Bob Ryan's Big Bucket Of Cold Water

Ryan was going crazy before the draft saying he wouldn’t trade Al for KG straight. Then, the night of the trade he was as excited anyone, on both ESPN’s PTI and his own show on NESN proclaiming the C’s serious contenders. Now he flip flops yet again and is back to being negative?

I don’t get this guy. Make up your mind Bob. like Bob Ryan overall but this is shortsighted, it’s August 2nd – more moves to be made. I’d also like people to take a gander at the Pistons bench the year they won the title. Carlos Delfino and Lindsay Hunter. Wooooowww.

You just cant satisfy some people . thats all this is. Im surprised the old guy didnt throw in a Larry Bird mention in there for good measure.
Someone get the man some prune juice.

I think he’s right that we gave up a little too much.

What other team could have topped a combination of Ratliff’s contract, Jefferson and Green?
I guess giving up 2 first rounders and Gomes was the price for getting to keep Rondo.

Someone help me out here, aren’t those 2 draft picks the one from Minny that likely would be a 2nd rounder and one that the C’s are hoping at least will be a very low 1st rounder—which teams increasingly don’t like due to the risk-to-guaranteed contract equation?

Your thoughts are echoed here with me.
I never understood why Danny had to give up 2 first round picks with this deal, this is what made me know Danny was desperate when he didn’t have to be. Minnesotta got the better end of this deal with just 2 players who are young and still growing in the league. Al Jefferson is a rare piece that will get better and better for the next couple of season before he hits his prime, Ryan Gomez also will get better and better, Gomez outside shot improved so much it was like he was another player inside an already improving player.
Gerald Green is said to have a very high upside to his potential and should’ve been icing on the cake, Theo Ratliff’s expiring contract should’ve have been seen as icing on the cake as well, but no desperate Danny give them 2 first round draft picks for the next two seasons.
I’m no prophet but this deal looks like its about to backfire on Danny.
I felt if Danny wanted to make a deal and do a major trade he should’ve traded Paul Pierce for a promising big man and a scoring wing man or perhaps a high draft pick.
Now Boston is in the unenviable position of paying double to add players to their roster.
And the whole suggestion of take Mutumbo disturbs me.
Boston now needs youth more than ever now that they gave up more than half of their young energetic team.
As for Rondo I’m one person that feels that Rondo is going to be a lot better than anyone could expect of him. I see this guy as a rare talent with a quiet passion that burn hot inside.
I’m more concerned with Doc coaching Rondo with three guys that demand the ball. Rondo as a point guard should be responsible for distributing the ball instead of give the ball to Pierce, Ray Allen, or KG and move out their way !
For the last few seasons that was how Pierce seemed to get the ball from the point guards, and i have to see that as Doc’s fault.

This is why I was so opposed to the trade. From 4 to the end of the bench is a joke. We’ll have guy in the rotation who couldn’t even be on a roster otherwise.

Long-term, I think Rondo will be very good, and I think Perk can be solid now if he loses some weight. Tony Allen might have been a very good player as well, but now he may never be the same again. But that’s it.

After that? Garbage. That’s why this was such an absurd trade, as was the Ray Allen trade. The chances of this team truly contending are slim and none. All 3 of the stars have to stay healthy and play 40 minutes, and that’s no give for 3 30somethings. We’re looking at guys like Scalabrine, Powe, Brandon Wallace, and Eddie House (I didn’t even realize he was still in the league)having to play 10-20 minutes a night. I can’t imagine a weaker bench, especially after Tony Allen gets hurt again.

It pains me to think we could have Jefferson, Perkins, Gomes, Rondo, Green, West, Brandon Roy/Rudy Gaye/Randy Foye, Corey Brewer/Yi/Noah, to go with Pierce. No, that team wouldn’t have contended in ‘07-’08, but down the road, the sky would have been the limit.

And we’re stuck with this current team for the next 3 years. While everyone is clamoring for this guy and that guy, we’ll be adding – and having to play – players like Eddie House. We’ll be swimming in the toilet long after the effects of these two (three if you count Telfair) collosal blunders finally wear off. Enjoy the relevance.

I think we’ve got an unstable bench, but it certainly isn’t one of the worst. We saw at the end of last year that Rondo is ready to run an offense. Perk is a solid young center who isn’t that pretty, but gets the job done. What proves the Celtics are going to be better on defense? The addition of Kevin Garnett. His prescence will change the complexity of the game alone. And coming off the bench, you got Tony Allen, who if healthy, is a high-flying slasher and a top notch defender. Then seventh is likely Eddie House. He isn’t a true PG, but he compliments Rondo well, and is one of the best shooters in the game. Eight will be Dikembe Mutombo (if he is signed). Although he is very old, he is still one of the best shot blockers in the game, and last year he proved he can still play. Backing up the PF spot will be a combination of Powe/Davis/Scal. Powe and Scal may be able to play power three, and Davis can move in for a few minutes at center.

Why dont some of you wait a little bit and see how this plays out before jumping off a bridge?

Ryan’s way too pessimistic. A number of successful NBA Finals team have had most of their offense coming from two or three guys. Consider, for instance, Larry Brown’s Philadelphia team with Allen Iverson and a bunch of rebounders and defensive specialists like Tyrone Hill, Eric Snow and Theo Ratliff.

Perkins, Rondo, Powe, Wallace, House, and Davis are going to do just fine. Yeah, we’ll be a bit weak at backup center, with Mutombo or Olowokandi. But few teams are 100% solid. And if Tony Allen can fully make it back, we’ll be in good shape.

Whole heartedly agree with Ryan’s article. Stop looking at the 3 all-stars and start looking at whats around them. Sure DA said he’s not done yet, but whats left isnt all that much better. House??? Its only cause we have to sign people. This team isn’t a contender with what they have around the 3.

Re Greg, the bench may get an unexpected boost from one player that you forgot to mention…Brandon Wallace. I wouldn’t be surprised if he played more minutes (over the course of the season) than those you previously mentioned.

It took only one negative article to bring out the perpetual pessimists from their “hiding place”. While it’s nice to point out the obvious (our bench and the second-line players we can afford as fillers) isn’t it time we look at the “big three” and appreciate THEIR upgrade? It should not be a surprise that we had to “over-pay” to give us a shot at #17. How else can you suddenly transform a mediocre team into a CONTENDER?

While Bob Ryan states the obvious (he has a 50/50 chance of being right) isn’t it time he quit “straddling” the fence? He could, for instance, focus on the talent on our bench and their probable contributions this year. We did “rob” the draft pantry with the additions of Glenn Davis and unheralded Brandon Wallace!

We are what we are and Bob’s time could have been better served discussing what we do with the pieces we have. The time for “wringing hands” passed with Garnett’s signature and monetary sacrifice to be a Celtic. For Bob this is a “cop-out” piece of literary redundancy! Sad to be getting old and stale!

He gave up a lot, but who cares? When is the last time one of these 5 nickels for 1 quarter deals didnt work in favor of the team who gets the best player.

I expect a big deadline deal this season. A star who wants out.

Ryan does have a point, although I don’t think the picture is as bleak as he paints it. The bench isn’t going to be a real strength, and Perk isn’t exactly the best starting C in the league.

However, if the C’s can add a vet center then they will have guys who can play roles. They don’t need great players, just guys who can fill a role as a shooter, defensive specialist, etc. I think the team has the look of being better defensively than Ryan intimates.

One thing that is clear is the C’s have a lot riding on the maturation of Rondo. He is being handed the starting PG job, and ideally he would have more time to work his way into that job. The earlier Rondo can reach his potential, the better the C’s team will look.

Does Ryan know that Ainge is NOT DONE filling out the roster? I GUARANTEE that the rookies on the bench right now will not be counted on to play big roles.

Why doesn’t everyone wait to see how the roster shakes out before making judgments about the bench.

The problem with Bob Ryan is that he REMEMBERS the success of an era passed when the Celtic’s had a BENCH that ran 10 deep. That “security blanket” disappeared with league expansion and talent dilution.

Icky’s reminder that it’s time to view “the other parts” as ROLE players and not prime time performers. The face of the NBA keeps changing and we may be witnessing another tactic for success in the Ainge/Wyc era. Sports writers need to stop looking BACKWARDS and become more “proactive” rather than hide behind the “reactive veil” of past glories.

Rondo is not the player that Deron Williams is, or Chris Paul for that matter. Teams do not win with second year point guards unless they are truly special talents. Ryan is right on about the poor bench. But the point guard situation will be the ultimate undoing of this team. Eddie House is not a guy who can play the point effectively. He’s an undersized shooting guard and yet another defensive liability. Yes, the team now has star power, but it also has a lot of holes. You can bring up Philly’s run with Iverson and a bunch of role players, but those role players were solid NBAers. Powe, Perkins, Scalabrine and the rest are just a slight cut above D-Leaguers.

Wow, you guys are totally pessimistic this morning. Rondo is our 4th/5th guy. Rondo and Perk are a perfect fit for this team- not demanding too many shots, but playing their hearts out on defense. Obviously if a major injury occurs, there would be a problem, but that’s the case with all teams. As for teams trading their 4th-12th spots for ours. I actually think there would be a few. There is VERY little money tied up in those guys, but a possibility of some future talent. This is what we all really wanted, and if you didn’t, go route for the TWolves- they will be mediocre for years.

Ryan (Rip Van Winkle) just woke up from 1986.

Please excuse Bob for not knowing who he is and what he writes for that matter.

He doesn’t watch Basketball the way he use to and he reminds me of this cranny old man standing at the water fountain trying to relive his youth.

That said, this team will be fine. I’m sure Danny is as we speak trying to shore up much of the roster fending what he can find overseas, available free agents, and the D League.

Also, remember that what your looking for is someone to spell the big 3 5-10 min here and there. Do you really think that they will not be logging close to 38-42 min a game?

Look around the league at your top flight teams San Antonio, Dallas, etc they’ve been able to add year after year with there core players. This will be our first year together and there will be an adjustment period.

Bob’s just being Bob for that matter, and he needs to go back to bed and sleep!

i think big baby will be able to back up ctr spot
just fine. he is nba ready and will still have tons to learn
but look at some of the back up ctrs out there. big baby
will surprise many. powe is better than many back up pf
out there,also he now has nba experience from last yr.
okay scali i would cut, wallace and pruitt wont be ready
this yr or at least until they weigh more than a h.s. player.
tony allen is a question mark. eddie house will help if he
can shoot as well as last yr. we do need two good more players
but hey we should be able to do that.

About how much money does the team make for every round of the playoffs in advances to? I think that would go a ways towards offsetting the luxury tax payments.

I do mostly agree with Ryan, although I will note that some of the players we have (Powe and Davis in particular) fit in very nicely as role players here: they’re more valuable to us, as complements to the big stars, then they would be elsewhere where they’d be expected to do more. I like the House pickup, too.

He’s an idiot anyway!

Ainge isn’t done tweaking the roster. Lets get into training camp before we all head for the Tobin Bridge for a swan dive. Relax a little. This was a short term deal. Lets live in the present.

How about James Posey? Isn’t he still available? He is a proven NBA rotational player. I think he would be a good backup at the wing, better than Wallace.

What’s wrong this morning is the CONCERN that #17 won’t be a “slam-dunk” similar to the concern that the Patriots (with a pantry full of quality players) may be one corner shy of getting-it-done. With the salary structure suffocating all of basketball the “portal of opportunity” remains fleeting and especially narrow. When that portal can be pried open (as in the present Celtic acquisitions) it takes courageous management to seize a rare opportunity for success. The alternative was to remain mediocre as our budding youth ate up salary for a substandard product.

The conventional means of building a champion through fortuious trades is especially difficult because of the need to balance salaries and the difficulty of finding trading partners when establish stars are involved. Building through the draft can be seen through the “eyes” of our recent Celtic past where optimism and disappointment were frequent partners.

What the heck does Bob Ryan know and what are his qualifications anyway, at the press conference I saw a table full of NBA current and former stars elated by the trade. Let miserable “the sky is falling” Bob sell his papers. The people at that table had more knowledge of basketball in there little finger than Bob has in his swollen head.

Trust the guys in the room. If Danny gave it, he had to. we will never have enough information to second guess him. Trust the guys in the room.

I didn’t think the bench last year was that great either. It was too young too inconsistent. Danny will find the FAs for fill up the roster. Anyway once the playoffs are reached, the rotation is shortened so the bench is not much of a factor. Plus at least one of the “big 3” will be on the floor at all times.

This is currently the bench of the Pistons[/b]:
Nazr Mohammed
Amir Johnson
Lindsey Hunter
Ronald Murray
Rodney Stuckey
Jason Maxiell
Arron Afflalo
Ronald Dupree
Cheick Samb
Sammy Mejia

 
The bench of the [b]Cavaliers:[/b]
Donyell Marshall
Damon Jones
Ira Newble
Aleksandar Pavlovic
David Wesley
Shannon Brown
Daniel Gibson

The bench of the [b]Nets[/b]:
Jason Collins
Bostjan Nachbar
Antoine Wright
Sean Williams
Marcus Williams
Josh Boone
Bernard Robinson
Mile Ilic
Clifford Robinson

And this is the bench of the [b]bulls:
Joe Smith
Mike Sweetney
Tyrus Thomas
Chris Duhon
Joakim Noah
Viktor Khryapa
Thabo Sefolosha
Adrian Griffin
Aaron Gray

Only the Bulls has a superior bench, the rest of the East candidates have as bad a bench as the Celtics
Are you scary?

“What the heck does Bob Ryan know and what are his qualifications anyway”

Well, he is enshrined in the Basketball HOF.

I like Bob, and he has a point. It doesn’t mean he is absolutely right (or wrong), because he does tend to be emotional. However, he knows basketball. Nobody can deny that.

I’ve kept out of this discussion, since the trade, but, in short, moskqq, pretty much expresses my view and in a more concise and articulate way than I could. As to the trade itself, I was, at first ambivalent. I hated to see Al Jeff leave and I wasn’t a KG fan. I know a bit more about him now and when I saw the press conference the chemistry at that table was electrifying. My concern was for the other members of the team, mainly Perk, and the affect the trade would have on them. As to all the emphasis on the lack of depth that follows the trade and that Danny didn’t have to do this or that, I’ll refer back to Moskgg again. This was not a compulsive move. Careful thought went into it. The opportunity was there and even though it didn’t look good at first Danny kept after it and KG, to his credit, also looked at it carefully. The opportunity became a real possibility and both sides struck (and I mean by that Danny and KG, who could have turned the trade down and who also seems to have structured his extension to help out the financial aspects). You can’t pass up on something like this and you don’t quibble over draft picks and whether or not Gomes needed to by included. Sure I’d rather have Gomes here, but that’s the way it goes. Told you moskqq was more concise and articulate.

I do get a laugh at Bob’s outbursts, though. I remember back in ‘82 or ’83 after the Celts were eliminated from the playoffs he wrote an article that the C’s should get rid of everyone other than Bird and start over.

Part of Bob’s charm is he really cares, unlike some sportswriters (Peter May comes to mind). He gets emotionally involved. However, he isn’t a knucklehead.

1. People here just love to shoot the messenger.

2. The real problem with this trade isn’t the bench, which could be decent if Tony Allen comes back and Glenn Davis pans out (which he will, if given the chance—the kid has the right instincts). The problem sare (1) age (2) injury risk, and (3) the fact that Jefferson is going to be an absolute stud.

It’s a 2-3 year window, and anything less than a championship means that the trade was a failure.

3. Jeff said

Danny still says he’s not done. Here’s hoping he doesn’t just sign Mutumbo and call it a day. Keep going Danny.

So, Jeff, what would you have Ainge do? He has no salaries left to trade. Even if he put Scalabrine, Tony Allen and Powe in a package, the best they could get is a 5 million-dollar player.

They will probably use the biannual exception to sign House, which leaves the MLE. Who is out there who is even worth the MLE? Varejao is, but he’s restricted and the Cavs would match an offer. Who else? There’s Mutumbo’s former teammate, but he’s staying in Miami. Calvin Booth (YUCK)? Marc Jackson? the plodding, aged PJ Brown?

So if it isn’t Mutombo, what’s your plan, Jeff?

Boo hoo! I expect we’ll be up by 20 quite often entering the 4th quarter, so our awful bench will have plenty of time to improve!

In 1996 I had the same thoughts about our one-time rivals, the Lakers. They had stripped the roster bare in order to clear up the necessary cap space to sign Shaq, giving up valuable role players like Vlade Divac, George Lynch, Anthony Peeler and Derek Strong. I laughed at what I perceived to be Jerry West’s folly in tearing apart his playoff caliber roster to obtain one guy.

KG is a dominant player, Powe and Davis should be a more than adequate replacement for Gomes, Telfair and Green are borderline rotation guys, and the picks the C’s gave are at least 22 months away from putting on a cap on Draft Night. If the C’s are mainly concerned with their 8th and 9th men on the roster, then they are in pretty good shape.

Eyeore II said

The NBA is all about the stars; that’s what wins games. The bench merely has to be “good enough.”

That is a cliche that may be true in the regular season but not in the playoffs. Their weak bench one reason why Phoenix has made early exits from the playoffs, in contrast to San Antonio, which has a deep veteran bench that includes Robery Horry, Brent Barry, Fabroicio Oberto and Michael Finley.

Why does this keep saying my comment is too short?

Just re read Ryan’s article and the final paragraph says it all. I agree with it. But does anyone think DA doesn’t know this? Obviously more needs to be done, but we’ve taken a huge step, based on a 3 or 4 year window of opportunity, and there is time to add the necessary players. Next year is supposed to be a good year for free agents, two of whom are Ryan Gomes and Al Jefferson. And shouldn’t the T’Wolves have done their due diligence in getting an extension for Big Al BEFORE the deal was completed as DA did with KG?

In Ryan’s article, he says- Once again Doc Rivers will earn every cent of his salary, this time trying to make a bizarre mismatched conglomeration of real and supposed talent into a proper team.

So basically, this whole article was written to protect Doc against the higher expectations.

Eeyore III, now you’ve heard it. It’s been a big week for all of us. And this statement is meant in jest. It’s been a long time since we’ve been able to just jest. And to show that most are in a good mood, I don’t think I’ve seen one negative Doc statement in this thread. So let me be the first (and I’m a fan of Doc’s). I didn’t like his tie at THE press conference.

Ryan’s column is right — but obvious too. This team cannot go cheap NOW. You don’t buy a Bentley and then skimp on the rims.

Galiza Ceive:

Every bench you mention is better. What the Celtics lack right now are guys who can make open shots (Eddie House helps there) and play defense (still waiting there). Every move they make the rest of the way has to be in that spirit.

Aged PJ Brown is a good fit, but not for the full MLE. The problem Ryan points out is a big one, but better to have this problem (stars without worker bees) instead of the reverse.

I agree with the idea that the deal could have been done without Gomes, but “Who” is right – if you weren’t in the room then you were in the peanut gallery, which is what this blog is. Shaughnessy is the worst but Ryan is also a guy who has never actually had to do it, just write about it. A peanut specialist in a peanut gallery. Nothing more. In Ryan’s defense though he does have an article to write and that was a valid subject.

The vaunted Celtics bench in the 80’s had Rick Carlisle and Jerry Sichting types. I expect Eddie House is better. Our bench will be fine. Scalabrine’s worst play was when he tried to make up for the clueless, no move offense of the young guys. In this group, I think we’ll love his selfless play. E. House isn’t the pure PG of B. Knight but we did need another shooter since T.Allen is a big “Maybe”. And D.Mutombo would be perfect. A classic long 5 to spell Perk. In Scal/Baby/Powe we have enough 4/5 hustlers.

I know that I’ll be watching the TWolves box scores and hoping our guys do well but not too well. But, c’mon Danny pulled off the near impossible. Once ping pong balls #1 & #2 went elsewhere he was faced with a terrible predicament.

If you can’t give him “Props” for what he’s pulled off I would suggest to you that you are a loser, and secretly like being a loser.

ryan has nothing to lose.

he’s one of the few national commentators to criticize to trade, so if it doesn’t pan out, he ends up being right. and he can and will point it out.

if it does pan out, the celtics are in the mix for a championship, and no one will remember, or care that he disagreed with the trade(s).

There is plenty of talent left on the Celtics. TA if health is a huge plus, Scal is a solid role player who knows where to be and when to be there and how to compliment star players, Powe showed he is a solid role player (Defense, Rebounding, Tenacity), Brandon Wallace showed as much “talent” and promise as Green ever has, Baby Davis is still intriguing talent. Plus there are FAs to be signed. Olowakandi would fit nicely here and may, once again, decide to elevate his game to what it could have been given there would be no pressure on him whatsoever.

I think you’re going to find that the “pressure” is placed squarely on the shoulders of the 3 stars (who will handle it just fine), which will take pressure off of players like Rondo, Perk, and co and allow them to play loose and do the things that they do best.

I’m as optomistic as I have ever been with the Celtics since Reggie died. 50 games, barring injury EC Finals, possible title depending on who we match up against.

Eyeore II, with all do respect you are abysmally wrong.

In 1981 and 1984 their 6th man was Kevin McHale. Enough said.

In 1981 they also had Rick Robey, Gerald Henderson and M.L. Carr.

In 1984 They also had Henderson, Scott Wedman(a former all-star who scored 12,000 points in his NBA career), Quinn Buckner and Carr.

Those were absolutely loaded teams, just as San Antonio is now.

Galiza Ceive – love the bench comparisons

PJ Martinez – Good post, I really think that of the “bench” players(Gomes, Wally, Green & Telfair), the Celts will miss only Gomes.

I woke up agreeing with second item of Bric’s second point and that is, the team is one rolled ankle from being shut down (but then again most teams are in that boat).

Let’s hope the first part of the scheudle is easy, because the young guys (Davis, Powe and a healthy Allen) are going to need to get some serious playing time to make an impact down the stretch.

oh Bob give it a rest, someone always has to be the it’s not guarenteed guy!, And Bob got picked to do an article like this. If it wasnt him then it would be someone else doing it. I do remember BOB lobbying the C’s to get another big name. And Guess what Bob you have to give up something to get something.

yea bob’s a loser.

This is the roster. Who are we going to get? Keep going Danny? Going where? There’s no one to trade, no one to trade for, and no one with much value to sign. We’re stuck with the guys we have, save for adding a washed-up veteran looking for some easy cash.

Next year will be a big-time free agent class. And we won’t be able to afford any of them. The best case for the future will be adding someone with the MLE, but when was the last time a really good player went for that? We’ve made our bed, and now we’ll have to lie in it. Who’s going to back up KG and more importantly, Perk (what can he play? 25 minutes a game, maybe?)? Powe? Mutumbo? Big Baby? Powe isn’t a legitimate 4 or 5. He couldn’t get minutes on last year’s woeful team, what makes anyone think he’ll be transformed into an honest-to-goodness NBA player this year. Big Baby? That’s just a fantasy. He’s too short and too fat to be anything but owned.

The only NBA-caliber player off the bench will be Tony Allen. And considering the severity of his latest injury, it’s probably too much to hope that he’ll be the player he was last season.

As far as the benches someone listed above, the sad thing is that all of those teams – as bad as the benches are – have better benches than Boston. Detroit and Chicago will have far superior benches. Much of our bench wouldn’t be able to make the roster on any other team.

With the Gay/Foye/Roy pick Danny gave away & the 5th pick this year Al Jefferson, Danny Ainge had a chance to build the Celts into contenders for a decade. He’s squandered it. The last 2 months have been an absolute worst-case scenario, starting with the lottery.

why not make a run at anderson varajao? sure cleveland will probably match but at least you take a shot at getting a young player with playoff experience who would give you front court depth, energy and defense. Worst case ( bsides paying luxury tax) cleveland matches and they are forced to spend money. I know this has no chance of happening but I think he would be ideal on this team.

And why did Danny have to relinquish two No. 1 draft picks? Am I the only one who thinks this stuff matters? There is nothing to suggest the Celtics won’t once again be a horrible defensive team.

Danny gave up 2 first round picks because we are not going to get the number 1 on either 2008 or 2009 anyway plus nobody among the present collegiate stars -including the projected number 1 or 2 picks for 2008 or 2009 – will ever come close to KG’s talent and skills even if he could have reached the age of 33 or 34.
Rondo has to take up some of the leadership roles for this team just like Tony Parker did in San Antonio. He needs to and he has to especially in the early part of the season so he may adjust well when playoff nears.

Guys, Bob is just trying to get some buzz for his not-as-good-as-PTI TV show. I’d bet anything he doesn’t even know that one of the picks was most likely at 2nd rounder. I mean it’s one day after the trade and he’s whaling on the bench. If this was October, maybe, but…

Wildblue: they also had solid players like Walton, Carr, Buckner, and Wedman, and had Cornbread starting instead of McHale for many years. To compare this bench to any bench the Celts had in the 80s prior to 1987 would be ridiculous.

My concerns aren’t what a strategy of one year players does to erode the high investment in KG, PP, RA, only to have chaos in the backups, who will be rotated in with these guys.

Understanding roles, repetition, chemistry, on and off the court, plays heavily in their success.

I can appreciate the luxury tax issue, but it makes no sense to go out and buy that Lambergini and then put low grade tires on it.

TNCeltic, my point about the 80’s bench, which Bob Ryan is locked in a time warp over, is that it wasn’t “gold” to the end of the bench. Walton was best back up center in history, for sure. Guys like Wedman were made by being with the core starters. Such contributors become such by being in a winning environment. We will have a Wedman off the bench this year. I’m not sure who it is. I wouldn’t compare our starting 5 with that era but Ryan was talking bench in his article.

If we had Kevin McHale in his prime coming off the bench this year, even I would safely predict an NBA title.

Alas, Brian Scalabrine is no Kevin McHale.

Let me add that the 1984 team was so loaded that Danny Ainge could only get 16 minutes a game and averaged 5.4 ppg. Weak bench, eh?

This is a ridiculous discussion.

I agree with Brick. People really DO like to shoot the messenger.

Look, like I said yesterday, we’re better. If folks stay healthy and we get a couple breaks (hey, we’re due aren’t we?), the team could win a lot of games and make it to the finals.

But Ryan’s just saying what a bunch of folks have been saying: there are a lot of holes on the team that aren’t easily fixable. And it’s a helluva roll of the dice to spend almost $60M on three guys in their thirties, two of whom have had some injuries. We also have a coach who has never won a playoff series before. So there’s that…

I’m not giddy and I’m not pessimistic. We’ve got the best player in the NBA. That’s nice. We’ve got a couple other pretty good players. That’s nice too. We’re in the mix for the Eastern Conference title. That’s a whole lot nicer than 58 losses!

But banner 17? Fourth quarter “garbage time” like it was in ‘86? No. I’m happy to have a team worth watching this year, but I’m not delusional.

Hate to spoil the party but while we’re taking a long look at the adequacy of our bench, why aren’t we equally concerned about the two vacancies on that bench which could be missed most of all?

Since this team must compete at BOTH ends of the court, why so little concern about that missing defensive guru we’ve all talked about?

Wycsend great post. I feel the same way as you in that we all need to realize no team is a lock to win the whole thing (only 1 out of 30 teams can win it) and that we won’t know how this team will work out until the games are played.

Everybody knows this team has a really weak bench right now and it is going to have to make due with what’s out there this summer. Hopefully by next year some of these 2nd rounders on our roster will come into their own, we make a solid 1st round pick next year and then sign some of the better free agents that are available.

Before the trades all we could do is hope that in 3 or 4 years our young players would pan out and none of them would get injured. At least now it’s a sure thing that we will be able to compete for #17. Let’s enjoy it.

First of all, the evidence that this was a spectacular trade is that we are now comparing this team with the Spurs ans asking what needs to happen to get us to their level. Last year, we were comparing ourselves with Memphis and wondering who would finish last!

Second, the need for a classic point guard disappeared the day you got Garnett. Doc’s high post offense will put the ball in KG’s hands to direct the offense, which is ideal. He is not a black hole. Quite the contrary, if you watched any of Minny’s games over the last 3 years, KG often brings the ball up the floor HIMSELF to start the offense. The problem was that, just like LeBron last year, KG had to start the offense, then get the ball back to be the primary finisher. Now, he’s got the quintessential finisher in Paul Pierce, who is at his best when he has no play-making responsibility. Then , on the other side, you’ve got Ray Allen, who has been unfairly characterized as a spot-up shooter. He can finish in a number of ways as well.

Much like the Bulls teams of the 90s who relied on Pippen in the same way. The PGs for those Bulls teams (Hodges, Paxson, Armstrong, Kerr) where all one-dimensional specialists in either outside shooting or defense (Armostrong). Similarly, with KG running the offense, the PG for the Cs next year will need to be a specialist. Our starter, Rondo, will specialize in defense, while our backup, House, will specialize in outside shooting. Doc will be able to pick between the two late in games depending on what is most needful.

Third, filling out the roster is not a matter of ownership spending the money. There are only so many exceptions left to work with. We can’t afford any more than people like Eddie House and veteran minimum guys like Mutombo. So, to expect anything more this year is unrealistic. However, after a year of creating a team identity and style, I expect next year’s team to really compete. That gives Danny one more go at the draft and one more summer of MLE and veteran’s exemption money to work with. That’s when we’ll really be ready.

Eyeore: the thing is, Wedman, Walton, etc were capable of playing a big role if necessary. Wedman was a former star player at the end of his career. He gave them the good shooter come playoff time, same as Sichting did for a short while. Carr, Buckner, likewise were solid players at the end of their careers. They were tested veterans who had previously produced and knew how to fit in and how to play a role. The closest thing we have to players of their capability is Tony Allen, who is coming off of a devastating knee injury, and may never be the same player he was before.

Eddie House, Brian Scalabrine, and Leon Powe? None of them have every really done anything. There is no way to compare them to the benches the great teams had, even ignoring the fact that for much of that era, McHale came off the bench and Maxwell was a solid starter. We’re going to need 60-100 minutes a night from guys like this, and not to be too blunt about it, but they’re scrubs. Nothing more.

Brick, re: the bench. You forgot ‘86—Walton (hof backup to hof Parish), Wedman, Sichting. I think what might be the common denominator is a solid 8 man rotation. As to the unbelievable positive comments about Scals, I agree. He’s a good role player with a GOOD team. I think Scals will become relevant again.

Guys,,, slow down.

The league is more watered down now then back in 1986. More teams have been added to the league 7 new teams since 1986

So what you have is less talent on teams as been evident that teams now carry 1-2 Superstars.

I still think if healthy Paul, Allen, and Garnett will carry this team a long way and I’m sure they will be playing 35-42 min a game. You have to, why bring them here; not to sit on the bench.

The keys and success to the team depend upon how much Rondo and Perkins are able to contribute. There contributions and their development is crucial.

I still believe in Leon Powe, Glen Davis, Tony Allen, even Brian Scalabrine will contribute off the bench. Pruitt and Wallace are work in progress and won’t see much floor time.

One other thing to remember about our bench is that they will always have one of the 3 out there with them at all times. It won’t be like we’ve had in the past when Paul Pierce would sit down for a rest and everyone was like ooooooooooooh my who’s going to score?

We are not in that bad of shape as Ryan suggests. He just hasn’t let go of the past and realized the game has changed tremendously. One player (Lebron, Wade) can carry a team. In our case we have 3 that can do that now and our supporting cast granted is not as good as some of the other quality teams, but give it a chance

Just another hater, who doesn’t truly knowing what the Celtics have. As far as no teams willing to swap are 4-12 for theirs, has anyone seen the Sacramento Kings line-up lately?

I think the Celts will put together enough role players to get by, and the team will be carried by their stars.

I think a bigger concern for me than depth is Rondo. I love his potential, but he is completely unproven and may not be ready yet. PG happens to be a pretty important position in the NBA, and the Celts have a lot riding on Rondo. They have a few years to contend with the current team, and by the time Rondo develops into what they think he will be the 3 stars might already be slowing down.

They have a lot riding on Rondo. I guess there isn’t a lot of choice, but they need to him get experienced quickly.

The best guy off the bench for the Cavs last year was Daniel Gibson. What resume did he bring to the job? None. Detroit’s 6th man is McDyess. Who’s next? Jason Maxiell? Who was he before playing behind Rasheed Wallace?

We don’t need great players. We need guys that do one or two things well that you can plug in here and there. These names are not impressive, but they don’t have to be. Look at the Lakers three-peat teams. After Shaq and Kobe they had a bunch of role players who have done nothing without them (expect for Horry, who continues to be the prototypical gunner). We must stop underestimating the impact of our three stars. They are the best trio in the league. Reading these posts I don’t think that fact has really sunk in to people. The best trio in the league! We don’t need good, well-rounded bench players. We need a bunch of one-dimensional specialists who fill needs. Eddie House is a great signing. Mediocre all-around player, but a GREAT shooter. See what I’m saying?

I agree AR.

Yes, we might be one ankle sprain away from serious trouble, but exactly who on the contenders list is not? Duncan goes down does San Antonio contend? If Dirk goes down does Dallas contend? Lebron goes down (stop laughing)? Nash goes down . . .
Rasheed goes down . . . We saw what happend with no D Wade.

We might be vulnerable to injuries, but so is everyone else.

Eeyore III said:
  Brick: Wedman, Robey, ML Carr etc. are just the kind of players that will be on our bench, when all is said and done. In 1981, ML Carr averaged 3 points and .8 assists a game: figures that compare favorably to Eddie House.

In 1984, Wedman averaged 6 points and 2 rebounds a game; Buckner 4 points and 3 assists. Wow!

With those guys it wasn’t about the stats. It was about ML beating the crap out the guy he was defending, his sense of humor to keep the team loose, etc. And it could be just about one of these guys hitting the big shots. ML did that too despite the number. When ML wanted to retire, after ’86, I believe, Larry talked him into coming back because of the intangibles he gave to the team. Intangibles is often what the bench can bring to make a team a winner.

Same argument applies to age and “lots of miles.”

Exactly what superstar led team is immune to this? D. Wade’s shoulder is already damaged and he gets beat up all the time, Nash (33)is older than KG, PP, and RA. Duncan is 31, he’s older than Garnett no? You telling me Lebron doesn’t get smacked around more than Pierce? Stoudamire and Marion are both 29 (soon 30) and Stoudamire has had a serious knee injury. Rasheed and Billups are 33 and 31 respectively, Dirk is 30.

Propheci doom and gloom all you want, talk about what “might” happen all you want, but everyone else with NBA Title gleam in their eye is in the same boat.

Rondo and Perk and TA are probably our 4th, 5th, and 6th most valuable players from the league’s perspective, and by playoff time will register the same rank in terms of minutes. With 1 and 2 years under their belts, respectfully, Big Baby and Powe will be quite useful as well with one of them a solid rotational player.

House, Scal and Dikumbo (or similar) will be of limited but targeted use as veterans. Wallace, Pruitt and the other new guys are wild cards, but one of them will probably be of use by then as well.

That’s 12 guys across the positional landscape. Call 2 of those 12 injured and 1 a bust—and Doc has his 8-man rotation and a spare. Tight but functional.

Jeff, in one respect you were dead wrong! These aren’t the “dog-days” of summer. The sleeping giant has been awakened and based on the recent interest in this blog, he’s not likely to get any rest in the near future.

Time for Bob Ryan to do something uncharacteristicly original, time to give us an UPDATE on self improvement efforts by our Big Three and the other new arrivals.

Danny Ainge and Doc (include Mike Gorman as our "insider") saw something special in Brandon Wallace, much of it gleened from practice. What? No follow-up to this Cinderella story?

tmcdon,

I agree with your basic point, but Stoudamire is 24. Came into the league right out of high school. But, the basic point is solid since he’s missed time for a serious injury as well. Garnett has been healthier than him.

Darn, sorry this front page doesn’t allow for typo edits, but you get who I’m talking about!

Moskqq—a good point on C’s coverage in this town generally. You’ve got 15 guys at least who could be checked in on a couple of times each over the summer. Maybe next year, with the renewed interest, Shira will crank out more of her nice puff pieces and we’ll get more off-season updates across the board.

To Jackie MacMullan’s credit, she did a better job of establishing trust, rapport and an inside channel to the players than has any other reporter over the last 25 years at least. We could use another one of her in her salad days about now.

The biggest problem with not having a solid 8-9 man rotation is that if forces Doc to have ot play the top guys more minutes. Let’s not forget that Eddie House is also coming back off an injury riddled season.

At this point the only guy in our 8 man rotation who didn’t have ‘major’ injury concerns last year was Rondo, and even he had the flare up with plantar. Without a couple extra bench guys there’s going to be a lot of added wear and tear on guys that have had to play a lot of minutes over thier careers.

If everything breaks right this is a team that should challenge for the ECF, but its also a team that could very easily find itself in lottery land with an injury or two.

I read someone commenting on how Dallas and San Antonio have added to thier core guys every year and how that will come with us. THat’s a great theory wehn your core guys are 27, 21 and 26…but when they’re all over 30 the time’s gotta be a little more now don’t you think?

One last thought. What made Jackie so successful? In part it probably had to do with her being of the same age as the players and a legitimate basketball player herself. Hate to be reverse-sexist here, but it may also have had to do with her being a woman, but I’m not sure.

So, if I were the Globe or the Herald, I’d look to a good enough at least through college level player, strongly considering women as well, who can at least write well enough for the paper’s sports editors to work with.

The older white guy who wished he could have been a good player may mirror enough of the league’s execs to be useful, but we want someone the players will respect and confide in.

tmcdon you are a piece of work in always having to call people out about having a different opinion than you. Why cut down the ones who have some doubt? – they might be right

That was uncalled for. I didn’t cut anyone down, I didn’t single out anyone, I didn’t call anyone out. I simply stated that you say we’re one injury away, you can say our players are “over the hill” at the ripe age of 30 (?!), and beat up, but the same holds true for every “contender” (Dallas, San Antonio, Detroit, Cleveland, Miami, Pheonix . .) in the league.

I directed no comments at anyone other than Ancient Red who I said I agreed with. Your attack is uncalled for, Po. Is there another moderator on?

I agree with Ryan that we paid a heavy price to Garnett. But for the last 21 years we have paid a heavy price. I congratulate Danny and Celtic ownership for have the guts to make the Celtics relevant again.
I love Jefferson and Gomes and hate to see them gone from the Celtics.
But by getting Garnett we now have a chance not only to be good but very good. Yes, others need to step up and we need another big man.
Let’s wait and see what happens this year and next before we jump on Ryan’s bandwagon of doom. And as others have pointed out, Bob can’t have it both ways.

I think when it’s all said and done the C’s will be about 8 deep and that’s fine once you’re in the playoffs and assuming health. The depth problem will be an issue if major injuries occur and keep any of the 8 out for key or extended periods.

In the I heard it here first department – Brandon Wallace is going to surprise a lot of people and be a major contributor this year. Sometimes you can just see somebody “has it”. I like Big Baby a lot too.

If the core 3 are so desperate for a title how about each of the taking a slight pay cut? I know this is a little rediculous and I personally would never take a pay cut at my current job. HOWEVER (i feel like stephen a smith), I don’t play a kids game and cutting my salary from 20mill to 18mill wouldn’t seem that big of a sacrifice if it meant fulfilling my “dream” of a title.

I guess my bigger question is: Does the player union allow players to re-structure their salaries?

Screw Bob Ryan, his wanna-be P.T.I. show on NESN absolutely sucks. Doesn’t matter what he says.

Anything:

KG did take something of a paycut. If you can believe the Stein report on ESPN, Garnett signed for about $30 Under his potential (what he could have legal signed for)/ Market value. His highest paid seasons are the next two, and then after that Paul Pierce is the higest paid Celtic. So, KG did take a cut, technically (if you call $51 Mil over 3 seasons a pay cut). As for Pierce and Ray Allen . . . you would think if they wanted to win badly enough . . .

Bob Ryan seems to miss the point that one of those 1st draft picks is one we got from Minny for Wally. So that’s really a wash.

This team is built to have an 8-9 man rotation, which is really what you want for a playoff team.

Someone said Kevin Garnett is a black hole?!? Are you crazy? He averages 4.5 assists for his career! Look it up! How many big men do that?!? How many players do that?!?

You sign a bunch of guys for one-year deals to fill out the roster. You’ve got the big three, and the rest perform their roles. It makes perfect sense.

As for Bob Ryan, there’s a famous saying: Those that can’t do, critic.

Here’s what we are all thinking guys… Anyone ever seen Brickowski and Bob Ryan in the same room at the same time?!

Absolutely horrible article out of a home town writer. I can see that coming from a national writer, but from him? If they are looking to keep Celtics fans as subscribers then they need to have a little less nastiness in what they are putting out there. There are accuracies in his thoughts. We all know that we do need some more help to solidify our chances at a banner. What we don’t need is someone over-exagerating the satus that we are in.

The players association would NEVER allow for thier guys to restructure contracts and take pay cuts. As currently written it’s not allowed per the CBA.

tmcdon- i would appreciate it if you didn’t cut me down. just kidding , appreciate it.

I like the idea (too lazy to see how said it here, but it is here) that the Ryan piece is just a way to tame expectations for THE COACH, b/c he knows he is garbage but just such a nice guy.

The one problem that I have with this trade is that it happened so late into the free agency period that there just aren’t quality players left to sign. Danny’s doing the right thing and signing the best of whats left to one year deals so that when next year rolls around we will have as much cap room as possible to sign a quality big for something close to the full MLE and then hope we can get a sweetheart deal with an aging vet like phoenix got with grant hill. My hope is things finally sour with bibby and he gets bought out.

The argument has been made that all of the good teams are one injury away from trouble. This is true. I think, however, that we’re closer to the edge than some of those elite teams.

Phoenix loses Nash? That’s terrible. Except for the fact that they still have Barbosa to fill in for him. If Ray Allen and/or Pierce goes down we have Brian Scalabrine. If Kevin Garnett goes down, we have a fat 2nd rounder who can’t jump (to put it in the most negative way possible).

A lot will hinge on who Danny brings in. Unfortunately, the people we can afford probably aren’t that great to begin with. Eddie House? A potentially good shooter off the bench, but really, there’s a reason why he’s available for so cheap.

This team can be good. They’ll probably make the playoffs and win a series or two next year. They’ll probably be better the following year with a potential ceiling of the Finals (barring injury, I think San Antonio, Dallas, or Phoenix would wear us down). But let’s keep the rose tinted glasses off.

Finished reading the Bob Ryan article, and if I didn’t know his body of work, I’d wonder how the heck this guy got a column. It’s a bad article. Poorly thought out, overlooks many things. No team in the East has a deep bench. He says two teams have deep benches. That makes it the exception, not the rule. Career back-up for Perkins? He played on an injured foot all year. How can you overlook that and be taken seriously? Rondo doesn’t need to shoot from the outside. He needs to bring the ball up, give it to KG in the high post, and then stay out of everyone’s way. I think he can handle that.

For someone who’s seen as much basketball as he has, I’m stunned he would put something so sloppy out there with his name on it.

Those criticizing Bob Ryan are class-less fanboys who know nothing about basketball. It’s one thing to run off the cliff, but on this blog it’s not enough unless you wear a t-shirt that reads, “Proud to be a lemming.” It’s ridiculous. It’s the same kind of mass idiocy at work as when you see a bunch of teenage chicks dressing like Lindsay Lohan. Of course, when Ryan is proven to be correct, will any of you fess up and/or apologize? Of course not. Because then you’ll be muddying the waters in some reductive arguement about why Gabe Pruitt can be favorably compared to Scott Wedman, or how Brandon Wallace is the best 4 mpg player in the league.

Celtics 2nd teams in the Bird years would have been playoff caliber starting lineups in today’s NBA. Brick is right. That said, NO TEAM now has someone the caliber of Bill Walton — in the only healthy year he had as a pro — as a real 6th man. (Spurs USE Manu off the bench, but he is essentially a starter)

But the Celts role players are not an issue, they are THE issue now. They did the hard thing (fill the core), but now they have to be smart. Find good shooters and defenders to fill around the stars. The acquisiton of Garnett alone merits an A- grade for Ainge’s offseason. To get it to an A , we must wait and see who the complementary pieces are.

We arent talking about getting s defensive minded
assistant coach, because most of us think we still
need to find a head coach. Doc can look good most
of this upcoming season but when the playoffs come
will be so outmanned. we will have to get a new coach
for the 2nd yr of this three yrs of gathering titles.
i say lets not throw this yr away with a poor game
coach just to find out that he really does get outcoached
popovichs of the league

by the popovichs of the league

I’d take the 80’s playes from 4 on over this one by a mile and a half. There really is no comparison unless you weren’t old enough to see the Celts back then. I’d also take the each of our main competitors players from 4 up.

After the our top 3, we have plenty of question marks at this point. I’m hoping DA can fill them, but I suspect we’re going to be rolling the dice on a lot of players who are rookies or sophomores. If they work out, we’ll be very tough. If not, then the talent we were able to surround our top 3 with will be our undoing.

I’d still do the trade, but it’s no slam dunk. Time will tell who got the better of it.

BTW, Ryan is a HOFer. He’s basketball’s answer to Will McDonough and the best I’ve read covering the sport. He didn’t get there because he was stupid, he’s seen more BB than anyone here, and he’s also just the same now as he has always been. He has some good points.

In didn’t talk about 1986 becauase Eyeore III only mentionned 1981 and 1984. But here is some stuff from Ryan concerning the Celtics’ bench during an era that he does know something about, since he was the Celtics’ beat writer:

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/bob_ryan_blog/2007/08/please_sober_up_1.html

collincb has it exactly right. Tiem will tell who got the better of this trade. If the C’s get their championship in the next 2-3 years, it was a successful trade. If an aging Kevin Garnett has to go back to MN as a free agent to win in ring on the back of Al Jefferson, it wasn’t.

Ah, I remember when some idiot traded his veteran all-star center (and future hall of famer) plus the draft rights to another future hall of famer, for a skinny 6-9 kid who hadn’t played a single game in the NBA. And you know what? That deal “worked” for the team acquiring the veteran all-star, because the won a championship two years later.

But the skinny kid won 11 of them.

Someone said Bob Ryan was in the basketball HOF. I just went to the HOF website and his name is not there

Ryan is in the HOF and he has forgotten more than most of us will ever know (read that not in the negative).

His blog post is great – I love when his blood starts boiling. It’s refreshing to have a writer who cares so much.

Bottom line of his blog — supporting cast matters. Can not disagree at all.

The only thing that does not hold in his arguement is that in the 80’s (god the Celts were amazing) the supporting cast was incredibly deep for two reasons:

1. no salary cap limitations on who could sign where
2. There were 7 less teams then (7 × 15 = 105 more players between 23 teams 105 / 23 = almost 5 players per team).

A more fair comparison would be to look at the benches of the last few years and the teams that advanced to the conference finals.

Additional:

the rosters were only 12 players instead of 15 so that meant that there were (23×3) 69 more players on top of the 105 that I mentioned above. So there 173 more players to pick from.

Man o man, can you imagine what the league would look like today (skill set wise) if there were only 23 teams carrying 12 players. That would be some quality hoop!!

Despite what Bob Ryan says, this is only a few days after the trade, we will work on our bench situation.

What I will say though is there is still no other team in the NBA I’d rather be or think has as good a shop as reaching the finals than the Boston Celtics playing in the JV East.

I’ll gladly march on with the Big Trio.

To me you have to pick your poison. So I will take the Big 3, work on improving the bench as much as possible and go head on for the next 3 to 5 years.

In 5 years we may be in shambles, but to me I want to take every possible shot I can on getting #17, and pass the kool aid-even #18. If # 17 doesn’t happen, I’m thrilled at least with the opportunity that #17 is plausible.

Despite our weaknesses we have, other clubs face their own set of weaknesses. Hands down, this club beats last year’s playoffs Cavs 8 out of 10X.

We are definitely the favorite of the East, no worse than the top 3 in the east, bench or no bench. If the Warriors can beat the Mavs, relatively anything is possible.

I’ve not been this jacked up to start a season since we had the old Big 3 (McHale, Chief, Bird).

I can’t argue that the injury gods bite us in the butt again this year, or our bench causes us to collapse, or that we choke in the first round for whatever reason, but gosh darn I just love where we are sitting right now on Aug. 2, 2007.

SShorefan – Show us where it says he is in the HOF. I would think that the Basketball Hall of Fame website that has a huge amount of people on there would be up to date on their own site… The Suffolk County HOF doesn’t count.

Bob Ryan was the 1997 recipient of the Curt Gowdy Award. That’s the Basketball HOF’s award for significant contributions to basketball journalism. You can see his name on a list here – http://www.hoophall.com/awards/bhof-award-gowdy.html Now EJPLAYA, go try and rip the credibility of some other member of the legitimate media. God knows that doesn’t happen every day to the point of tedium on this blog.

John Vitti – Just like everyone else on this site, you included, I will rip anyone I deem necessary. I have a father and you’re not him…

If you think that getting an award FROM the Basketball HOF is the same as being IN the HOF then you are absolutely crazy. That’s like saying that the Celtics ball boy was a member of the Boston Celtics last year.

If you are going to post something then it better be factual unless it is your opinion. If not then you are free game to be corrected. In fact, if it IS your opinion you are still free game to be corrected.

My opinion, and a lot of others on here is that Bob Ryan wrote a nasty article that shouldn’t have been written in that tone. If he wanted to make those points without making everyone that is excited about the Celtics chance of winning another championship think he is calling them idiots, then fine. If he wants to do it in a tone that talks down to everyone and calls them stupid then he, along with you, can get off his high horse!

If he wanted to make those points without making everyone that is excited about the Celtics chance of winning another championship think he is calling them idiots, then fine

That’s among the funniest/saddest things I’ve ever read. If your feelings are so easily bruised by the completely defensible opinions of esteemed basketball writers, you probably should stay off the internet. But I do enjoy the fact that you take the pain inflicted on you by Big Bad Bob’s words and take it out on other posters. Very masculine. Your father must be proud.

Bob Ryan took a typically bombastic and self-referential tone in making the exact same point many of us in here were making. Forget about all that hall-of-game nonsense. Ryan’s been wrong before in spite of his vaunted reputation. (He keeps defending Doc even while conceding he likes him too much to rip him.) But he’s spot-on with his criticism of this trade, and backs it up.
Thank god I didn’t have to weigh in on the comments about the benches for the 1981/84 championship teams. Reflexively quoting stats doesn’t begin to discuss the importance of players like McHale, M.L. Carr, Scott Wedman and Gerald Henderson. I mean, come on! That team won it all because it was deeper than any other team in the league. Plus, the “new” big three isn’t as good as THAT big three and that one had danny ainge and dennis johnson on the floor. we don’t even have to discuss the bench!
Guys, can we please not make it so personal? I’ll criticize other posters in here for their logic, but sheesh, does it have to get so nasty in here? Same team.
Jeff, I strongly urge you to put a clamp down on the more personally oriented posts — and, if necessary, the posters. It’s getting way too hot in here.

Big Easy, I agree, the tone gets despicable amongst posters. I find it tough to turn the other cheek and thus add to the problem, but I think it originates from a common attitude amongst people here that it’s okay to attack those who have so-called-negative things to say about the Celtics. The lack of accountability is likewise, immensely frustrating. People can sling brutal attacks on a decent guy like Bob Ryan and never have to fess up when what he writes about turns out to be accurate. Brickowski is another example. Probably the most intelligent and knowledgeble poster on this board, yet people say the worst kinds of things about him under the guise of I’m just criticizing his attitude about the Celtics. It’s disgraceful. I wish I were a better person and didn’t bite when reading some of this crap, but it seems unfair to let good people get hammered by wrongheaded and overzealous fans.

I am more optomistic about our future over the next few years than Bob Ryan is. He makes some good points and 3-4 years from now we can either be looking up at a banner, possibly even 2 or this can all go south.

As the saying goes: That’s why they play the games.

John Vitti – Maybe when you say the tone gets dispicable in here you should take a close look in the mirror and see if maybe you are throwing gas on the fire. You know that old saying about pointing the finger and there being 4 pointing right back at you?! Stating that I didn’t think Ryan’s article sounded like he was talking down to us is not a —Brutal attack on a decent guy—. It was an opinion of his article. In fact, if you will look closely you will notice that I agreed with what he was saying to a point, just didn’t like the way it was written. Unless you are HIS father, I don’t see where you get where you think I am ripping him to shreds. If you are reading posts and inserting your own definition of the writers tone or feelings into it then the problem is with you. I have no problem at all with Bob Ryan, unlike others on this board that have specifically insulted him and his knowledge.

Things get escalated when you jump into something and start insulting people when you weren’t even a part of the discussion. That is why you got a bitter response back. Go ahead and disagree with the statement that being given an award BY the HOF is the same thing as being in it. You’ve got to be kidding me. That isn’t even debatable.

YOU were the one that turned things personal with your —your father must be so proud— crack. My reply to you was only telling you that just because I disagree with this guys incorrect comment, doesn’t mean that you should be jumping in cracking on and making more of my comment than it was. Who’s being despicable then?! I could have come back with some crack about your father to move it up one, but then it would be getting personal. I haven’t gone there and won’t. Even though you make me want to…

I’m sure thinking that there are a lot of relatives of Bricks on here because there are certainly a few people out there that think Brick can’t defend his own comments. How anyone thinks asking for there to be a less negative tone to the board and more constructive postings can be a personal attack on someone is beyond me. Then again, isn’t that what you and BigEasy were just doing with your ranting. Should everyone be ripping on you guys for the same thing?! I guess that it’s okay for negative people to jump in and tell people how to post if they are disagreeing with a negative poster, but it’s not okay if you aren’t one of the sheep…

EJ, I think you are using the word negative to describe what many consider to be rational criticism. I’ve bought into this trade, BIG TIME, but I can recognize the plain fact that this team will have an incredibly imbalanced bench made up of the free agent refuse no one else wanted and a bunch of young guys who haven’t proven anything.

You may read that last statement as negative, but I see it as a rational assessment of the facts. In the same way, I could describe many of your posts as bordering on cheerleading, or say you have blinders on because you seem unable to see a downside to anything.

But what fun would this site be, and what would any of of us have to gain from visiting it, if every poster was in total agreement. Sounds pretty boring. I enjoy contrarian opinions. I like to be challenged.

I’ve never met Brick, and I’ve criticized him for evoking the Raptors ad nauseum (he’s stopped it recently), but I love having the guy around and respect his opinions, even if they tend to dwell on the negative, just like I love reading your posts and respect your opinions, even when you are disagreeing with me and proving me wrong about something.

I guess what I’m saying, in a long-winded and not very articulate way, is that there has been a tendancy lately to try stiffling criticism by calling it negative and saying people are disciples or relatives of Brick, and it’s sad because the site is more interesting when there’s debate.

Someone mentioned that this league is watered down above and that does count for something nowadays..

Cousin IT – 100% in agreement with the statement about the free agents. My suggestions were for us to resign Knight or Gary Payton and Kandi. How sad is that. I have often been critical about a specific move that they have made. I didn’t want this trade to happen at first either. The fact now is that it doesn’t take them 50 consecutive posts to drill in the fact that they don’t like the move and that even if it turns out better than they think that it won’t matter either because Doc sucks. THAT is the problem I have. Not with contradicting or negative comments. I just wish there were more posts about what to do differently vs. we’re doomed. Every time someone suggests something that could be a good flow of discussion, one of these guys jumps in and turns it to whining about the same thing.

I have appreciated reading your posts and think you have always added great things to the site. I too would be sad if Brick didn’t post on here.