it. But barring a substantial improvement to the roster, I would not move him just to get someone to take Wally’s salary for example, at this point we are close enough to having no bad contracts, that we should only give up talent for talent (whether in potential or realized forms.) For example if AK47 is on the market and we make an offer of salaries (Wally or Theo), contributors (West, Gomes, Perk) and youth (Green or a future draft pick) – no one is really going to complain that we lost Green. If he is used to bring back “Veteran” help in the form of Mo Pete or some other marginal guy that is not going to really improve the roster, then we’ll be PO’d.

I agree with the sane people above that Green has all kinds of athletic talent and is just a kid. To trade him would be an irresponsible waste of a good draft pick. I don’t think that Ainge had unrealistic expectations of Green and won’t trade him unless he gets great value in return. And he probably won’t at this point. His upside potential is very high. And worst-case scenario is a significant scoring contributor with average other skills. But my bet is heâ€â"¢ll be a very good rebounder and better than average defender and passer. His athleticism will be a big advantage in developing the other skills. He would have learned some defensive skills had he gone to college. Instead he will gain them over that same time period with the Celtics.

A good point was made above that many of these same people asking for Green to go, were saying the same shortsighted stuff about Jefferson last year and are now glad they were wrong (though they probably donâ€â"¢t even remember it).

Next year Green will make further strides and it doesn’t always require lots of playing time for these guys to advance. Jefferson missed a lot of time last year, but he was absorbing and learning all through the year. Then we saw the leap forward in his progress this year. Either next year or the year after Green is very likely to make a similar leap forward in his game.

I’m not sure what credentials the BSMW Full Court Press guys have, but they have not impressed me with their opinions all season, so their take on Gerald Green is not surprising.

Everytime the Celtics gain a new player, whether veteran or not, expectations are usually pretty high. In the case of Gerald, it seems to me that opinions are split. Some fans want to keep him around hoping for a huge outbreak, others want to package deal him away for a proven veteran (like Theo). While being a diehard Celtics fan, I am pretty emotional when the players have a game that does not live up to the hype. While feeling let down, I try to remember that sometimes a game just doesn’t go your way. Looking to assign blame to the team, players, and coaching staff seems to be, while sometimes vaild, a misguided effort.

I’m personally tired of the revolving door the Celtics have installed in Waltham. Telfair is gone because he didn’t live up to the expectations of management. Now, he will probably go to a team where he will most likely be the next Billups or Duncan. Will Gerald Green end up the same way? Traded away only to have him breakout huge for another franchise? What will we get in exchange? A player who only plays 44 minutes the entire season? A player who does contribute but is overcome by injuries that severly limit his time on the floor as to make no serious difference in the standings?

Why trade away players that have great potential only because the prerformance level is not satisfactory as of yet? Just because the season for us is over, it does not mean that the teaching and practice is over. There is still the summer league. There is the Development league. Practice, practice, practice! I would hate for us to trade away a few promising players and then be bitten in the rear later on. That would make me more angry than not winning a championship in the next couple of years.