TrueHoop: Take It Seriously

I’m dismissing it.

That proposal isn’t just betting the farm…
it’s betting the farm and throwing your wife and dog in for good measure.

get KG in green PLEASE

I don’t like KG. He’s overly competitive in a bad way. And I think we’re giving up too much.

Anything except for Al to get KG.

here is the deal Kevin Garnett and Ricky davis for Paul pierce,Ratliff along with Gomes and West also give Minny back their first round pick in 2010. Otherwise dismiss the rumor

Just say no…to KG. There are way too many risks involved with this potential trade. Even if we decide to replace Al with someone like Gomes or Perk in the proposed Ford deal, it would still leave the Celts little roster flexibility.

AL stays…but in a huge deal for KG or ??? I can see Pierce being considered…but NO AL!!!

Too many people in the MSM don’t appreciate the value of Al Jefferson. That package is too much to give up in exchange for KG. The MSM don’t understand that…yet. They will by the end of next year. Al’s a beast.

I like Jeff’s idea – swap out Al Jeff for Gomes. It’s probably not a fair trade, but since when has a superstar netted a fair trade?

A piece from ESPN chat with Andy Katz today. Take it for what it is worth…

quantico virginia: Do you think the celtics will get KG or marion?

 Andy Katz: Neither. My gut after being around the team doing an access piece is that they won’t be able to make one of those blockbuster deals.

I don’t think Al would really be the hold up in the deal. Getting KG’s salary would completely cripple any efforts to add a third piece to the PP/KG duo. Switching out Al for KG isn’t that bad a deal. As much as I love Al, KG gives you a much better chance to win for the next 2 to 3 years. The problem is, if you give them Theo, Green and the #5, Boston loses just about any ability to further improve. You’ve got PP, KG and a bunch of role players. Swap Wally for Theo, hold back Green or throw in Minn’s future 1st for the #5 and the deal makes a lot more sense for Boston.

Cleveland proved just how bad the East is. Get KG…AND GET A BETTER COACH…and the Celts could be back in the Finals next year.

Mike

Pierce to Atlanta for the 3rd and 11th pick! Dooooo it!

Giving up that entire package for KG is way too much. Plus, wouldn’t Boston need to be sure that KG would sign an extension? I don’t think anybody wants to give up that package only to see KG walk next offseason.

I would assume for the sake of (non) argument that any deal for KG (or Kobe for that matter) means they negotiate away that opt-out clause.

From an outsider perspective I think it’s nutty to dismiss any Jefferson inclusion. He’s the only thing the Wolves want, outside of this year’s pick (think a future first will be worth much? C’s do plan on making the playoffs, right?). Gomes and (especially) Green are not really worthwhile. McHale has to sell it to the fanbase of Minnesota in some way, and Jefferson can do that.

Not that I like that particular package though. If Al’s in the deal, Ainge should try to include sending Wally to Minnesota. KG and Wally famously don’t get along anyway. I think if Ainge were willing to take back one of McHale’s mistakes (Hudson, Jaric, ::ugh:: Blount) they’d take Wally as his contract is at least shorter than those three.

So something like Ratliff, Wally, Jefferson, Telfair, Gomes/West/Green, #5 for KG and Jaric/Hudson.

::shrug:: that still seems like a lot to give but I’m a big KG fan. He’s not that far off from Duncan, dispite his ‘loser’ tag.

I’d do it for everything but Jefferson. Basically say to Minnesota take everything not named Pierce or Jefferson. I would imagine they’d go for Rondo, Green, 5, Theo if they do it.

Al Jefferson is a very good young player, but this board has always over valued him. Kevin Garnett is a once in a generation type player and we have the opportunity to acquire him. Remember what Pierce did with a middling #8 by side? I would pull the trigger on this deal in a second. You have to give up quality players to get quality players and this trade would be a perfect example.

We’re not trading Jefferson, that is an absolutely ridiculous rumor.

Dealing Pierce for KG makes some sense, but Paul wouldn’t go for it, so that’s out too. Otherwise, we probably don’t have enough assets – or we’d be selling the rest of the ship and it wouldn’t be worth it.

As for Pierce for the #3 and #11… Pierce wouldn’t go for that either. If we trade Pierce it would be to a contender, or to one of the L.A. teams, and that’s about it.

Pierce, #5 for Kobe is the most realistic thing I’ve seen recently, despite the fact Kobe hasn’t included Boston on his “wish list”.

I agree that they should NOT trade Jefferson for KG. But there has to be a way to negotiate off of that point if there really are trade talks going on.

BTW, wasn’t there a lot of talk comming out of Minny that KG and Wally don’t get along? shouldn’t Wally be in the trade as well?

@connelbe

You would trade Jefferson’s entire career for 2-3 years of KG in Boston?

That would be like Utah trading Deron Williams for Steve Nash. It’s nuts… that’s not how you build the type of talent and depth needed to win a title. If KG was the last piece to the puzzle perhaps, but he’s not. Jefferson is going to put up similar (or better) numbers than KG next year, mark my words… and his career is just starting.

Amen, connelbe. Garnett is twice the player Antoine was and PP thrived with him in the lineup. People who underrate Garnett should take a look at Duncan in this year’s finals. His stats were down, but his presence changed the entire way the game is played – especially defensively. KG’s impact would be similar. Plus, once you have those two key pieces, all of a sudden you’ll have other veterans wanting to come here for the MLE or a veteran’s minimum, just like they did with the HEAT. The roster would be depleted at first, but it would fill out and be ready for a run by the trade deadline or this time next summer.

 Would not give up Al and sell the next 10 years for a chance at being respectable for a couple years. Just not a good deal for the long term health of the club.

IF Jefferson isnt in the deal Minny wont do the trade…dont people understand that!

i’m definitely bringing a i hate wyc sign if that happens.

i don’t think we attract free agents anything close to other teams no matter who we get in trade.players know boston w/the racism i don’t see it.

IF Jefferson isnt in the deal Minny wont do the trade…dont people understand that!

YES! We understand that if that’s what it will take to get KG, a lot of us would pass on the deal. A lot of us would like to keep Al at all costs – so if we can get KG without giving up Al, great. Otherwise, no thanks.

Getting KG while keeping Al = WIN
Getting KG while losing Al = Loss (and a big one)

God, we look paper thin with that lineup, I think Wally would be starting though, with ‘lonte being the sixth man. The #5, Green, and Jefferson does seem like wayyyy too much at first thought, and a little beyond. SNAP OUT OF IT. Our hope as celtics fans, is that Green would become Pierce’s successor in 3-4 years, and Al Jefferson would put up Kevin Garnett like numbers interms of ppg and rpg. Realistically, the odds severely favor that not happening. It is one thing making an all-star team and being locks for the Hall-of-fame. That being said, there’s something beyond just numbers in how a tandem of Garnett/Pierce would be far better than we think. First, they have NEVER had a teammate as good as each other, they also have that same hunger and loyalty to winning and they know their time will start to run out soon. Garnett would BE HUGE IN BOSTON, bringing relevance back to our city in terms of basketball. Having Pierce and Garnett will make it easier for our other players, and they will develope faster and learn more about competetive basketball. It’s tough because the #5&Jefferson, but lets face it, no one on the current celtics will be as good as Pierce or Garnett. If you think otherwise, the 18 game losing streak must be one hell of a sales pitch. If you would really rather have Gerald/Yi/Jefferson over Pierce and Garnett, you must be crazy. I can’t think of any other 2 players in the league that deserve to play with each other more than Pierce and KG. If there is a time to pair them, it HAS TO BE NOW.

there are 100 gomes out there. minny laughs their tails off at gomes. trading al is so stupid it’s not even funny.

Hmmm… we’d get Garnett for two years at $45 million, while only giving up Jefferson, Green, Theo’s contract… and the 5th pick. Oh, yeah! That’d be a great deal. Gosh, they can even have our cow if they’ll throw in some of those ‘magic beans.’

My view is there are only 2 viable paths: 1) Keep Pierce and somehow pull in a top player for a run over the next few years, or 2) Trade Pierce and build for 4-5 years from now. The latter is my preference as I believe putting all the eggs in one basket is too risky. What people sometimes miss though is just how important, and how difficult, it is to get top 5-type player. If folks believe KG is that player, then you’ve got to get him to pair with Pierce. Like everyone, I love Al, but he does not look to me like he has top 5 written on him. Win now means getting a #1 to go with Pierce’s 1A. My view: Get KG or trade PP.

Well what do ya know…www.hoopshype.com is now reporting that the Suns are looking to give up Amare for KG. Ahhhh the summer..

I really have a hard time believing that there’s NO way this can’t happen without Jefferson being involved. As far as ticket sales go, Gerald Green and whoever comes in at #5 for Minnesota could take care of that (for now). And if they take on Ratliff, that salary is going to be coming off the books for them to take a splash of some sort after this year.

Simply put, I think trading away Garnett is an admission, on McHale’s part, that he’s finally trying to rebuild (which he should have started doing some time ago). Despite the rumored number of suitors out there (Chicago, Phoenix, what have you), the Celtics probably have the most logical pieces (high draft pick large, soon to expire contract young talent) to make something work. I honestly don’t think Jefferson is a deal breaker here for Minnesota—he’s probably just involved in McHale’s inital offer. And despite Ainge’s own foibles, don’t underestimate old Kevin’s general crapiness as a GM.

This looks more like a way of Ainge telling Pierce: “We tried to get you some help this Summer-didn’t you see all the rumors?”

Talk about overvalueing Gerald Green. Green is a dunk contest winner and that’s it. He played minutes on a terrible minutes and would not have seen the court if everyone was healthy last season.

The only way Minny would trade KG is with Al involved. KG is still one of the best 5 players in the NBA. Adding him with Pierce makes us a contender in the East immediately.

I also would love to add Wally in instead of Theo to then use Theo’s contract to pick up another piece to add to the team.

what would keep al jefferson from becoming a superstar.he has amazing touch,he CAN IMPROVE HIS POST MOVES. he’s already making guys look bad! when does he ever just go left-rarely. he did’nt even show his face up shot much which we know he has. how in the world is al jefferson going to be guarded when he’s more wiry strong,can go left, can shoot out to 20 feet. i mean ya just have to think WHAT KIND OF PLAYER IS AL JEFFERSON GOING TO BE AS A 6 YEAR VETERAN. OFF THE CHARTS!!!

I have always been a big fan of Big Al, but this board’s refusal to consider a proposal that would bring KG to town is laughable. I don’t like the deal as proposed (would have to keep #5 if giving up Al), but you have to consider it. As a reminder, I think it was ~1 year ago, but there was a poll up asking who you would rather keep, Al Jefferson or Kendrick Perkins. The majority of this board preferred the option of keeping Perkins- where are all of you?

jeff’s numbers will continue to improve for 3-6 years, garnets will begin to faqde over the same time frame.

no way do i include big al in the trade.

wbones1 said:
  “Would not give up Al and sell the next 10 years for a chance at being respectable for a couple years. Just not a good deal for the long term health of the club.”

No, not just a chance to be “respectable”. A chance to contend for the title, which judging by the ECF this year, we would. That is indeed worth the future, considering that the future does not include that kind of chance unless we land a player like, um, I don’t know…KEVIN GARNETT!

Al Jefferson is going to be a fine, fine ballplayer. KG is a Hall of Fame type player, one of the best in the game. There is no way that Minny is going to trade KG to the C’s, without getting Jeff back. No way. So, it again comes down to what you want to do – if you want to keep Pierce, you make the trade for Garnett, and you try to win now. If you want to build on Big Al, you trade Pierce for some young talent, and veteran role players(a Shane Battier type) And that’s the decision Danny(or maybe the ownership) has never had the guts to make

The Wolves just traded for JHoward. That’s a move of a team that is ready to go at it with KG one last time. This rumor doesn’t make sense to me.

   What were Garnetts numbers his 3rd year? I know he is a great player and will continue to be for several more, but I wouldn’t do this deal if we had Elton Brand instead of Jefferson, and think Jefferson can be Brand, a 20/10 guy regularly. If you trade him. keep the 5th and give up next years pick, or give them back theirs. But why trade a guy who’s 22 with high potential to be a star.

The question to ask is what is the ultimate goal? If we keep Al, then we go forward with the building, trying to get to the point where we seriously compete for a championship. A championship is the goal, I would assume. How long will that take? How much other top young talent will have to be added with Al. How good can Al become? Could he lead us, being the primary player, to a championship? If most of those questions can be answered in the affirmative then I would think we should sit tight and keep building. But if ultimately with Al and whatever collective talent, the ceiling is 2nd round of the playoffs or even conference finals then that wouldn’t be enough to dismiss this trade proposal. KG’s value going forward can be argued but I would assume that he has at least two more prime years left in him. There is nothing guaranteed in life. But the decision to be looked at is weighing the possibility of a championship with KG in the next two or three seasons versus the same possibility with a Jefferson led team over the next seven to ten seasons or so. If you think Al’s ceiling won’t deliver us a title but a consistent 50 win product year after year and that is satisfactory then I wouldn’t make the deal. If you think Al can lead us to a title then you don’t make the deal. But if the goal is #17 then it shouldn’t matter about seven years from now. If KG and Pierce could deliver that in the next two years then wouldn’t that be preferable over a 50 win team in 2012?

It is easy to love what Al could be in 2-3 years, but he is at least 2-3 years away from being a championship caliber player… if ever. KG and Pierce are both ready to compete right now. Anyone who wants to keep Al has to agree that we need to trade Pierce. They are too far apart at this point in their careers to help each other. Randy Foye and Big Al can grind it out in the West in 4 years. Pierce and KG need to win now, and so do the Celtics.

Every championship Celtics team that I recall (and I’m old enough to remember) had an organization developed core of prime time players. Russell, the Davises (Sam and KC) Heinsohn, Cousy, Havlicek, Cowens, White, Bird and McHale (I’m sure that I’m forgetting others) were all Red Auerbach signees. Red’s draft day trades for Bill Russell and Robert Parrish (along with McHale both for Joe Barry Carroll) were organization making moves. Red rarely made splashy moves for veterans (I can’t remember any off the top of my head) but knew when to acquire helpful role playing veterans (e.g. Paul Silas).

Curtis Rowe and Sidney Wicks (to illustrate the folly of acquiring veterans mostly for their symbolic value) were the Vin Bakers of the 70’s who badly bridged those few years between the Havlicek and Bird led champions.

Even if it defers bona fide title contention for another few years, the correct move is to keep building, filling in with veterans more to plug holes than to make splashy moves (i.e. acquiring KG) mainly to sell tickets and go through the motions before the team is truly ready to challenge for another title. If Ainge is pursuing a veteran at too high a cost in terms of young talent to appease Paul Pierce, then I don’t want Pierce.

If Pierce can get another close to top 10 pick in a strong draft year (after all he was selected 10th in his year) and a decent young veteran or future first round pick, Ainge should pull the trigger. For example, Joe Johnson (welcome back) and Atlanta’s #11 pick along with the kept #5 would mature together with the current crop of probable keepers (Jefferson and Rondo to start).

What can you get for #5? Dwayne Wade was the best player recently selected at that spot. Bird, Cowens and Jo Jo White (if I remember correctly) were both selected at about #6 with Bird essentially an astute draft and follow type selection as a draft eligible sophomore (after transferring from IU to Indiana State) by Auerbach.

Ainge shouldn’t trade down from #5. He should consider trading Pierce for another relatively high lottery pick this year. Two players from among Horford, Wright, Brewer and Conley (depending on who you like most with who is left after the first 4 picks) will be there at #5. Brewer is my choice (and almost still sure to be there at #5) because of his defense and makeup. If Conley gets picked by Atlanta at #3, Horford or Wright will drop to them. With a second pick in the 8-11 range, Ainge will choose whoever remains eligible (still on the draft board) where he gets his second high pick. At least one (if not two) from among Green, Yuanjian Li (less of a gamble if dropping to there), Noah and Thornton will be there. Brewer could even drop to the Celtics a few picks later if Conley is gone at #3 and Wright or Horford slide to #5.

My gut feeling is that, unless a truly favorable trade for another aging veteran (even for Kevin Garnett) materializes, then Ainge should go “all in” and attempt to get that second premium 2007 top 10 lottery type draft pick for Pierce and an expiring contract (to match salaries) and a young veteran or future #1 to get the kind of salary cap relief that the franchise has badly managed by repeatedly training for the Vin Bakers of the world. This isn’t to compare Garnett to Baker but trading for a player like him only works if the team is already on the verge of championship contention and is only one player away.

you know why this trade idea is beyond stupid? what if say we drafted yi or brandan wright and he howed tremendous potential. meanwhile gerald green is doing the same. two young potential stars plus theo may be a very intriguing offer by mid season. don’t get me wrong. i would bet against that but what if?

People continue to not understand that KG’s trade value is only as good as the best offer…it doesn’t matter what KG’s equivilent value is, Minnesota isn’t going to get that from any team that’s in a position to trade for him…

Minny will take the best offer…Boston doesn’t have to offer Jefferson and the 5th pick…that’s FAR more than any competitive team can offer…Chicago is the only contending-esque team that can put together a decent package…

KG will not re-sign with just any team and Minny won’t trade him to a Western Conference team…

who cares what Minny wants, they are going to need some compensation for KG and they’ll take the best offer…Haven’t seen another one that matches up..