Summer League Recap

I tell you what Gerald Green needs.

Its called College . He shouldve went there without a doubt.

Rondo should take from the Tony Parker book of point guards. http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/Castaway420/tparker.gif

He doesnt attempt to shoot threes and just attacks the basket relentlessly. This obsession with him developing a jumper needs to stop , he can be that effective without it. He just needs a brain and some guidance from our coaching staff.

Good analysis of our roster jeff, i agree with most of it, especially your thoughts on gerald. I love the fact gerald doesnt give up. Sure it may take longer than most, but i still think he will turn into a solid nba pro.

Gerald just needs more time which he’ll have to earn more this year than less as we are going for wins now. Davis looks intriguing. We could do worse then sending in a certified banger unit off the bench in Powe & Davis. Try to kill teams off the glass. Pruitt cannot be the backup point. Theo is supposed to be in Africa. His back must be better? Interesting that according to Bulpett, Celtic Nation killed the KG deal. For everyone down on Ray Allen, how do we know that he wasn’t the best that Ainge could do via trade? Everyone assumes that Ainge is an idiot for making the deal. Maybe O’Neil, AK47 and others weren’t really available unless Jefferson was in the discussion either. Here’s a hunch on who might show up next for a big…Chris Mihm or Vitaly P. Just a guess.

Jeff, your comments on Gabe Pruit were mostly “the party line” and hardly reflective of his SL play. If he’s signed and makes the roster his place is in D league….alot sooner than Brandon Wallace.

While your comments centered on the Celtic’s team, I was disappointed that you omitted some comment on the best performing PG in SL…Yah, I’m referring to Jose Barea who impressed to the degree that we should consider trading for him. He may be our answer to the half court game that doesn’t play to Rondo’s strength.

We’ve already seen Chris Mihm…no defense, poor rebounder unless the ball comes right to him, poor athleticism (no hops) and sometime opportunistic offense (can’t lift and doesn’t shield the ball on put-backs resulting in blocked attempts).. Zero contribution on help defense. Whatever we paid for him, it would be too much.

Varejao would be a much more active player with an upside which Mihm hasn’t got. By now we should be sick of space “fillers” of which Mihm typifies the gendre. As for “P”, it’s too early for jokes this a.m.

I still stand by my words… “Green’s break out year will be next year not this year” Now the question is will it be for us? Also I really like Big B (what I like to call him). If he losses 20 pounds like he wants to, I think he will become a very good 3/4 combo type guy.

Good write up, Jeff, can’t disagree with one word.
As for havlicekstoletheball, Gerald Green isn’t the only one who needs a little college. Gerald should have “gone” to college

Wildblue : how about offering something worthy other than “i love you jeff i want you to have my babies” and that piss poor attempt to bring me down.Do us all a favour and get off your high horse.

I like Pruitt as a defender/shooter, I just didn’t see the point guard in him.

With Respect to Pruitt guys..he reminds me of a “Poor man’s Billup’s” similar in many ways when Billups came into the league…

Give this kid a chance… he may surprise us in a couple of years…

I always give the underdog a chance.

 He reminds me nothing of Billups. Maybe he will.

Well, Gerald can’t go back to college, so I’m wondering if what he needs to develop now is … consistency and a coaching staff that knows how to use him and grow him? Maybe the Celtics do offer all that. I could be wrong.

Gerald needs to play soccer. He chose the wrong sport. He’s not a basketball player.

Pruitt looks better than Delonte was as a rookie, so I expect him to be better as a pro, since he has more skills. I agree he is a 3rd guard right now, but Delonte would be too if we got a vet pg to play behind Rondo.

Love Big Baby. The kid reminds me of Toine a bit with his ballhandling and passing skills. He should be a good fit play with Al a bit because of his ability to get Al the ball in the post.

Powe continues to impress. He hasn’t improved his offensive game though. Still gets most of his points from the foul line and still gets his shots blocked a lot.

Allan Ray — Cut!

He needs repetitions. For anyone to improve, repetitions are a must. The question is, how many will he get? I suspect, with a coach on the hot seat, he will get an opportunity early in the season and he better make the best of it or he might have to wait until the following season.

I’m rerferring to GG in the above post.

It’s almost like Buff Baby’s our 2nd chance to coach Toine better.

There are alot of jokesters here this morning. Did you all actually watch the summer league games?

Gabe Pruitt=Juan Dixon. Delonte West as a rookie was twice the player that Pruitt is. Pruitt has individual skills but lacks BBIQ. He played one good quarter, keyed by a couple of nice defensive plays. The rest of the time he looked utterly lost. He has a nice stroke (so does Juan Dixon) but he has no idea where his shots are. Looks like he’s never run a pick and roll in his life. Barea humiliated him. D-league or trade throw in. He’d be ok for the Lakers in the triangle.

Glenn Davis— Contrary to the party line, he doesn’t need to lose that much weight. I would not want him playing below 280. His bulk is a strength, not a liability. He needs two things: work on a stairmaster or a good old-fashioned jump rope to improve his vertical (somewhere in the 33-34 inch range would be fine), and most importantly, to make quicker decisions with the ball. He dances with the ball, and that jab step move won’t bail him out against quality NBA defenders. If he corrects those two issues, he’s an NBA rotation player right now. Very skilled. In fact, he would make a better point guard than Pruitt.

Powe— Needs a reliable jump shot from the vicinity of the key. That will open up the rest of his offensive game like magic. Powe isn’t that undersized. He’s the same size as Elton Brand, with the same long arms.

Brandon Wallace— Has excellent fundamentals and was almost always in the right place defensively. The problems is that he doesn’t know how to be a small forward on offense, which is understandable since he’s only played the position for a week. The worst thing they could do is put in on the end of an NBA bench. Either play him 15-20 minutes a night or let him develop in the D-league.

Gerald Green- Made some progress defensively but his offense has regressed. What was he doing all Summer? One thing Gerald has to do is actually pass the ball once in awhile. One reason that he struggles on offense is the defenders know that he never, ever gives up the rock and they just collapse on him.

Rondo— Can’t run a half-court offense. Otherwise, he’s NBA ready. His shot doesn’t bother me (I thought his mechanics looked much better than last year) but his reluctance to take it does. When they give you an open 17 footer, take it.

Alan Ray— Waive him, already.

There was no one else on the Summer league roster worth discussing.

I know it’s early (really early), and I may regret this statement later, but who else here sees more potential in Big Baby that Yi??? If so, good work Danny…

I realize Ainge isn’t reading this blog looking for tips, but I agree with moskqq’s proposal: let’s trade for Jose Barea and shore up our point guard position (sending Pruitt to the D-league). Apparently, he was only the third string pg for Dallas last year, but he looked sharp to me.

I’d trade Gerald Green for him without batting an eye.

By the way, if Yi’s stock has really dropped due to his summer league appearance, then I’d be happy to send Gerald Green and maybe Gomes to Milwaukee for Yi in a trade.

(Okay, I’m willing to send Green anywhere for anything.)

Po, I take it you know how to read? I said that Big Baby reminds me of Toine “a BIT because of his ballhandling and passing skills” BUT THAT’S IT. Geez!

Mosqkk, when you aren’t offering much $$ you pick from the bottom of the barrel. Trust me, I would rather see us get someone else too. Maybe we could expand your Dallas trade idea to include Pops-Mensa or Diop. Probably dreaming there too! LOL

Come this season, we are probably going to get good but very small contributions from Powe, Big Baby, Wallace, etc.

These are going to be nice small contributions but in the scheme of things don’t bring us significantly closer to banner #17.

Unless this franchise makes the moves necessary to legitimately compete for a title, we will be stuck with accepting baby strides from Big Baby and others that won’t be near enough for #17.

im confused with most peoples thoughts on gerald. every wants him to grow up and work on his game. well wasnt that what he showed in summer leagues. didnt anyone notice most of his layups and drives where made with his left hand? didnt anyone notice how he moved the ball around and mostly took open jumpers? didnt anyone notice how much muscle he put on since the end of the season?

to me he looked like he was playing with handcuffs on. like the coaches said he needs to develop a left hand. anyone notice he was dribbling the ball down court with his left hand. sure it was out of control but he was working on it. this may have been the celtics way of showing gerald he is only as good as his faults. he cannot be that superstar if his faults are to many. if he doesnt have the confidence with the weakest parts of his game then he will never reach his potential.

if anything his “body language” as most people called it showed me someone who realized his game needs improvment. the worst thing that could have happened to gerald was he drops 20 a game and then gets little playing time during the season. now when gerald is fighting for minutes he knows why. none of us should be worried about his shot and should be hoping his struggles against lower quality opponents was a blessing in disguise.

its far to often we give up on players early in there career when that player isnt the “it” player right away. would we be in this state if our current lineup looked like this,

billups
joe johnson
pierce
walker
(fill in),

of course not. so what caused us not having that line up? simply put impatience. i would rather hold onto gerald at a small price now then look back thinking wow imagine if we had gerald still paired with jefferson. gerald is short change right now and he is worth the cash and time, even if he is the 15 man on the roster. i would rather hold onto him and see what he becomes rather then give him up for a aging vet who will not want to be here 1-2 years from now. when gerald commands big bucks and hasnt shown any more improvment worth it or we can get a very important piece for a chip run only then is it worth trading gerald.

i know in boston where patience isnt a fun word anymore but give the kid some or we might end up looking back wishing we had.

I tell you what Gerald Green needs.

Its called College . He shouldve went there without a doubt.

well said

As any coach will tell you, there is nothing easier to defend than a player who never gives up the ball. You cal put all 5 defenders on that player. You can cut off his path to the basket and smother him.

Gerald Green never gives up the ball. Never. If he had even one assist in the 5 summer league games, I don’t remember it (and I watched all 20 quarters).

So it’s no surprise that Gerald Green barely shot 30%. Almost every shot was a difficult shot and a fully-defended shot. Gerald’s unwillingness and/or inability to pass is a major flaw in his game that becomes more evident with each passing year. He’s not playing solo in his driveway any more.

I’m glad there’re yet those on this blog who still think Gerald Green has value… because it encourages me to hope there’re still NBA general managers who also believe the same. And I’m truly hoping Ainge can locate one of these guys, and trade Green for something of value.

There is a problem with giving extended minutes to GG when his level of play hasn’t changed much in two years. The alternative is to determine which of our guys is giving a BETTER return on PT invested.

For example, has Allan Ray improved much since last year? What position is he being groomed for and what progress has he made acclimating to that position? Are we WASTING PT WITHOUT getting improvement? Is his lack of progress that much different than Telfair or GG?

The problem with continually investing PT without a return on that investment is that we want to win sooner rather than later and we don’t have the luxury of waiting indefinitely!

Brick; Your take on SL was right on the money with but one possible exception…Big Baby won’t lose significant bulk or strength slimming to 270 lbs. rather than his present 290 lbs. but he’ll likely get more lift and quickness if he’s 20 lbs. lighter. It has worked for Gomes and in reverse fashion increased lbs. slowed Paul Pierce’s game last year.

Big Baby looked pretty good , but he’d be a lot better 25 lbs lighter. Quicker, faster, more explosive, better endurance. 265-270 is plenty big enough for him.

Pruitt is a 21 year old rookie who looked OK for a 2nd rounder. I would not be surprised if he became the equal of DWest, but he’s currently behind him 3 years. But I liked West and will him.

Powe is a beast and its fun to watch such fierceness for rebounds. He may get blocked now and then, but he gets to the line. He must really wear people down.

After trading for Allen, something else has got to happen to justify it. I’m looking for someone of Powe/Davis/Gomes/Scal to go with Green for another big.

mcpu40, I’m not trying to bash Green or be negative here. I’ve just come to the assessment, perhaps belatedly, that Green will never be a significant contributor to the Celtics (or anyone else).

Obviously, being a slam dunk champion counts for nothing in actual games (which, I’m confident you know). And the fact that his minutes went up, and correspondingly, his points, simply means the Celtics were playing him more (in a throw away season) in the hopes of seeing him blossom. Well, it didn’t happen then, and he embarrassed himself in the summer league. So I’ve seen enough.

Hey, I wish the kid well, and hoped he saved a lot of his money. But if I’m the Celtics, I trade him today for whatever I can get for him.

And sure, I could be wrong about Green. I’m still kicking myself for having once written, early last season, that I was ready (on that particular day) to give up on Tony Allen.

Absolutely, Green was blessed with incredible athletic talent, and I don’t fault Ainge for having drafted him. But (IMHO) it was a gamble that won’t pay off. So I’m for trading him now, and not for waiting another year to hear everyone saying the typical “it’s time for him to step up” and “this is his make-or-break year.”

VT Bill said:

"Big Baby looked pretty good , but he’d be a lot better 25 lbs lighter. Quicker, faster, more explosive, better endurance. 265-270 is plenty big enough for him.’

Nah, I want him at 280. They can change fat to muscle, but I want him to retain that bulk. Why turn a unique player into just another power forward?

How good would Charles Barkley have been at 6-6, 220? It was the bulk- plus the ability to move that bulk with surprising quickness- that make Barkley great. It gave him the ability to carve out space and separate from defenders.
 

I pay little attention to individual stats. As you know, it’s not how much you score as an individual, it’s how much your team scores in comparison to its opponents.

For instance, one might boast that a player has few turnovers. However, if he typically fails to move the ball quickly, or to the right players, he might be hurting his team on a consistent basis. And in the summer league, I easily saw far better ball movement out of Brandon Wallace than I’ve ever seen from Gerald Green.

Perhaps it’s time to ask, how much more do you need to see of Green? If you wait until everyone and his uncle understands that the kid can’t cut it, what possible trade value will he have at that point?

Brick…give up a lost cause while you’re ahead…It isn’t “bulk” that makes a player unique (ala your reference to Charles Barkley/ Big Baby) but rather God-given talent, determination and a high BBIQ that makes them unique. There are numerous examples of players with too much bulk that “ate themselves” out of the NBA.

I totally agree with No Kidding when he cites “stats” as a very misleading indicator of a player’s worth. In the case of GG the stats quoted are OFFENSIVE stats and we all know that there is more to basketball than offense. No Kidding cited a better indicator of a player’s value…does he make his team better? As Brick already pointed out, GG is a solo performer who only looks to his own offense (er, stats), doesn’t distribute, rarely rebounds according to his talent level, is a rather poor defender for his talent level and makes even poor decisions on offense.

Gerald has good individual skills. He just has to learn the game of basketball. He’s like the QB who can rifle the football through a swinging inner tube from 50 yards away with perfect accuracy, but he has no idea what to do with real live receivers, defensive backs or a pass rush.

Is Gerald being coached properly? I didn’t hear anyone shouting “swing the ball” when Gerald got it. Of course, it was hard to hear anything over Rick Kamla’s inane prattle.

Maybe Gerald needs to be strapped to a seat in the film room and forced to watch until he gains some understanding of the word “teammate.”

Who did all that coaching of Bird, McHale, Parrish, and DJ? You can strap Gerald in a film room and talk yourself blue in the face. It won’t work. He’s lacking in something you don’t need to win dunk contests.

man i laughed when people where saying the same b.s. about joe johnson, al jeffreson, and billups. i stated they where all players and we would regret trading all of them. now look where we are at. who are we gonna get for gerald without giving up so much more? is a vet who will cost more and has no upside worth a trade? if your answers where trade gerald and yes a vet would be worth it then you should call Ainge and talk to him about a book called 101 ways to ruin the celtics.

im sorry but like my last post stated trading gerald is just a stupid option unless its gonna gets us a major piece. people always compare him with mcgrady and then those other people come out and say no way. well the # are on pace and even slightly better. some say mcgrady was better and played good D. well those people are very wrong and even mcgrady himself has said otherwise. scouts said 3-4 years before the payoff and that is a major reason why he slipped. the scouts have been right on the money with gerald so far so why does anyone doubt them now.

guess its just the same cold feet that got billups (allstar), joe johnson (allstar), and jefferson (who minny is willing to trade K.G. for so that should say what g.m.s think about his game) shipped out of town. man i cant wait till he pans out and all the same people pull what they did with al jefferson. you know the “oh i was sure about him the whole time” or “i knew we had to just be patient with him and he would work out”. there was maybe less then 1% of those types on this forum and the last one but nobody would guess that if they just joind the forum today.

Who knows about GG? He could turn out to be very good, or to be a total bust. It’s too early to tell.

I don’t believe in the theory that a player must develop by year 3, particularly a player coming right out of HS. I heard Rick Kamla spouting that bullcrap and it’s just wrong. It took Jermaine O’Neal 5 years. It took Billups 5 years, and Billups had 2 years of college.

The jury is still out on quite a few players from Gerald’s class, including Martell Webster, Channing Frye, Yaroslav Korolev, Rashad McCants and Antoine Wright, all of whom were drafted ahead of Gerald.

If only we had held onto Kedrick Brown, Jiri Welsch, and Marcus Banks…

I watched every game last year and every summer league game and I am yet to see where GG will become a player. Yes, he is a kid, but so was Garnett, Kobe and Al. We all saw promise from these guys, but I have yet to see GG show that he understands “the game”. The last 2 summer league games, he was tossing up crap from everywhere, like he was Kobe. He either cannot or will not play defense and he sure does not get what the term DEFENSE means. If he can be dealt for something that will help us now, go for it.

Gerald’s not worth keeping, but his trade value continues to shrink.

I don’t think Davis needs to lose 20 lbs. He knows how to use his weight to his advantage down on the blocks. Also, it’s not like we’ll be asking him to play 30 – 35 minutes per game. Barring any deals, I still think it will be interesting to see how playing time is divided between Powe, Scal and Davis.

Some people love to point out that the best trades can be the ones you don’t make. Then they point to Billups and Joe Johnson.

Well okay. But by the same token, the worst trades can also be the ones you don’t make. And that also goes for exorbitant resignings that some teams unwisely make.

You pay your money and you take your chance. (And what the heck, we’re just kicking things around here.)

My parents named me Brian, but the posters call me Veal,
I’m a player void of talent and a man without appeal.
Our coach, astute Doc Rivers, is a coach without a clue,
He gazes up and down the bench, then howls: “Hey, you and you.” (more to follow)

bboncorr26 said:
  “man i laughed when people where saying the same b.s. about joe johnson, al jeffreson, and billups. i stated they where all players and we would regret trading all of them.”

1. When were peaople calling for trades of Johnson and Billups? Show me any evidence that there was a groundswell of support for trading either of those guys, ever.

Both those guys went midway thru their rookie years. They weren’t even around long enough for any trade talk to swirl. In fact, when each of them was traded, it came largely as a shock to the fan base. Both were showing great promise. Billups was starting, and playing well (he had an off-court incident—rape accusation—that helped push him out, but his play was solid). Johnson had had a couple of big games early in the year that had fans excited. Most fans were upset that O’Brien was idiotically benching him. We weren’t sour on him, but on the fact that he wasn’t playing.

1. Where, exactly, did you state that they would be great players and we would regret trading them. I defy you to show me a Billups-related blog post from 1997, the year billups was traded.

Mcpu40; Sorry, but you just “crossed the line” in your staunch opinion poll on GG. Did you actually think that you can make us BELIEVE that among other things…that GG is a “sponge” when it comes to absorbing INFORMATION? (quote…“But he’s a kid and a sponge”)

Easy guys, it’s only Monday.

Gerald Green is just a dummy.

There were times last year towards the end that I felt GG was filling almost the exact same role that PP was. It looked like he could be substituted for Pierce and that given his minutes, could produce the same way. The major issue was the free throw attempts and the D not being equal. Now that his D is better, and he is starting to drive to the hole and get to the line, maybe it wouldn’t be a big deal to trade PP at the trading deadline if we aren’t going anywhere. Then again, he would follow that game up with a bad one and I would be glad we still had Pierce.

You give GG 38 min a game and direct him to go to the basket and he is PP with more hops. Provided he listens…

Is GG any more of a dimwit than Pierce? Not really. Pierce just has a more fluid game and a body more suited for driving to the hoop and rebounding. For the vast majority of NBA players, I think it comes down to coaching, more than innate intelligence or BBall I.Q. Excepting, of course, the truly imaginative PG’s like Kidd, Nash and CP3, or an occasional Tim Duncan type for whom coaching could not screw up his game. In most cases, these guys come into the league as raw talents who need to be put into a system that maximizes their ability/talent without exposing too many of their weaknesses.

Pierce had the advantage of being coached by OB during the formative years of his career. He worked hard on D (remember that?) and profitted on offense by making slightly fewer stupid choices than Antoine. GG, on the other hand, is the unhappy product of Doc Rivers and his many mixed messages. Is there any doubt he was given the kedrick brown summer league mandate (ie: “go dominate”)? So he goes to the summer league with something to prove, presses, looks idiotic, takes too many shots, etc. I wouldn’t put too much stock into it. The fact remains he’s a good shooter and a great athlete who will never be a dominant NBA superstar. If we hang onto him for a couple more years and actually expose him to some competent coaching, perhaps he could blossom into a serviceable 6th man/bench scorer, and frankly, that’s good enough for me.

Pierce had the advantage of having played for Roy Williams for three years at Kansas.

As for GG, now is not the time to trade him, when his value is low. Wait until he drops 30 on someone (which he will) and then trade him.

mcpu40…. “how did I cross the line”?…The line referred to was the LINE OF CREDIBILITY. Many if not most 21 year old kids are “sponges” when it comes to learning new knowledge but in GG case that doesn’t appear to be the case.

I guess I’m just upset to see so much potential languishing before my eyes and disappointed that our “savior” was not a real Santa Claus. Thus if the Gimble’s Santa is not the real deal I’m ready to try Macy’s version.

To explain further, GG simply makes the same mistakes over and over so I wonder if he’s learning deficient (he did poorly in school) or if he’s too stubborn or resistant to change.

The thing about intelligence, is that there’re different kinds. Who knows, despite appearances, maybe Gerald Green is a “Rainman”-like idiot savant, who can visually see angles developing on a basketball court long before the rest of us (though I doubt it). And for all I know, maybe he fills his spare time listening to Bach and doing the Times crossword puzzle.

For that matter, Bird was once thought to be a moron. And Moses Malone… well… he was a damn fine player.

no kidding,
What you’re saying is true: Stupid people can be very “intelligent” basketball players (ever heard Magic Johnson speak?), and very smart (book smart) people can be idiots on the court (Michael Oliwikandi is widely regarded as one of the most intelligent individuals in the league).

George Meyer,
I don’t think playing for OB is an advantage. That team played well one year, but OB was terrible in terms of player development. He hated playing young guys and had no patience to teach—PLUS, it was during OB’s reign when Toine’s and Pierce’s bad habits were allowed to fester and grow and become permanently engrained.

VT Bill said:

Powe is a beast and its fun to watch such fierceness for rebounds. He may get blocked now and then, but he gets to the line. He must really wear people down.

 “He must really wear people down”.

Great point!

mcpu40; It’s not me who isn’t “getting it” but you. GG has continued to make the same mistakes since he came into the league. Let’s not diminish the fact that he already is 21 and old enough to know better. You can make EXCUSES for lack of intelligence when a child is less than 7 years old but you lose credibility when you use the same tactic at 21.

Furthermore, unless you have a crystal ball you don’t know anymore about GG’s future than the rest of us bloggers. You choose to be an optimist because you see GG’s potential. I choose to be a realist because he has yet to demonstrate that he can harness and channel that potential. You are willing to wait indefinitely for his development, I am not.

IMO you either have it or you don’t. The way to tell the difference is to look for real progress. I only see wasted “potential”.