Random Thoughts On The Trade

gomes isnt in the deal according to jeff goodman on FSN

Wasn’t Bird’s rookie year the biggest one-season turnaround in league history?

It’s amazing that now we’ll have three bigtime vets and then a ton of rookies. Also amazing, two deals sending out at least 5 guys and Scal is still here! Way to go Veal!

Maybe the young guys will actually develop now they’ve got some vet leadership

Last week, there was an article talking about “IF” on celticsblog. This week we’ll talk about what contending. Such an increase, isn’t it?

no wonder these trades take so long to go down-did anyone read Stein’s breakdown of KG’s trade kicher? http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=TradeKicker101

I can’t believe we are selling the future to such an extent.

Big Al and Gerald will be dominant players in this league for many years.

All the “old” guys on this team better staty healthy or this is going to be very ugly.

At least Doc has no more excuses.

I am officially very sad, still a loyal Celtic, but a very sad loyal Celtic.

Cheers

Aussie

Superstar offensive players don’t play defense. That’s why they put up the numbers. We still don’t match up well against Washington, NY, New Jersey, or Cleveland. Better find some fillers in the D league.

The only thing I’m bummed about is giving up those 2 picks (assuming they’re in the deal). Danny has shown himself to be pretty good at getting quality out of those mid to late first rounders. With the veteran feel of the team now a couple rookies would be welcome additions. Otherwise, I can’t help but feel like everyone we’re giving up has either peaked or near-peaked.

hope we keep Gomes

OK. I lied. I’m bummed about losing Al too, but I’m doing a good job of talking myself through it.

Besides this year’s picks, our bench consists of Scal, Powe & TA???

My first random thoughts were the two questions you listed… And how do we go about getting the back ups we need now? Can Minni make Gomes a rfa?

Aussie Celtic said :

"At least Doc has no more excuses ".

Don’t count on it, I can guarantee he’ll point the finger at Rondo with every loss.

It’ll be interesting to see if Doc can screw up even with three superstars in the starting lineup.

c’mon Aussie…. you’re “very sad”? come on!! no one knows how al jefferson and gerald green will turn out. for all we know, telfair is the guy who will become an all-time great! however, on the receiving end is a guy who has been to war and won some battles. KG is a sure all-star, a sure hall-of-famer, and will be surrounded by the best talent of his career. to say you’re flat-out sad over this is just overly dramatic! the team as was constructed before the draft was the 2nd worst in the NBA! it was practically an NBDL squad. now the team has three superstars! i fail to see what the problem is here. even if jefferson and green turn out to be legends, you can’t fault the team for giving them up for a sure thing. i, for one, am very optimistic.

How pissed is Kobe right now as he watches Pierce get his nemesis and the big ticket?? Got to love pissing off a Laker to add to the sweetness of this deal.

All those people whining about the future, stop it! This is where we wanted to be so come out of the expectations of trying to be an 8th seed and studying draft options to no end and enjoy being a top 5 NBA team with a shot at the title!!

The real Hoops

That Stein piece is interesting—thanks, flexilexi. If I’m reading it right it is better if Gomes isn’t in the deal because then Garnett is entitled to waive more of his trade kicker and great amount would bring a dollar-for-dollar reduction in the C’s potential luxury tax liability.

bravo HOOPS! i’m with you 1000%.

The funny thing is, they still need a backup center and a veteran pg to be a halfway decent team. I suppose Glenn Davis is now the backup center by default.

And what happens to Clifford Ray now that his star pupil is gone?

Master Po,
I’ve been posting here for a couple years under various names. I am really unsettled to see “confused Po.” This is not allowed. Po has answers. Po offers insight. Po adds humor. Po does not get confused.

To all who are happy with the trade we have just morgaged our future and in 3-4 years when our worn out stars are in wheel chairs will be a lottery team again

This is what Danny had planned all the way….and now he’s delivering in a MAJOR way! I’ll miss Big Al, but Gerald will never be a player. This will not only make us relevant again…this will bring # 17!

so many opinions about all of this…the hardest thing for me is getting somewhat attached to players and then losing all of them at once- but this really is a good thing. The big 3 will still be good in 3 years, and when their contracts are up, they won’t cost nearly as much to re-sign (if that’s what we decide). We will then have money to spend on all of the free agents who are this year’s rookies- not so bad, if you ask me.

The fact is, we turned our horrible contracts (Ratliff and Wally) into superstar quality players, while giving up most of our assets (but keeping our center and pg, and maybe a couple of forwards)…who knows what our 2nd rounders will accomplish, but for right now, this is an amazing thing for the Celtics. I guess everyone has gotten so used to losing and rebuilding, that we all thought that was how it was supposed to be…it’s not one and done, it’s more like 4 and done- then re-tool…

One thing is for certain, this is the closest this team has been to legitimately contending for an NBA Finals berth in years.

I keep hearing Gomes is NOT part of the deal.

Oh please, this team is a million miles away from the NBA finals. They have a sh*t coach, a 20 year-old point guard, a center with no offensive game and no bench whatsoever, unless Tony Allen comes back 100%, in which case they have a solid 6 man rotation. Think about how far that gets you over 82 48-minute games (not counting the preseason and the playoffs). The team chemistry has been ruined with the departure of West, Jefferson and Gomes, and there is no assurance that chemistry will develop.

One desperation move piled upon another. Barring injury, they will be better than they would have been for a couple of years. After that, it’s too horrible to contemplate.

I love the comment above about how superstar players don’t play defense. KG is an 8-time NBA all-defensive team member.

I also love these people who are complaining that we’ll only be good for four years. Gee, that sucks. Four years of contending, that’s all?

Hilarious, these Celtics fans against the trade. As spake Heraclitus: “Asses prefer straw to gold.”

Sorry to see BigAl delt for anyone. If KG does not sign contract extension before the deal, then it makes no sense what-so-ever to pay such a heavy for a one or two year shot. Like Brick said: we still have Doc as coach, no back-up center nor back-up point guard. Sounds like a desperation move by Danny to save his butt. Danny, hiring Doc in the first place doomed your tenure as GM. On top of that, you give away two lottery picks in two years for a bust in Telafair and an aging vet in Allen.

to say the team’s doomed to the lottery in 3, 4 years is an extremely negative point of view to take. sure, it’s possible if the team does NOTHING else to the roster for 3, 4 more years and other players don’t emerge, the team may be doomed. BUT, what if we find out at least 1 of the big 3 is the type of player who can be very effective in his late 30s? what if tony allen and ronda emerge into everyday threats? what if perkins becomes the next ben wallace?? what if brandon wallace realizes the potential gerald green never did? i mean, there’s still potential for growth here. and what if ainge can score decent talent in the (hopefully) late 1st round? and in 3, 4 years when the big 3 contracts are up, if they decide not to resign, then you have cap room to work with to sign your precious younger talent.

as short-sighted as this deal IS, i think it’s just as short-sighted to view it within a vacuum and assume this team and all the younger players’ talents are cemented in stone for another decade. the spurs continue to replace parts as the years go by. perhaps with this exodus of talent to boston, down the road more players will be willing to jump in. you gotta consider the effect being nba-relevant has overall. it’s not just feeling good about what segment you make on sportscenter. it also effects free agent signings and young people’s perception of a team and their eventual desire to be a part of it when their time comes. this is why phoenix, dallas, and SA get all the FA’s wanting to sign.

i just want 1 championship at a time. let’s worry about the team’s chances to win a championship in 2010-2015 later.

The love for potential and playing for 6-7 years down the road confuses me greatly. This team is being built to contend for a championship now. How long do you guys want to wait? Al Jefferson was my favorite Celtic, but I think we need to realize just how good of a player Kevin Garnett is now. He can rebound, score, pass, play defense, and he is a good teamate. I assume there is a certain percentage of posters here who live to be negative, but the “fun sponge” factor kills me.

The Hershell Walker comparisons are silly. The NBA is about superstars, unlike the NFL where a full team is more important.

I agree with Brick that this team does need a backup center and pg, but to say they need them to be “halfway decent” is one of the dumbest statements made on this board. Can you please give me your definition of “halfway decent?” This team, without these improvements will win 50 games. I think 50 wins is more than “halfway decent”

The may win 50 games, but they do not have the depth or the perimeter defense to succeed in the playoffs. They have one great player, two very good players and then…

I agree with those who have said that Ainge is “all in.” So is Rivers.

They do need a half-way decent backup C—this team right now has got to be one of the smallest in the NBA. Powe and Baby are really small PF.

Strange as it sounds, if Perk gets hurt we’re actually in real big trouble. Then you’re looking at KG at the 5 (depending on matchups) and Scal/Powe/Davis starting. And who backs them up? Not a catastrophe, but something that should be avoided. They need another 5 who can at least not kill you.

i.e., half-way decent.

let’s be clear. We do not have a STARTING point guard or center. We have two not-ready-for-prime-time back ups who have are now going to be pressed into service far beyond the scoop of their ability and/or experience.

brick, danny said from the start that he was acquiring assets to land some good vets. In the mean time Celtics PR and media relations has been hard at work marketing these guys to the public. Apparently they have some marketing geniuses too, judging by your reaction. Ainge inherited a pretty horrible team. Now we have three legit all-stars, I really can’t complain. We will have plenty of time to restock the youngins while we are shredding the East apart.

So,it seems we’re gutting the bench with no money to sign scrubs without going over the luxury tax. So much for any injuris and what the heck is Minny going to do with a 5 for 1 trade? They buying out their other scrubs, releasing them or ???

Frankly the addition of Gomes and 2 first round picks above the first reported trade including Al Jefferson pushed me over the edge to a lets win in 2010 and screw Pierce.

Random thought: Much like the team itself, Celtics blog is about to go to a whole ’nother level. Get ready Jeff!

The negativity on this board sucks. Seriously how can there still be complaints. We have gone from 2nd worse team in league to legitimate contenders. I hate losing Al but KG is a huge defensive upgrade, without the injury history. Had this trade been made prior to the Ray Allen deal I would have been much more skeptical but not now.

I am sorry to all those psychics who predict in 3 years the Celtics as constructed last year would have been contenders, and wanted to see even more youth added to the squad. They are just going to have to settle for Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett in Celtic Green. Oh the humanity.

Brick I agree with you about PG and a backup center but to say we are not a contender? That is just silly. Especially after watching a one man show make it to the finals last year.

I understand that point of view on the playoffs Brick, and you may be right. What players do you add now to put this team over the top? (are we assuming we keep Gomes or let him go?)

Funny thing about contending for 3-4 years:

Pierce’s has 4 years left
Allen has 3
Garnett’s extension is for 3-4 years

We will have a 24 year old point guard with finals experience, a defensive stalwart at center, a number of veteran role players, a load of cap space, and a high lottery pick.

In other words, we will be in a better position in four years than we are today.

Well, Steve Nash or Jason Kidd would help

JimmyT, wouldn’t it be a hoot to see the look on KG’s face the first time he sees Scal take that three!! The staredown would be one for the ages. Frank, can’t you give it a rest? Your poison for Rivers and Ainge has totaly warped your mind. Danny’s picked his road to travel right or wrongly. It must be killing you to have so many bloggers feeling giddy. Jeesh you’d wouldn’t be happy if we had Phoenix or Dallas’ roster. You win in this league with stars, high level talent, not AK47’s. Danny is casting his lot with three 30 year old star quality players, not quasi-stars. The other options were Allen, PP, Jefferson and Rondo, etc. for the next three years or Jefferson, Green, Corey Brewer, Rondo and whoever you get for PP in a trade plus probably one more lottery pick (most likely a #7-10 pick). Both those last two options get you a 45-52 win team with a small chance of doing something in the playoffs. Face it, it’s either this and hope everyone stays healthy or we needed to have won the May 22nd lottery which obviously didn’t happen. It’s extremely difficult to win a title in the NBA. Gotta give Ainge credit for taking a shot at it. On second thought, you don’t have to but a lot of us can.

Nice realistic discussion. But Steve Nash can’t play defense, so I am sure you would kill that move even if they brought him in for nothing in return. Also, is Brick really John Hollinger?

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=garnettdealhollinger

I feel like I’m the only one who doesn’t have extreme feelings one way or the other about this trade.

Sorry, but I saw it coming, I said it weas a terrible move then, and my opinion hasn’t changed. The Ray Allen deal was terrible too.

This basically takes the team back to 2002. They have better stars than the 2002 team, but the role players and the coaching won’t be nearly as good.

I do see one positive of this trade. Rivers will be exposed for the buffoon that he is. There are no more excuses. Either they play for the title within the next two years, or else the Ainge/Rivers tenure will be judged a complete disaster.

Let me add that injuries are no longer an acceptable excuse. When you trade for players in the 30s (or retain players like Pierce who are entering their 30s), injuries come with the territory. So when they happen, I want no pzzing and moaning from either Rivers or the peanut gallery.

Minimum roster size: 13.

I don’t see chemistry as an issue since our big three have all succeeded with big ego teammates: Cassell (KG and Allen) and Antoine for Pierce. Even though they are all early thirties they no longer have to carry teams.
I agree that Gomes and West would have been great fits. The UFA market is bleak at PG with Mike Wilks, Darrick Martin and GP as the remaining big names.(Though I wouldn’t mind seeing Dee Brown from the Jazz joining the C’s mix) The back-up C crop makes Clifford Ray look like the best option since he’ll need a new role.
This team might be able to entice a vet trying to win a ring (PJ Brown?) for a lower end salary as the season progresses.
I would also love to see Navarro in Green but I don’t see that they anything left of value to deal.

Gary Payton signing would be hilarious. And not a bad move.

Just remember that every player they add costs double because of the luxury tax. Davis and Pruitt will cost double too.

He has to still be a sorta-good businessman, but Wyc better be ready to take some pain given this all-in move.

Not to mention the fact they will actually sell-out this year with FULL PRICED tickets. And ad dollars, Garnett beer mugs, etc.

With you all the way, Brick. The reason Bird, MacHale and the Chief did not win more titles is because they didnt have a good bench. Our 3 stars now are not as good by a long shot and the bench is far more worse. No 17 is now farther down the road.

flyfisher: the reason the Big Three didn’t win more titles is a) the LA Lakers were kinda good, and 2) 3 titles is pretty damn outstanding. jeebus christmas get a grip.

We are a million years away from the finals? Hello!

Who was Lebron’s teammates this year? Where was his great cast of characters? Who was their great point guard during the playoffs- some rookie kid out of Texas? Awesome center? etc, etc.

Why would it be so inconceivable for the Celts to be in 3 of the next 5 NBA finals? Whose the big dog out of the East that dominates us?

I’ve had a better 10 hours today than all my hours as a Celt fan combined over the last two years.

As I posted on this site weeks ago, this trade could happen and should happen- so to all the KG won’t resign, never happen posters, hate to say it (no I love to say), told you so.

Now I’ll tell you again, we are legitimate Eastern conference NBA Finalists contenders for the next 3-4 years. And I won’t be shy about saying I told you so again 3 years from now either.

We are legitimate playoff contenders, baby, get used to it.

I don’t give a dang how much tickets cost, a mug of beer, a free agent signing, giving away the #28 pick in the draft next year, the luxury tax….. All that is meaningless. We have a legitimate shot at #17, we are amongst the elite teams in the NBA, rarified air, it smells great.

We are not the Miami Heat of a few years ago. Look where they are now. One and done. That being said, having 3 all star players in their prime or just past their prime and being in luxury tax hell down the road with a bunch of 2nd round picks to be the starters in the event of an injury makes me more nervous than writing off last year as the year of the injury bug with a retooled team not getting us to the ECS and a hope that the draft core of the last few years will “get it”.

We basically dumped the team for an upgrade at 2 positions so now PP, RA and KG are going to have to average >25 PPG and get the remainder from Perkins (not likely unless on easy dunks) or Rondo (who can’t hit the open J). Tony Allen won’t have the hops he had before the injury and Scal is the 11th guy on a good team. So, Pruit, Wallace, Powe, Big Baby better be NBA ready. Yes, an upgrade from PP and AW shooting 3’s and likely will take us deep in the playoffs but if we’re expecting them to play 40 minutes a night and the rest of the team gets the rest, we’re not helping ourselves. If the goal is to give those 3 a shot at winning it all and bringing in serious dough and TV coverage instead of having zero games on national TV, then we hit the motherload. I say this is a one year experiment and then if we win it, all will be forgotten. If we don’t, then one of the 3 (Garnett) will probably ask for a trade. Ray Allen is too professional and Ainge gutted the team to give PP a chance so PP can’t say boo …

Brick – You have absolutely gone insane. To say that this team is a million miles away from the finals is absolutely one of the more idiotic statements that you have made on this board. (and you have difinitely made a bunch) There isn’t a team in the East that looks better on paper than this team. You whine about defense and we bring in a premier defensive player in here that also can fill the whole stat sheet. We’re not talking long term here in your comment. I don’t think this team can beat the Spurs or some of the West teams for a championship, but to say they are a million miles away is just your usual negative drivel. We will win 50 games, go to at least the Eastern conference finals, and Doc will suddenly have to put up or shut up. I think he will put up quite honestly. Didn’t want to lose Big Al either, but this team will definitely contend in the east. A little luck and we can have a shot at the end.

Flyfisher – The reason Bird and McHale and Parrish didn’t win towards the end is because all three got old and injured. BTW “far more worse” isn’t quite gramatically correct. I predict we will be “more better”.

Just wondering if Danny and docextension have been sharing a “smoke”.

They will win 50 games, lose in the second round of the playoffs, and then the recriminations will begin. I agree that Garnett will be the first to ask to be traded. He has no allegiance to the Celtics.

They have to do something about the pg position, and Brevin Knight isn’t the answer. Neither is Gary Payton, and neither, God knows, is Marko Jaric. I have no answers either, because Ainge has no more trading chips and all of the decent FAs have been gobbled up, excluding the Europeans.

Now that they’ve gone all in, why not go after Diamantidis or Papaloukas? What’s another 8-10 million dollars when you have already put the franchise in luxury tax hell through 2011?

Yeah, I’ll tell you what I’m smoking, one of the official Red Auerbach cigars and it’s great!

I’ll be posting next year when we are deep into the playoffs, not like this year where we were tanking and praying for fre**ing ping pong balls. Which who knows, maybe NBA ref Doughney was in charge of the lottery.

It breaks my heart to lose the NBA repeat dunk champion next year. (NOT)!

Gamble34 said:

 flyfisher: the reason the Big Three didn’t win more titles is a) the LA Lakers were kinda good, and 2) 3 titles is pretty damn outstanding. jeebus christmas get a grip.
==
The reason the C’s didn’t win more titles was primarily due to the Sixers, not the Lakers. The Sixers went to the Finals 3 times in Bird’s first 4 years. The 2 years the C’s lost to the Lakers were heavily due to injuries (Max in 85 and Walton/Mchale/DJ in 87).

One last point, as someone who saw almost all of the games in Bird’s career (single digits for games missed), I can positively state their bench from 84 on became their weakness. The weak bench caused the starters to rack up way to many minutes and shorten their careers. Also the fact they never really developed any of their draft picks (that survived==not a pleasant thought but accurate) from the 80’s or early 90’s didn’t help extend the careers of the big 3.

I’m on record for being disappointed with this trade, not because I’m anti-KG, but because we’ve just gutted the bench and have little (if any) financial room to sign some decent FAs (not that there appear to be many left). The additional draft picks were the extra part that Danny shouldn’t have included without Foye coming back in return.

Danny and Doc have chosen their direction and this team MUST deliver dividends next year or this lopsided trade becomes a complete disaster.

brick was correct in predicting the c’s getting kg. i hope he is wrong about their being doomed. i would feel better with a new coach. clifford has perk big baby and leon powe to coach. there are many pieces missing.

The biggest turnaround in NBA history was 36 games I think, Larry Legends rookie season held it for a long time but I think Tim Duncan and the returning (from injury) David Robinson beat that, or maybe tied it.

This is a great move. Chemistry will develop. Gomes and Jefferson will be missed; but their chemistry did not win us anything. The truth was that without Pierce we were a terrible ball club as evident from last season. Danny built around Paul and I salute him for it. Paul Pierce will be playing with Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett; marinate on that for a sec. It was nice to watch Big Al and the rooks develop their game, but we have a chance to win now. Die hard celts fans need to be prepared for all boston to jump on our wagon. Hopefully the Garden will not be so empty any more and will be rowdy n green.

I think its time for a sensible middle ground here. Is the team better in the present moment than it was before? Yes. Was there too much given in the trade as it is reported? Yes. Am I pissed to give up Big Al? Yes. There is an instinctual level of being upset at giving up players one has invested time in watching develop (Delonte, Al, Gerald ((to a point)), Gomes ((is there a final word on his inclusion in the deal?)), etc.). But to say the team as constituted, and not allowing for any changes between now and opening tip-off, is a bust and destined for a 2nd round exit seems a bit pessimistic and drastic. Let’s watch the team and see how they play. Is Al a given? I might say probably and it pains me to see him no longer on the C’s. Gerald? Not so sure. I love rooting for him to become the player I HOPE he becomes but is it a given that he will? By no means. Delonte and Gomes are the types of players I would rather see stay. Solid back-ups who hustle and contribute in the way role players should. Can players like these be found again? Yes they can. Al Jefferson maybe no but thats the only player traded who isn’t perhaps replacable. I’m still on the fence about the deal but willing to look at it realistically, not as a black or white situation. Of course I’ve been wishing and believing, to a point, that the Jeffersons and Greens(and Rondos) develop to become the players we see they can perhaps become but that doesn’t mean they will. So in one sense we’ve gone from a best case scenario contender to a for a while contender in the East. I just think there is an attitude of these players will become all they can potentially be (and under Doc do you think they would?) and we’re giving up on this ideal situation, but how many players have you seen never reach their potential in the NBA? The list is too long to name all the names.
As for the Steve Nash, J-Kidd comment above, as mentioned Nash can’t play D to save his life and is in my opinion one of the most overrated players in the NBA. Seems ridiculous that he has two MVP’s and his obvious better version J-Kidd (who I truly hate) has none. But Kidd is def past his prime now and not an answer if you do believe in a long term concept, you can;t have it both ways. Garnett is a top-tier defensive player so lets not dismiss that entirely, one of the gaping holes in the team.
This is long enough as is (and written in a somewhat drunken state), though clearly not thought out enough but the point in the end is, I don’t know what to make of the trade yet. Part of me hates it for trading away the players we’ve seen grow and see the potential in, but outside of Al that is what it is potential (i.e. Gerald Green not Ryan Gomes…though with Al there still are some question marks one must admit), and who I;ve invested much time in watching play and grow, (it does pain me to see Big Al go, in a depressing feeling way) but as the team stands now one can’t say they are better as of today. And in the end he is getting older, and has played a few more NBA years than his age says, but Garnett is a beast of a player. So thats one drunken rant that I will quite likely disagree with in the morning but at least does hope to correct the black or white views for a little grey, and perhaps a little green.

Brick im just curious instead of the ray allen and kg trades, what would you have done instead? not having a go or anything, just curious what your plan is/was.