Assessment of Team Direction
by Jeff Clark on Jul 15, 2007 7:06 AM EDT
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"Contention" hasn't been a word heard around Boston is quite some time. Celtics fans have dwelled in the perpetual rebuild for the better part of 2 decades.
The team has been roundly criticized for a move that brought them a Hall of Fame player in his prime to complement another in Pierce, who is Springfield,-bound himself in all likelihood.
What's been missing from this equation is respect...for both the team and the individual players who've been here through tough stages of the current management's rebuilding plan.
Patience is a virtue, but it can be understood if fans of this team are a little anxious for some results...
Read the rest after the jump.
But getting past all that negativity, the team is STILL in a position to make a serious push toward contention with a few strategic moves. Boston truly hasn't had the assets to attack the market in quite some time.
With all the questions surrounding management's commitment to "spending what it takes to win", an accusation that's been bandied about for the better part of the past two off-season’s, the team could quickly change that miss-perception.
The issue really does remain the team's decision to make an aggressive move to take the Eastern Conference. It's been clear all season how substantial this year’s offseason market could be. With the solidarity the front office has been able to maintain over the past four seasons, this should be a great proving ground for their long-term approach.
Fandom and media alike have battled over the organizational direction, but quietly the team has put itself in a position to be a REAL player in the marketplace. This hasn't happened in years so it can be forgiven that most die-hards aren't quick to warm to the possibility of actual competitive Boston Celtics basketball....the best of them know that 2001-2002 wasn't anything to get worked up about.
So let's all just think about the possibilities of a couple of realistic moves. The Celtics have been in a great position thus far in most of the main trade conversations this year. They've got assets at all different levels of ability throughout their roster and they've balanced their payroll with short and mid-term contracts that help to facilitate moves.
All organizations will make mistakes along the way, but the team has kept itself in a position to improve it's standing in terms of their ability to build a competitive squad with short and long-term potential.
Obviously the Al Jefferson situation has been a key piece in the political drama of this team for the last couple of years. The clear talent he had and the overwhelming controversy he's drawn on the message boards is testament to the polarity and extremism that this team's core base has reached....we're all at a boiling point...
We are also at a cross-road...
This team can strike. They can make a push to do something substantial and work toward improving the aggregate value of the team over time to the short-term decision making. They've done it painfully right so far because they HAVEN'T committed to near-sighted "fixes" for the sake of box office rake. Even while the team's youth movement has tantalized enough to do the work. The team’s aggressive ticket sales and promotions efforts have made up the gap. Stratbridge and Synergy should be thanked for that. As well as a progressive front office mind-set that has helped to facilitate this tipping point corporate culture....
Let's see what happens. Let's see if we may have some leadership and direction out of all of this waiting. There is definitely a number of options that the team could choose to follow, but as we break it down let's go to the finite.
Something simple that fits the basic principles of this team:
At 38-39 Gary Payton is capable of playing a supporting role to the young PG crew. He's good for 12 to 15 minutes a game and about 15+ games of starting level play if used in the right situations. People get too fixated on top-level performance. When you're dealing with a vet it's still all about figuring out what he's good for, not what's he got left. Respect and resume mean more in the NBA than almost any other sport.
Payton has the respect of the refs, the experience of being in the finals, as well as being a leader and winning with other great players...
The point isn't about bringing up Gary Payton, just like last month wasn't about Lamar Odom. The idea is to think about the past 4 years of Celtics basketball and not the last 20...
If the team is willing to commit to a substantial improvement in the frontcourt, they could easily get value out of a future-bound HoFer with the "million dollar" exception. There have been a lot of rumors floating around about possibilities and the team could work itself into a favorable position to actually compete. The infamous "one player away" move to compliment both the vets and the developing youth could plausibly take place, (Odom where are you.)
I'd love to see Payton come back, play 2 seasons and become an assistant and take the Avery Johnson express...
That's just me though...
At the end of the day, this team has wanted "relevance" with a mix of safety. No one wants to be the Miami Heat right now-though they would love to have that ring.
The principles of winning haven't changed so greatly that a team can't get back into the fight if they pay attention to the right faculties they have at their disposal. "No More Excuses" is the mantra for this squad? Let's pay that back in spades...
We'll see what transpires between now and training camp....
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I’m sorry, Eric, but I just don’t see it. I really don’t think this team is any better position to “strike” than it ever has been. What are our much talked about “assets”? Theo’s contract and… what? Our youth — if you’re realistic about things, and presume that Big Al is a piece of the future, rather than a trade chip — really isn’t any better than anybody else’s; I can name probably about ten teams with better young players than we have, and that’s just the sad reality of our situation.
We have an ownership that has been motivated by money throughout their tenure. I’ve heard reports — and I don’t know their accuracy — that the team made in excess of $15 million in profit last season. This team, historically, hasn’t shown the willingness to spend money to bring in talented players, and has on multiple occasions settled for less talent in return for greater financial flexibility.
That doesn’t make our team much different than most of the teams in the NBA. However, most teams in the NBA haven’t adopted a “win now” approach around two aging and recently injured superstars, either.
So, why is criticism unfair? What about this team’s track record makes you think that they’re going to make the smart, and potentially expensive, move of bringing in another big name talent? And what makes you think we have the realistic possibility to do so? While using Ratliff’s contract as a facilitator makes some sense, I really think that that’s about our only hope for an upgrade; at this point, unless we’re moving Big Al or maybe Rondo, Odom seems to be our only hope, and that’s a slim one.
As for Payton… no. He’s just not that good anymore. We can do better than 5 points, 3 assists and 39% shooting in 22 minutes. If our hope for the future is centered around a 39-year old point guard, we’re in more trouble than any of us are thinking.
by Roy_Hobbs on Jul 15, 2007 7:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Veteran players, like Payton (and actually Payton) were reported to have tuned out Doc. How would that change?
That type of player, might come to a championship contender for a minimum deal, but a contender for “relevancy?”
Which reminds me of the bumper sticker/slogan from a few years back (was it ML’s) “Championship Driven.”
Is this years slogan, as you say, “No more Excuses,” or “Relevancy Driven?”
Imho; what we are realistically left with are Ratliff and Telfair and/or trading Ryan Gomes and/or Gerald Green,for minimum to 3.8 million salaried replacements, unless ownership will include Ratliff’s expiring and bite the luxury tax bullet.
That’s the real issue to filling in the holes on this team; spending over the tax limit in 2008-09.
Perhaps they want to see if we’ve got the HOF Ray Allen, or the successor to LaFrentz, Szczerbiak, Ratliff, on the I.L..
by JB_Celticsstuff on Jul 15, 2007 7:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Roy, with Theo’s deal combined with AL we’ve got the assets to get 99% of the players in this league..we’ve got the best contract by far with insurance and a top talent on the cheap…the trick is to get in the playoff mix and NOT trade AL….Payton??? God no
by Motown on Jul 15, 2007 7:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Danny is building a team to win 50 games around AL&Rondo 3-5 yrs from now…good luck..this PP&RA era is a try at 45 in a weak conference with the trigger cocked to trade either guy to add to AL….now if AL gets you enough today ,either by performance or as trade asset,then maybe this group can win..this is about 4 guys-AL,PP,RA and Rondo and when and how to get this to work
by Motown on Jul 15, 2007 7:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sure we could trade Big Al, but that just seems counter-productive. Outside of him, our young talent simply isn’t that elite. The only young player who both has potential and trade value at this point is probably Rondo, and none of us are anxious to see him go, either.
Gerald, Gomes, Tony… those “chips” in all likelihood aren’t enough to land us the type of quality player we’re going to need to compete. I’d love to see Camby here, and I’d be on board with Odom (despite it moving Big Al to center full-time), but outside of that, I don’t see a lot of immediate impact moves available.
It’s one thing to preach patience; I can buy into that. However, I can’t accept the “this team is poised to do something big” mantra. I really think that’s a bit of a pipe dream, and I fully expect the team to let Theo’s contract expire, so as to eliminate any chance of even bordering the luxury tax after Big Al’s extension (assuming, of course, that we do the prudent thing and resign Al).
by Roy_Hobbs on Jul 15, 2007 7:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ray Allen is plan B .
Plan A went down the drain when Oden/Durant went out the window that day.
by havlicekstoletheball on Jul 15, 2007 8:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Either they are going to get serious about bringing in players who play defense, and a coach who emphasizes defense, such as by devoting practice time to defense, and by putting good defenders out on the floor instead of on the bench, it’s all just whistling in the wind.
What I see is a roster built around players like Pierce, Allen, Jefferson and Gomes—all offense and very little defense.
LOL. We’ve spent hours debating why free agents won’t come here and why players like KG and Marion refuse to play here. Maybe we ought to be asking why Ainge and Rivers can’t even attract a respected assistant coach.
Ainge isn’t building anything. He’s looking to trade Jefferson for a couple of years of respectability, and then “apres moi, le deluge.” That’s what’s really going on at Healthpoint.
By the way, Roy Hobbs, the team did make 15.7 million (EBITDA) for the 2005-2006 season, according to Forbes Magazine. I have not seen any numbers for 2006-2007. I assume that most NBA teams are on a July 1-June 30 fiscal year, but I don’t know that for certain.
See: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/32/biz_06nba_NBA-Team-Valuations_Rank.html
by Brickowski on Jul 15, 2007 8:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you, Brick. So, in ‘05-’06, we were the 9th most profitable team in the league, with operating income of $15.7 million. And yet, we can’t take a hit of a couple million dollars to pay the luxury tax to sign somebody to the MLE. That makes me feel better.
by Roy_Hobbs on Jul 15, 2007 8:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually a further read on the #‘s will show that they had one of the smallest change of value on the team, probably due to not owning the venue. Since their value will not dramatically change their ability to borrow greater amounts of money and their revenue will not dramatically change. Since 1/2 of the team value has already been put out there in debt the operating capital will more than likely not be heavy spent but carried over for possible future expenditures. Also they are not the 9th most profitable as the operating capital doesn’t include taxes, interest etc.
by nickagneta on Jul 15, 2007 8:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, it’s more complicated than that, Roy Hobbes. Remember that Ainge likes to use part of the MLE to give multi-year contracts to his second round picks. This is not a bad strategy if you want to have full Bird rights in a second rounder who blossoms. But it means that he doesn’t really have the full MLE available for a free agent.
Besides, I don’s see any free agents out there that I like.
The latest rumor, as I’m sure you’ve seen, is that Ainge is talking to Golden State about Jasikevicius— yet another good offensive player who can’t defend a chair. Even so, Telfair and Alan Ray for Jasikevicius would make sense for both teams. Sarunas is a very smart offensive player from who Rondo could learn quite a bit.
by Brickowski on Jul 15, 2007 8:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
nickagneta, none of the other team’s numbers include taxes, interest, depreciation, amortization, etc. so I don’t see your point.
I don’t know how much debt they have to service. I’m sure they have a working capital line, but was money borrowed to finance the acquisition of the team? I don’t think so. To my knowledge it was all VC equity money, although there may be accrued interest on preferred stock, convertible debt or other “mezzanine” financing.
Frankly, it looked to me that the biggest predictor of profitability was payroll. The Bulls posted a hughe profit for 2005-2006, but they had slashed payroll to create the cap space that they subsequently used to sign Ben Wallace.
Let me also dispell the notion that the Celtics’ arena deal is a bad one. It’s a great deal. The Celtics pay no rent. It is a pure profit sharing arrangement, in which the Celtics and Jeremy Jacobs share a portion of the ticket revenues and concessions for each Celtics game.
I’m not aware of any NBA team that owns its own arena. NBA teams are like airlines: they lease everything.
by Brickowski on Jul 15, 2007 9:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Folks, 15.7 million profit on a 300 million investment is hardly a windfall (
by moskqq on Jul 15, 2007 9:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Apparently some posting problems still exist on this site as only a fraction of my last post was printed. Has anyone else experienced this problem?
by moskqq on Jul 15, 2007 9:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No, it was 15.7 million profit of a 350 million-dollar investment. Also (if the Forbes numbers are in the ballpark), the value of the franchise had increased to 367 million as of 1/1/07. Obviously the valuation figure is subjective.
No, they aren’t amking alot of money, but they aren’t investing any more, either. That’s what happens when a team goes from 45 wins to 33 to 24 with a payroll that is pushing up against the luxury tax threshhold.
by Brickowski on Jul 15, 2007 9:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
BTW there is some sort of screen painting issue, but it goes away if you refresh.
by Brickowski on Jul 15, 2007 9:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wanted to comment on the “impressive” SL performance of Jose Barea…as exemplified in last night’s performance. While undersized at 5’11" (similar to Mike Conley) he demonstrated exceptional offensive and defensive skills, great court awareness and the passing skills to match, enough speed and athleticism to penetrate the paint and finish “above the rim” and the ability to direct a team. IMHO he epitomized what we mistakenly thought Sebastian Telfair would be.
While we patiently WAIT for Allan Ray to give us a reason to extend his contract, Jose Barea is a true PG and has the skills that neither Gabe Pruit, Sebastian Telfair nor Allan Ray have been able to demonstrate. His signing could give us realistic security at the PG position at the “low ball” price we’re willing to pay.
by moskqq on Jul 15, 2007 9:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Barea is not a free agent. He is under contract to Dallas at 2.5 million for 2007-2008. You would have to trade for him.
And if you offered Telfair, who also makes 2.5 million, Dallas wouldn’t take it.
by Brickowski on Jul 15, 2007 9:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pruitt’s definitely not a PG. I think he could be ok as an 11th or 12th man playing SG. He has a nice outside shot and teams usually have a need for someone who can hit 3’s. He’ll replace Ray.
To Brick’s earlier point, this team is loaded with offense guys but no one (except maybe Rondo) who can play defense. I’m still not sure why the C’s did not pursue AK47, since he could have provided some defense on the front-line. Maybe they did, but it sounds like they were pursuing Allen behind the scenes in the weeks leading up to the draft. I won’t be convinced that the Jazz would not have taken the same package we offered Seattle for AK47.
We desparately need a good defensive Center and a back-up PG. Until we take care of those two needs, I don’t see this team winning more than 40 – 45 games and getting past the first round of the playoffs.
I hope I’m wrong.
by DJ to Bird on Jul 15, 2007 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
DJ to Bird; While you lament our lack of standout one-on-one defensive players (don’t overlook Brandon Wallace and perhaps a slimmer Glenn Davis), recall that the Olympics have amptly demonstrated that an excellent TEAM defense can compenste for a lack of individual one-on-one defenders. While we possess better athleticism and “supposedly” better one-on-one defenders in the Olympics, we’re routinely reminded that a high basketball IQ and an excellent TEAM defense shouldn’t be overlooked
It would appear that Doc and the Celtic’s are now looking for an assit. coach with a DEFENSIVE reputation…a decided improvement over the “retreads” previously being trotted out ….
by moskqq on Jul 15, 2007 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pruitt=Juan Dixon. Pruitt doesn’t have pg skills and never will. He played one good quarter in the entire summer league, and even in that good quarter he had no assists. D-league is the best place for him.
by Brickowski on Jul 15, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If they would take KG&extend him doesn’t that show Wyc would pay serious tax?…they’ve wasted money-Raef,Scal,Theo and my guess is for the right guy they blow the tax wide open…no
by Motown on Jul 15, 2007 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brick,Camby is your big guy thought…who you got as point???
by Motown on Jul 15, 2007 10:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brick the point was that not everyteam has the same unincluded liabilities and therefore profitabilty could not be tied into the Forbes working capital numbers. Also since the team’s value increase was low (4% or approximately $15million) the team may need reserve the working capital to assure future “real” profitability. The Knicks have a working capital of -$39million but with 0 debt and the prospects of team value increase of 10% of $600million future “real” profitability may already be ensured.That’s keeping it simple. I’m sure there other investing factors therein, however, Frobes did not go into what the accrued debt was, although I also agree it probably was not for the initial purchase. However with decreasing win totals, third team status in a sports rich community, and is a large portion of incoming revenue assured? I don’t know what the %increase/decrease in ticket sales are. This team’s ownership mindset is unknown. Does the need to win override profitablity. Does future profitabilty need to be ensured before the need to win will take over? Also what has been the trend of the working capital? All things that need to be known before we as fans can say “Hey, you made a profit of $15million, spend it”.
by nickagneta on Jul 15, 2007 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My first choice would be a trade for Antonio Daniels or Chris Duhon. My second choice would be an experienced pg who has been playing in Europe, e.g. Will Solomon.
Barea would be ok, depending on the price.
by Brickowski on Jul 15, 2007 10:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hobbs…absolutely right on.
And with that in mind and bricks point of no one on the FA market that seems worth it, we should have made a harder push for a young big that fills a team need…Darko.
And how can anyone be overly optimistic when all we have to go on is the silence from the Celtics brass as to targets, the failure to address needs at the draft, and their existing track record of FA and trade aquisitions.
The team can prove me wrong with the play on the court, but 1) I can’t believe we would stand pat until November, and 2) Its a long time to wait in the silence.
by cos on Jul 15, 2007 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not to divert the conversation to much but am I the only one that feels like the organization makes its moves without considering what other teams are doing? It seems like as soon as we make a move, someone becomes available that would make much more sense. Im just waiting for the day that we trade Ratliffs contract for a bag of peanuts, and an all-star comes on the market.
by cos on Jul 15, 2007 10:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
moskqq, we were 24th in opposing team FG% last year. I don’t think it really matters whether that was attributed to individuals or the team as a whole. An assist coach who can help teach defense would help, but it seems like candidates are not lined up at our door right now.
Also, if you are counting on Brandon Wallace and Glenn Davis to help us on defense that we are in really big trouble.
by DJ to Bird on Jul 15, 2007 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Celts better make the best dang trade they can and get the best possible vet player they can. I don’t see this team be ready for the run with Big Al just yet. When Big Al is truly ready, we are back to rebuilding. Five years from now it is the same ole, same ole.
Big Al may be great but on his own he’s no savior. Orlando probably still has Howard, Lewis, J. Nelson; many of the Bulls are reaching their prime, look for the Raptors to remain good, Miami will still have Wade, Lebron will be there with Cavs and maybe better players too.
Now or never time guys.
by docextension on Jul 15, 2007 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re DJ…both Davis and Wallace gave shown a high BBIQ, the first step in promoting “potential” (be it offensive or defensive). Wallace showed great timing on blocks in SL (as well as 2.9 bpg in college) and in this last game, Davis showed a defensive potential not previously seen.. However, to get better hops and add the necessary quickness, Davis needs to lose more weight.
I did not mean to suggest that ALL of our defensive problems could be corrected by the addition of Wallace and Davis, but that these players have shown a penchant for defensive play.
by moskqq on Jul 15, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Players who can defend; one-on-one:
Perkins
Rondo
T. Allen
Wallace
Davis (All bets are off if he plays center)
Pruitt
Gomes and Powe will work hard at it and Pierce is quite good, when he is inclined.
Really there is some material to work with and with zone/team help defenses in vogue, there is no reason we can’t improve greatly, but it’s still at least 50% effort (see Pierce).
Tom Thibodeau was mentioned today. Hold your breath!
by JB_Celticsstuff on Jul 15, 2007 12:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Ainge is talking with Mullin I hope it’s about Pietris not a back up point guard. Need defense now. Plus, don’t sleep on Tony Allen yet. He will help us when he’s ready.
by celty86 on Jul 15, 2007 12:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Its not so much one on one defensive the team needs, its a better team defensive system or maybe a team defensive system. While having 1 or 2 great one on one defenders is nice, I’d settle for a team system. The spurs aren’t a great defensive team because all their players are great 1 on 1 players, its cause they have a system and the team follows it.
JB, what do you mean by that THibodeau comment? is he a defensive guru or not. As far as I know, the defense that Houston played last year was due to Van Gundy and his defensive principles. I could be wrong though.
by cos on Jul 15, 2007 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I really liked what I saw from Jose Juan Barea as well. Others have probably seen more of him against NBA high calibre PGs… How does he match up in those scenarios? With our glut at the PF spot and Dallas’ need for interior toughness, Powe might be an intriguing chip in trade for Barea. Not sure I would want to give up Powe but if the team is targeting Front court players via trade, and with Perk, Jefferson, Gomes, and Glen it might make sense to deal a player like Powe for a need like Barea. I could certainly live with Barea as a backup to Rondo… He has a really good feel for the game from what I have seen. He also appears to be a tough SOB which is always nice as well.
Like Brick, I also would like to target Daniels and Duhon, but wouldn’t want to give up too much to get them. Earl Watson and Kevin Ollie are two other players who may fit the bill. I, like others, am not too enamored of the GP idea… he’s a bit too old.
Unlike Brick and others though… I think that the C’s will get, at the least, average to good defense out of Ray, Al, and Paul. I think they will all push each other to do better on the defensive end. If we don’t acquire any starters to replace Rondo and Perk at PG and C, they are good to excellent defenders to provide balance. What is encouraging is that the C’s definitely have the ability to add some pieces. They just have to make sure they are the right pieces.
by alchemist on Jul 15, 2007 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I get a chuckle out of the media calling Ray Allen a future hall of famer. Based on what? He’s a very good player….But those same reporters see Iverson and Pierce as HOFers as well. There would have to be a much lower standard of acceptance.
The reality is until a true defensive philosophy and mentality is adopted we’ll never know which of our players are good defenders and which aren’t. The blitz isn’t a defense. You can see the willing defenders in Rondo, Tony, and Perk. We saw a major improvement in Big Al when we was actually in position. The problem is the blitz puts everybody out of position almost by design. We can remember Paul being a solid defender under Pitino, Obie, and Carroll…and then when Payton came on board along with Rivers…virtually ignoring that end of the court.
We may have the right pieces now. We won’t know until the players we have get some professional coaching and direction defensively.
by iowa plowboy on Jul 15, 2007 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"
I get a chuckle out of the media calling Ray Allen a future hall of famer. Based on what? He’s a very good player….But those same reporters see Iverson and Pierce as HOFers as well. There would have to be a much lower standard of acceptance. "
Uh yeah, Iverson is a first ballot Hall of Famer. 1 MVP, 2 All Star MVPs, 4 Scoring Titles, 3 First Team All NBAs, 3 Second Team All NBAs, and 1 Third Team. He also led the league in steals 3 times, take that for what it is worth.
by soap07 on Jul 15, 2007 1:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That post was a lot of words to make a pretty vague statement about having “options” with one specific suggestion of bringing back Gary Payton.
I feel cheated.
by Cousin It on Jul 15, 2007 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JB_Celticsstuff said:
Players who can defend; one-on-one:
Perkins
Rondo
T. Allen
Wallace
Davis (All bets are off if he plays center)
Pruitt
Perkins? In my estimation, he’s foul-prone and often lost on the defensive end. Bad footwork too.
We won’t know how good T. Allen will respond from this latest injury. It took him awhile to find his quickness and aggressiveness after the last injury.
It remains to be seen how much playing time Wallace, Davis and Pruitt even get. Doc’s usually slow to give rookies quality minutes. Don’t forget we still have Scal and Powe. And yes, Doc will probably give more minutes to Scal than Davis at least during the first half of the season. I’m not saying that’s a good decision, but that’s Doc’s history.
Based on what I saw in SL, Pruitt may have a hard time defending PG’s in this league. He’d do better guarding SG’s.
We REALLY need a C and back-up PG.
by DJ to Bird on Jul 15, 2007 1:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JB, what do you mean by that THibodeau comment? is he a defensive guru or not. As far as I know, the defense that Houston played last year was due to Van Gundy and his defensive principles. I could be wrong though.-cos
I meant; “we should be so lucky.”
Here is a bit from a bio on NBA.com., with a strong resume and enthusiastic endorsement from Van Gundy.
Let’s hope that Doc can swallow his pride and Danny knows the area code for Salem.
This guy would be a prize and a candidate to replace Doc, which I’m sure Ainge wouldn’t have to whisper in his ear.
http://www.nba.com/coachfile/tom_thibodeau/index.html?nav=page
Tom Thibodeau
College – Salem State
Tom Thibodeau begins his second season as assistant head coach of the Rockets and 15th year of coaching in the NBA. In his first year in Houston, Thibodeau helped the Rockets set franchise records in scoring defense and field goal percentage defense.
“Having Tom on this staff gives us a tremendous advantage,†Rockets Head Coach Jeff Van Gundy said. “He is an expert in the areas of game preparation and player development. I feel that he’s one of the finest coaches in the NBA today and should be a top candidate to be a head coach.â€
Prior to joining the Rockets, Thibodeau spent the previous seven years as an assistant coach with the New York Knicks. During his tenure with the Knicks, New York set a then-NBA record by holding 33 consecutive opponents under 100 points in the 2000-2001 season. Thibodeau and the Knicks coaching staff also helped Van Gundy coach the Eastern Conference All-Stars in the 2000 NBA All-Star Game.
by JB_Celticsstuff on Jul 15, 2007 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The purpose is to take people’s fixation away from “home run” fantasy moves…the Celtics already have 3 All Star caliber performers in Jefferson/Pierce/Allen…the team just needs a veteran boost at the Point and in the frontcourt and they could truly be contending…
The idea that this team has nothing to offer any other team is complete horse-****. Trades in the NBA aren’t often one-to-one value. Every trade is different and each has circumstances surrounding them that allow for different needs to be addressed in different ways…
We’ll see what happens…I like my chances of this team backing me up…
by BillfromBoston on Jul 15, 2007 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
soap07 said:
Uh yeah, Iverson is a first ballot Hall of Famer. 1 MVP, 2 All Star MVPs, 4 Scoring Titles, 3 First Team All NBAs, 3 Second Team All NBAs, and 1 Third Team. He also led the league in steals 3 times, take that for what it is worth.
—————————
It’s worth very little with the alienated coaches, teammates, and franchise left in his wake, and the consequent lifetime sub .500 record of his teams. But sadly, you’re probably right.
——————————————————————————————
If Payton came on as a coach and coached defense the way he played defense prior to coming to Boston, I’d be all for it. He’d literally have to tune out Doc, Danny, and Wyc to be successful as a defensive coach. Because clearly, defense is priority Z in River’s “system”.
I would not want Payton as a player.
by iowa plowboy on Jul 15, 2007 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JB_Celticsstuff said:
Players who can defend; one-on-one:
Perkins
Rondo
T. Allen
Wallace
Davis (All bets are off if he plays center)
Pruitt
I agree with your assessment. Starting in November, other than Rondo, who on that list is going to average more than 22 minutes a game? Perk maybe if he can stay out of foul trouble but other than that, the rest aren’t going to play more than eight minutes if their lucky.
by Little D on Jul 15, 2007 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Rondo is truly “all that” then the team only needs a veteran backup who can play error-free bball for about 10-15 mpg and provide quality instruction and guidance based off of his experience….If Rondo ISN’T ready to play 30 minutes then the team will need a vet who is capable of playing starters minutes with some regularity…depends on the organizations assessment of the situation, not ours…
However, I do think that Payton is pretty sound decision to basically sit on the bench behind Rondo and add experience and expertise to the locker room…of course he’s not my primary option, but I personally think that more is needed from the frontcourt in terms of impact aquisition…
This team can fight for a ring with a major frontcourt acquisition (Odom,Harrington) and a minor backcourt one (Payton, Anthony Jonhnson, Saras) The team will still be tough with more minor moves, but a couple of feasable additions could spring board this team up the standings…
by BillfromBoston on Jul 15, 2007 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
any player that tunes out doc sounds good to me. the key to success for the players of this team and the team in general seems to be to tune out doc. sign payton, he can only help bringing along rondo and the rest of the young guards. it would be a great move……….. odom, not so much. other than signing a veteran point guard we dont need to make any other move. we have all our young talent, minny’s 1st on top of our picks in the next draft, and a team with a great inside-out game and 3 allstar talents. and great young talent under that. SIGN PAYTON. great idea! only addition we need to make is that. gerald and the other young wings can learn from paul and ray, rondo and the other young guards can learn from GP…. and they can all tune out doc and learn the right way, AND WIN! great idea.
by gocelts34n7 on Jul 15, 2007 2:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
also the ray allen trade was a great move. do i wish we got pau gasol or jermaine oneal instead? of course i do. but do i wish we got Yi instead? of course i dont! i wouldve much rather had J.O to play next to al in the frontcourt, and just start pierce and gerald at 2 and 3, or pierce and gomes. and rondo at point……… but the ray trade works great for me. he’s a great fit on the court to open up the floor for al’s game inside, and pierces game at the 3. great fit as a leader to teach all the young talent how to WIN and how to conduct themselves as professional ballplayers………. its a great move. they wanted to add a veteran instead of ANOTHER rookie, and they got one of the best! all they had to give up to make it happen was their backup point guard, plus as a bonus they got to dump wally world! thats a great pickup, now the only thing they need to do is fire doc and get a real coach and this team as it stands now could make SERIOUS NOISE!
by gocelts34n7 on Jul 15, 2007 2:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“It’s worth very little with the alienated coaches, teammates, and franchise left in his wake, and the consequent lifetime sub .500 record of his teams. But sadly, you’re probably right.”
Not sure what you mean. Iverson, to my recollection, never played with a single all star in his tenure with the 76ers (Mutumbo? Ratliff possibly?), or atleast one that made the all star team while he was on the Sixers. Iverson, on the Sixers, was on 4 sub. 500 teams, and 5 .500 teams, including 3 that won 45 and one that reached 55 wins.
The fact that Iverson took that horrible Sixer team to the Finals in 2001 alone makes him a Hall of Famer.
by soap07 on Jul 15, 2007 4:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
iverson is easily a hall of famer. rookie of the year. 8 time allstar. 7 time allnba. 1 time mvp. 2 time asg mvp. #1 pick in 96, all his college accomplishments in 2 unreal years, unbelievable 2001 playoff run. eastern conference championship (lost 4-1 in finals…. but got his teammates to nearly win 4 of 5 vs superior powerhouse lakers). maximized his teammates around him always with his infectious passion and heart in his play. unbelievable player, an alltime great.
easily a hall of famer, only thing you can hold against him is bad teams and a bad GM in philly. KG had the same problem, no one holds that against him. iverson is an alltime great and one of the best players of our generation, a first ballot hall of famer easily and a legend, one of the best.
by gocelts34n7 on Jul 15, 2007 4:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Let me restate my post. I meant that if Ainge is talking about a player from GS, I’d rather it be someone other than their backup point. I’d love Biedrins of course but that won’t happen so maybe Pietris who knows. He can play D. If we target a back up point, I’d rather see us go for Chris Duhon, maybe Daniels.
by celty86 on Jul 15, 2007 6:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gary Payton as a Celtic’s defensive coach? IMHO it would be yet another dumb move. Not every NBA player makes a good coach.
Part of good coaching is early recognition of offensive strategy, a nack for strategic counter moves and a proven trail record of success, especially since the coaching staff will be UNDERMANNED. It also involves recognition of a team’s strength and weaknesses and the abilty to design a defensive scheme that maximizes strength while “hiding” deficiencies. I would much prefer taking chances on Thibodeau.
Gary Payton may eventually prove his worth as a coach but he needs seasoning and experience to discover his suitability as a coach. To leave such an important position (as a defensive genius) to an unknown, untried commodity is too risky.
by moskqq on Jul 15, 2007 7:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
BillfromBoston said:
“The purpose is to take people’s fixation away from "home run” fantasy moves."
My fear is that ownership is fixated on home run fantasy moves, namely a trade for Kevin Garnett. I suspect that one reason Boston hasn’t made a move— even one so blatantly obvious as waiving Allan Ray (whose presence on any NBA roster screams “this is a lottery team”)— is becaue if they relinquish even one more asset— e.g. Ratliff’s expiring deal—they can kiss KG goodbye.
by Brickowski on Jul 15, 2007 8:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You guys know way more about this than me, but I also thought Bareas looked awesome. Powe for Bareas? I would do it in a heartbeat. I like Leon, but when all is said and done, he’s a JAG. I know you can’t base too much on Summer league, but Big Baby looks like a real player, so we can get by without Powe – no problem. But Dallas looks like they have some studs already – and one guy was virtually identical to Powe, for that matter. I don’t think they make that trade. Any other ideas? I’d love to get that Husky on the Celts.
by crocker90 on Jul 15, 2007 8:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brick, you may be on to something there? But that would be a ton of salary to carry on just three guys. There’s a rumor, if you can call it that, that Odom will be headed our way within a week. That might be more feasible than KG coming here. But you’re probably correct in that Danny is holding out any and all last hope for KG. If we somehow did end up with KG, I hope we could also get Hassell too. I like his D and he can knock down some perimeter shots too.
by celty86 on Jul 15, 2007 10:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if they trade al for garnett theyre the dumbest front office in celtic history. that would be terrible. big al, gerald, and rondo should all be untouchable, period. ESPECIALLY BIG AL! we havent had a dominant young big man to build around in 20 years, lets not hand away the one we got for a 32 year old. al is dominant and only scratched the surface, if anyone should know how hard it is to get a young franchise bigman, it should be boston. lottery balls cost us two of em, and we’ve been waiting 20 years to get one. now we have one that just broke out this year….. KEEP HIM!!!
by gocelts34n7 on Jul 16, 2007 7:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
powe, ray are whatever. get rid of em if you can get any need in return.
by gocelts34n7 on Jul 16, 2007 7:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
odom sucks. if we lose young talent for him it would be terrible…… especially if its gerald, rondo, or al. that would be just horrible…… remember kobe said gerald reminded him of “himself when he was younger”? gerald would break out as a superstar with kobe in la, why not keep him in boston, its obvious the kid is an unbelievable talent and is gonna be an allstar. keep him and rondo with big al no matter what!
by gocelts34n7 on Jul 16, 2007 7:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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