3 All Stars?

Being such a Jefferson fan, I too can’t wait to see what he’s capable of doing playing with Ray and PP.

But teams can still double him depending on what happens with the center situation and AJ’s growing ability to pass out of the double team.

Al Jefferson wont be surprising teams anymore . This could either be a great year for him or a huge dissapointment.

My only concern is the lack of seeming progress in addressing our issues with team balance. As you pointed out Jeff, we need another low post presence (an impact 4 or 5) and a back-up PG.

There are two ways of addressing these needs, the most obvious is to get seasoned veterans. Perhaps less appealing BUT more attainable is to secure young TALENT at those positions with the proviso that whoever we get has a high BBIQ and has shown indications that he is ready for prime time.

At PG Jose Barea would qualify and the Big most likely would need to come from Europe…again we’re discussing what this team can AFFORD (I base our past lack of signing desirable free agents and restricted free agents on our inability to meet trade/salary demands).

I had hopes that we might be able to pry Varejao from Cleveland but we’ve not heard a whisper about the Celtic’s interest in such a deal).

I still believe that YI, despite his lacklustre performance in SL, has an NBA future but he’ll need 2-3 years of seasoning. I’d be willing to trade Ratliff’s expiring contract and a 1st round pick for him. If we become a much better ballclub in the next two years our draft position wouldn’t be high enough to miss that 1st round choice.

The least desirable course of action would be INACTION since the “clock is ticking” on the advancing careers of Pierce and Ray Allen.

Yi might present an opportunity to add to the team for a player a couple of years away from realizing potential if he can be had at a bargain. No need to trade Theo’s contract for that—-Yi isn’t signed to any money right now and when he does sign it will be for rookie money. If a trade of two of these players would make it work: Green, Gomes, Powe, Telfair, that would be worth it. Milwaukee gets two players on the cheap that can contribute for someone determined not to play for them and had a less-than-spectacular summer league.

I think Al is in a good spot. He’s got a couple of years under his belt and he’s got 2 reliable scorers to work with. He’ll still be doubled on occasion, but then he’ll always have someone to pass to.

Sounds more like Eastern conference roster than a all star list. You must have included 2 dozen guys. The trick is to define who’s an all star now, not what did you used to be like. I hope RAllen and PPierce are on that list.

While we do need another pg and center, I like our roster after the “Big Three” more than the Wizards or Nets respective lots.

the NBA is about your best players and when AL becomes our best player we’ll be dealing…we still need better players and great point play but Pierce has 3-5 yrs left of all-star play and Ray???heck,he’ll shoot jumpers until he’s 40…we could win 50 or lose 50 ,PP&RA are NOT Duncan/Parker or Shaq/Kobe etc…we need a full 8 ala the Pistons to get this done..

Defense is obviously one of our biggest issues. Outside of last season where injuries were our achilles heal, this team hasn’t had that much trouble putting points on the scoreboard.

Obviously roster additions is the easy way to solve our deficiencies on the defensive end, that and a competent coach. However, is it possible for players like Paul, Ray, Al, Gerald, and others to dedicate themselves on the defensive end of the floor? I mean, how long have these guys been playing competitive basketball? Don’t tell me that they aren’t capable of being adequate defenders, both on the ball and on the help side. Playing defense is 99% guts and hard work. Don’t you think a team that finished 2nd from last place who has the potential to make some noise in the eastern conference (at least) would take it upon themselves to play some D and get some wins, respectability, etc?

Just tallying up individual offense isn’t the answer. We need a strong defensive coach and a crack ass’t is our best hope of that for now.

There are a boatload of teams that win 40-50 games in the regular season because they have a potent offense. They’re are quickly bounced in the playoffs because they can’t play play-off style basketball i.e. intense defense and solid half court basketball.

The C’s will have some great offensive explosions next year that will be fun to watch and excite the young fan base – but us “old schoolers” know that its defense that wins big playoff games.

Bring in an assistant coach who can teach this team how to play defense – and then I’ll have some optimism.

Gomes is not terrible and Wyc has and will spend…he’s taken on some bad contracts already and would take KG now and be in tax hell…what has Wyc ever done to make you&Brick think he won’t spend???…he had a nice #5 pick under a rookie scale and took on a overpaid 32 yr old off surgery/RISKY…

It’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Pierce and Allen have played very little defense (at least good defense) throughout their careers. Who is going to guard James, Wade, Carter, Hamilton, Deng, Redd, etc. on the wing? Perhaps Tony Allen. I can see Doc gearing up already for small ball.

The Celtics certainly need to make more moves in order to make some noise. Unfortunately the one they made isn’t what they really needed to do.

T’Bird,the Suns disagree….the Warriors,who beat the top seed, also disagree…more than one way to win if you score 100 every nite but a touch of D would come with vets

To win it all in the next few years you need one of these players, L James, K Bryant, T Duncan, K Garnett, S Nash, D Wade, A Stoudemire.

That’s why when Ping Pong balls didn’t go our way it killed my dreams of winning a few more championships.

IMHO thats why getting RA was a good move. It give us a chance compete in the regular season, make the playoffs and develop our youth and hope DA can pull off (like this will ever happen) a great trade/FA signing or having AJ turn out to be a top 5 NBA talent (I do not see this happening, All star Yes, HOF long shot)so we have a chance at getting maybe just maybe one ring like Pidtons did.

Our concern is HOW money is being spent…IMHO, it’s panic-type, patch-work-style deals that are done in desperation so that great risks are taken…but the net effect is that it empties the cash coffers and strangles our efforts to improve the ballclub.

Our second concern is the lack of consistency in plotting a blueprint for success. The “vision” keeps changing and we’re left with what to do with the “left-overs” of the last plan.

Our third concern, which has amply been addressed, is the lack of sound logic in not placing a high priority on our coaching quality. If Doc was needed more as a people manager than a strategist, Danny should have interceded and insured that Doc’s staff could supply the expertise that he lacked. It’s not too late to begin repairing the damage.

I wonder if our lack of progress in obtaining help at the 1, 4/5 positions is due to lack of resolve on what we need….which players would be ideal…what costs justify the acquisitions…or whether this team has been paralysed because of the certain knowledge that the coaching staff will soon be replaced and the new regime should have input on the pieces/players needed.

The Celtics are one of 3 teams with 2 franchise players. Miami has Wade and Shaq which trumps our 2. NJ has Kidd who is no longer the player he was and Carter who is somewhat a fraud. Washington has Arenas. Jamison and Butler are potential all stars but they are not at the same level as Arenas, Pierce and Allen. Detroit has Billups and Hamilton and Rasheed who also do not rise to the same level as Pierce and Allen in my opinion as franchise players.

Allen and Pierce is the most fiercesome offensive 1-2 punch in the East and perhaps in the NBA in my opinion right now. They have defensive deficiencies to be sure but offensively they both can do it all. Having Jefferson as #3 will free him enough to make him look like a true all star much like Richard Jefferson or Tayshaun Prince do on thier teams.

It is not simply a quantity issue here. We have 2 guys who have been the #1 option on serious playoff teams who both can put up 25 ppg with versatile scoring, driving, shooting, passing and ball handling.

Unless Ray’s game falls off the cliff… we are going to be more dangerous than the 41-42 win teams you mention.

  I think the defense won’t be as bad as people say. When Tony Allen’s healthy, then 3 of our top 6 (TA, Rondo, Perk) will be very good defenders and Al’s better than people think. Also, when Tony’s healthy, we’ll have a decent bench. We need a backup center, but Allen and Gomes are pretty solid reserves.

Wyc signed Blount,Scal to horrendous deals,the Theo deal is to get ANOTHER max contract hopefully in a trade,to get rid of Walker he took Raef…he’s spent money like a drunken sailor and now with 2 max’s here the next move,trade or AL’s deal,he’ll be in taxland.MLE’s,i agree with ya…so far..Back to Gomes-is he terrible???

Roy..being from Buffalo and part of your movie I appreciate the name but Danny has assembled a team with a coach that might suck…could continue to fail….but he’s got 2 very good players-still All Stars and a young point with promise,maybe, and a young post player that MOST are begging!!!! him NOT to trade for KG…when/if the plan fails you & Brick will be in hog heaven but stop crying like we’re the Kansas City Royals /Clippers of the 80’s…

Hobbs Said:

What makes you think this team will spend? Wyc has never gone over the luxury tax, and has made deal after deal motivated by money (first Antoine trade, reacquisition of Antoine, Telfair trade, etc.) This off-season, we’ve seen several free agents signed to short-term, reasonable contracts that could have been major benefits to our team, and yet we haven’t even heard any serious rumors about Celtics interest (Joe Smith, Chucky Atkins).

Until Wyc does even one thing to the contrary, I’m assuming he has no interest in spending the money it takes to be a contender.

I guess the reverse is true, why does not spending, by itself indicate they won’t? This may be that their evaluation process of players is different than yours.

For example you offer Chucky Atkins. I don’t see any value in investing here. He was dropped by Memphis, the worst record in the league, like a hot rock. He was moved out by Lowry, and then they Drafted Conley.

I say no thanks…but like you, just my opinion.

I believe they are “using patience” to find the right fit. That too may prove to be ineffective in getting the player, but at least they didn’t spend the money, harnessing the team with a bad contract to prove they will spend.

The Celtics should just stand pat this year. Each Ainge move seems to put the team further away from contention, not closer. He’s impatient and impulsive.

Besides, why throw money at a roster that will be coached by Rivers?

i agree on the Al Jefferson point. this could be a crazy year for him. coming into this year, if we still only had PP as a premier scoring option, teams would throw doubles at AJ all game and make players like Gomes, Allen, even Perkins beat you. Now pair him with PP and Jesus, and suddenly you cannot feasibly consider doubling the block, potentially leaving one of the best shooters in NBA history open

The question I have are what are the chances that Ray and Pierce will have off nights at the same time? hmmm neither of them are lights out field goal shooters though (even for 3s). I dunno – I was going to to look at the numbers – but both these guys are chuckers, too many 7-20 nights for my liking. Hopefully they will be able to defer to the hot shooter…

I’ll take Wyc at his word that he would be willing to pay the tax for a contending team, but so far the team seems absolutely against going into the Luxury Tax territory. Of course, that puts them in the same boat as every NBA team not in New York or Dallas. Phoenix gives away draft picks to keep from paying a tax, for crying out loud.

I appreciate Jeff’s optimistic take, but besides defense I’m worried about turnovers. The Celtics are heavily relying on Rondo’s development and ability to run a team, and he may not be ready. I love his potential, but that seems like a risky peg you hang your hat on considering they are missing a big defender in the middle.

If you are going to go up-tempo and score a lot to make up for the lack of defense (like the Suns and Warriors) you need a guy at the point to make it work. Is Rondo that guy, at least this year?

Jefferson will only be an all-star if he gets 15-20 touches per game. Will he?

Maybe the Celtics should bring back Brandon Hunter to gobble up all of those missed perimeter jump shots.

Mosqkk, I would try to trade for a package of Barea & Diop. Then we would have the point guard and a defensive presence in the middle. Not sure what it would take to get Dallas to bite though.

Would you trade Pierce,Allen,Jefferson, straight up for Bosh, Bargnani, Ford?

I would.

Toronto’s “Big three” are more valuable than ours.

Don’t forget the Nets have the potential of 4 All-Stars! Maglorie…

I think Al’s defense is not gonna be as bad as people make it out to be. He made strides last year and I’m sure he will again this year. Add 2 blocks a game and he is a lock for the All-star game

Questionable decisions often have logical answers when viewed in proper light.

I’m referring to Danny Ainge’s “vision” for success and his plan to rebuild through the draft. Why would he abandon this vision when offerred the best chance for success (i.e., drafting high in the lottery)?

Why would any GM change his vision? The ANSWER? Because the original VISION and plan were not working! Today’s Forum Topic confirms this suspicion in the evaluation of the drafting expertise of NBA General Managers. Danny received a grade of C .

Admittedly the survey was faulted by favoring GMs who drafted in the lottery and therefore selected more impact players as opposed to those GMs (like Danny) selecting late in the draft (when the talent pool had been diluted).

The fact remains that while Ainge has been resourceful in selecting bench-type pieces he has not significantly improved our talent base. I base that on the apparent lack of trading interest in our players as evidenced by our inability to trade for a desirable 1 or 4/5.

Anyone is entitled to make a mistake but should it take this long to recognize that the vision was faulty?

I was just going to say exactly what Jay_Diggles said…Magloire is a wild card. He signed a one year deal for short money and could turn it on. Of course, he could suck like usual (except for his one big contract year) but the potential is there.

NETS HAVE 4 ALLSTARS:
Kidd
R.Jefferson
V.Carter
Magloire….

I think this incorrectly assumes that these players are capable of playing at all-star level together. Pierce has always been a marginal/borderline all-star, most often chosen by the coaches simply to keep the venerable Celtics franchise from being embarassed by having no representation. Ray-Ray is old and you just know his game is going to go in serious decline the minute he arrives in Boston. Al Jefferson is a total wildcard. It is impossible to say whether he will flourish in a situation with two ball-hogs and no strong PG getting him the ball when he needs it. Also, his mental toughness is a huge concern and with so much expectation riding on him this season, he could very well slump.

Bottom line – I would be surprised if the Celtics have even one all-star this season.

First things first: Moskqq and Brick- watch what you say about people being “corporate schills.” Not only is it insulting, but you have no foundation for that assumption and I don’t appreciate labels…I was attacked for my previous piece when it seemed quite clear to me that I stated that the team was within striking distance of building a true contender IF they aquired some veteran savvy at the two greatest positions of need..i then went on and described the extreme uncertainty surrounding the young and unproven players on the roster…the only “optimism” was what I consider to be the team’s realistic shot at addressing the two primary need areas and actually having a damn good team..never endorsed this team for great things as currently constituted, though I think the playoffs are a given with health permitting..

Secondly, everyone knows that this team has had defensive struggles. The team needs to improve defensively if it is going to win a lot of games. But it MUST be acknowledged that it was also a lack of offense and a propensity to turn the ball over that helped lead to many of the team’s losses as well.

Also, one thing a “Big Three” does is make the team extremely difficult to to guard. I don’t like the idea of relying on Perkins and Rondo as starters next year, but they are PLUS individual defenders at the book-end positions and really have a clearly defined responsibility when on the court with Jefferson/Pierce/Allen…

If team defense can improve and TOs can be cut down, this team can win a lot of games. The bench isn’t particulary deep in terms of offensive potency or experience, but their is some skill there….still don’t understand these arguments about a lack of “balance” though. How many teams have more than one low-post offensive threat? Where is this un-balance? The team has perimeter shooters, rebounders, individual skilled defenders..the only imbalance I see is in experience…

Pierce has never been a borderline all-star. This is a ridiculous statement. He’s been one of the league’s premier scorers for most of his career now as well as a fantastic rebounder for his position.

celty86 … if the price were right, Barena and Diop actually doesn’t sound bad at all. Interesting (and non-blockbuster) thought. It’s that kind of move that would really help the Celtics (we’re probably at a point to stop talking superstars in trades, etc.).

 moskqq said:
  Questionable decisions often have logical answers when viewed in proper light.

I’m referring to Danny Ainge’s “vision” for success and his plan to rebuild through the draft. Why would he abandon this vision when offerred the best chance for success (i.e., drafting high in the lottery)?

Why would any GM change his vision? The ANSWER? Because the original VISION and plan were not working! Today’s Forum Topic confirms this suspicion in the evaluation of the drafting expertise of NBA General Managers. Danny received a grade of C .

Admittedly the survey was faulted by favoring GMs who drafted in the lottery and therefore selected more impact players as opposed to those GMs (like Danny) selecting late in the draft (when the talent pool had been diluted).

The fact remains that while Ainge has been resourceful in selecting bench-type pieces he has not significantly improved our talent base. I base that on the apparent lack of trading interest in our players as evidenced by our inability to trade for a desirable 1 or 4/5.

Anyone is entitled to make a mistake but should it take this long to recognize that the vision was faulty?
———————————————————————————————————-

You assume a great deal in this post and this is why I have a problem with these supposed “realist” viewpoints.

You take it for granted that the Celtics have had “trouble” consumating a trade because one hasn’t happened yet. What basis point do you have for that statement other than your own impatience? There haven’t been a great many trades consumated in the entire NBA thus far and the Celtics are one of the teams that has made one.

Also, you assume a “changing of gears” when it come to the “vision” of this team and the building plan becuase the team didn’t draft at their lottery slot the past two seasons. Ainge has stated on numerous occassions dating back as early as his 2nd year here that they wanted to acquire assets in order to facilitate moves as well as home-grow talent.

The team has still managed to take 2 players in each of the past 2 drafts despite trading their initial pick. Ainge has been consistent in with his initial statements by acquiring higher end talent with the assets at his disposal. Say what you want about Ray Allen, but he is an All Star player who will likely go to the HoF when he retires. I COMPLETELY agree that his age is a majore concern and NECESSITATES further moves in order to truly contend, but there is nothing inconsistent about the move itself.

Finally, in terms of the “vision” not working. It’s extremely hard to predict developmental learning curves, but youth development has certainly been a net possitive over the past 4 seasons. Do I wish our current players had more value than they currently do? HELL YES. But I’ve also seen growth in all our current youth from one year to the next and I still expect to see their trade value increase until the ultimately reach their potential. Not all of these players are potential stars, but players other than star-level performers still command value depending on the situation.

Rondo, Gomes, West, Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, Allan Ray, and Leon Powe have all increased their value during their time here. Gerald Green has probably remained neutral because he is still a ways away from being a big-time contributor, but he did have a pretty solid season for a 2nd year player-ranking very well in a multitude of offensive catagories…

So, I don’t see the “vision” not working, I see a process of player development that takes time. It’s not surprising that the 4th year players-TA, Jefferson, West- have garnered the most attention. They are the most proven aside from Perkins-who has only played 2 seasons in in terms of games played and minutes earned…

My opinion is that more moves must be made, but thus far things have been consistent with the initial intent of the rebuilding through the draft model. It’s just taken us longer than we’d hoped to get a good return on our assets…they continue to valuate when all is said and done however and could become more valuable as this next season rolls on…

3 All Stars is not a blowhardy statement. It’s not overly optimistic either. But we are unproven at the PG and Center positions. Hello breakeven record! As far as our bench, I was impressed with some of what I saw in Las Vegas but none cracked tourney honors so no one else was that impressed.
As far as Grousbeck, why should he ever pay the luxury tax until we ARE the Spurs. The luxury tax is paid by fools, not necessarily winners. And Grousbeck is a true fan. I see him at every game I’m at and he wants to see wins, not profits. My guess is he and his partners would choose to win games and breakeven (or lose a couple million per year) than lose and make money, or win big and lose a lot of money. Some of you guys talk like this is a half billion business. I don’t think the Celtics gross $100 million per year.

Perhaps, BillfromBoston, the lady doth protest too much? When did I ever call you a shill?

But while we’re on the topic, are you affiliated with the Celtics or with any local media outlet?

As far as Grousbeck, why should he ever pay the luxury tax until we ARE the Spurs.

And the Spurs aren’t even in luxury tax land as far as I know.

I’m optimistic. Tony Allen was really emerging as a legitimate All Star when he went down (7 steals the game before he went down).

Barring a trade, on this squad I’d still like to see most of the minutes at the 5 go to Jefferson. Gomes, Powe and Baby will be far more productive than Perkins and Theo.

Could Pruitt be this year’s Daniel Gibson?

BillfromBoston; I guess I did shake your tree a bit much but I never called you a “shill” either. But if the shoe fits….

I find no contradiction in my assessment of Ainge’s shifting gears and changing his blueprint for success. He did trade two lottery picks and that course was at variance with his professed “building through the draft” premise.

 This year it wasn’t Delonte that was the centerpiece of the Ray Allen trade but rather our 5th round lottery pick. I personally like the Allen trade but I don’t like his “midstream” shift to build around Paul Pierce premise.

I don’t know what trade discussions we’ve had but I do know that so far they have not been productive conversations. We are still waiting for the other shoe to drop and the longer we wait to set the table the less appetizing the dish (player).

I doubt that I’m being impatient as much as distrustful. I don’t understand why Ainge departed from his original vision and chose instead to build around Al Jefferson and go with youth. That course won’t work when you continually trade away lottery choices…2 years ago it was to save money, not to accumulate TALENT.

moskqq,

I don’t know what interviews of Danny you’ve been listening too. All I’ve heard him say for five years straight is that the draft is for building assets. He has never said that he was going to build a youth movement. That was an intermediary step. The only change may have been when the injuries piled up this year and it looked like we had a real shot to get a championship-type player in the draft. Ainge has been very consistent.