This off-season becomes worse and worse, assuming this is true. Anyway, no one will offer a 1st round pick, if other teams liked the kid that much they’d have picked him a few months ago.

that this team isnt done dealing. Signing anyone would require us to release someone, this is probably DA’s attempt to get something for someone we would have to release anyways.

If nothing else, it shows how confident the team is that they are going to make another move.

Yeah, that was a terrible pick in the draft, and why would anyone want him for another first rounder? he was the last pick in the round and noone else would’ve taken him there

Ainge is simply moving along with the same process that won him a championship. Take the best players available in the later part of the draft, develop them to the extent you can, and then package them off for something better. Eventually, you hope to get a Ray Allen out of the process. Who knows, maybe even a Garnett.

Giddens may not be much. But packaged with a Glen Davis and a Gabe Pruitt, and maybe somebody parts with someone really significant.

Nick/Cordobes:

Both of you are jumping to conclusions, based purely off of your opinions and not off any substantial evidence.

Let’s review some established truths:

- The team has a full 15 man roster
- The team would like to upgrade its center position (Mutombo)
- The team has interest in a designated scoring vet to lead the bench (Marbury)
- Ainge has no track history of cutting assets to acquire players
- The team is extremely wing heavy (Pierce/Ray/TA/House/Pruitt/Walker/Giddens)

Both of you two have been vocal about your displeasure over this past off-season, despite the fact that Ainge is currently doing exactly what he set himself up to do: NOT rush things, take some time to evaluate, and then acquire what he feels the team needs.

The team didn’t “sour” on Giddens, as Jeff said. They expected Giddens to challenge TA for the backup wing minutes and were surprised with his lack of assertiveness and slowness to learn to team sets. As such, Tony Allen stepped up and showed that he could handle the role, so the off-season impetus behind drafting Giddens altered – not their feelings on his potential as a player. Pruitt’s improvement and Walker’s surprising readiness an aptitude for what they were doing only furthered the depth the Celtics had at the wings, which served to dilute the value of Giddens as a commodity for the team – supply and demand -

Team has 8 players for 3 positions if you include Rondo, since Pruitt and House both see time at PG. That is at least 2 too many players to be able to develop, so a move of some sort was inevitable sometime in the next 2 seasons. The fact that they have the opportunity to grab Mutombo now, coupled with the depth at the position, makes Giddens an obvious primary option for trade.

Its amazing to me that, despite Ainge’s track record with picks he’s scouted – especially in that draft range – that people assume that Giddens can’t play, when he in fact is a very solid player who is highly likely to have a successful NBA career.

Trading Giddens is only one of multiple options for Ainge, but it is a relatively simple one, and it is borne out of the volume of talent Boston possesses at the wing, not the lack of talent Giddens has – which is why he’s asking for a 1st round pick.

I think they looked at the two guys they drafted and felt that Walker stands a better chance of being an impact player. I think they’re close to signing another player, and why would you want to eat a contract if you don’t NEED to? Giddens may also have a little bit more trade value than Walker (he was drafted earlier at the very least).

They’ll make a trade if they can, and we’ll see someone new in green in early January. Might be Marbury (hope not), might be Mutumbo (most likely) or PJ.

i don’t think anyone would offer a 1st round pick for Giddens. How about two 2nd rounders? or 2nd round and cash??

I think there’s no way we go into the playoffs without some tinkering.

It’s obvious we need a backup vet long center. Danny would rather get something rather than nothing. Seems a pipe dream that he’d land a first rounder for Giddens. If he is, in fact, for sale, I bet Danny would accept what he perceives as an early second rounder for him. Easiest way to open up a roster spot and it beats just cutting someone and getting nothing in return.

I’d be okay with an early second rounder for him, personally.

I also think that the generally strong play of TA this year works into the equation as well. Both Giddens and Walker, best-case, are backing up on the wings either later this year or more realistically in ‘09 – ’10. But, Giddens is more built like a backup for the SG role, while Walker is a more protoypical 3 that you could see developing into Pierce’s backup. Tony Allen’s playing quite well at the 2 and looks like he’ll be able to stick as a part of the rotation. But, there’s still a bit of a hole behind Pierce; TA’s kinda small to play a lot at the 3, and Powe’s a classic PF. Therefore, they might be looking at a bit more of a need for the player that projects to play the 3 versus the guy who plays the 2.

Regardless, if they were in LOVE with Giddens, if he was knocking the socks off everyone, they’d make something else work. I don’t think this news means that they’ve been horribly, horribly disappointed – but it’s got to mean that he hasn’t been a terribly pleasant surprise, either.

nickagneta and AncientRivalry are quite off with their opinions. They are probably too young to remember Bill Parcell’s immortal “You are what your record says you are” and at 23-2 criticism of Danny is foolish.

Danny has put together a very solid 2nd team. If you take him at his word there was a choice this summer: hold Posey/lose T Allen & House or vice versa. Since both Tony and Eddie are playing better than last year the outcome was anything but a mistake. O’Bryant was a great gamble and still is. And drafting where we were it would have been a success to find one player out of Giddens/Walker and it looks like he has.

If you want a high 2nd rounder for Giddens you start off looking for a 1st rounder. Remember, Kevin McHale, Chris Wallace and a few other dopes are still out there ready to make a bad deal with you.

…you are just too clever for me…

…but wait…“4 second round picks ahead of Giddens on the depth chart?” Who are they? Pruitt and Walker are 2nd rounders – but you can’t count Eddie House or Scalabrine as they are veterans, graded on track record, not potential.

There is a difference between drafting a player you feel has value and a chance to compete against the other assets on your club and “making a mistake” picking a player in the first place. The group of Pruitt/Walker/Giddens/TA are all fairly comparable in talent and potential, so having a volume of them ensures competition and increases the potential that you’ll come out with one or two who contribute.

Ainge tried to shop the 30th pick before the draft and move into the 2nd round, where he still would have taken JR Giddens. But moving the last guarenteed money slot isn’t easy, so he just took his guy there. If you believe evaluating JR in training camp and pre-season changed him mind on a player he’d watched 100’s of hours of film on and done exhaustive background work studying, you really don’t understand how scouting works.

You are conveniently applying your own thoughts from pre-season onto the situation despite the lack of attention paid to the player market this past off-season, the value Ainge placed on them, and the cost they would incur.

Let’s establish another “truth” the bench this season is scoring about the same amount of points and playing better defense by the numbers.

POB was STATED IMMEDIATELY as being a project big man that the team hoped could “contribute by seasons end.” So the idea that he was brought in to be the backup off the bat is false and was never a part of Ainge’s design. Ainge stated immediately that backup center was his most pressing concern, but not to the point of panic – which makes sense considering THERE ARE OPTIONS AVAILABLE NOW.

Ainge didn’t sign Posey to a 4 year deal, or pay Matt Barnes MLE money because he didn’t need them that much – you are acting like the off-season was a disaster when the evidence shows that this team is BETTER THAN LAST YEAR.

Ainge doesn’t need “ringers” he needs easy-to-obtain vets to play minor roles for this team. His stated impetus behind the lack of “splash” moves was that the current team would be much improved themselves – that has completely proven to be true, especially for the starting unit – all 5 are playing excellent basketball.

Tony Allen has been just as consistent as James Posey. Eddie House is blazing clutch 3’s now, after starting the season slowly. Powe and Davis have been gritty and grabbed quality rebounds and made key defensive plays.

The Marbury/Mutombo moves are about improving a situation – in the case of Marbury, (designated scorer) it would be a luxury item the team NEVER HAD LAST year, so acting like its a “do-over” for poor management is false.

GPA are playing under 36 mpg, which is right where they should be. They play heavy minutes in the big games and get tons of rest in the laughers – as every team typically does.

Honestly though, this is nothing more than an early morning distraction from real work – no matter what I say, there is almost never a way to change anybody’s mind on these boards – hey, you are all experts that have all the facts in hand, so good for you…

Players like Giddens are a dime a dozen. In retrospect they should have renounced the pick to save the cap space and reduce their luxury tax hit.

Giddens can’t shoot. That’s the first problem, although there are others.

…it is more interesting than discussing the greatness of a 23-2 team to me…I am interested in the teams long-term future and ability to transition from GPA…the team today has enough to win the title, they don’t strictly “need” anything IMO – they DO hae areas of weakness, but that is all relative to their strenghts – they are the best team in the NBA, any moves made would be to strengthen that dominance, not necissary to succeed…

I also think that the generally strong play of TA this year works into the equation as well. Both Giddens and Walker, best-case, are backing up on the wings either later this year or more realistically in ‘09 – ’10. But, Giddens is more built like a backup for the SG role, while Walker is a more protoypical 3 that you could see developing into Pierce’s backup. Tony Allen’s playing quite well at the 2 and looks like he’ll be able to stick as a part of the rotation. But, there’s still a bit of a hole behind Pierce; TA’s kinda small to play a lot at the 3, and Powe’s a classic PF. Therefore, they might be looking at a bit more of a need for the player that projects to play the 3 versus the guy who plays the 2.

Regardless, if they were in LOVE with Giddens, if he was knocking the socks off everyone, they’d make something else work. I don’t think this news means that they’ve been horribly, horribly disappointed – but it’s got to mean that he hasn’t been a terribly pleasant surprise, either.

by theBird on Dec 16, 2008 7:25 AM PST
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GREAT POST!!!

That was the point I was trying to make. Any interest the team has in moving Giddens is in direct relation to the strength at his position, the current ability of previously unknown commodities, and the availability of personnel in greater areas of concern…

it irks me to no end to hear disparaging remarks about prospects with ability, whose games i am intimately familiar with — JR Giddens can play and has a chance to be pretty good – but we have young developing talent at his position and have needs in other areas – if he had blown the team away with his current level of development we’d be discussing another talented prospect who’d be on the block for reasons other than his ability to play basketball.

We made the “awful” trade with Portland, where we unloaded salaries and our 7th pick for Telfair! and we got this guard Rondo in a trade with Phoenix and he proved he couldn’t shoot a lick. We then traded for the 49th pick, Leon Powe, an undersized pf with a history of knee injuries. Didn’t that look like a wasted offseason in 2006-2007? Well, how did that all work out last year and now??

As someone else has mentioned, O’bryant will only be 22 when this season ends. Walker could become a stud later. And for all you know Giddens will be traded in a package for someone who can crack the rotation. We are crazy deep at wing and Giddens probably looks so so to DA right now.. That all that is happening here

….looking at what Ainge already had in hand and also not knowing if he was going to lose ALL of his backup wing depth at the time, (Posey, TA, House.)

The draft happens before the FA signing period, so all Ainge knows is that he will have to spend a great deal of time negotiating with Posey, while TA and House could slip away.

Drafting Giddens, whom looked game ready, and purchasing Walker, at least give Ainge some young talent in-hand in case they lose everyone in FA.

Ainge already had Pruitt in hand as well as Powe/Davis, so the obvious short-fall was at the wing, where Giddens and Walker had the most upside of any available wing prospects…

More realistically – Ainge drafted best player available, with a small eye towards need. He probably felt okay going with Pruitt as the backup PG if he couldn’t keep House and liked his depth overall in the front court with BBD, Powe, and Scal, but was unsure if House and T. Allen and Posey all left who would backup the SG. So he took the best player with a small eye towards need. Now that Tony Allen is playing okay (not great, but definitely okay) and with House back in the fold, he has more depth at the SG and wants to create a roster space. Even if he was wrong about Giddens – his 1st round draft picks are all still in the league: Banks (I think), Perkins, Jefferson, West, T. Allen, and Green (not for long, but he was part of the KG trade), and Rondo. If he missed on Giddens, I think we can forgive him.

More likely he just wants to create a Roster space, and a high 2nd rounder has more value than a late first rounder a lot of the times, since the talent level can be stagnant, but the cost is lower. It also may be a reason why he’s not offering Walker – Walker costs a lot less.

I think he felt inprovement from the big 3 playing together longer, and Tony, Rondo and Perks natural improvement would still make them good enough to win the title. I do believe that is what he thinks and it is revealed in how he positioned himself to be able to make a free agent splash after next year by not offering Posey more than 3 years

both giddens and walker are putting up stats in the d league. walker seems to have more potential but his risks are his knees. with the recession here and all over the usa, the owners have to spend carefully. i am sure danny is on a string and must be prudent. i donot understand the sam situation which looks like a promise to keep from last year.

but I think the best one is this: Tony Allen is going to contribute more to this team over the next two seasons than Giddens and they play the same position, so why not see if you can move him for a future asset.

The point is not what Ainge did last off season, the point is what can he do to help this team in the future? The potrait is never finished, and always needs to be refined. Let move Giddens for a future pick, sign Mutombo, and then lets see what else we can do to help us win this season.

There was no player on the board at #30 who had a ghost of a chance of cracking the Celtics’ rotation. So it seems to me that the pick should have gone to the player with the most upside, namely a raw but athletic big man.

Examples?

It will probably be Giddens who gets called up first, and he will probably play some good defense and score some open court points.

He wasn’t my choice for that draft pick, but there was no assurance that Tony would have the season he’s had so far. Let’s focus on how good it is that Tony and Eddie are having good years, and are only locked up for two years at low money. Any talk of Posey forgets the long term drag he would have had on the team regarding cap flexibility and possible on court performance in a few years.

Whether Giddens was a good pick at the time or not is irrelevant. Let’s see a show of hands, how many people throught that Tony Allen would be proving himself to be a reliable contributor this year? Mine’s firmly down; the success that he’s had (and I don’t want to overstate it too much) has been a very pleasant surprise (hell, it’s been shocking).

So, now we know that Tony can contribute, so the need for a guy like Giddens is lessened. We also need a roster spot to bring aboard another veteran, something that I think we all agree we need (whether we need a PG or a C is another debate). So… redundant player, need for a roster spot, a desire to not have to eat someone else’s contract… and a player that might or might not be disappointing (we’re not at practice, we don’t know), but hasn’t blown anyone away.

What’s really to debate?

What I really want to know, though… is who is Jeff’s mole in the Celtics organization?

…of course the organization is going to refute the claim….its not about chemistry, but about maintaining a positive and fucntional relationship with Giddens…Look, they still like Giddens as a prospect, i’m sure of it. But the team needs a roster spot opened up if they want to acquire Mutombo or Marbury – two, if they want both.

This means, regardless of who they like, somebody has to go – the younger and less established the player the higher the likelihood he’ll be on the short list of options to get the boot – not because he’s fallen out of favor but because the relative value of that player is deemed less than that of the incoming player for more immediate purposes.

But, there is no guarantee that this is going to go down, so you don’t want your young pup thinking he is unwanted or unloved. Its a GMs job to gauge the interest in his players and when that GM is looking to add players, even more so.

I’m sure there are a dozen scenarios with other players on this team where they have been “offered” in some way, shape, or form….the question is not whether or not a player is potentially trade bait, but WHAT the asking price is for that player…

…the rumor said a first round pick, so clearly he’s not being given away…

Giddens could probably contribute decent minutes right now – comprable to what TA gave this team back in his rookie year…but this team has far better personnel than that team did, so looking at players like Luc Richard and others is somewhat pointless, because they are earning time on rosters with greater opportunity for less polished players…

…besides, Giddens has a ton more upside than Mbah Mute – one can be an explosive player, the other is gloriously solid but unspectacular…

Giddens became a bad pick as soon as they were able to purchase the draft rights to Bill Walker. But the Celtics didn’t know they could make that purchase when they selected Giddens.

1. I think that last year’s draft was a lot deeper than this year’s draft will be, so teams may not be valuing first round picks as high as they were last year.

2. Tony Allen almost signed with the Thunder. I think they were offering him more money than we were. One of these two rookies were very close to being in the rotation right off the bat.

3. If Danny could do the draft over again, he would have probably just taken Walker at 30 so that JR would be more tradeable of an asset. He had no way of knowing at the time that Walker was going to be available.

4. I take Bill Walker over L Richard Mbah a Moute every time. Hard to judge this stuff because it’s tough to break our rotation, but I feel very strongly that Mbah a Moute is not better than Tony Allen.

5. I still like Giddens. His shot is a lot better than I thought it was. he is looooooong and energetic. Needs to learn how to harness his energy. Great on defense. I saw him going nuts on the D League bench, just as if it were the NBA finals.

6. I want a better source than this clown. I seem to remember some pretty bad anti-Celtic articles from this guy last year. Not sure about him, but it is sort of a crazy name to bring up in a trade rumor. NOt like Giddens is on the tips of people’s tongues.

there is nothing to see here, for all we know some team tried to work the celts in as a third team to make numbers work, and Danny tried to get a first rounder out of it – which became the rumor.

I believe the rumor. It makes perfectly good sense to shop Giddens since he has a guaranteed contract and costs double because of the luxury tax. It also makes perfectly good sense to package Giddens and Scalabrine for a player with an expiring contract, even if that player is a complete stiff.

…it gets to the heart of an important Basketball management axiom: How does a team establish value for players and how are those values affected when other issues are being weighed?

the argument has taken two forms: one group is looking at Giddens and his value in a vacuum while the other is viewing it based off the organizational need to factor that value into the bigger picture.

Stating Giddens was a bad pick because:

A. the team has placed a trade value on him
B. he may have been discussed in a trade
C. other rookies drafted after him are playing well
D. he failed to earn a role with the team

all completely ignore the other factors in play with the organization, which may very well have nothing to do with the opinion of Ainge in regards to Giddens the bball player.

If this was a Marbury situation it would be more clean-cut, but its not…Giddens has done nothing negative other than not beat out Tony Allen for a spot on the club…he has performed extremely well down in the D-league, (unless 20/7/3/2/2 is bad) and cannot be judged based off anything other than how he performs in the forum he is afforded to do so.

This “argument” makes little sense to me and Budweiser, but apparently is quite arguable to Cordobes and Nickagenta…