Daily Babble: Four Non-MVP Candidates Who Mean Plenty To Their Respective Teams

by Steve Weinman on Jan 8, 2008 1:49 AM EST in NBA Articles

On one hand, it is only January, and already MVP talk is heating up. On the other hand, we're in the middle of January, so what better to do than babble about who will take home the individual hardware come summer?

Fair points from both sides. So we'll firmly sit the fence this time around and settle for the middle ground, in which we give you four guys (not named Howard, Paul, James, Garnett or Bryant) who won't legitimately compete for the trophy but who do make all the difference in the world to their respective teams:

Jamaal Tinsley, Indiana: The Pacers surprised many by jumping off to a 15-13 start under new head coach Jim O'Brien. The on-court catalyst? Their improved point guard. Tinsley is still as putrid a shooter as ever, but he is moving the ball with a fervor not seen since the very beginning of his career (dishing 8.7 dimes per game), getting his points, controlling the offense with more authority than ever before and -- the occasional shooting excepted -- doing his best to stay away from the types of bad decisions and situations that got him labeled a head case in the first place. It comes as no shock that of the Pacers' recent 1-6 string, Tinsley only suited up for the first two games before being sat down with injuries. The man has been playing while banged up all season, and one can expect the Pacers to become far more dangerous once he returns to displace neophyte (hey, Walt) Andre Owens from the lineup.

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Comments

Traditionally, the NBA MVP award goes to the best player on the best team (or best within the team’s conference, and the player is a standout). I think anyone except KG would be considered a non MVP candidate. Kobe, Dwight Howard, LeBron< Duncan, etc, are all “candidates,” but their teams aren’t doing as well as the Celtics. You could make an argument that these aforementioned players also belong in the same boat as the guys Steve highlighted.

by TradeProposalDude on Jan 8, 2008 5:10 AM EST reply actions

the mvp is zach randolph. by leaving portland, he allowed them to make the second best turnaround in the nba.

by nazzbo on Jan 8, 2008 8:01 AM EST reply actions

Caron Butler’s career year only further highlights his over-achievement in Arenas’ absence. He certainly deserves notice and congrats but he’s still not playing on the same level as Pierce as mentioned in a preious thread.

by BleedinGreen417 on Jan 8, 2008 8:24 AM EST reply actions

Steve, thanks for the fresh perspectives. I’ve enjoyed reading your articles. You’re a great addition to my daily Celtics fix. :D

by BleedinGreen417 on Jan 8, 2008 8:26 AM EST reply actions

TradeProposalDude said:
Traditionally, the NBA MVP award goes to the best player on the best team (or best within the team’s conference, and the player is a standout). I think anyone except KG would be considered a non MVP candidate. Kobe, Dwight Howard, LeBron< Duncan, etc, are all “candidates,” but their teams aren’t doing as well as the Celtics. You could make an argument that these aforementioned players also belong in the same boat as the guys Steve highlighted.

TradeProposalDude,

Interesting thought, and while I think perhaps you could make the argument you allude to, it isn’t necessarily that cut and dry, at least not this season. Even if the Cavs don’t end up anywhere close to the Celts record-wise, if they can make any sort of second-half run, Bron will be (deservedly) given a ton of credit for what will likely be him doing a ton with very little around him. Howard’s development has been instrumental in turning his team into a legitimate Eastern threat with far greater speed than anyone expected. The Hornets are sitting at an astounding 23-11 mostly because Chris Paul is playing like the out-of-this-world point guard that he is. As much as KG is doing for this team — and there is no need to explain that to the fans on this board — there remain several viable candidates.

I’ll likely be putting something together regarding a mid-season MVP look over the next month, but in the meantime, I’ll bring up one of my favorite MVP evaluation models, courtesy of Bill Simmons (like him or not, I think this one makes sense): What would happen if you replaced a given candidate with an above-average player at his position? How does that impact his team? And whose team would it impact most greatly? Worth considering. I would be curious to hear your thoughts on this now and again as we continue through the season. Thanks for writing in.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Jan 8, 2008 11:20 AM EST reply actions

nazzbo,

Love it. Perfectly put.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Jan 8, 2008 11:20 AM EST reply actions

BleedinGreen417,

Much thanks for the kind words. They always mean quite a bit coming from readers, and they are much appreciated. That said, the credit belongs to you and the other readers on this site who continue to initiate and enhance thought-provoking discussion, which makes my role that much easier and that much more fun. I’m thrilled to be here writing and interacting with the excellent base of readers we have here at CelticsBlog. Looking forward to hearing more from you.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Jan 8, 2008 11:22 AM EST reply actions

Steve,

Right now, the only players I would place in front of Caron Butler are KG, LeBron, Kobe, Howard, Nash, Roy, and Chris Paul… maybe Pierce too. Okay, so that’s like 8… but what I’m trying to say, is that Butler is a legitimate candidate (top 10).

I guess your point is more or less the same, so nevermind.

by Big Ticket on Jan 8, 2008 11:52 AM EST reply actions

Big Ticket,

A solid point. While I wanted to push Butler’s name out there, I hadn’t even really thought about where he would fall in the MVP race overall, because there are many candidates either more worthy or possessing more recognizable names, but you’re absolutely right that he falls right there around the top 10 most valuable players in basketball this season. Besides the folks you named (and I’m not entirely sure where I go with Pierce), the only other two debatables (as in, possibly more worthy than Butler) I can think of off the top of my head are Jason Kidd and, much as I hate to admit it, Stephen Jackson out in Oakland. Jax’s presence has made all the difference in bringing that team back from an 0-6 start, and Kidd is playing out of his mind to keep the Nets fighting thus far this season.

Any others you can think of?

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Jan 8, 2008 12:06 PM EST reply actions

Butler is the best player on the Wizards, even when Gil is healthy.

by slam on Jan 8, 2008 12:06 PM EST reply actions

slam,

Would you say then that this team would have been hurt more to lose him than Arenas for the length of time that Hibachi has been hurt? I know that this has become a somewhat polarizing issue around the Wiz this season, but I would be curious to hear more from you on this.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Jan 8, 2008 12:09 PM EST reply actions

Candidate for MVP? Butler? Nah Big Ticket not on board with that. He’s a borderline all-star who’s just about done enough to write his ticket there this season.

by Who on Jan 8, 2008 12:09 PM EST reply actions

Steve, Slam

Butler is the most important player on the Wizards … he was before the injury to Gil, during and will be after. Gil provides no leadership or attention to defense. Caron ain’t a good defender but he tries hard so the others try hard. Eddie Jordan has repeatedly said that Caron is his best voice in the locker room, along with Jamison. He’s also better at getting his teammates involved during games. Basically Gil is all the powerful game changing force but Caron is the glue that holds everyone together.

But no way is he in the top 10 for MVP. Top 20? I can’t even picture that. Top 30? Maybe

by Who on Jan 8, 2008 12:14 PM EST reply actions

Think you’re underrating him Who. He has been putting up rare all around Points, Rebound, Assist numbers. That team was struggling when Arenas was trying to do hurt what he did last year when healthy. Once he went out and a distributing point guard (Daniels) took over, Butler became an ultimate playmaker. If Arenas misses the rest of the season and the Wizards stay in or close to the top half of the playoff teams in the East, I can easily say Butler is deserving of somewhere from the 8-12th spot in my MVP voting. I think Butler is drastically more important to that team than Jamison, who is the only other player that is within a sniff of the all star game.

Can’t picture him in the top 20?? Give me 20 players you put ahead of him right now.

by Big Ticket on Jan 8, 2008 6:30 PM EST reply actions

I guess I should calm myself a little over Butler, at least with regards to my first post, Steve. I might actually put Billups in front of Butler in my MVP list… either way they would be awfully close, so it seems I have convinced myself even further that Butler is properly listed in your article.

by Big Ticket on Jan 8, 2008 6:49 PM EST reply actions

How has Butler differentiated himself from a Joe Johnson?

I don’t think he has and that’s why he doesn’t make the elite.

Caron Butler does have Antawn Jamison and Jamison is putting up career numbers and has been a borderline all-star throughout his career. Jamison is putting up 22 and 11, he’s only averaged over 8.7 boards once in his career, he’s having a huge year albeit a quiet one. Jamison has been a huge guiding hand for this team.

Then he has Antonio Daniels who was one of the league’s strongest backup point guards, a guy who had been battle tested in San Antonio and Seattle playing in big playoff games. Then you have Brendan Haywood putting up a career year and providing them with a very solid interior presence, only now Eddie Jordan isn’t benching him for no good reason and hurting his team for no good reason (Eddie annoys me). Then you have DeShawn Stevenson who is a very solid defensive player and functional spot up shooter, he’s also been around about 8 years now. Then Darius Songalia who I don’t like at all but he does contribute and he has been around, playing on good Chicago and Sacramento teams. Then the bench is loaded with young talent like McGuire, Young, Blatche, Pecherov (when he returns to health) and one my personal favourites Rogen Mason I’ve dropped the Jr. at the end of my name.

This is largely a veteran team, at least the starters are all veterans. They’ve also been together for a couple of years now, they know how to play together and they know how to win. Being one game above .500 is doing what they’re supposed to be doing with Gilbert.

Caron is having a good season, he’s now a verifiable all-star. But he’s no MVP candidate, his performances haven’t been that impressive.

by Who on Jan 9, 2008 2:15 AM EST reply actions

Off topic but just to share my love for Roger Mason Jr.

I can’t believe this guy (Roger Mason) has been out of the league for so long. When he came out of Virginia and played on Chicago, the difference between him and Jay Williams was pretty small. But Chicago let him go …. their management was terrible at the time, they let Hassell go too, to the T’Wolves. Hassell had already established himself as one of the leagues best perimeter defenders in Chicago, even if nobody cared to notice. That’s how bad a management team was there. Roger Mason should have been in an NBA rotation from his second year on. Throughout his rookie year he was putting in solid performances off the bench behind Jay, Crawford, Hassell, Jalen Rose and deserved a lot more minutes than he got. He’s 6-5 combo guard who can defend, shoot, pass and drive.

He hasn’t even taken off yet for Washington, more is to come from Mason. He’s still getting his feet wet again. You can see how Eddie Jordan is so hesitant to put him and Young in together, Eddie hates it, it’s because Mason lacks some experience not talent. Roger Mason is a quality 8th or 9th man in this league and might become more. I’m sorry this is off the point, I just love Roger Mason. I was delighted to see him make Washington’s team this season.

by Who on Jan 9, 2008 2:26 AM EST reply actions

20 guys? I put the likes of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili ahead of Caron Butler. So that tells that story.

He hasn’t seperated himself from the pile. He hasn’t shown he’s better than Melo? or Pierce? or Joe Johnson? or Baron Davis? … how can he be in the top 20 with that? Why should he be higher than Yao? Higher than Dirk? Dirk may be having a down year by his standards but he’s still hellacious out there. Is Caron even outplaying David West (20, 10 and the low post offense for one of the league’s best teams is impressive) for NO right now? Then Nash? Deron and Boozer in Utah? Bosh? No way am I putting him above Bosh. All three guys in San Antonio. Then you have Marion and Amare. Of course the frontrunners like LeBron, Dwight, TD, KG, Paul, Kobe. Then Billups. Add Brandon Roy

How much more impressive is Butler’s performance over guys like Chris Kaman? Seriously. Jacks? R-Jefferson? Kidd? Redd?

How much bigger a contribution is he giving over Jamison? He’s doing more but not a whole pile.

How much more is he doing then say a Ron Artest would do there? Ron is putting up 19/6/4/2 and the seperating factor – he’s one of the best defensive players in the league.

I haven’t even mentioned Allen Iverson, mainly because I don’t like him and don’t think he should be on the list but others do.

No way does Butler deserve top 20 for MVP. He’s an All-Star and doing well, he’s climbing that ladder but he ain’t there.

What has Caron Butler done that warrants his seperation from the pack? I don’t think he has done enough for that.

by Who on Jan 9, 2008 2:42 AM EST reply actions

Wizards are 14-11 since their “best” player went down. Butler has averaged right around 21, 7, 6 in that time. He is a very solid defender. As I said, he is the playmaker on that team (yes, Daniels helped, but he’s missed time now too). I see Jamison in about the same light as Marion… they don’t really need to ball to do their damage. He shoots a lot of threes and has a lightning quick release to get shots off quickly around the basket. Marion and Jamison needs guys like Nash and Butler in order to thrive.

Do I necessarily think he is a better player than those 30 or so you mentioned? Well… no, maybe a few, but mostly no. Still, I find his contributions, thus far in this season, to be more valuable than several of them.
I think the way Butler has stepped up and the way his team has overachieved while Arenas has been out makes a classic formula for MVP recognition. I completely agree with several of the players that you listed Who, but I put them either in the same group or just behind Butler right now. This includes Parker, Ginobili, Carmelo,

by Big Ticket on Jan 9, 2008 12:03 PM EST reply actions

(rant alert, coherent rant alert)

Antawn Jamison doesn’t need anyone to create his shot for him. He was putting up 25 a night in GSW with no point guard worth his salt. He’s been one of the best scorers in the league for a decade now.

He also has a huge leadership role there. There’s a piece today or yester about him changing up the locker room because he thinks the kids are having too much fun and that they need to learn from the vets, he placed their new lockers in between vets to learn how to prepare.

This is also the same guy who averaged 32/10 on Cleveland as the only significant offensive threat (Daniels/Songalia were solid but Stevenson/Hayes forgot how to shoot and Eddie Jordan had ruined the confidence of Haywood/Blatche like he normally does) in the playoffs against one of the best defensive teams in the league.

You’re underestimating the value of Antawn Jamison on that team.[/u] 22ppg and 11rpg with impressive leadership. He’s someone that should not be discounted.

He’s not like Marion at all. Jamison doesn’t take the back seat and rely on people to create for him. Antawn can do just about anything scoring wise. He’s excellent on the low block – because of his quickness. He’s very good at finishing in traffic. He’s a good slasher. Great midrange game. Good off picks. Can be a stand-still shooter or shoot off the dribble. Has range out to 25 feet. This is a guy that put up 50 points back-to-back in his career. He doesn’t rely on other guys to get him going.

He’s also one of the model proffesionals in the NBA and comes to play hard every night. Quality leader.

get me wrong, Caron is having himself a season. The margin of his value over Antawn is there but it’s small. Not enough for MVP consideration. All-Star, yes. MVP, No. If the team was winning 55-60 games, maybe he should make the top 15, but it’s not.

Plus Caron’s defense isn’t very good. It’s just about average. Lots of Wizards fans get sick of him being refered to as the one who plays D. Still, he’s clearly the best defender of the three guys which doesn’t say much about the Wizards defensively …. but Caron’s D is mediocre at best.

He hasn’t emerged from the pack.

by Who on Jan 9, 2008 12:39 PM EST reply actions

I disagree with Who, Caron Butler is FOR REAL. He doesnt take as many shots, but still gets to the foul line, is a great leader (Jamison is too), and is doing a TON in taking his team to a 17-10 record mostly without Gilbert (Since their 0-5 start with Gilbert involved).

Caron is for real, over 50% shooting on 22 ppg/7rpg/4.5apg plus above average defense. He is their go-to guy and their playing great ball, their team I am very high on WITHOUT GILBERT. They have GREAT chemistry, good young talent and veteran leadership, solid depth, finally play good defense, play at a good pace with great ball movement and unselfishness, they like playing together and have alot of fun COMPETING 100% in every game……. theyre well coached, have a nice homecourt advantage and play well at home. They have shooters, defenders, a true #1 option and good #2 option (Jamison), rebounders, they can score inside, and all their roles are very well defined and gladly accepted. They play well in their system and I think they have a very good young team.

That being said, there are 4 up and coming young unselfish franchise players that are true leaders and great allaround players right now that I HAVE GOT TO GIVE PROPS TO: Brandon Roy (leading blazers great run), Joe Johnson (15-12, 4th in the east led by J.J), Caron Butler (already said it), and Chris Paul (Best young PG in the NBA, leading team to 20-13 record thus far)……. (Luol Deng I thought would make the leap after being the best player on the 50 win Bulls last season, but it looks like he needs to develop a bit more and become a better leader…. maybe he will though, we’ll see…… he could rejoin them 4 anytime he wants to start winning again, IMHO.)

by celtpride34pp20ra5kg on Jan 11, 2008 5:39 PM EST reply actions

"Jamison is putting up career numbers and has been a borderline all-star throughout his career. Jamison is putting up 22 and 11, he’s only averaged over 8.7 boards once in his career, he’s having a huge year albeit a quiet one. Jamison has been a huge guiding hand for this team.

I agree with a lot of that ‘Who’……. that and the absolute breakout year of Caron Butler as the team leader and go-to guy is the reason why they went 17-10 (since the 0-5 start with Gilbert.).

by celtpride34pp20ra5kg on Jan 11, 2008 5:48 PM EST reply actions