mistake#1-rehiring doc. mistake#2-letting doc convince danny to pick green when they need height and defense. the good thing about this draft is that the celts have been in the middle of everything. this is the true test of danny and decides his future. he shouoldd be able to come up with something valuable via trade or pick. paul is the warrior, wants to win now (can’ blame him ) but he is not in charge and i think is our most valuable trade chip.

The full article mentions once again that McHale really wants Jefferson out of any KG deal. If that doesn’t tell us the value of Big Al and exactly why we shouldn’t seriously entertain offers for him, I don’t know what does.

If they are going to use the pick, then Pierce has to be moved on draft night. I believe he will pull a Kobe if the pick is not traded. He may not do so right away, but he certainly will if the team gets off to a slow start.

I see that the Celtics are indeed working out Blake Schlib, so it looks like my earlier assertion that every schlub (Rivers) needs a Schlib may prove to be accurate. Rivers needs someone to give all the preseason minutes to, so that his regular players won’t be ready for the start of the season.

I wouldnt do KG for AJ straight up

WE MUST NOT TRADE AJ

either trade the pick and ratliff for a good vet or trade pierce for youth and picks

dont be a sucker danny!

I still feel that there will be a trade going down and that it won’t be anything we’ve heard before. I don’t think RR, AJ, or PP are on the market, but everyone else is and DA is making it clear to the league that we have the assets (#5 & theo’s contract) and were willing to deal them.

Forgot to mention, if anyone blinks its going to be either Minn, or the Suns. Ones itching to move him and other is itching to get him. We hold the cards and are finally messing with teams. Hopefully, that will carry over to the court next season.

Well the latest scuttlebut on RealGM is that McHale (who is truly desperate) is trying to work a 3-way with Atlanta in which Garnett would go to Phoenix, Amare to Atlanta and picks #3 and #11 plus prospects and expiring contracts would go to the Wolves.

Frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if the C’s have a tentative deal in place to acquire Joe Johnson. The deal would be Ratliff, West and #5 for Johnson and #11.

Ainge has to be working on moving down. How else do you explain Shira Springer’s puff piece in the Globe on Al Thornton, complete with insights from Leo Papile? Papile knows something.

agreed with cos, we can always stand pat for now and not rush things, it is the Wolves who are under tremendous pressure, there is Talk onw on ESPN about Atlanta sending picks 3 and 11 for amare and Kg ending up in PHX, that goes to show how desperate Mchale is as he can not have Jefferson, but draft picks 3 and 11 is best offer out there as far as im concern, Amare reunites with JJ and they compete in the pathetic East…also if im atlanta, id grab Amare anytme even at the cost of no. 3 and 11…for the Suns it is a no brainer, they get KG but they’re window with Nash is now and they can definitely compete against the Spurs.

Brick, no offense but where are you getting a “tentative deal in place to acquire JJ”??

I just want to pick at 5
Ainge just doesnt know how to trade with leverage
i dont want any more dickau , lafrentz or telfair
types . get rid of theo and candiman and draft a big
to replace them a rokkie big at 5 will log more
quality minutes than theo and kandi combined

Chad Ford said it today on Mike and Mike in the morning (ESPN): Danny can either make the trade for Marion to save his job, but it won’t get the Cs close to the finals in the East, or he can rebuild which is probably the right thing and will probably cost him his job.

I agree, rebuild the team, good-bye Danny, please take Doc with you.

I disagree to the extent that McHale is desperate in moving KG. McHale has both the Suns and LA interested and bidding for KG. Whether KG liked it or not, it appeared McHale at least had a package from the Cs at one time.

In the end, it wouldn’t surprise me if McHale ends up with Amare from the Suns plus other goodies, or gets a good package that involves Atlanta’s picks.

We should be so fortunate to be in McHale’s shoes, we won’t get anything reasonably close to that with Pierce now a days.

It’s not all black and white. It’s not “either you sell the farm or rebuild completely”. I think you can make a move with Ratliff’s contract, Green and/or the pick, improve your team and keep your best assets. This team doesn’t need to be a title contender next year. They only need to enter the playoffs, make some noise, keep Pierce happy and wait for the next opportunity to get a star for cheap. I mean, it’s not necessary to build a title contender by June 28th. You can just improve and put yourself in a position to make future moves.

I don’t want the Cs coming out of this draft without taking the #5. The only exception is if we somehow made a trade and still ended up with a top #10, plus a top #20 if that is even possible.

Chad Ford was asked other than the top 2 picks who will be the 3rd best player when we look back in ten years and he says: Connely.

At this point I think if either Connely or Horford are there at the #5, you take them, if not maybe a new day and take the best defender who can defend 3 positions with Brewer.

Yi, too risky at the #5, B. Wright stock is dropping like the Titanic. I’d take either one with the #10, also consider Acie Law. I don’t know too much about Green except that he has good but not great potential, and I’ll pass on Noah and undersized Thorton. Hawes gets some consideration but I don’t pick him either.

cos said:

“Brick, no offense but where are you getting a "tentative deal in place to acquire JJ”??"

Pure inference 1. Pierce wants a star. 2. The Celtics are in love with Al Thornton (who will be a bust IMHO).

So where is Thornton’s likely draft position? Probably from 10-13. So who has picks 10-13? Sacramento, Atlanta, 76ers, Hornets. I think the most likely trading partner is Atlanta. The other teams have no one who might entice Pierce to stay. (Players like Iguodala, Chandler and Chris Paul aren’t being traded, obviously.)

I think youre way off the mark on this one Brick..

    Pierce is not a Bird! Let him go if he’s gonna whine. (Bird would take the last shot for a game winner and if it didn’t go in, peeps were shocked. Pierce takes the last shot for a game winner and peeps are shocked if it does go in – and a lot of the time he doesnt even get it off).

V on saying that it doesn’t have to be either/or in regard to rebuild or vet help.

The problem with this franchise is that there is a fork in the road and we haven’t done anything but crashed into the median. I can be wrong here, but I saw this several years ago when the youth were intimidated by Pierce and always seem to defer to him, especially in crunch time. Pierce knows it too and that’s why he was wanting Iverson last year and a trade this year if the big vet doesn’t come.

Pierce isn’t Shaq, Duncan, Lebron or D. Wade. He can’t carry this team like those guys. For me it has been obvious. No GM is going to overpay for the potential of a Gerald Green or a good back up role player like a Gomes or West. Once you hit pay dirt with a Big Al, you certainly don’t want to trade it for an older vet.

There’s really only one direction to go and that is acquire young talent and build similar to what the Bulls have done. Developing youth and keeping Pierce while expecting to be serious contenders is a failure and those that saw this several years ago and were clamoring to trade Pierce are more and more looking like the wise bloggers Danny and management should have listened to.

Celtics Thug must be Sebastian Telfair..

It all makes sense..

The pick is the key. The 5th pick in a draft that will produce at least 5 future all-stars. You can’t just trade it away to rent a pal for Paul Pierce. He has to reconcile himself to playing a major role in growing his teammates into stars.

Good one, Havlicek!

I’ve said it many times. If the Celtics make this pick and don’t make any trades, it will be a disaster and frankly, a joke. This team has far to many ‘youngs’ as it is and unless some of these all-mighty ‘chips’ are FINALLY moved then its just going to be even worse of a logjam this year. Trade the pick for a vet or keep the pick and trade Pierce….needs to be one or the other.

This IMHO is the best that can come out of tomorrow’s draft:

- move Pierce for best deal available. Some may not realize it, but our youth will develop better without Pierce.

- move down from the #5 and package it with the #32 to hopefully get 3 picks in the #8 to #12 range give or take a few spots.

From that group I come away with: Brewer, Law and Hawes.

This is a deep draft, and we come away with a big that we need, the best defender in the draft, and an exciting guard with a good NBA career.

That’s how you rebuild a franchise. Maybe it takes a few years to develop and then you have Pierce’s salary to add vet help down the road like the Bulls did with Ben Wallace.

If Danny truly cares about the long term ramifications for the Cs, that’s the type of move he needs to make, not getting a band-aid like Marion.

if there is a tentative deal, its with phoenix.

Having seen nearly all of the Gators games over the past 2 years, one thing is clear. Joakim Noah was the best defensive player on that team, not Corey Brewer. Now I’ll take Brewer for a lot of reasons, but he is not the lock down defender many inferred from the Final Four. Brewer is a disruptor, like Rajon Rondo, not a one-on-one defender.

Jeff said:

“Brick is basically quoting an old Celtics Thug rumor – what you do with that information is up to you”

Nah. I’ve read a couple of his inarticulate posts on RealGM and IMHO he’s a fraud. He’s just playing with the rubes over there.

I didn’t realize that he mentioned Atlanta. But it makes sense if you assume that the Celtics are looking to trade down into the 10-15 range to take Thornton. That narrows it to 5 teams— right?

Jeff, if you don’t theink they are trading down, what’s all the puffery about Thornton? Was Shira just trying to fill empty column inches?

Draft-Develop-Hold. That is the only way out of this jam. Rent-A-Veteran is a bad strategy: Joe Johnson for Rogers/Delk was a good trade for 3 months and a bad one for years after. Tyson Chandler out/Ben Wallace in was a mistake for the Bulls. Portland gives away young Jermaine O’Neal (I’m worried that we’ll do this with G.Greene)and on and on.
  Pierce is a “baller”. He loves to play. He got max money from this ownership. Of course they want to win too. No one wants to be a middling team (not terrible enough to get better via draft nor good enough to win it all). Our assets are assets because they are perceived to have a future. Make that future here. I love Shawn Marion’s “A” game. But I doubt we’d see it often here. Forget it.
Grow our young up together. Put the

Let me add in response to a couple of the posts above that I’m conviced the reason Pierce is still here is Grousbeck, not Ainge.

Ainge deserves to be fied for hiring Rivers and pushing the Rivers “extension.” He does not deserve to be fired for his personnel moves, with the possible exception of the first Walker trade, which was a disaster. And he certainly does not deserve to be fired over Pierce.

Pierce just isn’t that good. He’s a great scorer, but at this stage he’s no great loss. Unless everyone out at Healthpoint is incredibly stupid, they know they are rebuilding, even if they won’t admit it publicly. They have one good piece— Jefferson— and the rest, including Pierce, should be trade bait to get a second major piece.
And if they get lucky, maybe they can draft a 3rd piece tomorrow night.

This is good news in at least it should kill some of the grassy knoll conspiracy speculation that the team has paniced and is going to make another Vin Baker deal. I trust Bullpett a lot more than I trust Simmons, so I believe this. Danny for all of his faults has done one thing, he is over the next two years going to get the Celtics out of salary cap hell. Between Ratliffe and Wally the Celtics have $25 million a year in bad contracts coming off the books. The worst thing they could do now is panic and take a bunch of bad contracts just to get some has been like O’Neil or some never was like Kirlenko.

As far as trading Pierce goes, why trade Pierce when all you are going to get in return is bad contracts and unproven players? Pierce has no leverage in this. He is under contract for $75 million. The luxury tax has totally changed the NBA, but I am not sure the players realize it. The days of a B lister like Pierce or Vince Carter making max money whinning and forcing his way out of a city are over. Owners just do not have the money to pay the luxary taxes that come with taking on a contract like Pierces. They will only do it if the player is someone like Iverson or Garnett who will sell mechandise and tickets. Pierce is not one of those players. He can whine all he wants but he is not going anywhere. His best option at this point is to have a big season like he did two years ago and then maybe try to force a trade next summer when he is only owed $60 million and is coming off a big season rather than an injury season. Even then, it is doubtful he can get out of Boston. I don’t see Pierce leaving Boston until at least 2009 when he is only owed $40 million or certainly in 2010 when he is in the last year of his contract and will have both trade value as an expiring contract and leverage over the Celtics. You guys can dream all you want about Pierce for picks and AK47 or the Ice Capades for that matter. It isn’t going to happen. Pierce is going to have to shut up and go to work even though he won’t be happy. Welcome to the real world Paul.

whoops..hit the wrong button I guess. Put the dice on the table again in a good draft. I like Noah. I think Horford is another Al. Noah is a complementary player. All in all I trust Danny with the pick. I don’t trust him on the trading floor.

JohnCK said:
  
“As far as trading Pierce goes, why trade Pierce when all you are going to get in return is bad contracts and unproven players?”

1. More cap relief
2. YOUNGER players
3. Draft picks

Why is McHale trying to get exactly that for Garnett? It’s the way you rebuild. Obviously Pierce is worth just a small fraction of KG’s worth, but the concept is the same.

Pierce, in many ways, just stabbed the Celtics in the back. By making his trade demand public, he’s even further weakened the bargaining position of the Celtics. And if he didn’t make the demand, why isn’t he calling a press conference to disclaim it? Trade Pierce. This reminds me so much of his meltdown in the playoffs against Indiana. The entire Celtic’s team will be better off for it. Jefferson developed last year because Pierce wasn’t there as a crutch. Pierce is a crutch for all the youngsters. With him there, they don’t have to look to themselves. So trade him, let’s rebuild the team the right way and not cater to his ego.

  The Atlanta rumor doesn’t make much sense. Why involve them? If Phoenix is going to move Amare they could just do it straight up for KG. Minny would rather have Amare than picks.

The problem Brick is that Pierce is no Kevin Garnett. McHale is holding out for real value for Garnett because Garnett is an elite player that realisticlly put Pheonix over the top or make the Lakers relevant again. More importantly, Garnett be it in LA or Pheonix or anywhere will sell a ton of merchandise and give people a reason to buy tickets. A guy like Garnett is a money maker for a team. Pierce just isn’t in that league. No one in LA is going to pay Laker season ticket prices because Pierce is on the team and he is not good enough to make a very good team like Pheonix into a champion. Yeah, he would be a nice complimentary piece to a good team, but unless he puts you over the top, no way does he produce enough revenue to justify his salary, especially with the luxury tax. You are not going to get the same kind of value for Pierce that you will for Garnett. The only way an owner agrees to take on Pierce’s salary is if he gets rid of a bunch of dudes making big money in return. So, I am not sure that trading Pierce gets you any salary cap relief. You have to take back as much money in the short term as you give. Why would an owner give up expiring contracts and short term contracts to take Pierce’s long term money much less throw in good young players with it? I don’t even think that Celtics could get as good of a deal for Pierce as the 76ers got for Iverson. The fact is the Celtics overpaid for Pierce when they gave him his extension and now they are stuck with each other.

So, JohnCK, if you admit that Pierce isn’t good enough to put a team “over the top” or make a team “relevant,” they why not trade him?

It’s the same old conundrum: he makes them just good enough to miss out on the very best draft picks.

By trading Pierce for Kirileno you save a little money plus AK’s deal is a year shorter. Plus he’s 3 years younger.

I can’t believe that a team like Detroit would not have great interest in Pierce, and they have #15 and plenty of other assets.

I like Pierce and #5 for Rasheed Wallace and #15 better than any of the deals that have been rumored to date.

John CK, insightful! I realize the glass is definitely half full with any Pierce trade. I however still do the deal if we can get expiring junk contracts back and potentially a high draft pick. I think there is a chance to get junk, decent young starter and a high draft pick for Pierce right now.

This team IMHO will develop quicker without Pierce. I honestly don’t think Big Al has the last half of the year he had if Pierce is still in the line up all that time. Without Pierce it is sink or swim for guys like Gerald, etc.

Also, what good does the salary cap do you if no one wants to play in Boston? I frankly can’t believe that anyone wouldn’t want to live in Boston if you had a 8 figure salary. It is a great city with a huge media market. But apparently this generation of NBA players cares nothing about tradition and is more concerned about the weather and the quality of the strip clubs when it comes to where they want to play. I think the Celtics should just go all European and Asian. The European players would love Boston. Further, lets be honest, at least judging from international play and from the fact that the last three MVPs have been foreigners and that the best team is loaded with foreigners, foreigners are just better players.

JohnCK said:
“Also, what good does the salary cap do you if no one wants to play in Boston?” First, that assumption is baloney.

Secondly, it gives you the room to resign your good young players.
Third, it saves the owners some money.
   

Jeff, this was a well-written piece. But at the one point, you got it backwards. It’s not “a horrible situation for the Celtics to be in.” In fact, we’re in a good spot. We have developing talent that others want, and things are falling into place so we can justify trading off Pierce (because of his dissatisfaction).

Good. Let’s get what we can for Pierce, as soon as we can.

Responding to the post that Brewer is not a lock down defender, I tend to disagree. In the NBA there is probably more one one one defending than the zones often deployed in college. Secondly, Brewer has all the tools and will become if he already isn’t a lock down defender.

Brewer is a freakish 6’8" or so. He can defend the point, SG, SF. Despite the height, he’s got long arms to boot, good footwork, quickness, instincts, work ethic, and probably most importantly prides himself on defense.

As an added bonus, he’s a good rebounder for the guard position.

Move Pierce, Wally, and give him floor time. I think Conely and Hoford are off the board by the time we pick and some boards have Brewer around the 9th pick or so. He’s a great get if we moved out of the #5 and stay in the top #10. Even if we don’t or can’t trade down, if and when Conely and Hoford are gone, I use the #5 on him and rid myself of Pierce.

I would do Pierce for Wallace in a minute. Rasheed at least is a really good player. The Celtics already had one 24 win season. If you trade Pierce for Kirlenko, they would lucky to win 20 games next year and then would get the pleasure of getting screwed in the lottery or worse yet winning it and having the top player be some punk like OJ Mayo. I would rather draft the best player available at five and take our chances next year. I don’t buy that Pierce keeps the young guys from developing. Jefferson has developed just fine. So have Allen and West. If the team only wins 35 or 40 games next year, fine. The Celtics will have a better idea of which youn players to keep. Take Gin Baker’s and Theo’s money and resign the young players or get a MLE vet or some combination thereof and improve even more in 2009. Just don’t panic and make dumb deals. If the Celtics resign their young players and draft smart, they can have a team that is young, competetive and peaking just in time for Pierce to be in his out year and tradable for real value.

Look, I would love to see Paul in a C’s uniform this season. He’s a great Celtic, the team’s leader, and some level of stability helps the team. I don’t want to see him here if it means we got fleeced in order to satisfy his wishes. If he’s going to demand a trade because DA won’t sell out the future for another conference finals run, (and we know it), we should trade him now. We’ll get younger, better defensively, and more draft picks. Building through the draft is the best way to go.

Brick,

Why is the assumption that no one wants to play here balony when Marion and Garnett both killed deals that would have sent them to Boston? The Celtics haven’t signed an impact free agent since Xavier McDaniel. I can’t for the life of me figure out why Marion doesn’t want to come to Boston and play with Pierce and Jefferson but he doesn’t and don’t tell me its Doc. Marion apparently doesn’t get along with his current coach that well. How many times have we heard player say they want to go to New York or to some sunbelt craphole like Orlando because the weather is good? A million times. You never hear someone say they want to play in Boston.

I saw Thornton play at BC last year and believe me he is nothing special.

As far as Green, I think we should come up with a better reason to draft him than he played with Doc’s son at GTown. The scouting report on him is ‘jack of all trades, master of none.’ He is Ryan Gomes, which is not bad, but I don’t think you need two of him.

The Celtics have to take a big man at 5. They are overloaded on the wings. Unless you can swing a deal for Wally or Green, I don’t see the point of taking Green or Brewer, it would just give Doc more options for screwy rotations. I still think that Atlanta and Memphis go ro Wright and Conley leaving the Celtics Hoford or Yi. One or both of those two guys will be there. The Celtics should take Horford or Yi in that order of preference and add another piece down low.

Random thoughts

1. Rasheed Wallace is a tired act? What about Pierce? Am I the only one who remembers the press conference with the phony bandage after Pierce got himself tossed for game 6 against Indiana? Then they go out and win game six without Pierce and lose by 28 at home after they get him back. I’d just as soon deal with Sheed’s antics. And Sheed is one of the best post defenders in the game, quite apart from the offense he brings.

2. Noah— no shot, no offense. You don’t waste a #5 pick on Anderson Varejao.

3. Thornton will be a bust. In 36 college games last year he had a grand total of 24 assists. Either he can’t pass or he won’t pass, and I’m not sure which is worse. I wouldn’t want to play with a guy like that.

4. The reason that Garnett and Marion don’t want to come here is that the perceive the Celtics as a bad team with a bad coach and a bad overpaid overrated franchise player— and they’re right. You could fix the 2nd and 3rd issues easily. the first one (bad team) will take a little longer.

Hey, I LOVE Jefferson and I LIKE D. West, Gomes, Allen, Green, Perskins and Rondo. (Just because I like Conley better doesn’t mean that I dislike Rondo or West, who is a gamer.) I think they could win 35 games without Pierce. One of the problems is that the whole offense is built around Pierce, and the defense is built around covering his ass (and Jefferson’s). Build the offense and defense differently and you wouldn’t miss Pierce so much. Dare I say “up tempo?”

To me with Noah you have great hustle, but you have that with Scal and hustle gets you just so far. Noah has an awful outside shot, so as defenses do with Perk, expect Big Al to be doubled/tripled teamed when we dump it down low. I like Noah’s enthusiasm and not a bad pick if you were picking at #12, but to me he’s not a #5 pick. NBA is more a bruising game than college and I think that’s another thing that may not bode well for Noah on the pro level.

Thorton is undersized and a waste of a #5 pick IMHO. Yi is one huge crapshoot. The fact that he will only work out for certain clubs, is allegedily only “19”, etc makes me very leery of him. I can see Danny gambling on him and it will be a wait and see. Either Danny will look like a draft genius again or it will go on and become another in the recent Danny disappointing decisions.

If Hoford is there, I would take him with the #5, but I do think he’s off the board by the time he reaches us.

I understand Brewer being another wing, but I definitely move Pierce and to me Brewer/Green get lots of minutes, Wally gets limited to less than 20 per game persumably he doesn’t spend half the year on the DL.

Remember too Brewer can play/defend 3 positions, much like what Aldridge is capable of playing (3 spots)for Portland, so it is not like it is SG or nothing for him. I like the defense and I like the versatility Brewer can bring. The fact he can pressure the ball and the other team’s star players will only help make this a better overall defensive team. As S.A. Spurs proved again, fundamentals and solid defensive in the end is the best ticket to contend and win championships.

I agree with you about Wallace. He is a very good player and nearly impossible to match up with. I don’t know what his contract looks like but I doubt if he is scheduled to make $20 million a year starting in 2008. Nice thought but no way would anyone in the NBA much less Ainge and Dumars think outside the box enough to make a deal like that. It is one of the many reasons the NBA is not what it used to be. The salaries are too big, the salary cap is too restrictive and the owners are too conservative and cheap. All of that combines to produce lousy teams and unwatchable basketball.

With all respects, JohnCK, how are NBA owners too “cheap” if the players’ salaries are “too big”? Sure, there’s a lot wrong with the NBA; the games are too many and too long. But what’s with the class warfare attacks (too conservative) on the owners?

“Hey, I LOVE Jefferson and I LIKE D. West, Gomes, Allen, Green, Perskins and Rondo. (Just because I like Conley better doesn’t mean that I dislike Rondo or West, who is a gamer.) I think they could win 35 games without Pierce. One of the problems is that the whole offense is built around Pierce, and the defense is built around covering his ass (and Jefferson’s). Build the offense and defense differently and you wouldn’t miss Pierce so much. Dare I say "up tempo?”"

I think you’re overvaluing exactly how good each of those guys are. Without Pierce this team might win 15 games, and scarily with what replaces him they might end up winning 20.

Why they won’t want to come to Boston:

1) More competitive/better teams: Suns, Mavs, Bulls, etc
2) Location, location, location: big market, warm weather elsewhere
3) Cs were the worst team in the East others don’t buy injury excuse, non-contenders
4) Doc and Danny- not held in high regard by many vets
5) Pierce- I believe has a reputation of a selfish player especially after youth comments last summer and trade threat now.
6) Spoiled, me first attitude of many star vets.

“But what’s with the class warfare attacks (too conservative) on the owners?”

I have no problem with people making money, but I guess look at sports differently. The only owner in the leauge willing to sacrifice maximum profit for winning is Cuban. The rest of them try to win but only because winning teams make money. If the choice is between winning a championship and making a little money and breaking even or being good and making a lot of money, they will always take the cash. Look at Pheonix. Pheonix has the most talented team in the league but are still looking to unload Marion and didn’t make a deadline deal all because they don’t want to pay the luxury tax. They would rather get rich and loose to the Spurs every year than make less and win a championship. That is the NBA today. It is as if every owner in the league models themselves after Donald Sterling. You know people make fun of Sterling, but the Clippers have never lost money and he bought them in 1982 for like $12 million. They are now estimated to be worth over $300 million. Sterling really is the ideal 21st Century owner and what all of them aspire to be. They don’t want to be George Steinbrener with his huge salaries and six championships. They want to be Sterling with is millions in profits and three thousand percent return on his investment.

JohnCK, you’re quite right about Donald Sterling, he’s in it for the money. But the odd thing is, this is America, people are supposed to be in it for the money. Ask Paul Pierce.

The problem is, the NBA is set up, in a league-wide sense, as a thriving capitalistic structure, but the teams themselves, relative to each other, operate in a socialistic system. And as with all socialistic experiments, people (like Sterling) quickly figure out capitalistic ways to game the system.

Somehow, I suspect you wish to live in a patronized state where the uber-rich provide you with your sports entertainment out of the goodness of their hearts (and the bottoms of their wallets).

But for me, the solution is not to whine about guys like Sterling and his ilk, who are only acting as rationale people. Instead, the league itself should own all the teams (as stocks), pay all the salaries and collect all the profits (the way minor league Arena football teams seem to do). And then enterprising individuals can bid to purchase rights to be general managers of these teams, and to collect profits based on the on-the-court performances of their squads.

“But for me, the solution is not to whine about guys like Sterling and his ilk, who are only acting as rationale people. Instead, the league itself should own all the teams (as stocks), pay all the salaries and collect all the profits (the way minor league Arena football teams seem to do). And then enterprising individuals can bid to purchase rights to be general managers of these teams, and to collect profits based on the on-the-court performances of their squads.”

I like that idea. I am as big of a capitalist as anyone, but there is more to life than money. If you just want to make money you don’t buy a sports team. Buying a team like the Celtics or the Yankees is like buying a Van Gogh or a vintage sports car. It is a vanity purchase. If you want to make billions, go play the stock market or buy a casino. You buy a sports team to get your face on the cover of newspapers and to indulge yourself. Yeah, you don’t owe anyone operating it as a loss, but I think that you are really missing out if you buy it for the sole purpose of making money. That is just me, but I think people like Sterling and his ilk are really missing out. Some people, however, really are soulless drones and it is hard to keep them out of the business. Further, in the long run guys like Sterling hurt the league by hurting the product and free riding off of teams that do put out a good product. Yeah, Sterling is making his millions but the NBA has the worst ratings in history and is becoming increasingly irrelevant. I must admit, I like your sollution for keeping bums like Sterling out.

Im nott going to read any previous post before writing so I dont care if Im repreating what someone else may have said already.
This concerns PP. If I was the celtic owner, I would not allow PP, who I pay 20 mil/yr. to play basketball threaten demand that I make a trade for a topnotch veteran as a condition of being a “happy” player. If he wants out, unless I comply with his demands, I would certainly accomodate his wish. Nobody’s personal interests will not be above the teams welfare, as I view it. I would not be a hostage to 1 single individual; at least, not in America.

Yes Pierce is a great scorer— a great 30 year-old scorer. You are going to be in the lottery next year without him, or be mediocre for 5 years, and then be in the lottery without him. Why wait 5 years to be in the same crappy position?

Unless the young players on this team learn how to win on their own, there is no hope. There is only the false hope that a few years of a player like Marion might bring. And he’s almost as old as Pierce with even more mileage on the tires, because D’Antoni has a short bench.

Brick said:
4. The reason that Garnett and Marion don’t want to come here is that the perceive the Celtics as a bad team with a bad coach and a bad overpaid overrated franchise player— and they’re right. You could fix the 2nd and 3rd issues easily. the first one (bad team) will take a little longer.

Hey, I LOVE Jefferson and I LIKE D. West, Gomes, Allen, Green, Perskins and Rondo. (Just because I like Conley better doesn’t mean that I dislike Rondo or West, who is a gamer.) I think they could win 35 games without Pierce. One of the problems is that the whole offense is built around Pierce, and the defense is built around covering his ass (and Jefferson’s). Build the offense and defense differently and you wouldn’t miss Pierce so much. Dare I say “up tempo?”
———————————————————

Great post, Brick. Particularly the defense part. Pierce wasn’t a lazy defender until Rivers and Payton came on board. Pierce followed Payton’s lead and Rivers allowed it. The ridiculous blitzing defense is custom designed to cover for lazy defenders.

We won 33 games with Pierce for a full season the year before last. If he wants out unless he gets his way……maybe he should stop cashing those paychecks.

Excellent post, Rey.

As a follow up to JohnCK, I’m all for soulful people dishing out their money to charities. Hopefully, we’re all doing what we can.

But I don’t think sports should be run like social charities. We’d probably all enjoy the Celtics (and other sports teams) more if we knew guys like the Celtics’ owners were directly winning or losing with their own money (short-term and long-term) based on the on-court performances of their team. And not because they’ve gamed the situation, ala Sterling.

And the reason I took so long to respond is that I got bounced out by the server and couldn’t get back in.

Memo to Jeff, on a similar theme, it’s time to start charging everybody some nominal fee ($10 to $20 annually?) to cut down on some of these server problems.

Gracias, Shaks. ;)

I think both Brick and Dobbs are both right in their own way. Pierce is a great player and a scorer. But he is also 30 years old and owed $75 million. The fact is that no one is taking that contract and giving anything but junk back. Brick, you prove your point too well, Pierce is on the downside of his career. If it is such a great idea to trade him away, why wouldn’t it be an equally bad idea for another team to give value for him? A team only has so many salary slots. Pierce, for all of his faults produces with his slot. The money has to go to someone and the Celtics are better off giving it to Pierce than trading Pierce away and giving it to over paid stiffs in the last year of their contracts or not spending it through unused cap space. Look at that way, the Celtics should tell Pierce to shut up and explain to him how he has no leverage in this situation and go with what they have. Sure, he will whine but he will show up to work and I can think of 75 million reasons why he will.

We should be exploring trades for Pierce right now. If we’re going to
rebuild (and we should), we should be after more picks and prospects, along with shorter money.

I fear we have used so much energy trying to add veteran players to this team, that the best Pierce deals are slipping by us once again. If/When Paul gets frustrated here, and asks for a trade, we’ll be getting even less for him.

We should have moved him a couple of years ago when it was clear that Raef wasn’t going to work out, and we had no hopes of improving our talent base quickly enough through the draft to facilitate trades.

Now, one of our talents (Al Jefferson) has developed significantly enough that he should not be traded… leaving a huge age gap between our first and second players. It’s also my opinion that Jefferson will be our most valuable player starting this year.

To me, logic suggests that we build around the younger, bigger, and more valuable player. But that’s just me.

I would be delighted to pay $20 per year towards a professional grade dedicated server for this site.

C’mon Jeff. It’s time to let the free enterprise system do it’s thing. Starting charging that $20!

And here’s another suggestion, set your server up so your database will give every new person a couple of free months of server hits. And then, once they’re hooked on coming here, make them pay the $20 to continue to log on.

Brick, I luv ya bud, but you seem to be losing it more and more as we get closer to the draft. ;D

Conley = over hyped. Some team will take him early, but he is Rondo. Great athletically, nice PG, but can’t shoot a lick. The difference with Conley is that he had the luxury of playing with the best big man in the country, Oden, and was on a much better team than Rondo’s Kentucky. He’ll be a real good pro, but I wouldn’t take him inside the top 5 with the talent that’s available in this draft.

Brewer is overrated. Perimeter defenders are ALWAYS better when they have a shot blocking big waiting for them in the middle. Take Bruce Bowen for example, he’s a good defender, but he benefits from having Duncan there waiting to block shots. T Prince on Detroit is another. Did anyone notice how exposed he was in this years playoffs without Ben Wallace there behind him? Plus, Brewer measured shorter, and his wing span came down to earth when he was measured with an actual measuring tape, and not a pencil.

The C’s are gioing to get screwed again. Yi & Horford will both be gone when #5 comes around, leaving them with a reach at #5, since no one is going to want to trade up with them. They will take Green or Noah at #5 if Yi is not there.

How about trading #5 to Philly for Andre Miller and #12? Moving back to #12 might be a bit too far for my liking, but…

NoKidding,

The way you stop owners like Sterling is you have total free market like baseball used to before the stupid revenue sharing. That way the only way a team can make money is to spend it smart and have a good product. In leagues like the NBA and now basbeball, you can put out a cheap but terrible product and still make millions through revenue sharing. If teams can’t make it in small markets, too bad. Not every city can afford a five star hotel, why does every city have to have a pro sports team.

Brick I like that trade to Atlanta, I would do that in a heart beat.

Conley is way better than Rondo. For starters, Conley plays under absolute control. He does not turn the ball over. Rondo, in contrast, throws far too many passes into the 5th row.

Conley is also a better shooter. His jumper is only average, but he does alot of damage with that floater, just like Tony Parker.

Most importantly Conley has intelligence and poise. He’s at his best in clutch situations.

Jeff, if you’re worried about losing hits by charging a nominal fee, and therefore being less appealing to prospective advertisers, then there’s a simple solution to that.

Just make your home page, which your advertisers would be mostly concerned with, free to everyone (‘anonymous’ users). But access to the comments page should be to ‘members’ only. That is, give every new person a two-month trial period to go to the comments pages for free, and then hit them up for the $20 to continue doing so. By doing that, you’ll greatly reduce the load on your server, but without discouraging the main traffic your advertisers would be interested in.

JohnCk, you’re on the right track, but not quite. Revenue sharing is good, and I do want every major city to have a major league team, although not necessarily in the same divisions. (There’s some merit to the idea of having two or more divisions, where you attempt to play your way up to a higher division, while the bad teams drop down.)

Again, let the league, as an entity, own all the teams. Then let general managers (basically franchise operators who have purchased their team’s limited rights) put their teams on the court. When I see the Knicks play the Blazers, I want them to be operating under the same salary cap.

I’d pay the $20 as a voluntary, charitable contribution. It would be worth it to me personally to eliminate all of the “server has exceeded its quota” messages.

Jeff, I like my friends, but if I had an open-door policy to my house, premium cablevision, a widescreen, high definition television, and a “no-questions-asked” access to my well-stocked refridgerator, then eventually things would get out of hand. You’re now getting to that point. Give it some thought.

JohnCk said: “sunbelt craphole.”

Funniest two words I’ve read all day.

I make involuntary charitable contributions every day. I have two kids in college.

As for Conley being better than Rondo, sure it’s premature. But that doesn’t make it incorrect. Ainge was willing to trade Paul Pierce for Chris Paul before Paul had played a single minute in the NBA. Was that premature as well?

Sometimes you have to take a position.

How anybody who lives in Atlanta could call any other city a “sunbelt craphole” is beyond me?

I actually would pay a small fee to keep this site going. I would buy the ESPN insider if it didn’t include a subsription to ESPN the magazine. You can’t get the ESPN insider without agreeing to that stupid subscription. I get too much mail as it is and I don’t want that rag filling up my mailbox.

The article sited on the original post is self-contradictory.

“Pierce won’t be happy if the Celtics bring in yet another rookie, however heralded, because, as one league executive noted last week, "Who could they draft at No. 5 that would give them someone better than they already have?” Despite the suggestions of the Celtics that they really, really, really were a playoff team last year, they weren’t close."

If this team isn’t close to being a playoff team, how can anyone argue that the #5 draft selection won’t be “someone better than they already have.”

If every rotation player on this team were better than whoever will be available at #5, wouldn’t it pretty much HAVE to be a playoff-caliber team, especially in the east?

I swear, there isn’t a lower form of intelligence than the average local beat reporter.

Cousin It,

You make a good point. Scalabrine got 1000 minutes on the Celtics last year. It is difficult to imagine how Horford, Yi or Noah wouldn’t be a lot better than Scal. It is kind of like the article talking to some unnamed east GM who said on the one hand the Celtics young players weren’t any good but on the other hand, the Celtics couldn’t resign them all since they were all in line to get big money second contracts. If they all suck, how are they going get big contracts?

Yes, Atlanta is another and perhaps best example of a “sunbelt craphole”.

Just another example of the campaign to devalue the 5th pick in the strongest draft in a decade. I’ll bet that at least 5 players in this draft go on to become all-stars. We just need to select the right one.

Pierce will not be traded. He’s not as bad as Brick makes him out to be. Danny will be staying the course, no mega trades. Only possibly a trade down with maybe Sacremento, Atlanta or Philly. Noah is also better than Brick says. Book it! At the end of next season see who has better stats Varejo or Noah even though Noah is not about stats, he’s about wins.

Totally free websites are fine, but some of the guys are starting to spend the night, falling asleep in the living room. And by the way, it’s true, Atlanta and Orlando aren’t swanky places (not like Boston).

The right one is Mike Conley. Here’s a safe prediction: if Oden or Durant doesn’t win ROY, Conley will.

Yi might be the right choice but I have no way to judge that. Also, unlike most people I would take Brewer over Horford. I really don’t see Horford as being a huge upgrade over Leon Powe. A modest upgrade, maybe, but not huge.

When you have a player like Artest or Bowen who can handle the other team’s best scorer it makes life so much easier, and Brewer has the potential to be that kind of player.

I was sold Brewer until I saw how few shots he blocked in college and that he measured out at 6’6" not 6’8". I wonder if he might be a dud. I am more sold on Yi. He is not Darko. He really has played at the international level and the Chinese league has a good reputation. I think he is a safer pick than people realize.

Thank you Cousin It. Felger went off on this the other day. Had it up to here with athletes down on Boston as a city. You think it’s hot today? Today is a major cooling trend in Phx. Dallas?! A shooting gallery. Orlando? A concrete commode. You couldn’t pay me enough to play in those places.

Do we remember the last time PP threatened to walk? I believe it was for money and at that time he was on the block for Chris Paul. For what ever reason PP has mesmerized this ownership into believing he is and should be the face of the Celtics legacy. Now we can always pontificate on what could be but I have to say Chris Paul to Big Al looks a lot better for the future of the Celtics legacy from where I sit. So that brings us to now, where the Celtics ownership is forcing the hand of management for a quick solution to playoff mediocrity by trading for an aging Garnet who certainly would bring marketing dollars and sportcenter highlights. If Garnet can’t win one with Kobe he sure as hell isn’t winning one with PP. Isn’t it the goal of a basketball organization to win it all? Or does star power override that? I guess you can figure out how I feel about the Marion deal.

So why is that ownership can’t pull the trigger on a new direction. It is obvious that Big Al is fast becoming the face of this franchise from a fan perspective and after all these threats from the PP camp I believe most of us are kind of fed-up with him. Big Al is by all estimation one of the top young big men in the game and has the work ethic and the attitude to become great. With a draft as deep as this there is no better time to change than now.

So as I have said for three years and I will say it again I am sure, "TRADE PP!” The Utah deal seems to be the most logical of scenarios and I would extend that to try and get the #3 pick from Atlanta for what would be our two first rounders and draft Horford. Any other options?

A LITTLE off topic, but I think it’s hilarious that so many teams are trying to dump their “franchise” players and how many “franchise” players are crying about needing help. It goes to show:

1) The players (and their agents) rule. Claiming to carry the brunt of the weight for a team, they demand salaries that prevent teams from putting enough pieces around them, then demand trades when they are unable to carry the teams they are supposed to be carrying.

2) Owners and GMs practive NO self restraint when it comes to resigning players on a 2nd or 3rd contract. Only top-5 guys deserve max money. If a guy falls short of that, a GM is best to let him walk rather than overpay because NO team has ever won a championship by saddling itself with a guy like PP at the max.

Jeff, I’d add Melo, Arenas, Amare, and Howard to the better than Pierce list.

Pierce isn’t bad, but the time to trade him is now. Forget the whole “putting his interests ahead of the franchise;” his trade value will never be higher. Combined with no one wanting to come to Boston, why keep him? Go all out on the rebuilding effort.

Cousin It,

Part of it is the CBA. The agents run the union which forces what agents want on the league. In the NFL a top player like Payton Manning can restructure his contract in order to bring in better players. Not so in the NBA. A player can’t take pay cut to win if he wanted to once he has signed his contract. But I agree with you about the falsity of people like Garnett claiming “they just want to win”. Well, if winning was so important to you, why did you sign that giant contract that prevents the team from signing good players for you to play with? Truth is I am not sure any of the modern players really care that much about winning. They just want their huge paychecks and their shoe contracts and maybe a rap deal if they could get one. You would think after you had made 20 or 30 million the money wouldn’t matter anymore, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

1. KG
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. LeBron
5. Kobe
6. Wade
7. Nowitzki
8. McGrady
9. Nash
10. Stoudamire
11. Kidd
12. Chris Paul
13. Deng
14. Sheed
15. Dwight Howard
16. Arenas
17 Yao Ming
18. Tony Parker
19.Deron Williams
20 Carlos Boozer
21. Elton Brand
22. Melo
23. Bosh

Go on RealGM and propose a trade of Pierce straight up for any one of the players I’ve listed above and see the response you get.

Rough Pierce equivalents:
Marion
Vince Carter
Richard Jefferson
Chauncey Billups
Rip Hamilton
Andre Iguodala
Kirk Hinrich
Michael Redd
Ray Allen
Josh Howard
Joe Johnson

I’d rank Pierce as one of the 12-15 best offensive players in the league, but when you consider his age (he has no more upside), his indifferent defense, and the fact that he isn’t a center or a point guard, I’d put him somewhere between 22 and 25 overall.

Brick,

Your 100% correct in your assessment of this team

Atlanta has two first round picks, maybe we trade Paul to Atlanta for the 3rd pick, you think Atlanta will do it!

Jeff,

You put alot of time into this blog for the enjoyment of many. I think you should be profitable for your time and effort. I think a subsciption fee is reasonable.

In regards to comments make that DA is desperate, he has not done anything yet to demonstrate that. It is reported that he will not give Marion a long term extension; he will not trade AJ except for KG and he will not trade AJ for JO. I think he is being very level headed so far.

If you use the criteria of who would trade Pierce for even up with no consideration to salary, Bricks list is pretty right on. And putting him in the top 25 category shouldn’t be a put-down, to anyone who can read that list.

When everything sugars down, we got him for the next couple years , and may as well accept that, and draft accordingly. Ainge isn’t going to draft another PG, and Conley may be better, but Rondo will be good, and thats not what we need. And we’ve got so many wings that another pick will starve for time, so lets geta big man, Yi or Noah, or trade down and get someone else. Get a backup PG at 32 and be done.

On Brewer being overhyped I tend to disagree with that post. If anything, defense is not given enough credit as it should. Too much emphasis placed on offense, the slame dunk, the no look pass, etc. You play good D with the NBA 24 second clock, you get rewarded. You just don’t normally see hard nose defense on the ESPN highlights night in and night out.

In reference to the Pistons not stopping Lebron, I saw the game where he scored something like 50 in double overtime. He literally shot some 3s from about 30 feet that dropped in and when he drove to the hoop, absolutely no help defense was given, period. Sure a Duncan works wonders, but it starts with a Bowen type player and help defense too like other teams do to us with Pierce. No reason why we shouldn’t be able to do to others what others have done to us with Brewer as a defensive specialist who can guard 3 spots.

What I like about Brewer is that with he and Rondo hawking the ball, it takes that much more pressure off guys like Big Al, Green, Pierce, Wally, etc. Especially with the 24 second clock if you can pressure the dribbler with Rondo and have Brewer playing denial against the likes of Wade/Lebron, you disrupt the other teams offensive rythym and is leads to turnovers, bad shots, potential fast breaks, etc.

I understand if Danny takes Yi, Conley, Horford at the #5, but think it is a huge mistake if we take Noah like some drafts predict; and I will be highly disappointed if we trade the pick in a deal for Marion.

I AM WITH BRICK… Add me to the $20 a yr campaign. I spend too much time here. I would also volunteer some time on the software / configuration side too.

There are things that can be done to reduce the load on the server (such as caching the images on the browser – by setting up the proper HTTP headers) – I ran a sniffer on my side and showed a trendous amount of files being downloaded per request – that could have been downloaded on the first page and shared across… …serving bytes takes resources

Although, I value pierce slightly more. And I still feel this thing is salvageable with pierce here (but I have expectations for green/perkins based on progress I have sen in the past – though i don’t think they will be allstars nor do they need to be).

as a general idea: what is perks value – especially if comes out and averages 8pt/10 boards in 30 mins a game?

I am starting to think the best way to build a championship is to… well nevermind.

JohnCK – Did you really above say that “Rasheed is at least a really good player” implying that Pierce isn’t? That is an unbelievably bad statement. I don’t think Pierce is a top 5 NBA player, but he is definitely in that next level. Probably top 10. I don’t think Garnett is currently better than Pierce, he just plays a harder to fill position on the floor. Rasheed is no where near the player that Pierce is. Same comment, just a pretty solid player at a harder to fill position. If he didn’t have so much baggage he could have been a top 10 guy. You don’t want the refs “having it out” for your team before opening tip-off just waiting to try and throw your guy off the floor. Whoever above compared Pierce’s baggage to Rasheed’s is full of it.

I agreed with your earlier post other than your opinion of Kirilenko. He is a stud player that can alter a game defensively. He is exactly what we need on our team. I would like to see us add him to Pierce and AL though and not replace Pierce with him. You can’t lose that scoring threat. If he is on our squad (maybe for the #5 and GG and something) we are right in the high end of things. Guaranteed!

You know, Jeff, it doesn’t have to be $20. $5 might be enough (for the comment pages only) to turn away a lot of the hits.

“JohnCK – Did you really above say that "Rasheed is at least a really good player” implying that Pierce isn’t?"

No that is not what I meant. I meant that Rashheed at least is a really good player implying that the other players people have thrown out to get in return for Pierce, like Kirlenko, are not. I wasn’t implying that Pierce is not a really good player. Sorry not to be clear.

Well said Jeff. Let’s poke our noses into the Celtics business and tell them how to spend their hard earned money! (Since most here seem to feel that they are being cheap spending 62 million dollars for 12 mostly selfish athletes)(Cheap would be for them all to get together and say that they are locking out all the players and that they will max out contracts at 500k per year and pay the low end ones 100k. Guarantee that every one of these NBA players would play for that kind of money. What else would most of them do?!

We’ll agree to disagree on Conley. IMO if Rondo was on Ohio St you wouldn’t notice a real difference. That’s no knock on Conley, as I’ve gone from Rondo hater at this time last year, to happily eating crow. I just feel that rondo and conley are good, and similar, but not on par with Williams or Paul.

Horford not a real upgrade over Powe? You really are losing it as we get closer to the draft. Horford won’t be a star in this league, but he’ll be along the lines of Okafor, although probably not as good. Horace Grant maybe? A guy who will get 16-17 points and 10-11 rebounds with regularity, and pound the post on defense.

What is the deal with this server? I thought it was new and improved? Jeff, you should open up a contribution box and ask for donations like most blogs do. People would send you some cash for sure. What kind of annual costs are you looking at anyway? Host a fundraiser like a bowling day or something. I’m sure people who post would show up for the cause.

Well, Kirilenko is a really good player and maybe I should have listed him above under “equivalents,” but I don’t think he’s as good as Pierce. But I do think he’s a better fit for this team, starting with the fact that he’s 3 years younger than Pierce.

Noah really generates a lot of opinion on bith sides. I think he’d be an excellent choice for Celtics and fit it well with what we needand have. His quickness and energy would complement Perk and Al perfect. He may not be able to shoot a lick, but that will keep him down low. he’ll get 10-12 hustle points everynight. And he’ll learn to score in different ways. Brewer can’t defend if he can’t get in the game.

If anyone needs a good laugh, take a look at Brick’s hilarious list of players better than Paul Pierce. Iguodala and Rasheed Wallace are “rough” equivalents? Hilarious.

JohnCK, you said it all with this: "The agents run the union which forces what agents want on the league. " I hate the CBA.

The players go for the money when they are young, probably on the mistaken, ego-driven belief that ANY team they play on will surely be a winner. Then, when they have made, say, $80-$100 million, and they realize they’re not as good as they previously believed, they start looking to buddy them up with Kobe or Duncan or Shaq to get the ring.

Brick,
Tony Parker is nowhere near the player Pierce is. He’s had the benefit of playing with Duncan, but put him on the Kings in place of Bibby or Philly in place of Andre Miller, for example, and let’s see how great he looks.

Along similar lines, I don’t think McGrady has done ANYTHING to prove himself better than Pierce. He may be more athletic and flashy, but show me the results: His individual numbers are the same, and at leat Pierce has gotten out of the first round.

There are other guys on that list who are good on paper, but if you watch them play a lot … eh. Brand? I catch about 20 Clippers games in L.A. each year. He’s a very spotty guy. He plays his position well, but is not a difference maker. Again, that’s why his teams have been, for the most part, losers.

Melo? I haven’t seen it yet. He scores. Lots of guys do that. He doesn’t dominate, and his teams underperform.

And I really don’t get your infatuation with Rasheed Wallace. He won a championship with Detroit, but I still believe that was a matter of rightplace/right time. His performance in this year’s playoffs was so-so at best.

“And I really don’t get your infatuation with Rasheed Wallace. He won a championship with Detroit, but I still believe that was a matter of rightplace/right time. His performance in this year’s playoffs was so-so at best.”

He’s a so so player in general. He averaged 12 points a game this year on about 42% shooting as a big man in the East? His post defense must be really something. He is an inconsistent headcase who doesn’t even have that much talent.

Well if you think Pierce is better than the current NBA finals MVP who is virtually unguardable, then be my guest. You’re entitled to your opinion. Once again, go over to RealGM and propose some trades. You’ll get a very quick dose of reality from the fans of the other 29 teams.

Um. RealGM. That’s a website, right? Based on … the opinions of … people like us? … who are not currently actually running any NBA franchises? And how does that prove anything?

Chauncey Billups is a fanials MVP. So was Cedric Maxwell. An award for a 7-game series is not always the best measure of who the best player is overall.

Also, anyone who truly believes Parker is MORE important than … oh, i don’t know -Duncan, perhaps - is high on blog fumes.

Again, Brick is absolutely hilarious. “I’m right. Just ask fans of other teams who post on Real GM.”

Well, if you propose Parker for Pierce over on RealGM the San Antonio fans may be biased, but there are also “neutral” fans of 28 other teams who might give you an accurate asessment. Or are Celtics fans the only models of objectivity when it comes to Paul Pierce?

You guys are the ones who are hilarious.

Ok, proposing a trade, and determining which player is better than the other are two totally different things. SA just won the championship, so why on earth would they make a trade, unless it was for something that blew them away? Pierce is a much better player than TP, and I don’t even think it is debatable. Put PP on a team with Manu, Duncan, & co., with a real coach like Pop, and it’s PP who is winning championships. This question is about who is a better individual player. Sorry, but most of the names on that list are not better than PP. Also, on par is not better.

If the Bob Cats called and offered Okafor for PP straight up, would you do it?

I would.

Same ? for the the following

1. KG
2. Duncan
3. LeBron
5. Kobe
6. Wade
7. Nowitzki
9. Nash
10. Stoudamire
12. Chris Paul
13. Deng
15. Dwight Howard
17 Yao Ming
18. Tony Parker
19.Deron Williams
21. Elton Brand
22. Bosh

Uh, Brick, the NBA is not a democracy. Office workers wasting time on RealGM.com do not determine trade value. Real GMs—the guys paid by NBA franchises to make the decisions—do.

What you find on RealGM.com is exactly what you find here: opinions that mean nothing in the real world.

Also, of course SA wouldn’t trade Parker for Pierce. Parker is a better player for THAT team. Plus, it’s harder to replace a PG that a swing man. But it doesn’t mean he’s a BETTER player.

Not a lot of 6’ 11’’ players can do what Rasheed can do.

Little D,
YES! to almost all. But that doesn’t mean Deng (for example) is a better player NOW. It means that keeping Pierce with a bunch of 22-year-old kids doesn’t make any sense.

Little D,
True. Not many 6’11" players can manage to grab only 7.7 rebounds in 33 minutes per game and shoot only 42%. Good point.

Oh, and lead the league in technicals. And become a locker room pariah the second things don’t go his way. I almost forgot that intangible quality he brings.

I was talking about skill set. I’m aware he’s a malcontent, I just love guys his size that can play. I also dislike guys who can play but play when they feel like it.

An earlier poster said Horford may be like Okafor. If he’s 3/4 of the player Oakafor is/or will be, he’s a steal.

Add Jermaine O’Neil to that list.

“Not a lot of 6’ 11’’ players can do what Rasheed can do.”

Yes, and Rasheed can’t do what most 6’11 players in the NBA can, most notably rebound or have a consistent post game. Most 6’11 NBA players can keep control over their emotions as well, but we won’t count that.