X's and O's Are Overrated

Perfectly said Danny

I’ve always supported Danny, but his comments are cause for concern. A good coach makes the necessary adjustments throughout the game and season and I have yet to see that with Doc.

Pourous defense with minimal ball movement have been the norm in the Doc era, I hope I’m wrong , but Danny will get burned big time by putting faith in Rivers.

….obviously, so are wins and losses.

At some point, winning games has to matter. It’s called accountability.

Danny can not be serious with these comments, can he? He just lost my support. Time for Danny & Doc to both go. Unbelievable. What more can the basketball gods do to punish Celtic fans?

Ainge doesn’t need x’s and o’s cuz he has paul pierce . If you watched the raptors lose their final game of the year it was because sam mitchell had no idea about x’s and o’s. Doc rivers should be decen’t at it since he was a pg but he is not. Definitely below average. Danny is wrong about this one, these days i think he shouldn’t speak

What the!?!?

Brickowski said:
  At some point, winning games has to matter. It’s called accountability.
——————————

Are you sure, Brick??

I have this mental image of Vince Lombardi at a chalkboard diagramming the famous Packer sweep; “Create a seal here, and a seal there, and go up the alley.” X’s and O’x matter to champions.

I’m not a Doc fan, and I find some of Ainge’s decisions disturbing, but neither should be fired right now. If they are not in the playoffs next year, then they should both go.

I knew this would be the reaction to Danny’s statement. We take a simple statement, read into it what our prejudices say we would and twist it into a rope toy for a dog. I’ll list myself as believing straight forward what Danny states. Red Auerbach had 6 plays. Every team knew his plays. Now teams have probably 30 plays. Every team knows everyone else’s plays. What IS important is reading the defense and properly executing a play if one is called (it’s more important to NOT run the play if the defense is standing in front of the next person on the list to get the ball). It’s more important to set proper picks and use those picks properly. It’s important to take your shot when you have it. It’s important to block out when rebounding. It’s important to know your players and know when to be hard on them and when to settle them down. Etc.

Brickowski said:
  At some point, winning games has to matter. It’s called accountability.

I agree with this statement, but with some qualifiers. I don’t think you can evaluate a coach just on wins and losses. I think the statement “at some point” is the important one here. I would add that you need to consider what your players are capable of when making this evaluation. Considering everything that happened to the C’s beginning with players not able to fully workout in the summer because they were recovering from surgery, I think the C’s had a reasonable season. Maybe they could have won a few more games. Judging Doc on wins and losses is just not fair and is really meaningless. As far as I’m concerned we had a better team at the end of the year than at the beginning (with the players who were able to play). We are building a team to compete for a championship. When we have the team that is able to do that then I think looking at wins and losses makes sense. I don’t believe what I’m about to say, but I’ll say Avery Johnson is a terrible coach. His team was swept in the playoffs. I would also say Don Nelson should get a 50 year extension based on his team’s performance in the playoffs. Isiah Thomas is a great coach because of the improvement in the Knicks win-loss record this year. He is much better than Larry Brown. Neither of these last three statements is really true.

I can’t stop myself. Sam Mitchell was the Coach of the Year because of the Raptors improvement, but I read so many posts saying he is not a good coach. What gives.

TrueGreen, The problem is that everything you said IS important are all things the C’s still can’t do. No one knows how to set a pick or how to use one, no one knows when to take thier shots, no one knows when to deviate from the play called when the defense adjusts, and no one knows how to box out. I’ll even add that no one on the team can throw an entry pass and none of them know how to run a fast break.

So if Doc is obviously not teaching them this stuff and he sucks at X’s and O’s then what good is he?

I am much more supportive of Danny than Doc, but what kind of comment is that?! I hope it was trying to state that he felt confident that Doc knew the X’s and O’s of coaching but that there were much more crucial things surrounding the team that needed addressing like adding some veteran help, getting healthy, etc. I do agree that the coach gets way too much credit for plays working and not working based on the ability of the players to execute them…

furball, your statements are objective ones and I agree with most of them. I’m afraid to use the “youth/injury/lack of experience” reason, but I will. I would expect these things to be addressed and corrected next year. If not, then maybe I’ll come over to your side (but probably not).

furball, I would just like to add to my above post that I just wouldn’t generalize all the things you mention. I would also add that when the above things aren’t done correctly Doc is right there telling the players what they did wrong. This goes back to my “youth/injury/lack of experience” reason.

X’s and O’s are overrated when you’re Danny Ainge playing with Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish and Larry freakin’ Bird. It’s a helluva lot more important when you’re Paul Pierce playing with a bunch of kids.
Great coaches get the most out of their talent. A guy like K.C. Jones just makes sure everyone’s happy (easier said than done).
Doc really is, at the end of the day, a caretaker — no more, no less. A cheerleader who sometimes must put his foot down with the kids.
I just don’t think you can say what a Rick Carlisle does, or what a Rudy Tomjanovich does, or what a Larry Brown does, or what a Coach K does, or what a Gregg Popovich does, or what a Pat Riley does, or what an Avery Johnson does, or a Mike D’Antonio, or Jeff Van Gundy, or Don Nelson — who seem to know a thing or two about X’s, O’s, and timeouts and substitution patters — is OVERRATED!!!!

No need of picking apart statements like those Danny is making…He’s as truthful as any politician under pressure…I’m smilingly remembering wild bill and the big L, Hah!…Anyway, like it or not, the decision has been made…I have a feeling Doc is the choice of the players also…so that’s management and players for the re-upping…I only hope they are right and we, fans, are in for a roundabout that will somewhat diminish the agony we have recently gone through…
I’m of the wait and see camp right now cause I’ve always believed that players make coaches and not the other way around…I can’t help but think that’s Danny’s take also with this x’x and o’s stuff. Big deal…Doc has been successful in having individual players (less Sebastian)rise to “above initial” expectations…Many around here wanted to ship Big Al out on the first Trailways headed elsewhere…Now many of those same guys are thinking “God’s on our side…” Maybe a healthy roster and a dash of God-speak on the 22nd, will at least sweeten this interminably sour taste I have in my mouth over what I perceived as Doc’s obvious inconsistencies as a coach. Maybe he’s a front runner and needs real power under him…I can certainly say for sure that he hasn’t a clue as to how to salvage wins with a less than optimum roster…He sometimes even looked foolish, and, in so doing, made something of a fool out of me, and the other 10,000 die-hards still standing…

Um..Danny? Did you really think that statement would help people feel better that Rivers is our coach for next year? If so than its time for your checkup at the Brain Doctor’s.

Couldn’t argee more, how a coach coaches is totally over-rated and irrelevant. How a coach sweet talks the media is what really counts.

Big_Easy—What did Rick Carlisle do this year? (and I like him). What did Larry Brown do with the Knicks last year? What did Coach K do with the Olympic team made up of NBA stars? What did Avery Johnson do in the playoffs? As to timeouts, Doc doesn’t like to use them. He uses them when the players are making mistakes. It’s teaching or settling down. That’s why he sometimes runs out of them. As to substitution patterns, how do you have a substitution pattern when players are inconsistent? And at the end of the year substitutions were made to see what players could do what in different situations in preparation for off-season moves.

Oh Danny Boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling.
From glen to glen and down the mountainside……..

I understand where TrueGreen is coming from, my one counter argunment would be that while inconsistent play may be the cause of some of doc’s substitution patterns, by not using a stable rotation he keeps players from becoming consistent. Also there are only 3 active coaches who have won a title Jackson, Riley and Pop. All of them are good at both handling players and X’s and O’s. So since it seems clear that a coach needs to be both to win in this league why would we setle on a coach that could only do one of the two. I’d rather take a flyer with a guy like Iavaroni from Phoenix than continue to keep a coach in 6 years has never won a playoff series.

You are such an instigator, Jeff. You had to know what kind of a response the animals on this blog would have to a statement like that.What are you trying to provoke and who appointed you the media representative of ‘I dislike Doc?’ What do you know that is so special to assume you are above others in bball IQ? I have not once seen an unbiased column from you. While appreciating all the hard work you do to assemble this very nice blog, I have grown weary of your biases. I would not read to deep into what Ainge said, nor would I forget that if Doc goes, probably Clifford Ray goes. Perk is getting to be darned good, and Al is improving too on D. Look, your whole slant is beginning to nauseate me,that’s all, as well as many other posters here.You, though, as the leader, are simply starting to bore me. You are exactly what you find wrong with so many other sportswriters in the area. Can’t it be admitted just that our overall talent is not that great yet, injuries and youth did not help, and you, Jeff, just can’t leave this one alone? Can you? I mean you knew what would happen with that quote and you just had to post it. You are as bad as all the rest, and may I add don’t know anymore than anyone else either. But, then again, you have proven already through all this obsessive Doc and Danny reporting, that you don’t believe that either. You believe that you possess the right answers. Well, maybe Ainge does and not you? Did it ever occur to you?

Whoa gustusias lets take it down a notch. I thought for a second we lived in a free society where the right to question the decisions of the people whos salary we pay was not only acceptable but expected of us. Considering that after having Ainge leading us for three years now we just finished with the second worst record in the league I think criticism of Ainge is completely reasonable.

For a lot of reasons, mostly relating to the present makeup of the Celtics. I did want Doc back this season. But I do think xs and os are very important. I do think defense is very important. The Jazz are not chopped liver, does anyone think a Doc Rivers coached Jazz team would have won the first two games against the Warriors? I don’t think so. All NBA coaches are not starting at the same equal field. Avery Johnson took a very good team that matched up poorly against their opponent and and made sure (unintentionally) that his team lost. The Celtics either make the playoffs and play well (whether or not they advance) or Ainge and Rivers should both be out.

True Green; sounds as if you’re being thrown under the bus too. I do agree with you tho….

Red Auerbach made due with 6 plays….which the Celtics rarely followed to their completion. Why? Because those BASIC plays set the stage for multiple other “better” options. So what’s the point of this digression?

Red had players with a very high basketball IQ. To a man they knew what KIND of pass to throw, when to throw it, to whom to throw it…. To be sure, he also had multidimensional SUPERSTARS, each a shade better than our best player, Paul Pierce. They were multidimensional in talent as well.

It’s obvious, if one wants to be honest instead of emotional, to agree that a missing commodity on last year’s Celtic team (apart from the absence of superstars) was a high basketball IQ. We had players with high “potential” but until that potential translates into on-the-court performance, we’re going to be disappointed with the product.

One of our potential saviors, Gerald Green, said it best when he told us on more than one occasion that Doc tells us WHAT to do, we just don’t execute!

“The buck stops here”, Harry Truman’s comment that if something doesn’t work right, it’s the guy …in charge… that takes the hit. In Doc’s case, working with so much youth, trying to determine who belongs etc., forces him to give PT beyond what their production warrants. How else to see improvement and to judge capacity for INCREASED upside. Yet there’s a risk in doing just that. The real risk that youth are no yet ready to meet the challenge by BETTER, more experienced and talented players.

Honestly, do we have superstars or the talent to evenly match-up with most teams (if our most valuable players are on prolonged injury status)? Jefferson, next to Pierce, is becoming our second best player. Yet he, and other promising youth, have had their career’s derailed by the injury bug. How has that affected rotations?

Scal has had too much PT? We lacked size in defending bigs….we lacked defense, we lacked a high basketball IQ and Scal provided those. That Scal didn’t have other talents beyond an occasional “3” pt. shot, was typical of so many ONE dimensional players on our roster.

The draft has the potential to bring us a chance at a SUPESTAR, something lacking in the past (Pierce possibly excepted). Let’s hope that our youth somehow develops a higher basketball IQ this summer, then let’s see what kind of coach Doc really is. Larry Brown, considered a PREMIERE coach, couldn’t do it in New York and yet, with far less, Doc is the “dunce”?

I’m not surprised Danny said those things, because his decisions over the last 2 years reflect that philosophy. Unfortunately, he is dead wrong. We have a coach that can’t do X’s and O’s and that can’t do situational analysis even at a remedial level. The fact that Danny doesn’t believe that these things are important condemns him more than anything, and seals the fate of this team as long as he is with this organization. Even Oden or Durant can’t overcome that — we’ll get better, but we won’t win championships.

So we have a GM who thinks X’s and O’s are overrated, and a team of young kids learning how to execute plays in the NBA. Great message. Now i have a true understanding of why we lost 18 straight. But it MUST be overrated since DANNY says so…These idiots need to wake up.

I hope that the prevailing NEGATIVE attitude doesn’t carry-over to next season, especially if Doc proves to be more than he’s vilified here.

While this organization continues to “do what it does” I will continue to be negative towards it. I’m still a true C fan, but reality is what it is. Having a polyanna attitude isn’t going to help a lick. Doc, Danny, etc deserve the criticism they are getting. The only accountability for this season was releasing a 3rd string, gun totting point guard. More heads need to and should roll.

As far as taking a comment of Doc or Danny’s out of context, sorry, but this B.S. has been going on long and thick ever since we were introduced to the term “sidewards trade”.

The perfect jobs for Doc and Danny!

When the great Willie Mays retired, although baseball frowned on it, Mays’ job was greeting high rollers at an Atlantic City casino.

While I am definitely not a high roller, Doc’s job can be standing at the entrance of the Boston Garden as a greeter.

And Danny, when I go to the concession stand, your job is to ask me how I want my burger cooked.

Somebody in Boston needs to break into the Patriots headquarters and rip a page out the their owner’s manuel. This is a top notch franchise the suffers the same cap salary, free agent, etc issues as an NBA team. They lose quality players and coaches every year, yet they suck it up year after year and “get er done”. They are the mold that the Celtic organization should be copying.

I think Danny’s point was that motivation and teaching are to his mind the key factors. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley excel b/c they get their players to buy in to a certain system, they get players to accept roles for the good of the team, etc.

I think we can interpret from Danny’s comment that he’s looking at those qualities and thinks Doc has them. It has to be said that, despite the losing, the Celtics players never quit and were competitive in most games they lost, often holding the lead at some point during the 3rd or 4th quarters.

That said, it’s not an either/or situation. We should be able to find a coach that builds chemistry and can draw up end-of-game plays and make the right substitutions. I’m still really bothered by Powe being behind Scal for most of the year, that Wally was starting rather than TA at the outset, etc.

moskqq, I was going to stay out of it today, but I must congratulate you on your articulate statement. Wish I could write as well as you do. Anyway I like the view from under the bus. It’s the same bus that Big Al would have handcuffed himself to if we tried to send him to another team. It’s fun joking around with Al….I shouldn’t do this, but bceltfan, you are comparing apples to oranges when talking about running an NBA vs an NFL team. The rules are different. NFL teams just let players go, without paying them, when they’ve used them up. They then have 4000 players to choose from in the draft and most if not all of them have played 4 years of college (or minor league) ball.

Ainge has lost his damm mind! He’s lost all my support the past few months and this statement he just made makes him seem Idiodic!!

I must side with TrueGreen on this one. Anyone who has coached even one season of basketball at any level knows that in-game strategy is the least important part of the equation. If you truly think that any of those last second plays haven’t been practiced a million times before the game, you are delusional. This isn’t sandlot football. You are not trying to trick the other teams (virtually impossible after being scouted for a whole season), you are trying to out execute them. What Ainge was trying to say I would surmise, is that X’s and O’s are only a small part of what a successful coach must do. I heard Red speak one time and he was going over his playoff pregame speech. “Sam give them the talk” Sam - “If we win the first round we get $20,000, if we win the second we get "35,000 and so on.” Red - “Ok boys lets get out there.”

Simplicity and execution my friends……

The reality is that is ALL important if you want to win. If you motivate players, make their roles clear to them, and practice the basics and your offensive and defensive sets until they become second nature to the players, you put yourself in a position to win.

Once you’ve done all of the above, you need to make the right in-game adjustments tio what the other team is doing, you need to have the right players in the game at the right time, and you need to communicate what needs to be executed, and when.

Poor in-game coaching can negate all the motivating and all the good pre-game preparation you’ve done.

Frankly I think Rivers’ biggest weakness is preparation. I don’t know what they do with their practice time, but I see a disorganized team out there— at both ends of the floor. They don’t run their sets and they turn the ball over at an alarming rate. (Part of the problem is that the worst ball handlers get to handle the ball alot in Rivers’ offense). On defense there is one lapse after another after another.

Sure, some of this is on the players, but you play like you practice. This team makes the kind of mistakes that should have been corrected in practice, but weren’t. That’s on the coach.

baskets scored and rebounds are overrated to me

It seems to that Ainge and Rivers have emphasized individual player development to maximize the trade value of the players, at the expense of team development. Why teach them to play together if half of them won’t be here next year?

At some point they need to stop amassing trading chips and start building a team.

Brickowski said:
  It seems to that Ainge and Rivers have emphasized individual player development to maximize the trade value of the players, at the expense of team development. Why teach them to play together if half of them won’t be here next year?

At some point they need to stop amassing trading chips and start building a team.

They are developing players, which needs to be done before they can play as a team and they need to play together for a few years in order to be able to play as a team. I think more than half of our core players will be here next year.
    You need a trading partner that is really interested in making a trade before you can trade a “chip”. We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes as far as trade offers so it’s difficult to say that we are not trying to trade a “chip” for another player who will really make us a better team.

From Peter May Globe article—5-13-07

“I think we’ll be a much stronger team,” Colangelo said. “Last year, we were young. We were inexperienced at the point guard position. This team will have a lot more toughness and experience.”

This is about the USA Basketball team coached by a great x-o coach, Coach K of Duke. How dare Colangelo use youth and inexperience as an excuse. It’s unrealistic and unacceptable.

Link to above:
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/articles/2007/05/13/in_the_bonus_situation/?page=2

Winners win. Losers make excuses. Coach K lost.

Uhhhhhhh okay?

I used to love this web-site. However lately I just can’t stand reading most of the things people say here. I really can’t believe how short sighted, narrow minded, and inpatient most people are here. Am I the only one who sees the big picture of what Danny is doing and what he meant by his comments. You do realize Red has said kind of the same thing. (Just not the same words) Look every coach draws up plays. This is to get the players on the same page to start an offensive set. But most of the time even the best drawn up play “break down” now when this happens it is up to the players to re-work the play and make it work. This is where experience comes in. A vet team will be able to change the play as it is happening. With a young team the players start going in different directions trying to fix the play. We see this as total confusion (and it only takes a couple of the players to kill an offensive set) Think of it this way. In football the quarterback is responsible to “fix” a play based on what the other team does. But if you look at basketball the “quarterback” is the one with the ball. Therefore the “quarterback” can change many times in the middle of the play. This adds a greater amount of confusion when a play breaks down. A great couch is able to understand which players work the best together to minimize this confusion. (We do not yet know which players this is. One reason for the many weird arrangements of players we see) He also tries to teach the players how to think as one unit out on the court. (And this takes time to teach) I fully understand and agree with Danny when he says that X’s and O’s are SOMEWHAT overrated. Now I’m not saying that Doc is a great coach. I have questioned some of his line-ups many times over the years. However this team has been a mixed and matched unorganized group of mostly kids. Sure thatâ€â"¢s Danny’s fault but it was the short term pain needed in order to get to the long term pleasure. Everyone keeps saying how we are the laughing stock of the league because we haven’t won a title in over 20 years. I hope you all do realize that only 6 teams have won the championship over the last 20 years (Bulls 6, Lakers 5, Pistons 3, Spurs 3, Rockets 2, and Heat 1) that means that 24 teams have not won the whole thing in the last 20 years or 80% of the league. Thatâ€â"¢s why I don’t get it when people say if Danny doesn’t get a championship then he is a failure. Do you people have any idea how hard it is to win the whole thing? We have become spoiled by our past. If he doesnâ€â"¢t make us contenders then he is a failure. I truly believe he is moving us in that direction. In fact I predict it will be 2 years from now that we will be in that category. I also feel most of you will be eating your words in 2 years about the things you have said about doc. And yes you can quote me on both of them points…

56-107. That’s the big picture I see. What league are you watching?

From the mouths of NBA analysts this playoff season, “It is becoming less about the superstar and more about the team in winning championships”. X and Os do matter. Two of the top X and O teams in the league are the Spurs and the Utah Jazz and they are likely to meet in the the Western final. If there is a well disciplined X and O team in the East, it’s the Pistons, and they are likely to come out of the East.

Why are X and O then over rated Danny?