There's No Yi In Milwaukee

just curious because i have no spectrum on it, but is there a large chinese community in houston?

yi is a project.did not look like he was nba-ready in the sl. does not give us rebounding or defense.

I think the first question is do we want to add more youth now? OR can we trade youth we have now that will not be a factor to the team this year or be critical as trade chip to reach other deals?

I don’t see him paying dividends for 3-4 years from now, so patience for the maybe impact player or stay the more immediate course?

i do not see why a person should be told to “leave” because they actually say a system is somehow flawed. i dont see how saying “others have control, others have set up a system. so, i must follow the wishes of those with wealth and power since they created the system” makes any sense. simply because someone can make the rules does not make the rules fair or valid. nope. dont agree that yi should “leave” because he objects to the nba system. if yi and the cba can stand up to the nba, so be it.

but more germane to the topic… i hope the celtics can convince milwaukee to trade them the rights. but i dont think they celtics will top an offer from golden state…but i can hope. :)

Best part of the article was this:

“Chen expressed concern that Yi would have trouble getting playing time with the Bucks, whose squad boasts Australian 7-footer Andrew Bogut and a number of other tall young players.”

Yi would have trouble getting playing time with the Bucks? You mean this supposed amazing talent who the Bucks used the 5th pick in a loaded draft on is going to have trouble getting playing time over the following crop of frontcourt players that Milwaukee boasts…

Andrew Bogut
Charlie Villanueva
Dan Gadzuric
Ersan Ilyasova
Damir Markota
David Noel
Ruben Patterson
Jared Reiner
Brian Skinner

Really? This is a concern?

Wow. How many people reading this post couldn’t get solid playing time in the Bucks frontcourt?

While I wish there was no draft at all and I don’t mind when players set their terms — the way Yi is doing it is a joke and it smells of something between ignorant, unbeneficial selfishness and a rejection of reality.

Yi isn’t the first guy refusing to play for the team that drafted him. He gave them fair warning. I still think he has incredible upside and size, and we should try to swing a deal to grab him. We are building not just for today, but for tomorrow as well.

We’ve got more swing man ‘chips’ then we need. Let’s offer Milwaukee a package for Yi. I’d start with an offer of Gomes and Green.

  I’m not competent to adjudge Yi’s NBA skill level or potential. In fact, I’ve never seen him play.

BUT!

I doubt very much he is the one making the decisions. And it is very possible his agent is not either. Politics are a BIG part of anything China does and I think it very likely that the ‘big boys in the smoke filled back room’ are the ones calling the shots.

The part I’m most interested in is the bit about Wang Zhizhi possibly returning to the NBA — because two Eastern Conference teams are preparing offers. Well, we’re in the Eastern Conference. And we need a center, ideally one who can hit the open jump-shot. Hmmm…

The Bucks can only blame themselves for this. They had to know it was coming. They have even less leverage than the Grizz had with Francis because Yi can always go back and play in China. While it is clearly disturbing that Yi is being “handled” so much that the Chinese government wants him only on particular teams, you just can’t risk a high pick on a foreign player with the option to refuse to report – who can just play in another league.

Overall, just a stupid gamble on the Bucks part. Now they don’t even have good leverage in a trade because other teams know they have to trade him.

So what’s the big thing about Yi’s people saying they don’t want him in Milwaukee? You make your deal going in the door, and your first one’s often the most important one (since everything follows from it). Heck, I learned that lesson myself the hard way at Yi’s age. Nobody has a gun to their head here.

Yi’s trying to enter the NBA (and not some draft system). He’s free to try to get the best situation he can for himself. It’s the American way. The fact is, he has other options besides the NBA, and that improves his bargaining position. To be angry with him for that is like being angry at him for being tall.

Maybe we can send him out west to work as coolie on the railroads.

Question:

Say Yi goes back to China. Then what? When would he be eligible to enter the draft again, if at all? Do the Bucks still hold his rights (kind of like stashing a player overseas for a year or two after he’s been drafted)?

Also, why didn’t Yi play for Milwaukee during summer league? I understand he also plays for Team China and obviously was advised not to play for the Bucks, but doesn’t the Bucks’ organization and ownership have a say in this? And what does the league think about the situation? It’s a slap in the face to let him play in a league-sanctioned event when he won’t even acknowledge his new team.

When one speaks of Yi slapping some organization in the face, they’re letting their emotions carry them away. This is professional basketball we’re talking about. And business is business.

Yes, his NBA rights are held by the Bucks in perpetuity (I believe) pending any other agreement. However, Yi’s not under contract to them. For instance, Glenn Davis and Gabe Pruitt are not under contract, presently, to the Celtics, even though they played on their summer team. Yi was free to play with any non-NBA team that the NBA allowed to play in its sanctioned summer league.

If I am the Bucks, why put the organization in this position. Did they do their reseach? Did they reach out to Yi before drafting him to determine the likehood of his willingness to join the Bucks? It seems to me that the Bucks had other choices/leverage with this pick. Just because the Bucks rated Yi as the third best prospect doesn’t mean he should be the person automatically chosen. There are other factors including whether he wants to play there. He wouldn’t work out for them. Isn’ that a loud enought statement by Yi that he is not coming to the Bucks. Chose a player who wants to be there. It makes life much easier.

While I think the Chinese government (and, by extension,Yi) is completely in the wrong, draft picks refusing to play is not without precedent.

In 199, Steve Francis forced a trade to Houston.
In 1989, Danny Ferry went to Italy for 2 years to avoid playing for the Clippers.
In 1981, Kiki Vandeweghe refused to play for Dallas.

But the big one that stands out in my mind: 1993. John friggin’ Barry. Complete A-hole refused to play for the Celtics and forced a trade to …
Milwaukee!

Jeff you and your pals do such a great job on this blog that it feels like home to all us Celtics fans – thus our blog! ;D

Cousin It, you might not like it, but why is it ‘wrong’ for any player to try to arrange it to go to one NBA team as opposed to another?

Fans are free to root for who they choose. Teams are free to sign whoever they can get. Why should players not be free to make whatever deal they can?

mcpu40, check your anger in regards to Yi himself. For all you know, it’s his people, and not him, making this decision. You do realize his home country has a different political system than ours right? So who are you angry with?

no kidding.

First of all, your corrallary between players and fans is fallacious.

Secondly, teams are not “free to sign whoever they want.” If they were, there would be a bidding war for Greg Oden. There are clear and distinct rules for player singings. Teams cannot sign Oden because he was drafted by Portland, and the relationship also works in reverse: Oden cannot sign elsewhere because (bammo) Portland drafted him. Guess what? Same goes for Yi.

I’d rather not have to explain the structure of the NBA to you, but …

The NBA is an association of franchises that mutually support a central organization for the purpose of maximizing revenue and ensuring some level of equity in terms of player acquisition and other issues.

One of those means is the NBA draft. That draft is a contract between prospective players and teams that have paid huge amounts of money to be protected by NBA bylaws. When a player decides to play in the NBA, he tacitly agrees to abide by those bylaws (once he signs a contract, the agreement is explicit).

When a player declares himself “eligible” for the draft, he is implicitly agreeing to abide by the outcome of the draft.

Only after a player has fulfilled his initial commitment to the team that drafted him is he awarded with free agency. That’s the way the NBA is set up. It is set up that way to protect the enormous investments owners make. It provides structure and order. It is a good thing. It ensures that the capitalists who take all the financial risks, the owners, have some level of control.

While Yi has a right to go back on that agreement, it is wrong. To put it in lay terms, it is welching on his agreement. He can become a free agent latyer … eventually, but he has to first fulfill his draft commitment.

mcpu40,
How unamerican of you! This is how capitalism works, it’s me-first and the the only person you look out for is #1. Is it fair for Asante Samuels or any other football player under contract to hold out during the season? The answer is if you can better serve your interests by doing so than yes. If you want a more restrictive system maybe YOU should go to China. And frankly if we were in the situation the Bucks are in I would mad at Ainge for letting his ego get in the way of doing what’s best for the team.

First off, mcpu40, maybe you can say it enough.

But for the heck of it, let’s try an experiment. Let’s say you, mcpu40, have decided you might want to blog on a NBA-oriented website. But to do so, you first have to submit yourself (user name, email address and so forth) to an NBA clearinghouse. And let’s further imagine that you were willing to make such a submission.

At that point, hypothetically, the NBA emails you and says “Welcome mcpu40 to the NBA blogging community! Your blogging rights have been assigned to the LA Clipper’s website, CrazyClipperNuts.com. Please login at your earliest convenience.”

Now should I, as a NBA fan, be angry if you decide that you’d rather blog at a different site, and refuse to report to the CrazyClipperNuts site? Should you be made an example of? Do we need to get you a coolie hat and send you off to work on the railroads?

When would he be eligible to enter the draft again, if at all?

I keep reading that if he doesn’t play professionally for one year (see: he’s got a national team on the backburner), he is back in the draft in 2008. He has a fallback plan.

Gee Cousin It, when I wrote that teams should be free to sign whoever they want, I guess I assumed any sensible person would understand that meant “whoever they want that they’re free to pursue.” I’m sorry you thought it was necessary to develop the concept for me.

But since you’re in a legalistic mode of thinking, do you really believe the “draft is a contract between prospective players and… (NBA) teams”? All Yi has done, as a capitalist himself, and protecting his own enormous personal investment, is to place himself in a position to be drafted. He’s contracted for no other obligations. He’s welched on nothing, and has done no ‘wrong’.

I personally am eligible to offer my services to many clients that I have communicated with. Am I under contract to all of them?

Let’s

Careful now, mcpu40. I’ve got a straw hat out in the garage, and you may be ticking off David Stern.

Wow Mcpu40, this is twice I’ve made a comment to you in jest that you have turned around and gone over the deep end about. Between you and me, I watch and play basketball because I enjoy it. I like the celtics and enjoy talking about possible moves they can make but if talking about basketball ever got to the point that i was taking it so seriously that i was making threats to people and giving myself an ulcer I’d probably take a vacation from it for a while.

no kidding,

Your anologies are all fallacious. You are trying to compare things like blogging to the NBA, which does—even if you choose to pretend it doesn’t—operate based on very strict and well-defined rules.

Any “sensible person” knows that NBA teams cannot pursue whoever they want. They can only persue free agents. Big difference.

Even comparisons to the NFL are off base because the NFL collective bargaining agreement is vastly different. For example, NFL teams can cut players under contract; NBA teams cannot.

I don’t think it’s possible to have a discussion with you on this issue because you are ignoring the basic fact that the NBA is organized, first and foremost, to protect the finincial interests of franchises and their owners.

Don’t know if you’ve ever studied economics, but being an employee (player) does not make someone a capitalist. INVESTING capital does. The owners are the only true capitalists in this situation. It’s a basic concept. John Locke. Yi is not a capitalist. He is a worker, until or unless he risks his wealth to become an onwer of something.

By the way, Yi, as a member of the Chinese national team, is a card-carrying member of the communist party. Fact, brother. Look it up.

Was Yi compelled to enter the draft or was it done to get a lottery contract? The Celtics just signed an undrafted free agent although I assume Wallace had entered the draft. Was there anything stoping Yi from waiting untill after the draft and then going to a taem he was interrested in and trying to work out a deal? Just asking.

What would it cost to aquire Yi?

It’s about leverage. Yi has it. The Bucks don’t. The Bucks didn’t do their homework on this one. The Chicoms are used to getting their way. Espcecially in matters Chinese.

I’d trade Gerald for Yi if the Bucks are at all interested.

Cousin It,

I hate to be disagreeable with you, since you typically make interesting comments (as does mcpu40). But I’ll say a bit here, and then no more.

So all my analogies are fallacious? All of them? Anyone who routinely attempts to score cheap debating points by jumping at hyperbole, should avoid employing such a word as “all.”

And I’m sorry you’re still having a hard time “sensibly” understanding my expression that “teams should be free to sign… whoever they want to that they’re free to pursue." Do you really imagine anyone here doesn’t understand the difference between draftees and free agents? Surely it can’t be your mission in life to go about pointing out the obvious?

As for the study of economics, actually, I have done a bit of it; mostly adhering to Friedrich von Hayek and the Austrian School of thinking. To my way of thinking, an investment of one’s time is a type of capitalistic investment. And maybe even you’d agree that Yi has probably invested a lot of his time in developing his basketball skills.

Now if you want to attempt puff the NBA into some awe inspiring business, that’s fine. But in this situation, they’re only one party to a possible agreement – Yi is the other. They’re equally free to enter into a contract or not to. Of course, if you really believe Yi is already under some obligation to play for the Bucks, why don’t you contact them and explain how you can make a court enforce that obligation?

As for whatever card Yi might be carrying in his wallet, I’m quite uninterested in the matter. It doesn’t necessarily (I put that last word in just for you) prevent him from attempting to pursue his own best interests with American business enterprises. And I suspect, if you were him, you might be carrying the same card. I know I would. I have mouths to feed.

no kidding,
I didn’t mean all of your anologies on this blog are fallacious, but the ones you’ve used in this discussion are. Apples and oranges, man.

“But in this situation, they’re only one party to a possible agreement – Yi is the other. They’re equally free to enter into a contract or not to. Of course, if you really believe Yi is already under some obligation to play for the Bucks, why don’t you contact them and explain how you can make a court enforce that obligation?”

No court can make him play for the Bucks. That has never been the issue. There are 3 issues here:

1) If Yi does want to play in the NBA, the Bucks own his rights. Period. The fact is incontrovertable. He CANNOT sign with another team without fulfilling that commitment. And THAT would be enforceable in a court. So, if he really doesn’t weant to play in Milwaukee, he can stay in China, go to Europe … whatever. But he can’t play for another NBA team without Milwaukee getting compensation. Fact.

2) If you remember, the word I used was “wrong,” not “illegal.” I never brought up courts of law. I think what he and his handlers are doing is unethical. Big difference.

3) What it boils down to is a simple question: If draftees are free to pick and choose who they play for, as you are proposing, why bother having a draft?

The draft exists for a reason: to assign player rights to teams. If players are free to ignore where they are drafted, the entire system is meaningless. It’s that simple.

Bidder225,

Yi could only do that if he declared for the draft and went undrafted….which he didnt. If Yi had any common sense (which he might but just isnt displaying it) he would sign with the bucks and put his work in, like everybody else. I dont see too many people becoming fans of his after this little stunt he’s trying to pull. Chances are he wont sign and he’ll enter the draft again next year and i really really hope he slides cause people are scared to draft him (and i’d also like to see the buck draft him again….now that would be funny)

Bidder225,
The answer to your question: Every prospective NBA player, whether American or foriegn-born, must declare himself (or herself) eligible for the draft.

This is intended to provide some structure and equity for the process of player acquistion. Unlike the system no kidding is proposing (just kidding, no kidding!).

Section 1. Player Eligibility.
(a) No player may sign a Contract or play in the NBA unless he has been eligible for selection in at least one (1) NBA Draft. No player shall be eligible for selection in more than two (2) NBA Drafts.

((a) A Team that drafts a player shall, during the period from the date of such NBA Draft (hereinafter, the “Initial Draft”) to the date of the next Draft (hereinafter, the “Subsequent Draft”), be the only Team with which such player may negotiate or sign a Player Contract, provided that, on or before the July 15 immediately following the Initial Draft (for a First Round Pick), or in the two (2) weeks before the September 5 immediately following the Initial Draft (for a Second Round Pick), such Team has made a Required Tender to such player. If a Team has made a Required Tender to such a player and the player has not signed a Player Contract within the period between the Initial Draft and the Subsequent Draft, the Team that drafted the player shall lose its exclusive right to negotiate with the player and the player will then be eligible for selection in the Subsequent Draft.

Cousin It,

Gosh, and I was going to say no more… (sigh).

I really hope you’ve trotted out all of your debating points, because I don’t have all afternoon to chase you around the barn (especially if you’re going to pull out the boldface font). But let’s take your final three points in order.

1) Sure, no one questions that the Bucks owns Yi’s draft rights. No one has ever said different. Certainly not I. So why did you mention it?

2) I’m well aware you used the word “wrong” as opposed to “illegal.” If you check back on the thread, you’ll see where I specifically asked you how Yi was in the “wrong” here? Clearly, I was asking you in what way was he being wrong in the sense of being morally wrong, as opposed to legally.

3) I’ve made no argument against having a draft. But as you know, simply because one has entered the draft, and been drafted, it doesn’t follow this person has any obligation to sign with the team that drafts him. I say it’s not immoral to say, yes, I’ve been drafted by this team, but unless my draft rights are traded to another team that’s agreeable to me, I will withhold my services. But apparently you think such a stance is immoral (and I asked you why?), and renders the draft system meaningless (another nonsequiter).

Now go ahead, and have the last word.

You really have to put all the bluster and outrage aside for a minute. It certainly is less than admirable for Yi to hold out against the Bucks, but the reality is that’s what he is doing.

The Bucks KNEW he did not want to play for them. They took a gamble and its biting them in the a**.

Forget about who’s right and who’s wrong. This is business and the Bucks made a huge business blunder.

no kidding,
I don’t want the last word. To be honest with you, I had no idea, until IowaGuy mentioned it above, that players could reenter the next sunsequent draft if unhappy with where they were drafted. So, since Yi warned Milwaukee about this, I change my stance. Let him reenter next year. Screw Milwaukee. All is right and good.

To me, it’s pretty simple.

Yi should be free to do what he wants for himself. And I don’t see anything wrong about him doing it. If he would rather play in China then play for the Bucks, then he can go ahead and do it.

I find it somewhat unfortunate that it appears that he is actually not free to do what he wants for himself; instead, he is obligated to do what the Chinese government thinks is best for him.

Finally, regardless of whose will it is that Yi not play for the Bucks, the NBA is also free to do what’s in its best interest. They could institute a lifetime ban on Yi from ever playing in the NBA, and I would have no quarrel with that. They could institute a ban on any future Chinese players entering the draft — such a move would appear to be a bit jingoistic, but if the Chinese government is subverting the NBA draft it’s not crazy to disallow any future players who are subject to Chinese control.

It doesn’t, however, seem a situation that deserves anger (unless, I suppose, I were a Bucks fan, in which case I might be as angry with the GM as with the Chinese gov’t). One party in the dispute is exercising his right to refuse to enter a contract; the other party is free to institute sanctions if they see fit. I guarantee you that blustering about what’s right and wrong, and being angry, won’t convince China to let Yi play for Milwaukee; but there might be other forms of leverage that will convince them.

dslack said:

“Finally, regardless of whose will it is that Yi not play for the Bucks, the NBA is also free to do what’s in its best interest. They could institute a lifetime ban on Yi from ever playing in the NBA, and I would have no quarrel with that. They could institute a ban on any future Chinese players entering the draft — such a move would appear to be a bit jingoistic, but if the Chinese government is subverting the NBA draft it’s not crazy to disallow any future players who are subject to Chinese control.”

Ban on Chinese players? It’s more than a bit jingoistic – it’s downright extreme. Neither Steve Francis nor Danny Ferry got this kind of reaction.

From the reactions on this site, apparently being able to dictate where you want to play a sport is the worst thing ever. Yet John Elway is an American icon. I don’t see what the problem here is – he doesn’t feel comfortable, or his people don’t feel comfortable with him playing in Milwaukee. The people saying that entering the draft means you implicitly agree to joining the team you’re drafted by – that’s false. You implicitly agree to the understanding that the team that drafts you is the only team that can sign you. That is ALL. I don’t know where entering the NBA Draft somehow becomes signing away 3 years of your life to play at a place you don’t want. Yi’s reasons for not wanting to be in Milwaukee are irrelevant – the point is that he has no obligation to be there. Would you all be vehemently hating him and his camp if he took a break from basketball for a year?

I’m don’t know if you all recall Fran Vazquez, who the Magic drafted in 2005. He declared, didn’t give any intention of not coming (Yi’s camp very obviously said ‘please, no Milwaukee’), and he didn’t come anyways. Are we looking to ban all Spanish players from the NBA? The comments here are progressively more and more xenophobic, it seems…

Look, I’m not advocating a ban on Chinese players. But I think it wouldn’t be crazy.

There’s a huge difference between Fran Vazquez’s situation and Yi’s. Vazquez chose not to come on his own. Yi is not going to Milwaukee because the Chinese government doesn’t want want him to go there. If the NBA wanted to ban all Fran Vazquezs, that would seem unreasonable, but Vazquez has nothing in common with any other Spanish player but country of origin. In contrast, what Yi has in common with other Chinese players is that they are subject to decisions by the Chinese government, and it would be within the NBA’s rights to say to the Chinese government, “If you try to subvert our draft process this way, we won’t take your players.”

Similarly, if the NCAA said that Steve Francis couldn’t go to Vancouver (and had the power to enforce it), the NBA would be within its rights to ban future NCAA players. Of course this example sounds ridiculous, because (1) the NCAA can’t do that, (2) they wouldn’t, and (3) the NBA wouldn’t ban NCAA players. The only reason the NBA would ever consider an idea like I mentioned is that it’s not a big sacrifice (there aren’t an awful lot of Chinese players entering the draft, so they wouldn’t be missing out on a big pool of labor). Even so, I think that it’s highly unlikely that Stern would pull such an extreme move; as I said, it would look jingoistic, and he hopes to have a productive relationship with China in the future.

Correction: I meant to write “If the NBA wanted to ban all Fran Vazquezs, that would NOT seem unreasonable.”

Can someone clarify for me the regulations pertaining to the ages of foreign players in regards to the draft. I believe the rule is you either have to be 19 by the date of the draft to be draft eligible, but isn’t there a maximum age as well after which the player is a free agent? For instance the greek guard we were considering before he signed with CSKA Moscow (or something like that) was a free agent which no team owned the rights to. I bring this up because I just had the thought (and I could be totally off-base) that Yi might next year admit to being 3 years older than previously reported and therefore no longer draft-eligible. Please someone enlighten me!