More Solutions to the Patrick O'Bryant Riddle
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 20, 2008 11:32 PM EST
35 comments
A fanpost I thought was worth discussion on the front page - Jeff
So I've already posted in the Patrick O'Bryant thread about this more than a few times. I'm posting this mainly to simplify why I think O'Bryant's potential isn't translating into solid contributions on the floor yet and hopefully will cover some of the things I feel like Jeff missed in his post.
Reasons why Pat's not getting more burn:
1. Not tough enough in the post
2. Doesn't know the sets well enough
3. Not fast enough even if he does know the sets
Reasons why we might be messing up:
1a. We're: not doing enough to get him in shape
2a. not acclimating him to the sets enough
3a. KG and the rest of the team isn't pushing him hard enough.
Reasons why he might be messing up:
1b. He's not trying hard enough
2b. He needs more practice
3b. He hasn't quite bought into ubuntu yet
4b. Baggage from his old team (he was the goat because Nellie treated him that way for 2 years and getting sent to the D-league didn't exactly help either).
While I don't necessarily think he needs more burn in games, but I think we're in some ways not doing enough to translate some of that potential into a solid contribution. Are we addressing his emotional/psychological baggage? Is he indeed motivated enough? Are we working him hard enough with regards to his first step and knowledge of the sets? And, is he getting a real feel for the difference between the Warriors and the Celtics, or has the team actually changed considerably from last year?
The POB question has been of course been beating a dead horse for awhile now but in a larger sense, it addresses questions about the competency of the FO (Danny) and coaching staff in selecting/developing players, the real nature of team chemistry, and the makeup of the player himself, which makes it worth writing some more about.
Be respectful and keep it clean. Thanks.
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He should see the floor, because PJ is not walking through that door
It could really be anything, but truthfully, we don’t know and won’t know exactly which one it is until he gets some real playing time. 20-25 mins in a game, not just a garbage time appearance. Then we can start making some real assesments, and as to whether his being benched for the first 13 games has been good for him and the team.
I personally think we are going to need some more size for the playoffs, as Perk was a non-factor in several playoff games last year, and drew early foul trouble in others. We had PJ then, but won’t this time around.
by Tradetime on Nov 21, 2008 6:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
20-25 MPG??? Are you kidding??
When has he ever earned the right to play 20-25 minutes per game? I the preseason, once he stopped playing with the starting unit he looked listless and lackadaisical and lazy. In the few appearances he has made this season he has looked lost and lacking in fundamentals.
His footwork is bad.
He doesn’t body his opponent on defense.
He doesn’t box out.
He’s slow.
He doesn’t seem to have a good set of hands.
He appears out of position quite a bit.
Given all that, how could anyone deduce that he has earned the right to play 20-25 minutes per game anywhere but in the NBDL because, at least for me, that translates to 12th man lucky to be putting on a uniform rather than street clothes.
by nickagneta on Nov 21, 2008 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
His footwork is bad.
He doesn’t body his opponent on defense.
-I cannot dispute either of these
He doesn’t box out.
-I noticed this last night
He’s slow.
-Yup
He doesn’t seem to have a good set of hands.
-Wouldn’t argue against this
He appears out of position quite a bit.
-This is his biggest problem. He looks completely lost about 40% of the time out there, especially on defense. Kind of like Matt Barnes and Steve Nash did a lot in the Suns game right after. He does look more in sync on offense than on defense though.
Working as a HS hoops coach, what I have seen in POB is exactly like a high school player who never plays thrown into a varsity HS hoops game. He seems nervous and the motions just don’t seem fluid to him. I do think he has potential though and with more burn, he could become a rotational player. But with Powe’s continued improvement, I don’t see him getting rotational minutes justified anytime soon nor do I think we need him to be in the rotation. POB needs to work hard outside of gametime and make the most of his limited minutes to really get better and earn real minutes.
by action781 on Nov 21, 2008 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's the whole problem
I think he along with Pruitt might not be getting enough burn in practice, which is obviously having some significant effects on the court. Last year we go into the season with basically a 12-man roster as Pruitt is sent down to the D-league. This does one major thing: because there was such an emphasis on practicing the sets at the beginning of the season, fewer people on the active roster means more people have time to practice the sets in practice and in the games. In this way I’d say that Powe and Big Baby lucked out, they got their time in and now know it.
Now enter JR, Bill Walker, Pat, and Pruitt again, and even Darius Miles and you have much less of a chance of actually practicing the sets and possibly even evaluating the players properly. So it becomes not just about “working hard” but getting real minutes in, whether it be in practice or not – a responsibility which clearly lies with the coaching staff.
Other things: Footwork is bad. Okay, so his footwork still needs to be worked on because he’s still raw. How? Where? You can’t really do it playing 3×3.
Doesn’t body his opponent/box out: agreed. When’s he going to be able to do this? Do they do this in practice? Boxing out isn’t just a matter of doing leg presses.
He’s slow. NO. If you watched today’s game you’d see that his speed is just as fast as Perk’s. He’s clearly been working on his endurance, and it shows.
Doesn’t seem to have a good set of hands. Actually his outlet passes are superb. Maybe he could work on his one-handed rebounding but that’s already going beyond what we asked of/saw from PJ.
Appears out of position. Yeah well that’s only evidence that 1) he’s not getting meaningful minutes and 2) he’s not being integrated in practices enough.
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 21, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Read it again Nick
I said 20-25 mins IN A GAME. Not averaging that per game, but a single game where he gets that for minutes. The ones on here slamming him are basing what they see off of the few garbage time minutes he has played in games.
by Tradetime on Nov 25, 2008 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
V. The Pistons
O’Bryant looked capable against the Pistons. Awkward, from lack of game minutes, but ok. I don’t think the C’s expect much more than that from him. I expect he’ll play once or twice a week IF the teams is playing well and the bench is logging alot of minutes.
by LuckyNumber07 on Nov 21, 2008 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Or . . .
Maybe the second unit is playing well enough to justify not getting him in the games. For the most part, the second unit has been playing better, and more consistent than the first unit. And that’s with Eddie being cold most of the games. In addition, while POB is now in his third year, he has less experience than everyone dressed with the exception of Gabe. So he should be sitting.
If at the end of the year we do not see POB markedly better (coaching from Ray), then you begin to worry. I just think expectations of this kid have been either way too high, or way too low. Regardless, his potential, age, and height make him someone you hang onto to see if there’s something more there.
by amenhotep04 on Nov 21, 2008 11:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Coaching from Ray will not solve everything
You need practice with the sets and get some real minutes in too. Garbage time at the end of games is Not going to be conducive to knowing/applying the sets… neither is the seeming lack of playing time he’s getting from practice at this point.
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 21, 2008 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hustle
I have to say in the few minutes he played last night he really hustled. although he may have been trying too hard which lead to some miscues. But still atleast he’s trying now. lets hope for a few more blowouts so he can see a few more minutes. But if he doesn’t show Doc something by the allstar break they’re gonna have to make a move.
by rjstaines on Nov 21, 2008 12:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry yourself about the guy.
Right now, Powe and Davis are playing entirely too well for O’Bryant to be getting any real minutes. Just leave him to the coaching staff, and let them work with him in practice if they think it’s worth their while.
Who knows, in a few weeks or months, someone else may pull up lame, and if so, maybe the coaches will decide he’s worth time on the court. If he ever gets any consistent minutes as a backup, then we can go about the vital job of analyzing the guy.
by no kidding on Nov 21, 2008 12:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
indeed
Most centers are not NBA ready as rookies or even in their first few years. If POB is working with Clifford Ray and working it in practice, I have no complaints. That’s enough. I’m not even curious as to what he’d look like on the floor this year. In another couple years we will know if he’s a bust.
Until then, let’s just enjoy how well Powe is performing—he’s undersized but still developing ahead of schedule, and man o man is he the kinda guy I like to root for!
by Thruthelookingglass on Nov 21, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dude just looks too skinny to play in the paint in this league. He can’t rebound at this level, he just isn’t strong enough yet. I don’t doubt the will is there, he just doesn’t seem to have the physical tools.
we will need another big for a playoff run. Hopefully PJ is still hungry to play…
by D Dub on Nov 21, 2008 1:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Problems like this are solved through correct assessment and proper muscle training. Don’t know what to say about not having the physical tools…
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 21, 2008 10:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Motivation?
What he needs it “basketballability”.
Reasons why Pat’s not getting more burn:
1. He’s not very good in most aspects of the game
Reasons why we might be messing up:
1. Bad coaching. I think it’s a far-fetched possibility, because if it’s true, the guy is insanely unlucky: he didn’t learn a couple of fundamentals in high-school, in college and in 2 NBA teams?
Reasons why he might be messing up:
1. I don’t know, but a guy in his 3rd NBA season should at least know how to get down and large on screens and box out. Is he too lazy to learn? Too dumb? Genetics, like in pure lack of innate talent to learn?
by cordobes on Nov 21, 2008 1:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If he doesn’t have “basketballability” then what kind of testament is that to Danny?
Bad coaching. I think it’s a far-fetched possibility, because if it’s true, the guy is insanely unlucky: he didn’t learn a couple of fundamentals in high-school, in college and in 2 NBA teams?. Fundamentals in high school and college? No comment.. As far as the NBA goes, Golden State didn’t have a Clifford Ray nor did they practice defense or team accountability. He was the goat. Where in this picture do you see the team making time to help him practice fundamentals?
I don’t know, but a guy in his 3rd NBA season should at least know how to get down and large on screens and box out. Is he too lazy to learn? Too dumb? Genetics, like in pure lack of innate talent to learn? Not sure why you would make the argument that he’s too dumb. Look at his draft profile… boxing out is a job in the NBA and a volunteer position in college.
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 21, 2008 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What's wrong with learning fundamentals in high-school and college?
Most of them are acquired at those stages. Many players, especially those of the one-and-done type are very raw, but many others come to the league with much better fundamentals than O’Bryant.
Golden State developed Biedrins, who was pretty raw when he joined the league. Clifford Ray is not the only coach who can develop young big men. Of course they practice defense, how do you think they were a top-3 team in turnovers caused the last 2 seasons? Their defense scheme is atypical and they’re generally subpar, but there are worse teams.
What do you mean by boxing-out being a volunteer position in college? I’m pretty sure John Thompson and Hubie Brown would disagree with you. If anything, boxing out is more used in the college game than in the NBA.
by cordobes on Nov 26, 2008 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Read his draft profile.
I might be wrong on the college-and-boxing-out connection but it’s pretty clear that Pat wasn’t being pushed to do it.
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 27, 2008 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know?
I’m pretty sure that he has been pushed to box out in his NBA career and going on for his 3rd year he still doesn’t do it consistently.
by cordobes on Nov 28, 2008 9:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His first 2 years don’t count, and it’s pretty much established fact that he’s basically a rookie this year and still has a lot of potential. Well part of that “potential” is having the same body but not having filled it out yet since the time he was drafted, something that’s listed on his profile. That goes for both upper and lower body.
If you need another reason why you should ignore the first 2 years take a look at some of the games he played in: http://www.nba.com/dleague/news/dleague_webcasts.html – you can clearly see that little if any emphasis was being put on boxing out at Bakersfield. (You can also check out one of Pruitt’s games there too at the Utah/Bakersfield game on 4/6. Nice!)
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 28, 2008 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with POB is that he doesn’t seem to want it bad enough. That’s the only reason that I can think of that explains why he lost a rebound to a shorter guy whom he had behind his back.
by kozlodoev on Nov 21, 2008 1:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not fair to POB
Who knows whether the effort is there or not? What we saw last night was a guy who hasn’t played substantial minutes all year, a guy who was both nervous and clueless, but a guy who looked to be working hard. You’ve seen this guy play about 10 minutes all year long, so can you really tell whether he’s giving it his all or not? If you had never heard anyone else on the blog question POB’s effort, would you have thought anything of him losing a rebound? Since when do we take a look at one play and make a blanket statements about it?
by Toine43 on Nov 21, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
People must realize that this whole thing is a non issue.
Danny took a flier on POB. If he doesn’t pan out, then so be it. After so many years of player development on mediocre teams, I know it’s hard to think like this, but this guy simply isn’t good enough to get minutes right now. We are a team making a run for a championship. The best players will play. Yes, I know that in theory we need some more height off the bench, but let’s take a look at what actually happening on the floor. The starters are getting off to slow starts, and the bench is either getting us back in the game, or pulling away from the other team. Powe and Davis have both been very consistent for us, and even Scal has proven that he can play 10 minutes at the 3 or the 4 if needed. I know we like (and are used to) seeing every guy on the roster earning some pt and contributing. But Doc isn’t just going to hand out the minutes. If POB is going to play meaningful minutes, he’ll have to earn them in practice, and that’s just the way it is. And once again, if he doesn’t ever earn those minutes, I really couldn’t care less. He’s the 12th man on the roster of the defending champions, so no one’s going to pay any special attention to him. The Celtics do not need him – he’s going to have to attract their attention if he wants to play. That’s the way it is with contending teams.
by Toine43 on Nov 21, 2008 4:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It's a non-issue if the team wins, sure.
But it also speaks of how the team is deciding to develop its players this year and the kind of implications it has for the future of the team, both in this season and later. As far as the regular season goes it’s obviously fine if we leave it as is, the formula worked last year and I see no problem with it.
The problem is that Danny’s trying to develop a team that competes both now and in the future. If we end up with ill-fitting pieces in 2010 we might as well end up like the Celts of a few years ago, or even in the later Bird years – competitive but lacking the pieces that will get us over the top. Agreed Doc isn’t going to hand out the minutes but as the post argues, there’s a certain amount of responsibility that the coaches and FO have in addition to the player himself. Leaving him to fend entirely for himself is to repeat a dumb mistake made by the Warriors and Don Nelson.
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 21, 2008 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just putting the issue in perpective.
Of course the coaches have a responsibility to try and make him the best player he can be. I just don’t think he’s one of their major concerns, nor should he be ours. Perk, Baby, and Powe are young and will all still be around and in their primes in 2010 and beyond. I’m sure that the Cs will work hard to develop Walker, Giddens, and Pruitt, in addition to the young guys who are actually playing, so that when the time comes that the Big Three can no longer carry the team, there will be other people ready to step in and take their places. I get that it’s important to think ahead and develop the young guys.
But let’s take a step back and evaluate how much POB really matters. Currently, he is nowhere close to being deserving of significant minutes. The other players on the roster are more qualified than he is to be on the floor. Why are we all assuming that he is lazy, or not living up to expectations? If you feel that he’s not living up to expectations, then what expectations did you have for him in the first place? Did you not see this situation unfolding as it did? He was a high draft pick who the Warriors bailed on quickly, who has never done anything to suggest that he deserves to play for a contending team (or any team) besides being tall. So he signs with us, after being pretty much a complete failure for a few years, and then you expect him to somehow immediately earn pt over all the same guys who won us banner 17 last year?
In general, the correct philosophy for a contender is to do all you can to win now, while leaving yourself some options for the future. But this guy is not part of the Celtics’ future plans, he’s just a bonus if he pans out. The coaches won’t give up on him, but both the team and the fans have much more important things to worry about.
by Toine43 on Nov 22, 2008 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree and disagree
I think we slightly disagree on how much O’Bryant matters in the here-and-now, i.e. getting us a championship. This in turn impacts the amount of minutes you and I think he deserves on the court and possibly in practice. The main thing is it’s clear we need a legit backup C for Perk because of his ongoing foul troubles, so where do we get this person if the vets decide to go elsewhere in midseason (Finley and Maxiell come readily to mind)? Sure there are other vets out there but realistically what are our chances of getting them after it took us both Pierce and Ray Ray during the All-Star game in New Orleans which happened to be the place where PJ lives to recruit PJ?
That said, I’m probably overestimating this, but I think developing Pat to a point slightly past Pollard is possible – someone who knows the sets and can contribute to team D even if minimally (provided that he works harder on posting up and boxing out – clearly he needed work on this as seen in the preseason). On the other hand, it might be the case that Pat is much rawer than any of us think and he needs substantial work on both his knowledge of sets and building up his lower body (the latter which would not be surprising).
Either way, I think it’s not an either-or but a situational problem. If we can’t pick up a legit C during midseason and we lose during the playoffs then developing Pat becomes a bigger priority in hindsight. On the other hand, if we manage to win and we manage to do it with our current roster then his importance/development matters less. From a rookie-homer standpoint, I’d personally like to see more time to be spent developing him, along with Pruitt.
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 22, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your point of view
I just think that getting a vet should be a priority no matter what, and that if we don’t get a vet we’ll have a better chance of winning with Davis and Powe than we will with POB. Regardless of their height, they’re better options than him.
by Toine43 on Nov 22, 2008 7:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. =)
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 27, 2008 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What if...
…the mistake the Warriors made was to draft him?
by cordobes on Nov 26, 2008 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Plausible, yes.
Realistic, no.
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 27, 2008 12:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure but the reason why it’s not plausible is because he was at the time and still is a late-blooming athletic 7-footer with a high ceiling who carried his team to the Sweet 16. 10/10 times he gets drafted in the top 10.
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 28, 2008 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
*realistic
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 28, 2008 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in the last 2 games he’s shown he can block shots. he’s also shown he gives up position on the blocks too easily and that making the defensive rotations is still a work in progress for him. But considering how little he’s played I think he’s doing ok. He needs to get stronger especially in his lower body and on offense he needs to learn how to attack the rim instead of always shooting a fade away or a post. he has legit size and contrary to another post here I think his hands are ok. Most of all he needs some of what Leon Powe has- which is “attitude” as we say here in Philly.
by Red2 on Nov 22, 2008 9:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes yes and yes. Hopefully the C’s can address all of these issues.. otherwise somebody’s not pulling their weight
Bleed Green. What does it mean? Ask Red.
by CelticsHooRah on Nov 27, 2008 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Doc has made it pretty clear, and is consistent. If a player, any player, doesn’t bring it defensively in practice he doesn’t get the privilege of playing in games. When The Irishman plays great defense in practice, he will earn playing time.
by johnnymost on Dec 5, 2008 1:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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