So, What’s Plan B?

I’m glad the KG deal didn’t go down. I think the Celtics should turn to R. Lewis, as he might be the cheapest all-star available.

all these players seem to want to play with teams that are already champs,what fun is that? whatever. there are only a few players i guess like MJ in chi town that can take a lossing team and make them champs.

Not sure Rashard would come cheap and im not sure what he offers this team..that someone like Gerald couldnt turn into someday..

God, I hope this is true. I’d explore two Paul Pierce trade scenarios…
1) Pierce to Chicago for one or two of their young studs(Gordon? Thomas?).

2) Pierce for someones #1 pick(a bad team the will have a lottery pick – either this years or next years) and an expiring contract.

Along with our existing core(Al, Delonte, Rondo, Gomes, Perk), our #5 pick, and what we could get from either of the two above scenarios would load us with an extremely talented, young core and set us up to be competitive for years to come. The only thing left then would to be hire a coach that can teach these guys to play real man to man defense…and we’ll be on our way.

“After that, you start running out of stars to trade for. So you have to wonder if the team will finally reach the end of those options and seriously consider dealing Pierce and building the team around Jefferson. Sad as it may sound, that might be the option that makes the most sense at this point.”

I’m not sad at all. Pierce will be an injury risk for the rest of his career and a salary cap burden. Ainge should go all in. Trade Pierce for an expiring contract and, if he’s worth it, at least one more lottery pick in this year’s draft. Do the Celtics match up with Atlanta (for pick #11) or Charlotte for picks 8 and 22? Somebody decent is likely to slip to either lottery draft spot and, if the Hawks go for Conley at #3, Horford or Wright will be there at #5. That means that Brewer, Green or Li (or a combintation of those 3) could still be there at #8 or #11.

My gut says that, even if Pierce is traded, the team should be looking at picking up two lottery draftees who can play defense. Allen, Rondo and Perkins combined with two 2007 high lottery picks could give the Celtics a terrific defensive lineup that can shut down the opposition at crunch time in the fourth quarter.

Offense is overrated in the modern game and a team that has defenseive stoppers to finish games will have a real advantage.

As good a Pierce is individually, he has never been a player to elevate those who play arounnd him to higher levels. The ball tends to end up in his hands to the detriment of the team concept that historically made the old Celtics dynasty so formidable.

Brewer strikes me as a Havlicek type all around player who nows how to win and play unselfishly with other good teamates. His defense is sorely needed because with Jefferson and Greene (in particular) continuing to mature along with the other youngsters, offense won’t be a problem.

Trade Pierce and draft the best available big man and wing player with those premium picks (particularly if at least one of them is a good defender) and the team will improve much sooner than expected.

Plan B: Do nothing. I’m wondering if we’d really get anything that works by trading Pierce.
Draft Green or Brewer for that lockdown defender, and go from there.
I’m suddenly feeling very conservative.

Lewis is a nice thought but seperate because it doesn’t inc #5…Pierce w or w/o #5 would get us dozens of great offers…and we got Wally’s deal next yr…this next 18 months is crucial and Danny better make it work or it’s 15 yrs of losing…again

one thought, not sure if it is a good one or not, if danny decides to blow the team up how about trading with milwaukee- pp for bobby simmons, charlie V, and the #6. needs a little more salary to make it work but not a bad deal (if you like charlie v and somebody at the #6).

If all stars don’t want to come to play in Boston when Pierce is here, why on earth would they want to come if Pierce wasn’t here? Salary cap space is only good if you can spend it. Chicago found that out a few years ago when they had all that space and ended up having to give Ron Mercer $24 million because no one else would come there. That is the problem with the whole “trade Pierce for cap space and picks” idea. If players don’t want to come to Boston, the cap space isn’t going to get the Celtics anything. Trading Pierce will just leave the Celtics with a low paid 30 win team. Great if you are Wyc and looking to save money, not so great if you are a fan.

The Celtics young players are incredibly young. When Pierce’s deal is over in 4 years, Jefferson will only be 26 or 27. Allen, West and Perkins will still be under 30. The nucleaus the Celtics have will be here well past Pierce. I think the Celtics need to keep the fifth pick and use Wally or Theo’s contracts to trade for one solid vet to put with Pierce and Jefferson. That may be Gasol, or Kirlenko or Lewis or someone else of that caliber. Set that player’s contract up to run out when Pierce’s runs out, then make a run now at the delapidated East, continue to draft smart and let your players develop. Then in four years trade Pierce and the other vet and their then huge expiring contracts for players to build around the then veteran nucleaus of Jefferson, Green, Allen, Perkins, Rondo et al. I don’t know that that is a recipe for a championship. It might be if the young players really develop. But it is a recipe for a respectable basketball team for years to come. Considering that that is something the Celitcs haven’t had in about 15 years, I don’t see how we can really complain.

I’m with Old Hondo. This team could morph into a defensive powerhouse with one more defensive big and one more defensive wing. Pierce may be most valuable to us now in a trade for that big, and the draft could bring us the wing. Or maybe Theo/Wally could bring us the wing and we just draft the BPA.

If players are refusing to come here we need to trade Peirce and rebuild the way Chicago has, Through the draft. When you have a solid core that is on the verge of contending then you go out and spend on a free-agent.

We have some nice players we just need to be patient and keep a long term mind-set. If we could get a nice package from chicago or Golden state for Peirce I would jump on it. He only has 2-3 years of top level production left anyway. If no one wants to come here and play with him I dont see any other option than getting the best value and building a core through the draft.

The problem is that Ainge is in a tight spot and may loose his job if the team does not improve immediatly. It is a conflict of interests that may end up hurting the franchise for a long time to come.

“Doesnâ€â"¢t this team have one of the best young rosters in the league or are we fans really overvaluing our youth? Are Doc and Danny really thought of as Dumb and Dumber?”

This is where it really lies. There’s a segment of the fanbase that pegs every young player as making a huge leap or being on the verge of greatness or that honestly believes that because Jefferson made a huge statistical jump so will everyone else. Jefferson is BY FAR the most talented trade piece this team has and after that the values drop off the map. Rondo’s seen by a good portion of the fan base as completely off limits in trade talks, he wouldn’t have gotten off hte bench for 75% of the teams in the league last year and I can think of one or two where he might be considered a possible future starter on right now outside of Boston. This doesn’t even take into consideration Green, who at this point has zero trade value or close to it yet the perception is that Minnesota should have taken him because he’s gonna break out ‘just like Al did’.

The second problem is what happened record wise when Paul went down. All the young guys on the roster managed to win 1 of the first 23 games played without Paul. Any minutes on the court that could have been seen as ‘not-garbage time’ in most of those games were only such because other teams hadn’t decided to turn in on yet. Once they’d give 5 minutes of effort this team rolled over and died.

But the second half of the the highlighted comment is where things really break down. There’s a good segment of teams around the league that think of Danny Ainge as lucky Isiah THomas has a job so people don’t realize how bad he is. If you were a star on another team would you want to be dealt to a team that basically admitted 6 games into hte year last year that they’d completely given up? Would you want to go play for a coach and GM that accepted that? Would you want to play for a GM that has now had four years to put something in place around Pierce and everything he’s tried has completely backfired but whose fan base seemingly doesn’t want a deal made because it might involve too many of hte players that you watched give up for 76 games last year? Would you want to go play for someone whose reaction to sucking is to extend the coach that led the suckfest?

I think its pretty easy to see why players wouldn’t want to come here. I also think that if a guy like KG were dealt to Boston it might not take more than 2 months to break his mindset and convince him to stick around.

I have the sneaking feeling this is not dead yet….Kg seems to more upset with Minn then with Bos.

Can we all stop the silly nonsense of these trades and look at our product at hand.

Really, yesterday was a day for everyone to vent; well now its back to reality and our current club.

It doesn’t seem that Boston will make a trade before the draft and if it is it will not be a major trade.

The Celtics should just focus getting the best quality player with the 5th pick and then adding it to its current foundation.

Also Danny should look into locking Al Jefferson up long term to a contract.

As attractive as it may be in trading Paul Pierce, he hasn’t demanded a trade to the team, so that’s out of the question.

This team was decimated by injuries last year, and would have finished with 35-40 wins.

Well we saw the emergence of Al Jefferson and Tony Allen (sum what).

Gerald Green showed us flashes of what may or may not be down the road and Rondo showed us that he has the talent but needed more seasoning.

Everyone needs to get over the fact that Oden or Durant is not coming here, and if they did it still would have taken this team another 2-3 years before they are in the finals.

So what do we have currently, in my estimation we have a very good core already that can make the playoffs next season.

Don’t underestimate what being a Veteran and Maturity can bring to a club.

We have the foundation, I just don’t want to see us blow it up again… I don’t want to go back to the Pitno years… I’ve had enough as everyone in here has.

Let things be….use the 5th pick to grab the best available talent and add it to our current roster and we’ll be fine.

Again we have barginning chips with Ratliff, and If I’m Danny I keep Ratliff till the February trading deadline when his value will increase even more, because he is play money for only a couple of months at that point.

So for all the fun we’ve had here the last week or so with Garnett talk, it’s time to get back to reality with this team and deal with what we have.

I like Lewis, but why not see if we could swing the #5 for LaMarcus Aldridge? Wouldn’t Portland welcome a OSU reunion?

What do you mean “summer of upheaval”. The free agent list isn’t that great and the stars available ruin any youth base we’ve established. We have to pay a Boston premium to lure a “star”! Screw them. Boston is the best sports town.

It doesn’t make for good blogging but as Cool Hand Luke said “Sometimes nothing is a real cool hand”. We’ve got an above-average drafter going into a strong draft with a #5. We’ve got home grown youth all another year older. I’m counting on T Allen, Wally and even Ratliff helping next year. I’m expecting Gerald to be a star, not a bust, next year. I’m expecting Rondo to be very exciting.

I can’t help but throw out again the analogy of the Bulls. How they would look if they kept their youth (T. Chandler) instead of trading for “the veteran” Ben Wallace. Yup, sometimes nothing is a real cool hand.

Play that hand, Danny. It makes for dull blog story lines but that is your best move

Are the Celtics and its fans overvaluing its young players? Is the sky blue? There have been articles that more or less made this point in non-Boston media sources for years. And the incompetence of Ainge and Doc does not help.

This is not that complicated. Good management and a good situation = players want to come there. That is why people go to play for the New England Patriots and that is why people go to play for the San Antonio Spurs.

Get good executive leadership and all will follow.

As far as Ainge’s in competance goes, the fact is that he has the assets to overpay for Garnett. Minnisota would have done this deal, had Garnett not kibashed it. Moreover, the general agrement seems to be that the offer was too much for Garnett. When Ainge got here in 2003, is there anyway they could have overpaif for Garnett? Look at that roster sometime. There was no one here anyone wanted in 2003 besides Paul Pierce and the great chucker. Ainge has not been perfect, but the bottom line is that the roster is better now than it was then. If Ainge is another Isiah, why is that the Celtics could actually make a legit offer for Garnett and New York, couldn’t make an offer that would pass the laugh test? You guys can’t have it both ways. You can’t on the one hand claim that Ainge was giving away the farm for Garnett and then claim that Ainge is an idiot who has put together a terrible roster. If that roster is so bad and the young players are so lousy, how is it that the Celtics were able to make the best offer for Garnett?

Wild Blue,

Forget T-Chandler, what if they had Elton Brand? IF they hadn’t made that move, they could have T-Chandler and Elton Brand right now and probably gone to the finals this year. Sometimes the move you don’t make is the best one. I wouldn’t have complained if the Celtics had gotten Garnet for Jefferson or the 5 pick but both was just nuts. If Al Jefferson shows up in shape and is a 20 10 guy this year, the Celtics are not going to be bad.

I think a big piece of why stars don’t want to come here is Pierce. He hurt his rep playing for USA a few years ago.

Send Wally, Gomes, Veal and a 2008 pick next year to Utah for AK-47 and Giricek (expiring).

Send Gerald, Telfair and Ratliff to Charlotte for B Knight (expiring) and Gerald Wallace (sign and trade for 8-9 million annually.

Draft Brewer and Aaron Gray.

That would give the C’s a very nice blend of offense (PP, Al, Wallace, D West) and defense (Wallace, Perk, AK-47, Rondo, Brewer) at virtually every position. In 2007-2008 they would probably be just below the luxury tax threshold. In 2008-2009, they would have to resign Al starting at, say, 11 mil/year, and D West (4-5 mil) and let Knight, Giricek and Tony walk to stay below the threshold, but would give them this team in tact for at least a couple of years:

PG: Rondo, Vet minimum
SG: Pierce, West
SF: Wallace, Brewer
PF: AK-47, Powe
C: Big Al, Perk, Gray
plus, extra 2008 pick

If Danny could pull this off, the C’s would be contenders for at least the next three seasons.

Huge difference between the talent AJ has shown and the talent GG has shown. GG has a long way to becoming a star. I think he’s the bait this year, or more likely, next year.

DA should draft Brewer and use GG in the future trade with Wally to get the vet guys we need.

I feel bad for the kid but he most definately should have gone to college.

I think it is pretty simple. Keep the pick and draft Brewer (his D is key and he is a 3rd option on O starting day 1). Keep Rondo, Pierce and Jefferson and make everyone else available in a trade for a quality vet. The idea of getting a superstar is unrealistic. The key is to take a significant step but it cannot be seen as the last step. Trading Theo in the right deal is a must. Letting his contract expire would be a waste of an assets (see P. J. Brown). I think Theo, the pick from Minny and Green should be able to get you a good player to go with the keeps i mentioned, maybe Lewis.

I’m glad the KG stuff is over. I’m also a bit tired of hearing what we were going to give up. No one knows what was talked about. As to the effect on Big Al’s relationship to the team because he was supposedly offered up in a trade, I’d say this is not a problem. As to what to do next, I agree with Ancient Red and others expressing similar thoughts. I would also say that doing nothing is NOT doing nothing. What is Perk doing at healthpoint all summer, working on become worse of a player? Our guys are out there trying to improve their games. They will be better, they’ll have had a year together and will finally begin to be able to concentrate on team things as opposed to individual learning and improvement. I also think we can get some good players in this draft. We might also be able to get a free agent if one is there that could help. Sometimes things happen for the best.

People are sick of hearing my Plan B so I won’t repeat it. But I do have some observations.

1. As reported on RealGM and elsewhere, the proposed KG deal did, in fact, involve both Szczerbiak and Ratliff going to MN. So as I said, it was a financial/PR move as much as it was a basketball move. Shades of Vin Baker, who was acquired in part because they didn’t want to pay Rodney Rogers. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

2. Good column by Callahan in the Herald which echoes what many of us said here yesterday.

3. If you want to know how to become respectable in a hurry, look at what Toronto did— in less than a year. You build a roster that makes sense. You go after experienced European free agents. You solidify the point guard position. You build incrementally.

4. In a fantasy league, you can win with 5 offensive players who fill up the stat sheet. You can’t do that in the NBA. In the NBA it takes defense to win, and “Plan B” (or Plan A or Plan Z or Plan 9 from Outer Space) has to revolve around improving this team defensively. The Celtics desperately need post defense and another good wing defender. Also, while they have some competent individual defenders (Allen, West, Rondo),their TEAM defense sucks, particularly in the paint. Until they put a major effort into improving defensively, whether via player acquisitions, better coaching or better rotations (Pierce and Szczerbiak on the court together is a recipe for defensive disaster), any moves they make are pure window dressing.

I glad the deal seems to be dead. I am in the majority that the C’s would be giving up too much for KG. I think the foundation with PP and AL is there.

What was frustrating was hearing the local media pushing this trade (except for a few exception like Callahan, and Borges) like it is the only option despite the lack of support from the fanbase.

Note to the media: We are OK with the development of these young guys. Look at the attendance, read the blogs.

I’m glad to see you’ve finally seen the light about trading Pierce- it is the ONLY option we have at this point. Rashard Lewis may come here but I wouldn’t count on it. I think Danny has to serously consider moving pierce right now and try to get another pick in the top 12 plus a young player- ben gordon, tyus thomas? the pierce era is over and keeping him is only going to delay the rebuilding. If he didn’t make so much I would have no problem keeping him around but with the salary cap etc he is a luxury we can’t afford

also, as a friend of mine pointed out, can you imagine jefferson and blount on the same team again? that would have been downright cruel by Danny

4. In a fantasy league, you can win with 5 offensive players who fill up the stat sheet. You can’t do that in the NBA. In the NBA it takes defense to win, and “Plan B” (or Plan A or Plan Z or Plan 9 from Outer Space) has to revolve around improving this team defensively. The Celtics desperately need post defense and another good wing defender.

Exactly. What this team needs first and foremost is defense and a chip on it’s shoulder. That should be priority #1.

Rashard Lewis may come here but I wouldn’t count on it. I think Danny has to serously consider moving pierce right now and try to get another pick in the top 12 plus a young player- ben gordon, tyus thomas? the pierce era is over and keeping him is only going to delay the rebuilding.

It’s more likely that there won’t be a key free agent signing. Seriously, when is the last time the Celtics were able to get a marquee player via free agency? Now obviously, their hands have been tied for financial reasons for the past few years. However, I’d have to go back quite a long time to find a player or players that WANTED to be in Boston.
There was actually a point in time when players happily accepted trades to Boston (DJ, Walton, Tiny, etc.). But, that ship has sailed, for whatever reason. Being perennially mediocre/losers certainly doesn’t help.

even if we take brewer we need another big man. we can’t go into next year with just perkins, al and scal. we are way too small. on a need basis wright or noah or even hawes fit the bill more than brewer but small forward has been a problem for us as well. I hate to keep harping on it but if we could trade pierce and get a brandan wirght or a noah or a hawes we should do it. How about pierce to charlotte for a re-signed gerald wallace , thier 8 pick and cap filler?

even if we take brewer we need another big man. we can’t go into next year with just perkins, al and scal. we are way too small.

That’s perfect for Doc’s desired style of play. ;D

Jeff said:

"Umm, whatâ€â"¢s so bad about Boston? Is the weather really that bad? Is the racist-city reputation still that strong? None of that matters to NFL stars that take less money to play for the Pats.

Doesnâ€â"¢t this team have one of the best young rosters in the league or are we fans really overvaluing our youth? Are Doc and Danny really thought of as Dumb and Dumber?"

What I’ve read in terms of comments from GMs around the league is that they really AREN’T calamoring for our guys. Al is really the only bonified keeper. We’ll see about Rondo this year. Kendrick, Delonte, and Ryan are all nice back ups on a good team. Green, so far, is tremendous athlete, but a horrible player. Allen’s career, sadly, is very much up in the air. Powe, Ray, et al aren’t on anyone’s radar screen. In short, THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. (Well, maybe a Big Al Jefferson jersey, but that’s IT.)

As for Boston, yeah, the weather sucks. But last time I checked, people weren’t looking to spend their winter vacations in Detroit or Indiana either and they’ve done pretty well. We’re in a good media market. We’ve got a strong tradition (that ownership and managment are sadly tarnishing). Build a solid team and clear the cap space, and surprise, surprise, Boston will be a desirable place to go.

A couple of other observations:

1. The KG deal as reported on RealGM wasn’t nearly as bad as some of the rumors. It was Jefferson, Szczerbiak, Ratliff and #5 for KG. That’s it. The Celtics would have kept Rondo, West, Allen, Gomes and Green, which means they might have had a decent supporting cast to go along with KG and Pierce. But it still would have been trading a 10 year window for a 2 year window.

2. One reason why Ainge might have been willing to part with Jefferson is that there may be issues between Jefferson and Rivers. I don’t think Rivers likes Big Al, and I don’t think Big Al likes Rivers, who accused Jefferson of dogging it when he was hurt. Rivers is a coach who has pets, and Big Al isn’t one of them.

3. Once again, whether you liked Chris Wallace or hated him, we now have a situation where the primary voice in Ainge’s ear is Doc Rivers. That scares the hell out of me. Rivers can’t coach and he proved in Orlando that he is a terrible judge of talent.

4. Can we stop with the pipe dream trades of Wally Szczerbiak for Kirilenko? Jerry Sloan isn’t stupid. He knows Kirilenko is a good player who had a bad year. To get Kirilenko it will take Pierce. Whether you like the idea or not, that’s the price. Kirilenko does many, many good things apart from scoring.

5. If the Celtics do not make a major effort to move Pierce either on draft night or over the Summer, it will confirm my belief that Wyc Grousbeck is unwilling to make a decision that might be unpopular in the short run (and might cost a few ticket sales) in order to improve the team in the long run. So when he and the other VC owners say “we’re in it for the long haul,” I have trouble believing them. Look at what they do, not what they say.

I like our current lineup with the #5 pick added if healthy. Sometimes the best trade is no trade at all.

I am sure Green,Rondo,Perk will all improve next yr and gives us a boost that we need to get into the playoffs!

mcpu40 said:

“Garnett is a ME FIRST guy…that’s obvious…so they don’t appear to be landing KG.”

I don’t think KG is a “me first” guy at all. If he were, he would have asked for a trade years ago. In fact, he has been incredibly loyal to the Wolves (and has been compensated handsomely for that loyalty,but that would have been the case no matter where he played).

One further comment:

6. The Celtics young players will not have real value around the league until they start to win. It’s that simple. Rivers’ poor coaching, coupled with flagrant tanking, have been major factors in the devaluation of players like West, Perkins, Green and Gomes. If this team comes out and wins 45 games (it won’t with Rivers, but it might with a better coach), the value of these players will skyrocket.

6. The Celtics young players will not have real value around the league until they start to win. It’s that simple. Rivers’ poor coaching, coupled with flagrant tanking, have been major factors in the devaluation of players like West, Perkins, Green and Gomes. If this team comes out and wins 45 games (it won’t with Rivers, but it might with a better coach), the value of these players will skyrocket.

Additonally, many of us overvalue the Celtics’ players, thereby giving them a false sense of high value. But yes, winning would certainly almost cure all ills in terms of adding legitimate talent to the roster.

why are so many people lobbying for the celtics to trade in their chips for rashard lewis? what hole does he fill here? he’s a scoring wing who doesn’t play defense – don’t we have enough of those already?

also, people talk about kirilenko, who i really like. but i think brewer will be just as good, and he’ll surely be available at 5.

I would rather trade Pierce than BigAl at this stage in their careers. I wonder if the Celtics had a competent head coach, would KG consider the Celtics as an option. BigAl & the 5th pick are too much to offer for KG. Hope KG does not do a flip flop. Money talks but we do not need KG for what it would cost us.

No one wants to play in Utah either, but they seem to do okay. Part of it is the NBA culture. The NBA has more hip hop knuckleheads who are more interested in hanging out with rap stars and going to the right strip club than they are in winning. I think in Garnett’s case, he wants to win a title and wants to go to Pheonix and play with Nash and no where else. Stars of his stature ussually get what they want. I don’t think it is anything personal against Boston. It is just Garnett knows the window is closing and he wants to win. I don’t think Garnett is your typical NBA knucklehead making his career decisions based on the quality of strip clubs in the city.

If the Celtics are smart and resign their young players to reasonable deals, which I think they will, they didn’t over pay for Perkins last year, they are one or at most two years away from not having one bad contract on their roster. Yeah, Pierce is expensive but he produces. A bad contract is Kirlenkop making millions and producing 5 points a game last year.

There are no magic answers. All the Celtics can do is keep drafting good players and make a smart move it one is avaialable. With the five pick the Celtics should get Brewer or Green or Thornton. A proven college player ready to play now. Not some 19 year old project with a high cieling. Next year when Al is going for 19 and 10 a night and say Corry Brewer is one of the top rookies in the league, I think a lot of people will be glad the Celtics didn’t make this trade.

“In the past 3 years he’s been linked in every single trade rumor for the Celtics.”

Because he’s the only piece with enough trade juice to land something worthwhile.

“Because he’s the only piece with enough trade juice to land something worthwhile.”

That is true. But, don’t forget he was considered untouchable last year during the Iverson saga. Danny was willing to give him up for Garnett. That is hardly a slap in the face. I think if he is healthy next year and consistently produces the way he did the second half of this year, you won’t hear Al listed in any more trade rumors. At that point he will be a 22 year old PF going for 19 and 10 a game, that might not be franchise level, but it is certainly cornerstone of franchise level.

Paul Pierce will be pretty hard to move for draft picks and expiring contracts. Every team in the league wants to do that; cover up their previous blunders. If we hadn’t extended him last summer, there’d be way Celtics would be in a worse position. He’d be exactly where Vince Carter is. There’s no team out there going to pay him $15 MM per year. And no team is very interested in Pierce for $75MM over the next 4 years unless we take back their trash.
   Defense is going to be the key for Boston. Noah might be just what Celtics need. But I think DAinge will make Yi the choice.
   People around this site have talked about Celtics trading down for 8/22 pick of Charlotte. Who would they be looking for? Conley? Brandon Wright? Yi?

VT Bill,

You are exactly right. Pierce made himself a lifetime Celtic when he signed that deal. No one is going to take Pierce and his contract without giving trash back. Say what you want about Pierce but he does produce. The money has got to go somewhere. I would rather give it to Pierce, a guy who is going to show up and score 25 a night then trade him away for a bunch of guys making a ton of money who don’t produce and “draft picks”. Pierce has four good years left in him. Let his contract run and then either trade his expiring deal at the deadline or just let him go. The fact is that the Celtics probably have an All Star in Jefferson and will have him for the next 10 years at least. Try to win during the first four of those with Pierce, when Pierce leaves the issue will be who to pair with Jefferson. I really think the Celtics are only a defensive big man and a wing defender from being very competetive. They can get one of those in the draft. Between Wally and Theo Ratliff’s soon to be expiring contracts, they can get the other piece.

“But, don’t forget he was considered untouchable last year during the Iverson saga. Danny was willing to give him up for Garnett.”

Yep, and I think giving him up for Garnett would have been okay. I don’t know how okay I would have been with the pick being involved as well. But I’m a pretty firm believer that you don’t deal big for small.

“I think if he is healthy next year and consistently produces the way he did the second half of this year, you won’t hear Al listed in any more trade rumors.”

The big key will be in whether the team is winning or not. If he’s locked into a long term max deal (which I think is a given at this point) and producing 19-10 while the team sucks I think there’s still a solid chance they’d look to move him if the right package came along.

The question on Al is much the same as it is with JO, Brand and a lot of the second tier big men in the league: can a team compete on a nightly basis with them having to carry the mail? with the changes the leagues made to rules its hard for bigs to be number one options on teams unless they’re truly special types. There’s a concern I have that Jefferson might be a guy who can play the #1 fiddle and you’ll have an okay team, but if you could get him as your second fiddle to a dynamic wing player and put in the role pieces around those two you’d really have a chance at building a winner.

Just for odd comparison reasons, imagine if Seattle and Indy completed a deal sending JO to Seattle for Rashard Lewis and Chris Wilcox. In Indy JO is thier number one option and it hasn’t really worked, how good of a second or third option would he make with Kevin Durant and Ray Allen around him in Seattle?

I wonder if KG would feel differently about coming to Boston if we’re able to keep Big Al out of the deal?

I knoow most of the media doesnt respect Al but the players do and I think KG, Al & Pierce is enough to beat the Spurs.

Hopefully its not over yet and KG’s price just got a little lower.

SCotty,

The JO and Al comparison is pretty good. Of course don’t forget Peirce. Pierce has never been able to play with a 19 10 big guy. Think of the collection of garbage PF and Cs the Celtics have had since Pierce became an all star. If Jefferson grows up this year and Pierce is his usual self, that is a pretty good combo. Who else in the East has two players of that caliber? I think that La Bron James or Gilbert Arenas would sure love to have a 19 10 PF to play with. I know Chicago would love to have a guy down low who can do something besides play defense. Scouts admit that the Celtics can score on anyone. They just can’t defend. If the Celtics can get a big time defender in the draft or trade for one, to put with Jefferson and Pierce, they would have a chance to do some damage. I still think they should maybe take a chance on Kirlenko. I can’t beleive Utah doesn’t want to kill him after giving him that big contract and seeing him turn into such a stiff this year and Wally seems to be recovering and would fit in really well in Utah and has a shorter contract. That deal might make sense for both teams. It is a risk, but perhaps a change of scenery would revitalize Kirelenko. If you have Pierce, Brewer, a revitalized Kirlenko, and Al Jefferson, you have real chance.

I can’t blame KG at all. If you are KG on the outside looking in at the Celtics, is there anything that makes you think they will be a winning team any time soon.

KG see the job that bussies McHale and Ainge have done running franchises and wants no part of it any more. He wants a chance to compete for a ring in one year he can pick a team that has a shot… probably at a $$$ cost to himself. I can’t fault him at all for that.

IMHO, if the #5, Gomes or West, and junk contract (Theo/Wally) could be used to get Rashad Lewis, I do the deal.

I know his defense is subpar to say the least, and we may be horrendous on defense. However with Lewis, Al, Pierce, Rondo, etc we have the fire power to get into the upper echelon of the East. There were probably at least 5 teams in the West that would have beaten the Cavs. It won’t take much to get us over the hump and Lewis can light it up with the best of them.

If the Danny is not going to trade Pierce, this is the best talent we can get for a trade that doesn’t include Al (Kobe won’t happen, and for Gasol or Jermaine they will demand Al or Pierce in return and I won’t part with Al).

Oops buddies not bussies… ;D

Plan D –
Pierce to Dallas for Howard, Terry/Harris

just go get Gasol already. Someone needs to start a rumor about this so the GM’s actually discuss it.

I’m very happy keeping AJ and #5 pick. That’s the ticket for starting to turn this franchise around.

I’m honestly in the trade DA camp now – the way he’s waffled on Jefferson is pissing me off – especially since i wholeheartedly believe AJ has GREAT things ahead of him.

Last season Al is on the block, then after the trade deadline and at the end of the season, he was untradeable…then suddenly he’s the main piece in a trade.

I won’t rant about my thoughts on KG vs Al (though I will say their paths will converge sooner rather than later performance wise with Al progressing and KG degressing) but we are better long term w/ AJ on this team. KG may have been one of the best players during his generation, but that is the LAST generation. Not the current one.

Rashard Lewis does nothing for this team. He’s the same player as Gerald Green, except that he’s an inch taller and a few years older.

You could get plenty for Pierce if its the right spot. You need to find a team like Dallas, Utah, Chicago or Detroit that needs one more piece to get over the top. I would put Phoenix on the list too, but they are looking to dump salary, not add it.

If the Lakers can’t get JO, maybe they will offer Kwame’s expiring deal, Bynum and #19 for Pierce, as a way to pacify Kobe. I would also call Golden State to see if I could get a package that included Biedrins.

Heyvik, I like your idea of Pierce trade for Dallas’ Howard/Terry. However as the KG trade offer proved, management is enamored with Pierce and I don’t see a Pierce trade going down although IMHO it should be explored. If good young talent can come back to work in the future with Al, the Pierce trade should go down but then again I’m not the Danny.

Thank you mcpu40. The more I think about it, the more excited I am about the idea of getting Brewer. The Celtics are going to have to play in the East for the next 10 years playing LaBron James and Arenas and maybe even Kobe Bryant seven or eight times a year each. They have got to get a wing defender who can match up with those guys. Brewer is probably that defender and he has the potential to have a big offensive game to. Further, if Allen can come back, Brewer and Allen would make opposing wing’s lives miserable.

“If the Lakers can’t get JO, maybe they will offer Kwame’s expiring deal, Bynum and #19 for Pierce, as a way to pacify Kobe.”

That is actually one Pierce deal I would do. I think Bynum is about to break out and him and Jefferson would terrorize the East for a decade. But no way do the Lakers do that. All they would get out of it would be a better verion of the Nuggets as a team and the horror of watching Bynum, the one good draft pick Kupchack has ever made, become an all star for the hated Celtics. Great idea, but it will never happen.

Brick, I agree with you that Pierce should be considered and I am in favor of moving him as you are. The problem is C management is not on the same page.

Where I disagree is R. Lewis can light it up night in and night out. Gerald Green hasn’t proven he can do that. Many go Gerald’s best games have come toward the end of the season too when playoff teams are resting starters, tanking to some degree is going on, and bench players are getting minutes to see what they can do.

  We NEED a very good, very big man. We cannot win without it. I wanted Hibbard very badly (if, and as they did, the ping-pong balls failed us). Small forwards are a dime a dozen, ditto shooting guards. A good PF, VERY good Center and a very good PG are VITAL. We have Jeff and Rondo. No center! Give us a Wilt, Russ, Shaq, Duncan and we are a playoff monster. Why do you think LA, Miami and San Antone have won most of the titles in the last dozen years, with the aberation of Detroit (who had a center who could rebound and defense, even if small and unable to score) also winning?

Wilt,

I agree with you about a Center. The problem is that management is so wedding to the idea of having a running team, they will never take a big Center like Hibbert. They will take a smaller athletic guy like Thornton or a 7 foot high post guy like Yi before they do that. I love guys who can score with their backs to the basket and hate jump shooting big men. Hell, I never liked Karl Malone that much. He rebounded but the only way he scored was finishing and shooting 15 footers. The other guy I like in this draft is Grey. He will probably be there at 32 and is a K-Mart version of Hibbert. He won’t be a star, but you watch, he will be a consistent 12 6 guy in the league for years. Not bad value for a second round pick.

The Garnett deal was a smokescreen. There are better deals to be had. Garnett’s contract was too big, he’s leaving after 1 year, and your giving away the farm just to be competitive. ;D

I’m new to this site but wanted to chime in with a couple of thoughts. First, I am not sure that any one defensive player is going to help out the overall defensive situation of the Celtics. As proven by the Spurs most recently in the Finals, a Bruce Bowen type perimeter defender in this league is only as good as the big man backing him up and the overall committment of the entire team to help off the ball. While Brewer would be nice, I prefer Green in the upcoming draft as a decent defender, good passer, and large 3 who can take smaller players into the post.
Second, I whole-heartedly agree with everyone who has said that the #5 and Jefferson was too much to pay for Garnett. The trajectory of their careers is completely opposite and I see no reason to pay $24 million for an extra 6 points, 2 rebounds, and 3 assists (based on last years numbers).
I personally am a fan of the wait and see approach with this team for the time being. I think this year will help to clarify a lot of the future direction of the team as many decision are going to have to be made about which players to extend and at what money. Also, I am not a believer in the fact that a 29 year old Pierce is suddenly over the hill and we are unable to build a quality team around him. In 3 years he will be 32 and Jefferson/West/Rondo/Gomes/Allen will all be entering the prime of their careers. I think there is something to be said for keeping a guy who wants to retire a Celtic around when at the very least he could fill a Reggie Miller role should it take 3 years for the young core to fully mature.

With the Garnett rumor officially put to rest, we can outrule the prospect of making a quick, 2-3 year push for a championship. As sick as we all are of hearing it, the Celtics plan is in the long term.

With that said, Pierce’s presence on the team becomes problematic for a couple reasons. First, the window of time before he falls out of his prime is rapidly approaching. He undoubtedly has a few good seasons left in him, but his injury this season was a sign of things to come. Secondly, on a team that’s entire future revolves around developping young talent, I’m not sure its good for the team’s culture to involve that “defer-to-superstar” mentality. Ainge needs to instill a sense of confidence in Jefferson, Green, and Rondo, and what better way to do so then point them and say, “You’re our core. Play.” With Pierce going for 25 every night, everybody else’s contributions diminish and the young talent never establishes the sense of importance and responsibilty that Pierce’s absence would demand.

Need proof? A few years back, Paxson and Skiles threw a young group on the floor. They looked at Hinrich, Deng, and Gordon, and recognized that their successed hinged on their development. Now, they’ve emerged as one of the main contenders in the East, and are only improving as time goes on. Throw Brewer or Green in the mix for the Celtics, and their core looks even more promising.

With that said, the Celts should deal Pierce. Get some package of young players, and most imporantly, a draft pick. I don’t think people realize how rare a draft class of this talent and depth is. It may not have 4 all-NBA players sitting at the top (though it definitely has 2), but this is the deepest lottery the NBA’s had for a while. If we could land Brewer and a Noah or Yi, that would be amazing. Even options towards the end of the first like Morris Almond or Sean Williams are enticing.

Dealing Pierce would represent a full commitment to building the franchise on a solid, talented base of young players, which at this point, is our most logical path.

"2. One reason why Ainge might have been willing to part with Jefferson is that there may be issues between Jefferson and Rivers. I don’t think Rivers likes Big Al, and I don’t think Big Al likes Rivers, who accused Jefferson of dogging it when he was hurt. Rivers is a coach who has pets, and Big Al isn’t one of them.

3. Once again, whether you liked Chris Wallace or hated him, we now have a situation where the primary voice in Ainge’s ear is Doc Rivers. That scares the hell out of me. Rivers can’t coach and he proved in Orlando that he is a terrible judge of talent."

I wonder what all the media folks who kiss Doc’s butt would think about Ainge getting rid of Al just to keep Doc happy? No coach with as bad a record has ever gotten less criticism than Doc Rivers.

Frankly, the Celts really don’t need to make a move this year. Theo’s expiring deal will simply pay for Al’s extension. It’s next offseason that’s do or die. If Green doesn’t explode this year, which would allow Boston to let Wally go and use his big deal to extend Green, Ainge will have to turn Wally into something.

Mike

“2. One reason why Ainge might have been willing to part with Jefferson is that there may be issues between Jefferson and Rivers. I don’t think Rivers likes Big Al, and I don’t think Big Al likes Rivers, who accused Jefferson of dogging it when he was hurt. Rivers is a coach who has pets, and Big Al isn’t one of them”

The NBA is a players league not a coaches league. In any sane organization, when a quality young player like Jefferson gets into it with the coach, the coach is sent packing. If that is true, Ainge and Doc both needed to be canned post haste. We can find a borken down coach a hell of a lot easier than we can find another 22 year old PF who may go for 20 10 next year.

mcpu40-

You’re right. Water sales would be devastated.

What a sad, sad state professional basketball is in.

“Whatâ€â"¢s it going to take to make Boston a viable destination again?”

Pray to god Mike Conley Jr. is available at #5. Forget about how many draft picks we’ve burned on point guards in the past few years — it’s going to take someone young and exciting who makes his teammates better to help the C’s get a free agent. That guy is Mike Conley Jr. I like Rondo, but you take the best player available, and Conley is the guy. Worst case scenario: we do what Chicago did, dangling Duhon and keeping Hinrich.

There is no reason to dump Pierce for contracts and picks. We are in a good pick situation, with all of our own plus an extra second rounder and a future first/second from Minny. Our contract situation is fine, we can let Theo and Wally expire if we need the cash to make room. We don’t have many young guys that will be hard to extend, and they are replaceable if they leave. Just resign Al for the best deal you can (perhaps he’ll take a few less dollars as long as there is a trade kicker now?) and let things play out. Another superstar will get disgruntled and we can get in on that.

Heck, I’m sure AI was vetoing trades to DEN in the summer of 06…

While Boston is a great town I can see why it is difficult to lure big time free agents or in this case ask a player to accept a trade. This city is unusually white, cold, boring, and if you are going to be in the northeast why not be in NYC? This of course is all in terms of being rich, young, black, and famous. And the Celtics suck now which is depressing.

Players that go to the Patriots for less money are usually older and looking for a championship. CLEARLY that isn’t happening here.

We have offense and depth. We don’t have defense and players with the mental toughness to make plays in the last 3 minutes. Unfortunately, the coach is a major cause of these problems, but we can still move forward on defense and mental toughness with Horford, Conley or Brewer.

Which of these we get will dictate the teams remaining needs.I’d say Horford is the least likely to be available, so we are likely to have a glaring need for an athletic defender at the 4/5 who can help defend the high pick, which everyone tears us up with. We are
lucky to have Al, so we can afford to have a player who has offensive deficiencies playing at that spot. There are several players like that in the league, and we need one.

We cannot afford to spend a major contract on someone who can’t make significant contributions to a championship level team. Since we have Al Jefferson, we cannot add a 4 or 5 without significant defensive talents. A Rashard Lewis type player would guarantee mediocrity.

“Exactly. What this team needs first and foremost is defense and a chip on it’s shoulder. That should be priority #1.”

And yet, people were upset about the idea of replacing Jefferson with Garnett, one of the best defenders in the league…okay, the trade talks are dead, i’ll stop talking about it. But just saying…

Cold weather teams alwways have a hard time, in free agency. As do teams that are in states with an income tax. Yes, detroit is a finals contender, but they had to build their team very differently then Phoenix, or Miami, etc. They couldn’t get premium free agents, so they had to go after cast-offs, guys with chips on their shoulder. Now, of course, they can get guys to sign with them that want a title chance(same as the Pats) But the Celtics are the second worst franchise in Basketball. BIG difference

The #1 priority would be to draft Corey Brewer with the 5th pick.
I’d then explore trades with The Grizzlies, Hawks & Minnesota to try and acquire their high draft picks while shipping out PP. I’d use our 3 picks on 1)Horford, 2)Brewer and 3)Thornton.
It’s time to blow it up.

I’d think the lakers would jump on Pierce for Kwame, Bynum, and #19, if they can keep Kobe. A team of PP, Kobe, and Odom, with Mihm and Turiaf at Center, plus some other stiff they can find at center, would be very competitve, but expensive. But Ric Bucher says no way Kobe is there this fall. I don’t know how he knows, but he thinks he does. Anyway, Boston should do that deal. Lots of teams would have interest in Bynum, maybe even Celtics. But they could easily move him. Wouldn’t Atlanta give up #3 for him? Philly would give up 12 and 20 whatever.

Guys,,,, there’s too much spinning going around here…with this and that…. our heads are beginning to swell

Seems that the ship is calm right now…. nothing going on in the NBA world as far as trade proposals

So let’s focus with what we have and stop bashing Danny and Doc….

Face it, they are not going anywhere, because your opinion doesn’t matter to the Celtics, Management will continue to do as they please…. To them we are but a small pebble with this blog….

So think about what we have and who we can get in the draft……

John CK,
 My sense was that the players liked Doc. Most of them , of course, are kids and respect the authority, but the ones that are here, I thought they really liked him. You are right tho, we can replace him in a few minutes.

mcpu40 said:

“Logic doesn’t sell tickets / hot dogs / tee shirts / advertising / WATER / etc.”

Well that’s right. Trading Pierce would likely have adverse financial consequences in the short run. But I say again, are these owners in it for the long haul or not?

If they are, they should be looking to build equity, like any investor. And you don’t build equity by hanging on to a wasting asset like Pierce until its all gone.

Pardon my cynisism, but IMHO the Garnett deal was a move to make the team more attractive to potential purchasers, not a move to increase value in the long run.

They would have been HAPPY to get KG for a year and then opt out, because that would save 24 million dollars PLUS the millions they are going to have to pay Jefferson to keep him.

Unfortunately, they can’t sell the deal to the fan base and the Boston press now that Garnett has said publicly that he plans to opt out. If he had just kept his mouth shut, they would have gone ahead with the trade, KNOWING that he would opt out.

Why did KG speak up? Because he has a 15% trade kicker, that does not become effective until after July 1. So the last thing KG and his agent want is a draft night trade, since the kicker will not activate if he is moved on June 29.

And that’s why people like Bulpett are saying the deal isn’t dead. The rumors will surface again in July, and the Celtics will tell KG and his agent: look, we don’t care if you opt out and we’ll do the best we can to trade you to a contender at the deadline. But just come out with a statement that you’ve had a change of heart about Boston.

These owners are no better than the Gastons. Once again, look at their actions (or inactions), not their words.

I love the idea of AK and Lewis. But I think if we are keeping Pierce we are only going to be able to afford one of AK and Lewis. We also have to keep in mind that AK, Lewis and Pierce would be big contracts hanging over us when it is time to give Big Al a new contract. I think we could get AK for relatively cheap, and Lewis seems to be intrigued by playing here with his apparent buddy Gerald Green (anyone else curious about how they are such close friends when they are several years about, is it just from their passings in the NBA?) and lastly I would try and get some sort of Paul deal to Chicago for Ben Gordon and Tyrus Thomas. I think AK and Al would compliment each other very well down low on offense and defense and I think Gordon and Lewis would be good on the wings. Hopefully Rondo can keep developing and I dont think thats half bad for now and you still have the likes of Rondo, Green, Al and our number 5 pick for the furture.

Brickowski, if that was a joke you are funny. That is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read

It’s not ridiculous at all. These owners make Paul Gaston look like Mother Theresa.

Look at the Rivers situation. They were too cheap to eat the 5 million and hire a real coach. So they concocted a phony-baloney “extension” which allowed Rivers to save face and for them to dump him for a million or so at the end of this year. That’s basically his fee for conducting a seminar in “Tanking 101” this past season.

Of course, Rivers gets the full 5 million next year if he meets his “incentives” (whatever those are), and that’s why Rivers would be delighted to dump Jefferson for KG for a few more wins this year and why his buddy Ainge is doing the best to accomodate him.

mcpu40 said:

"That all ‘sounds’ plausible Brick.

But if it were ‘actually’ the case, don’t think it would be bordering on illegal?

Or at the very least, immoral and down right unfair to the paying fans?"

What’s illegal about trying to save money, especially when you paid 350 million for a franchise that is now worth (at best) 285 million 4 years later?

As for being “unfair to the fans,” it’s no more unfair than blatant tanking, which they practiced for the last 25 games last season.

And there were plenty of “fans” who would rather have Garnett for one year than Jefferson for 10 years, starting with the loudmouths on WEEI.

I still like the Bill Simmons AK idea: take Brewer, keep Al, go after AK.

What do you think it would take to get AK though? To me Theo & Gerald for AK makes sense for both teams.

It would take Pierce to get AK. Nothing less.

I dont believe it will take that much to get AK from Utah. Utah was dissapointed with the way he played and acted last year, they are forced to often play him out of position with Okur and Boozer, and they would love to get out from under his contract so they can save money for Williams, Okur and Boozer. I think we are looking at a trade more along the lines of Wally/Theo and West/Gomes for AK. Keep in mind his contract is much bigger than his play now delivers but he is still a very good defensive player and would be a good number three option, we would just have to take on that huge salary.

“Is the racist-city reputation still that strong?”

I lived in Boston from birth to age 16, then again from 19 to 29.

In the meantime and in the years since, I’v lived in Atlanta, New York and Los Angeles.

Let me tell you, Atlanta and Los Angeles BOTH have more overt racism than Boston. And not many people outside of Boston have ever really spent much time thinking about whether Boston is a racist city. Believe it or not, they don’t know much about Boston at all, except that there are lots of colleges there.

I’m so tired of the media perpetuating that perception.

Okay, now that the KG deal is dead, can we start the Gasol to Boston rumours? Especially with Chris Wallace as their new GM? He wants out, Pierce/Jefferson/Gasol would be maybe the best frontcourt in the East, let’s get it done. I like AK47, as well, but I’m a little scared by his injury situation

Though if we keep the pick, I vote(like we get a vote) for Corey Brewer. I’ve said all along that there will be a Dwayne Wade in this draft, a pick in the 4-9 range that turns out to be one of the biggest start. I think it might be him. And i am officially on the “don’t draft Yi” bandwagon. I don’t trust anyone that afraid of competitive workouts

If players are avoiding Boston, it’s because we’ve garnered a reputation for bad ownership, thanks to Gaston, bad management, thanks to Dave Gavitt, Pitino, Wallace and now Ainge, and bad coaching decisions thanks to ML and Rivers. In other words, the last 15 years have erased all that came before in the minds of today’s players.

“It would take Pierce to get AK. Nothing less.”

Did you miss the fact that that clown averaged less than 6 ppg last year? Further that he completely melted down in the playoffs and oh by the way makes more than Wally? I don’t get your facination with him. Even at his best he was no better than a 15/8 guy. I am intrigued by him because he is the kind of player that the Celtics need to take a chance on. A guy whose trade value has tanked but has shown the potential to be a decent player. At this point, after last year, I wouldn’t be surprised if Utah would give him away if the CBA allowed it. How can you possibly think that it would take Pierce to get a player who completely melted down last year? Sometimes I really wonder where you get this stuff Brick.

Cousin It,

My wife is from Boston and I currently live in Atlanta and I beg to differ with you about Boston. I have never seen a more segregated city. I have never once seen a black person on the North shore. It just doesn’t happen. I have never seen more than a one or two black people at any of the Red Sox games I have been to. Boston is completely segregated. Black people just don’t go to the nice areas of town. I could definitely see where a young black NBA player might want to live in LA or DC where he can go to a nice place and not be the only black person in the place.

i wonder how the russian and chinese players will hold up
were interested in ak47 and yi jianlin ak47 might be bald
and grey by 40 and on a fast downside now and yi might be
24 going on 30 with his skeletal development.
Lets use our 5th pick and get conley horford noah or wright
and lets gete a new coach now lets not wait till the first
game of the season and we have the win but doc doesnt cover the
inbounder.. lets be 1 -0 not 0-1 then 0-2 looking for our first
win and thinking were in for a long season. doc really stinks
and he cost us 9-12 wins a year, the last couple of years it
didnt matter but this year 9-12 games could mean 9th in the east
 to 3rd in the east for example.

AK is definately a gamble because of his salary. I dont believe he is the All Star offensive player that he had been (which is how is contract is set up) but I think he is still the defensive player that would work great with Al. And I think his offensive game (although not as great as it once was) compliments Al’s very well. AK has the athleticism to hit the offensive glass and the jumpshot to bring the other big man out of the paint and open things up for Al to post up. Again the issue with us getting AK is that we are taking on the huge contract for someone who has out grown it.

How can anybody base much of an opinion on who is on this roster based upon a season of tanking. Remember the substitutions Rivers made at the end of games? Purposely losing.

My Kool Aid bucket is self refilling, but we don’t know what we have right now. Allen, Wally, Perk, Pierce, Ratliff – all injured last year. We don’t know how these guys play, or can play together. I say we keep #5, get one of the bigs out there, and start the season. We have plenty of time before February to make a good assessment. Can Wally and Theo play at all? Tony Allen could be a really good defender. Perk could be a monster in the middle. Pierce might just learn how to play the team game. Wally could be Scott Wedman, or Vinnie Johnson. Allen could be a Kobe stopper. We don’t know. And how good is Rondo in clutch situations? Can Delonte stay healthy?

I say we stick and get a good pick, and see how the season rolls out. We’ve waited this long. I’ll wait another 8 months

Please stop the Pierce rumors. He is going nowhere. Not with that contract.
Besides, are we determined to be the worst team in the league? We lost 18 straight games without Pierce.
And we’re supposed to trade him for Kirilenko? That’s nonsense.

Also, here’s a fresh article regarding AK47.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6201984?source=rss

Not sure if AK47 will be happy being the 3rd scoring option on the C’s. Also, his defense is as good as his offense. It seems he sulks and pouts if he is not geting his points and it shows in his D. Plus, $63mm for him? That’s rough.

Not sure if AK47 will be happy being the 3rd scoring option on the C’s. Also, his defense is as good as his offense.
——————————————-

That alone would bench him in Doc’s defensive scheme. So he AK47 would sulk. Scal would get his minutes.

“Is the racist-city reputation still that strong?”

I lived in Boston from birth to age 16, then again from 19 to 29.

In the meantime and in the years since, I’v lived in Atlanta, New York and Los Angeles.

Let me tell you, Atlanta and Los Angeles BOTH have more overt racism than Boston. And not many people outside of Boston have ever really spent much time thinking about whether Boston is a racist city. Believe it or not, they don’t know much about Boston at all, except that there are lots of colleges there.

I’m so tired of the media perpetuating that perception.

I lived in Boston for 5 years. I grew up in Rochester NY and currently live in Brooklyn. Boston is hands down the most segregated city I have ever been to. When I go back to visit I am mortified by the lack of diversity. It’s crazy.
The “racist” label is debatable but I think anytime you have a place that is segregated as Boston is a certain amount of racism comes along with it, whether people are consciously aware or not

That fact that Kirlenko sulks and can’t seem to get along with Jerry Sloan gives me a lot of pause about him. Outside of Greg Popovich and Phil Jackson is there a more respected coach in the league than Jerry Sloan? Moreover, if Jerry Sloan can’t figure out how to get Kirilenko to show up and play every night, what reason is there to beleive that a lesser coach like Doc will be able to do so?

It’s funny that black players don’t avoid Boston in any sport other than basketball.

And where are those good white (including European) free agents? They don’t seem to want to come to the Celtics either.

Racism is just another excuse, like bad luck. I live in Boston, and its one of the most racially and ethnically diverse cities on the planet.

Jeff, we will always have to overpay to acquire an all-star caliber player in a trade even if the other team is not dealing from strength. The other team for PR reasons alone can’t look as if it has traded a player for anything but a clear-cut edge in the trade. The only exception is for a player with overwhelming problems that hurt his teamâ€â"¢s chemistry (in which case we are not a good team to take a player like that on). Our guys will be gaining value faster than other team’s players in the next year and even more so in 2 years. Patience is needed. We will make the playoffs next year and weâ€â"¢ll advance to at least the second round the following year, with the team as currently constructed.

Impatience in the form of an attempt for a quick fix to catapult us into championship contention for any significant amount of time is so unlikely to succeed. Looking for a good fit veteran true point guard will be the best approach to help with the advancement of the team and our young players.

Keeping the pick to add someone who can contribute now and add to our defensive talent pool is the best way to go with such a high quality draft. We will not likely be in position for this high a draft pick for the next hopefully several years. If anything we should be on the other side of the trade market as a seller to trade down if we see a player that we want that will be available a few positions down. But I think the Celts will be doing very well to get Jeff Green or Corey Brewer. Either will pay off quite quickly because of their defensive abilities. It will allow them to get minutes that will help them advance quickly. Both have terrific offensive potential. Al Horford wonâ€â"¢t be available, but if he were heâ€â"¢d be even better. I hope Danny stays patient. Itâ€â"¢s the best chance for long-term success.

I live in Boston, and its one of the most racially and ethnically diverse cities on the planet.

Uhhhh no it’s really not….I promise

“Racism is just another excuse, like bad luck. I live in Boston, and its one of the most racially and ethnically diverse cities on the planet.”

Walk around downtown or the North End sometime and count the number of well dressed successful black people you see. Then get on a plane and come to Atlanta or go the DC and walk around their downtowns and do the same. You might be surprised at what you find. Boston is a great city with a great quality of life, but there is no denying that it is madly segregated and has an almost nonexistent black middle class. As far as other sports go, when is the last time the Red Sox signed a big name African American free agent? Pedro is black but he is Dominican not African American. Perhaps it is changing now that the owners are billionaires and are willing to spend like drunken sailors but for a very long time black free agents would not come to the Red Sox, just like they won’t come to the Celitcs now. As far as the Patiots go, they are so good, it doesn’t matter. Further, football players are different. Football players were willing to go to Green Bay when they were good. NBA stars don’t seem to be the same way. Notice that Garnett or Kobe or any other big stars are clamoring to play in San Antonio, even though they are the Patiots of the NFL.

Oh Baloney. I’ve lived in Boston for over 25 years. In my neighborhood we have American Blacks, Hatians, Ethiopians, Dominicans, Cubans, Columbians, Brazilians, Cap Verdians, Jews, Irish, Russians and even a few WASPs. All the sore clerks and bank tellers are bilingual. We also have straights, gays, lesbians, bikers, yuppies— you name it, we’ve got it.

They don’t come to Boston because their first basketball coach when they were in second grade is a better game coach than Rivers. They could see that from whatever team they’re playing on currently when in the last minute of a close game Rivers puts forth the worst possible strategy virtually every time. They also don’t want to be jacked around rotation-wise as is Rivers’ MO.

Thanks you whales.

Its not the so much the racism thing, as much as it is a diversity thing. Boston is over 80% white (look it up) when most cities are around 60%.

To call Boston one of the most ethnically diverse is a pretty bold statement and incorrect.

Brick, which neighborhood in Boston do you live?

As for a Black middle class, it’s all over the place, mostly in the suburbs, in places like Milton, Newton, Brookline and Cambridge. The only neighborhoods where you won’t find a fair number of middle class Blacks are Southie and Mattapan (because the Blacks in Mattapan move to Milton as soon as they become middle class).

Where do you live Brick? It certainly isn’t Cambridge or Melrose or Brookline. Further NBA players won’t be living in your neighborhood. NBA players want to live in a city that has an African American elite, which Boston doesn’t have. That is really what it comes down to. If you live in Los Angeles or Miami or Orlando or Houston, or Atlanta, there are highly successful black people who are rich enough to run in the same circles as NBA players. Seriously, who is a young NBA star going to hang out with in Boston? I am not saying it is right or that if the Celtics get good again they won’t be able to attract players despite that, but it is still a fact of life.

As for a Black middle class, it’s all over the place, mostly in the suburbs, in places like Milton, Newton, Brookline and Cambridge

Where do you come up with this stuff? Middle class blacks in Brookline and Cambridge? If I had to put a percentage of middle class whites to blacks in those areas alone I would, no joke, go with 90% to 10% black. And that’s stretching it. But that’s besides the point anyway because we’re talking about “Boston” and Cambridge and Brooklyn aren’t “Boston”. Im talking about Boston as in your address reads “Boston, MA”. It’s all grumpy white dudes

My point is it got labeled a “racist” city for a reason and there is a stigma attached to it much like when people say San Francisco is a “gay city”.

Boston has an African American elite. Those folks live in Newton, Brookline, Milton (where the governor lives) Belmont, etc., along with the rest of the elite. Pierce, I believe, lives in Weston, which is the most elite Boston suburb. Robert Parish lived there too when he played for the Celtics, because I used to see him running along Route 20 every day at 7 am, when I was driving to work.

There are also some wealthy Blackds who have stayed in Roxburty, mostly in the Mission Hill area.

In Boston the Black elite tends to be professional and academic. It’s true you won’t find as much ostentatious wealth among Blacks as you would in NY, Chicago or LA. But if ostentation is what attracts Black NBA players, then they are the ones with the problem, not Boston.

You are right wales. Ian Thompson is saying on CNNSI that the word is that Garnett has told everyone that he is definitely opting out of his contract and is going to go to either Pheonix or LA even if that means taking an MLE to play there. He wants to win a title and he wants to play with Nash. It was nothing personal against Boston. At this point, I don’t think he would agree to go to Chicago. This had nothing to do with the desirabity of Boston. It is about Garnett.

“But if ostentation is what attracts Black NBA players, then they are the ones with the problem, not Boston.”

You are absolutely right. But like I said above, NBA players are different than other athletes. NFL players were willing to go to Green Bay when they were good and most of them would do anything to come to New England to play for Bellecheck. In contrast, you never hear an NBA star coming out saying he wants to play in San Antonio. This despite San Antonio having the best organization in the league and having won 4 titles in 9 years. NBA stars would rather go to Miami so they can hang on South Beach or LA so they can run with the Hollywood crowd. They would never willingly go to a city like San Antonio much less Clevland even if doing so would mean a chance to win a title. Yeah, there are exceptions like Garnett, but even he wants to go toe Pheonix or LA. Don’t hear him saying he will take an MLE to go to San Antonio even though doing so would virtually gaurentee him a ring.

Someone ought to ask Roosevelt Colvin, Dante Stallworth, Rodney Harrison and Adalius Thomas why they were willing to come as free agents to a “racist” city like Boston, and in the case of Thomas, take less money for the privilege of playing here.

NBA versus NFL Brick. If Green Bay had an NBA team, do you think any NBA player would want to play there even if they were good. Yet in the NFL, a lot of players have wanted to play there when the team was good. No one really says they want to play in San Antonio, despite the Spurs being so good.

Further, if it is all about having a good coach and a good organization, why don’t free agents ever want to go to Utah? DAnny would give his left testicle to have Jerry Sloan as a coach. If the Jazz were an NFL team, Sloan would the equivelent of Bill Cower or Tony Dungee and free agents would be begging to play there. In the NBA, no chance. NBA players are just different than NFL players.

It’s about wanting to win, John. Probably little else. Garnett has probably had his fill of tanking, substandard management, and goofball teammates. All situations poorly managed franchises seem to be stuck in. Garnett probably wants some stability and to be in a winning environment. He’s spent his whole career in Minneapolis, where he’s idolized in a much whiter city than Boston will ever be. I go to Twolves games. Garnett is the Twolves. There is no reason why he’d want out of that situation other than wanting to win.

It’s not about race…it’s not the cold…it’s not about the city. It’s about winning.

Look for Jefferson to be actively shopped all summer. Brick is correct about the Doc/Big Al rift, and with Danny and Doc needing a miracle playoff run to save their jobs, trading Al makes all the sense in the world. It is ENTIRELY realistic to foresee a Jermaine O’Neal trade where we give them Al and Wally’s bad contract for JON and (of course) a 2nd round pick. This will satisfy the economic component of the Big Al situation, and lock up all our money in two of the feeblest “all-stars” in the league, PP and JON.

An interesting subplot in all of this is, indeed, the Al Jefferson contract situation. With his name being thrown around in every trade rumor, it’s not likely he’s in any kind of “hometown discount” mood. He’ll want to be maxed out, while Wyc et. al. will want to give him something similar to Perk’s deal. The first mention of Big Al and his “unreasonable demands” should likely hit the papers by the end of the month, if he’s not traded by then.

If Garnett just wants stability, a good organization, and a chance to win, he would be taking the MLE in San Antonio or Utah. Further, the Lakers are just as disfunctional as the Celtics. Yeah, they have a better coach but their front office is even more messed up than Boston’s. Notice that Garnett isn’t talking about San Antonio or Utah, he is talking LA and Pheonix because he is buddies with Nash and he would want to live in LA.

“He’ll want to be maxed out, while Wyc et. al. will want to give him something similar to Perk’s deal.”

They are not going to offer him Perkins money. George you are as crazy as Brick and that is saying something. I have never seen a more parnoid and neurotic fanbase than the Celtics. Are all Boston fans this way?

JohnCK. Look at the standings. Look at our roster. Look at the Telfair trade. If you’re not paranoid and neurotic, you’re not paying attention.

George,

Incompetance is one thing. The record speaks for itself. On here we get more than that. Real grassy knoll stuff. It is just crazy some of the theories that people believe on here. If you honestly think that they are going to offer Al Jefferson a $15 million contract, you are crazy. It is one thing to say you think they are going to be too cheap to sign Jefferson. What do I know, maybe they are. It is the military like disinformation campaign of you expecting to see “Al’s unreasonable contract demands” and the bizare beleif that the Celtics think they can sign him for Perkins money that puts things over the edge into lunacy.

One other thing, the the Telfair trade got the Celtics out of a year of the worst contract in history and cost the Celtics the chance at a good young 2 guard a postion they are already over loaded at. I don’t think the Celtics were counting on Telfair, they just wanted to get out of Raef’s contract. No one knew Roy was going to be that good. If they had known that, he would have gone in the top three. The Telfair trade is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be. If the Celtics were still paying Raef, they would be in a much worse position than they are in now.

JohnCK, guilty. I probably overstated it. What I meant to say was that the Celtics were thinking of something closer to Perk’s deal than to the max. In any event, the fact remains (I believe) that the two sides are likely to not agree on a deal, and with Al’s shabby treatment of late, it probably makes his max-contract position intractable. Usually I hate the whole “show me some respect” thing, but in his case, it’s actually valid.

The Celtics WILL give Al up to the media, however, if/when they determine he cannot be re-signed. “Insiders” will start planting stories about Al’s lazy work habits, his weak ankles and excessive salary demands. This is the same kind of game they played with Ricky Davis, Marcus Banks, and Antoine Walker. This isn’t paranoia, it’s simply what a public relations team does when it has an indefensible product to support.

you can’t really compare the NBA to the NFL, where you have you have 50 teammates to hang out with.

on the other hand, phoenix ain’t exactly the blackest city.

We will see George. My guess is that they won’t trade Al this summer and his performance will speak for itself. Either he will come in and pick up where he left off last year and the public pressure to resign him will be too great, or he will regress and the Celtics will lowball him.

Oh no no no no. You cannot defend the Telfair trade. Absolutely not. How would the team be in a worse position with Raef’s contract than they are right now? How? These owners aren’t willing to spend anyway, so what difference did a year less of LaFrentz mean? Wally is just as untradeable, adds to our glut of wing players, and contributes to the worst perimeter defense in the league.

As for Brandon Roy, everyone knew he was going to be good. Everyone. He was widely regarded as the most NBA ready player in the draft, and had been rumored going anywhere from #1-#5 on draft night. Why did he slip to 6/7? (for sake of discussion, accept that the trades were already in place, thus Ty Thomas was, in fact, drafted by the Bulls, when technically he was drafted by Portland)

Barganini – Euro who wouldn’t mind living in Toronto
Aldridge – Best big man in the draft
Morrison – inexplicable idiocy on the part of Jordan, but he was torn between Morrison and Roy, made the wrong choice. Also, Morrison was better known and probably a draw for Charlotte fans
Ty Thomas – Bulls are truly loaded at the wings, Thomas was the top athelete in the draft
Sheldon Williams – Atlanta is dumb, but they needed a big rebounder
Brandon Roy/Foye – McHale for whatever reason coveted Foye.

And as for the Celtics, they passed up on a guy who is a healthier, stronger, better leader version of Delonte West. All to save Wyc some money. Yeah, sorry. That trade cannot be defended by anyone other than a bean counter

KG has it in his contract that he can opt out. Thats just smart control over your destiny. Kobe has a no trade clause. A star can have that kind of power. Thats a lot different than not reporting. But football is different. there all 1 year deals. Players with 4 years contracts get cut every season. Its crazy.

Anyway, ‘m glad Al is staying. I’m glad KG isn’t. I’d like to move Pierce but get more than AK47. Utah is really trashing him now. He shouldn’t cost Boston more than Wally and DWest/GGreen/Gomes, and we get their 24 pick

Boston may be predominantly white, but it’s not segregated. I grew up and lived around Columbus Ave., near Northeastern U. Granted, universaities tend to be diverse, but the whole area was completely “integrated” sinmply because there was a diverse population.

Atlanta, on the other hand? I lived in the northern part of the city. If you entered the Atlanta Underground from the northern entrance and came out on the sourthern entrance, you went from 100% white to 100% black. There may be a nice mix of races walking around downtown, but that’s only because they work there. At night, they go home to their seperate neighborhoods. I was shocked at how seperate the 2 cultures were down there.

And L.A.? Are you kidding me? I live here now, have for 10 years in 4 different neighborhoods … and have NEVER had a black neighbor. Ever heard of Compton? Inglewood? Watts? Those are the “black” areas in L.A.

I’m not saying these cities are less “integrated” than Boston. I’m saying that most American cities are DE FACTO segregated due mainly to socio-economic reasons … but purposeful segregation based in racism is not the core of it. L.A. and Atlanta may appear more integrated to tourists who see more black faces. All that shows is that those cities have higher black populations. But, like I said above, in most American cities, black people go home to black neighborhoods and whites go home to white neighborhoods.

That’s America, not Boston.

And Utah is a different story altogether. I’m white, but the last place I would want to be is a city built around a religous temple and a dried out lake bed that stinks in the sweltering heat of summer.

whales said:
  My point is it got labeled a “racist” city for a reason and there is a stigma attached to it much like when people say San Francisco is a “gay city”.
 
San Francisco being a “gay city” is another bogus claim. There is a higher percentage gay population in NYC, L.A. and Miami. San Francisco only got the rep because it was the site of several key events that rose gay awareness and because of Harvey Milk becoming so well known.

The same thing happened with Boston and bussing. The thing is, most of those meathead racists behind the bussing thing have moved their families out to the suburbs or out of state altogether 20 years ago.

Stop living in the past. Stop perpetuating a lie.

“Yeah, sorry. That trade cannot be defended by anyone other than a bean counter”

If there wasnt’ a salary cap I would agree with you. Further, Roy is a bean counters dream, effective player making rookie money. Because of the cap and the luxury tax, Reaf’s and now Theo’s contract severly limit the Celtics options. The only reason they can do anything is that Theo’s contract is going to expire next year. Also, Reaf was much less tradable than Wally. Wally will still go for 15 ppg next year, you watch. Raef didn’t play a minute last year and won’t get more than 10 this coming year if he even plays at all. His contract was generally considered one of the worst in the league.

Cousin it,

I live in Atlanta. There is a huge black middle class here. Ever hear of Morehouse? Clark Atlanata? Where I live in mid-town is very integrated. Yeah, the burbs are not but what burbs are. It is not that Atlanta is some kind of racial paradise, it isn’t. It is more that Boston really has a bad history with race and is probably not as far along as even a former Jim Crow city like Atlanta is today, but no one in Boston will admit there is or was ever a problem. If I were black, I would much rather live in Atlanta or DC or even Phily than Boston.

Also, I would rather live in Salt Lake than Green Bay, yet NFL free agents still go to Green BAy.

John CK, I totally agree that Atlanta is probably a more appealing place for black people (although, when I lived there with my first wife, who IS black, our white neighbors avoided us like we were diseased). But I think that’s more a function of Atlanta having a huge and thriving black population, as you pointed out. Again, I assert that Boston doesn’t have a large black population, and that is the main reason it is unappealing to blacks.

But I do not believe white people in Boston—a liberal mecca for progressive social issues—are actively focused on keeping blacks out of their city or their neighborhoods. In fact, the higher you go on the social scale in Boston, the more liberal the whites are. I bet you’d be hard-pressed to find many hard-core racists in neighborhoods like Bunker Hill or in Cambridge. You’re more likely to find rich white people who bend over backwards to show how un-racist they are.

BTW, just a side note: when I lived in Boston with that same wife, the people who gave us the fish eye the most were: 1) black men and 2) meatheads in the burbs. As you pointed out, the burbs are the burbs.

As far as a “bad history” of race, I think you’re off on that account a bit. The abolitionist movement was centered in Boston, Boston legislators were among the first on-board with federal civil rights legislation, the Celtics were the first team to draft a black player, name a black head coach and field an all-black starting lineup.

Maybe I do suffer from a trace of the denial you mention above, but if so, it’s because I, as a white guy, never heard or saw any of my family or friends in Boston do or say anything racist. Including when I married a black woman. You would think, with more than 50 cousins (prolific Catholics) and all the extended friends, I would have witnessed something that backed up the racism reputation. But I didn’t. So, I get a little offended when people trump up the racism thing.

Peace

Phoenix has a really low percentage of black people living in it. And it really is racist, a lot more then any other (American) city I have ever visited not named Dallas. But the Suns don’t have any problems signing free agents. The weather helps, but the fact that they’ve always been a well-run organization helps a lot more, as does the fact they’re championship contenders.

And saying no one takes less money to play in San Antonio – every player on San Antonio’s roster has taken less money to play in San Antonio. I’m confused by that one.

JohnCK said:

“but no one in Boston will admit there is or was ever a problem”

Are you kidding me? You’re not tuned in at all. That generation is dyeing every day. The radio frequently rips the late Tom Yawkey as being a racist, where as my fathers generation considered him a savior. The city has it’s problems but every city does.

Until they deal Theo, the Telfair trade can’t be judged.

I dont’ know what plan it is but for me it is in three (3) parts. mr three parts contentions if you will
First, we should try to swap picks our 5th and Wally with golden state for their 18th ; bedriens and J Richardson
Secondly, We should trade pierce to either Atlanta or Charlotte for their two first round picks atlanta has 3 and 11 and charlotte has 8 and 22
 we hsould then target Brewer JoKim Noah ;Yi Jianlian and sean williams or Tiago Splitter
Essentially we would get a big man in the swap (beidrens) with Goldens state and a scorer in J Richardson two starters. in brewer we also may end up with another starter and at 18th we get a big body that can contribute some this year. [/b][b][/b][b]

Hmm, I think the race thing is not an issue when it comes to KG. Compared to Minnesoh’ta, Boston looks like the middle of the Congo. He wants to play on a contender , it’s simple.

Marion doesn’t want to play here because he’s looking for a Joe Johnson type deal. Remember when Johnson left Phoenix and why he did it? It’s the same story with Marion. He’s looking for a major role as a big time star in a city that can afford to pay him.

No offense but they say don’t talk about religion or politics for a reason. People can be so short sighted and lose focus. I love talking Celtics and sports but I refuse to talk about things like race and sexuality with people who I don’t know. My favorite comments by the way are the ones that say, “I have a black friend, girlfriend, family member.” If you really embraced race the words black would never come before that sentence. People who really embrace diversity don’t live in a world of black, white, yellow, etc its about who you are and what you bring period. Now can we PLEEEEEASE talk about what the C’s are going to now that Big Ticket isn’t coming here?

My sources tell me that Ainge’s fallback position is a veteran all-star who is willing to defer to Pierce. To persuade the Heat to part with him Ainge will offer Al, the #5 pick, Gomes, and if they insist, Green. Relax, I don’t mean that has been Shaq, but none other than Mr. 38. PP, 38, Rondo, Powe and a rejuvenated Ratliff spells the Eastern Conference title next year, and a squad that will give whoever comes out of the West a run for their money.

Please forget about discussing race. Itâ€â"¢s pretty pointless here and I’d agree with those who say it’s not a very significant issue. If the team is attractive to players that is probably what matters to get players to want to come here.

I am not a Gerry Callahan fan by any means and rarely read his stuff. But he is right on with his column today about the need for Celtic management to be patient and the danger of trading away the team’s future for three years of an all-star’s downside In one more year we will have been a playoff team, we will have a really good idea of what we have and donâ€â"¢t have, and several of our young guys will probably be quite a bit more valuable. Add to that weâ€â"¢ll have more salary room and I see the Celtics moving in a very good direction. A big trade now will be more or less a crapshoot.

To Mr. George Meyer, your analysis of the draft last year is “spot on”. I tip my cap to you and agree 1000% with your post. Remember too that Toronto was publicly seeking to trade down, so the Danny and anybody else had the opportunity to realistically get whomever they wanted in the draft if they paid a fair price.

For the Danny, it would have probably cost us the #7 and Gomes, since Gomes was the poor man’s equivalent of Villanueva who was shipped off to the Bucks in the TJ Ford deal.