Daily Babble: Despite Appearances, Celts Fans Reveling In the De-Normalization of Losing
by Steve Weinman on Jan 26, 2008 3:02 AM EST
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PrintIndeed, it seems right now that any bunch of C's fans you might pick are mad at half the team at any given time...I say that for the simple reason that unlike most other team fan sites these days, activity here drops off sharply when things are going well whereas the others perk right along as usual. I think other Celtics fans sites have experienced this as well because a number of them have commented on it.
The nature of fan reaction to poor gameplay and losing also seems to be somewhat more extreme this year compared to last season.
Given that Bob tends to be a fairly thoughtful dude, it seemed only worth taking the time to consider his take on this one. That time seems only that much more well spent when one realizes that Bob may well be absolutely right.
All of Steve's daily posts can be found in the CelticsBlog: NBA blog. Check him out!
People like to characterize certain fan bases as groups that love negativity. Some say Boston fans can't live without misery. For some it is Chicago fans. Or maybe New York fans always need drama. The stereotypes abound.
As a native New Yorker who lives and dies with the Celtics, frankly, I'm not sure how geographically unique each fan base is. What I do believe is that there are two factors that could likely apply to any fan base and particularly the Celtics this season that both help explain why Bob's assessment is what it is.
The first is that the higher the stakes become, the less acceptable failure is. Though the Celtics are virtually the opposite of the 24-58 team they were last year, it is to be expected that fans and perhaps others around the team take more issue with losing now than they did last season. This is because when a team is terrible, losing becomes normalized for a fan base.
Whether all of us can admit it or not, losing did to some degree become a part of the routine for Celtics fans last season. Some embraced it to the point of rooting for the team to tank for the draft; some remained frustrated anew with each loss. But by some point shortly after the turn of the calendar, it became evident that this was not a good team and that expecting great things in the won-loss column from the 2006-07 Celtics simply was simply foolish. For much of the fan base, the season became less about winning games and more about seeing progress from the youngsters and finding a reason to hope for the future. Seasons like the one Celts fans went through last year become about looking for silver linings that will allow us a reasonable justification to become neurotic about winning and losing once again in the future.
That future is now in Boston. The pieces Danny Ainge had spent seasons compiling were turned into Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen in two fell swoops, and the team is now set to make a run at an NBA title. It is finally about winning again in Beantown. This is a wonderful thing, and no matter how angry we sound at times, it is my truly held contention that we fans are cognizant of this nearly all of the time. Perhaps not always, but certainly close.
However, with expectations of greatness come both a greater pressure to win and a greater focus on the details. The 'little things' in basketball don't matter so much when none of the 'big things' aren't remotely present. When the team is winning 24 games and can't play defense to save its collective life, the issue of back-up point guard isn't a particularly pertinent one. When the team is getting blown out every other night, who cares about what the eleventh and twelfth men bring to the table? They aren't going to make a sizable enough difference either way. On a team that is already very good and looking to make the jump to great, all those details come back into play. Given the legitimate potential for the team to win, there will also likely be more enthusiasm for discussing them.
As such, it remains my belief that fans will be angriest about losing and most obsessive over attention to detail when losing isn't normalized. The likelihood is that even the most diehard of Celts fans are taking losses harder this season than they did last season. That in its own right is a testament to how far this team has come in such a short time and how incredibly happy the fan base is on a regular basis. The stakes are higher and the fans care more, making the valleys lower than usual but the peaks higher than usual. Works for me.
Because losing isn't a normal part of Boston Celtics basketball anymore. In fact, it is the furthest thing from normal.
It feels good to say that. Really good. Our anger over the 'little things' only further accentuates just how much we enjoy that truth these days.
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IMO, my personal reason for taking losses in a very bad mood is that we gave up Al Jefferson, who already IS an very young All Star caliber type of player, and a bunch of other young players PLUS draft picks for the likes of Garnett and Ray Allen; two aging All Star players, to go with another aging All Star Player/ Like they say; we mortgaged our future to win NOW. So, we must win now the whole enchilada because we have no tomorrow.
We didnt make those trades just to win more games and become a respectable team. We gave a lot to win now. And with each loss, we are finding out the structural weaknesses that will keep us from winning the whole enchilada. Sure, we are going to win a lot more games, BUT, we have needed and continue to need a PG that can shoot the ball and score from the 3 pt line and from everywhere else so the other team doesnt double team our main 3 guns. We also need to upgrade our 5 and/or get another big PF who can score and defend.
Our defense, in spite of why we won last night, has to be upgraded. Rondo steals a lot of balls; but cannot shoot a lick and cannot effectively defend anybody. See Calderon and Telfair in the last 2 games. We also have everybody going all over the floor on defense trying to trap their own shadows; yet we cannot stop the treis; which must be shot from a standing position.
I am seeing that after what we gave away and after we got two excellent players in trades, 3 players will not win a Pennant. Sure, all teams ned ate least 3 very ggod players to win and we got them; Fine. But our supporting cast is not there and all we have done so far is geared to win NOW or next year. The future is now or all has gone for naught. We have an aging team where physical breakdowns will show up as they must, and we have nobody to replace any of the BIG 3.
So we better start plugging up the 2 holes we still have cause Big Baby, Rondo and Perks are not going to give us the supporting cast to enable us to win the whole thing before time runs out on the BIG 3. That is why at least this fan is so critical with each loss; they show what we lack to win it all.
I’m embarrassed at KG’s antics after the game last night.
Sometimes I think his intensity is forced, like last night.
Kevin, we know who you play for.
I don’t need you pulling up your shirt and furiously pointing at the Celtics logo screaming ‘MOTHER F*CKER’ over and over and over again.
It’s a little obnoxious.
I actually felt bad for Minnesota.
mcpu40 said:
I’m embarrassed at KG’s antics after the game last night.
Sometimes I think his intensity is forced, like last night.Kevin, we know who you play for.
I don’t need you pulling up your shirt and furiously pointing at the Celtics logo screaming ‘MOTHER F*CKER’ over and over and over again.It’s a little obnoxious.
I actually felt bad for Minnesota.
Everything about KG is about TEAM. He wasn’t touting himself, he was touting his TEAM. The team played poorly, we won, and KG was showing emotion. I didn’t know about the words which probably could have been unsaid, but that’s who he is. When a driver is speeding and almost hits you and, more importantly, your dog you are mad (emotional) and the words that fly out of your mouth aren’t kindly. I recently saw a “Beyond The Glory” program on KG and he’s been that way since he was a kid. The important thing is this guy cares and he wears his heart on his sleeve so don’t be embarrassed, just revel in it.
“WE” didn’t win, the Celtics won.
And I can’t help the way I feel TrueGreen, that’s what I was thinking during KG’s emotional display last night after the game.
I’m as big a Celtics fan as anyone on this board.
But last night’s post game antics really rubbed me the wrong way.
They BARELY beat a bad team last night.
That type of show should be reserved for a hard fought win over San Antonio in the finals, not a cruddy win over an even cruddier team before the ALl Star Break…IMO.
I know who Kevin is…we all do.
And I saw that Behind the Glory too.
Believe me, I’m beyond happy with the team’s success and that KG is here.
He’s a fierce competitor to be sure.
But watching that, well…I was embarassed for the team and felt bad for Minnesota. That’s the way I felt…and I’d guess that Red was a little embarrassed too looking down from the rafters.
As to reaction to losses by the C’s, I take it harder this year. Last year I expected it. This year the losses seem harder to take, especially in the games they should win, but haven’t played well. The fans were booing last night because the Celtics weren’t playing well. This is the history of the franchise. The fans know when they’re under performing, for whatever reason. The fans here know the game. To me this is good. Good Celtic teams listen to the fans. What I don’t like is all the nitpicking that goes on by us bloggers. It’s no longer about the coach, GM or individual players. We have the players that can get it done. The team is going thru a bad stretch now and they don’t need us to tell them. We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I find myself getting mad at Ray for not hitting shots. There has to be a reason which we are not privy to. Some have suggested there’s something physically wrong with KG. He hides it well, but we saw it last nite. We found out about Posey’s hand after he wasn’t playing well, but we get mad at him. We question why Perk hasn’t played late in games. Something was revealed about that last nite. And we question why Perk isn’t playing at certain times while at the same time we’re saying he’s incompetent. I think we all need to chill. We need to realize this team has not been together long. We need to realize that things go on behind the scenes that we don’t know about. But it’s been a great ride and I think our feeling the losses harder is a sign of that, as the writer of the article states, we expect alot more than we have in the last 20 or so years.
mcpu40, I know you’re entitled to the way you feel. I just see it another way. KG, looking back, might even be embarrassed by the way he acted, but I don’t think, that in certain situations, you analyze your actions, you just act, especially when you’re someone who shows your emotions like he does. I would really have felt bad if he was touting himself.
it is a long season full of ups and downs. we fans get into just as many slumps as do the players. we know they’re good but i never have the feeling going into a game with this team that i did with the bird or the russell teams that you expected to win every night.the tommy teams were always going to give it their all to the last drop. this team is way too dependent on kg, and after him there is a drop off. as good as pp is, he can’t carry a team by himself, and ray has really been on and off. rondo and perk contribute but really are second tier players who need to develop their games. the bench is a good mixture of old and new and works hard.injuries at the end of the season will determine the playoffs. if this team is healthy, they are not a sure thing, but they will do very well and i hope even better, but i would not bet the bank on it.
Reyquila,
I definitely understand where you’re coming from. I think your point here goes right to the center of my piece as well — that the stakes are higher, so it is natural for us as fans to be more on edge. Last year, we expected this team to grow as the season went along, not to win a title. This year’s team isn’t about growth. As you said, it’s about winning the whole thing, and the closer we get to that point in the season, the higher the pressure will mount. Much thanks for writing in.
-sw
mcpu40,
I couldn’t see last night’s game, but given your account, it certainly doesn’t sound like KG’s behavior afterwards was particularly exemplary.
That said, I do find your differing reactions to Paul’s ejection on Monday and KG’s antics last night intriguing, particularly given that it was Paul whose behavior had a better chance to hurt the team and likely could have been (I don’t know what exactly was said between him and Q) just as lacking in class. Perhaps that comes from the fact that you’re an admitted Pierce guy and you’re going to be partial to him? That’s perfectly natural and a reasonable enough explanation. Or is there some other part of it that really gets to you? I’m not intimating that you’re not a KG guy or that you have some unreasonable PP bias, but just that in the same way that you and many others suggest that folks are always out to get at Pierce, would you think that your differing reactions come from your own affinity for one player over the other? No mark on you; I’m just curious.
I was also intrigued by you making the point to TrueGreen that the Celtics won rather than “we won.” It opens up the issue of the usage of “we” with regard to sports fans, and I’m interested to hear rationales from people who support the use of the term and those who don’t. It makes sense to me for traditional journalists to be careful not to use “we,” and I understand the idea of maintaining a cognizance that we as fans are not legally affiliated with the Celtics organization, but I also see the value in using a term that allows people to feel like they are a part of something bigger than they are.
For my part, when I write a column, you will just about never see me refer to the Celtics or any other team as “we.” That said, I have no qualms about using it in the forums or when I’m just conversing with people as a fan rather than as a writer. But I think it’s an interesting concept, and I would like to hear more from you and others on this board regarding it.
Thanks for writing in.
-sw
TrueGreen said:
As to reaction to losses by the C’s, I take it harder this year. Last year I expected it. This year the losses seem harder to take, especially in the games they should win, but haven’t played well. The fans were booing last night because the Celtics weren’t playing well. This is the history of the franchise. The fans know when they’re under performing, for whatever reason. The fans here know the game. To me this is good. Good Celtic teams listen to the fans. What I don’t like is all the nitpicking that goes on by us bloggers. It’s no longer about the coach, GM or individual players. We have the players that can get it done. The team is going thru a bad stretch now and they don’t need us to tell them. We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I find myself getting mad at Ray for not hitting shots. There has to be a reason which we are not privy to. Some have suggested there’s something physically wrong with KG. He hides it well, but we saw it last nite. We found out about Posey’s hand after he wasn’t playing well, but we get mad at him. We question why Perk hasn’t played late in games. Something was revealed about that last nite. And we question why Perk isn’t playing at certain times while at the same time we’re saying he’s incompetent. I think we all need to chill. We need to realize this team has not been together long. We need to realize that things go on behind the scenes that we don’t know about. But it’s been a great ride and I think our feeling the losses harder is a sign of that, as the writer of the article states, we expect alot more than we have in the last 20 or so years.
TrueGreen,
I think you have a fairly good grasp of what’s going on. As you’ve noted, like it or not, the nitpicking is going to come as the stakes grow higher, and while the nitpicking may or may not always be warranted — and can often be a pain — it is most certainly a sign of how wonderfully things have changed in Beantown. Thanks for writing in.
-sw
Steve,
What Paul did during the Knick game was just that in the heat of the moment, during the game. What Kevin did last night was after the game had ended…he made a complete and total spectacle of himself.
Moreover, all cameras were on Kevin and I counted at least four “f-bombs” while he screamed and pointed at the Celtics logo on his shirt.
My point is yeah, Paul got kicked out of the Knick game. It was stupid.
But I believe in Paul and his ability to move on and learn from it.
I fully anticipate Kevin’s antics to take place again, and again, and again, post game…and I just don’t find it at all necessary.
As I said, I think Red would be quite embarrassed by such a display, especially given WHO the Celtics were playing, WHEN during the season this game occured, and HOW close the game was (and should have have been).
KG also got T’d up during the game for banter with Jefferson.
Perhaps I am a Pierce guy, he’s been here for so long and I watch just about every game there is.
KG has played 41 games for the Celtics now, and he’s tearing at his shirt, pointing at the Celtics logo, SCREAMING “THAT’S WHAT I’M F*CKING TALKING ABOUT” over, and over, and over, again. We all can read lips and I have a little boy.
That said, I’m happy they won…regardless.
As for referring to the team as “we”, I try not to do that…but that’s just me.
mcpu40,
Thanks for getting back to me. Your response is fair enough on all fronts.
I definitely understand your problem with the context in which the celebration of this victory occurred, although I do think the language is an issue that goes beyond context. But I follow what you’re saying, and to some degree the “act like you’ve been there before” attitude makes a fair bit of sense, particularly if you find the manner of KG"s exuberant celebrations to be offensive.
Your willingness to take the time to write in and keep up dialogue here remains very much appreciated.
-sw
I dont believe Kevin is going to stop his emotional ways. He seems to be a happy camper in Boston; he enjoys the wins; he sems to enjoy his new teammates; mauybe he cannot avoid exteriorizinghis emotions; maybe he can but is hoosing not to; he probably thinks his being overly emotionalsometimes helps the other guys get pumped up too. He believes he is the leader of the team and as such, he has the responsibility of doing whatever it takes to get the other players take it up another notch. He is not going to change being what he is so either love him or not love him as much. I rather see him doing what he does than watch Perk’s face full of anger after every play he gets involved in. I dont think Perk’s angry face goes well with the referees and we know they have ways of getting back at him, if they believe he feels wronged with every whistle. We need another big, tall guy down low to help out Perks and Kevin. One injury to either one and there goes our season.We cannot afford that.
We also have to improve our defensive system again. We have gone away from what we were doing earlier in the year. I see Perk going all over the floor trying to trap someone. We did that with Pitino and Obrien and it cost us season after season. We need to learn to defend the pick and roll. I just dont see much improvement in that. I know our win and loss record; but our last 20 games havent been like our first 20. teams are learning to play us; Looks like we are not modifying our defensive system to cope with the changes being mad by the other teams.
Defense wins championship; so lets do something about it; we seem to be happy with not plugging certain weaknesses that we have; that will cost us in crunch time. If this happen we will go back to our pointing fingers at Doc and Ainge and at certain players and that Old adaggio: “The more things change the more they stay the same” will come back to haunt us. Lets get another big and another PG that can score. Ive been saying that since the first chat session years ago. lol Peace.
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