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Communication or Bickering?

Marc Spears reports:

While the Celtics have a growing reputation for trash talking their opponents, they had an internal battle going against the Lakers. Following an Allen turnover on a wild pass intended for Rajon Rondo with 7:47 left in the third quarter, the two Boston guards got into a heated discussion. With the Lakers coming back on offense, Paul Pierce pulled Allen away and pushed him toward his defensive assignment to end the verbal dispute. Rondo said the Celtics had a spirited debate during a second-half timeout, too. "We are so competitive, we want to win," said Rondo, who had 6 points and a game-high 12 assists. "We've got to get past that because it's not like us. It's not like the usual Celtics." Said Kevin Garnett, "We argue every night. That's why I think we're so good and that's why we've been able to mesh so early. We do voice our opinion. Tonight's no different just because it was Christmas or an ABC game. Our communication is our strength, whether it's arguing or a small quarrel. But the fact that we are all talkative and do voice our opinions is the strength of this team."

They can downplay all they want, but I think this is a case where they finally understood the magnitude of the game while it was slipping away from them and they got frustrated at each other.  It happens, and it is a valuable lesson for down the road.

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The only thing that caused me particular concern was that it involved Ray Allen.

Allen has to be the most level-headed guy on that squad (unless it’s Powe).

by no kidding on Dec 26, 2008 9:14 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rondo calls it like he sees it...

Ray holds the ball to much…Paul holds the ball to much…Rondo’s the man,should get it every time,and he let him know it..this kid is our advantage vs other teams and the fact that he is taking leadership/ownwership of this team is a GREAT sign…Rondo has serious “stones”…without this kid we are a 85-90 pt team that will grind to a halt come april…get him the ball and fill the lanes

by Motown on Dec 26, 2008 9:57 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ray was off his game

I remember that play well because I was yelling turnover turnover turnover as Ray brought it up the court instead of giving it to Rondo. I can see why Rondo got pissed. There was no need for that particular play.

Many have already pointed out that Ray was out of it that game, uncharacteristically emotional… I’m hoping that it was all the christmas hubbub messing with his routine.

by reggie35 on Dec 26, 2008 10:19 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There was another play involving Ray Allen right around that time that jumped out at me. I think it was right after their little vocal scuffle, Ray was bringing the ball up the court and jacked up a semi-contested 3 (which was surprisingly ugly; a line-drive) without seeming to even try and get the team into its offense. Not sure if that was related to this frustration or not… but it sure seemed like an “eff you, I’m doing this myself!” kind of shot. Seemed out of character, especially for Ray.

by theBird on Dec 26, 2008 10:19 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

woo

Ray was trying to play “Hero” in that game like he did in game 4 of the finals, except this time we didnt need it, and there ballhandling did nothing but hurt us…the early foul trouble for rondo did not help at all, and I find it funny how LA puts the supposed best player in the world on rondo, they dont do this against other quick point guards in the league.it couldnt be any clearer who wanted this game more, Phil Jackson, the supposed best coach in the world hates us as much as Vujacic and went all out with his rotations and Doc went about it as just another game… Ick I fet like i was gonna puke watching Gasol strut his stuff at the end of that game…the camera was on him and you could read his lips as he screamed “THANK GOD” in relief of the win…and is it just me or did we have him for the most part shut down until the final minutes?

by TheAncientRivalry on Dec 26, 2008 10:40 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gasol doesn't scream

in english.

The reason why Jackson puts Kobe on Rondo is an indictment of Rondo, not an endorsement: basically Kobe can play centerfield because Rondo can’t shoot from distance and Kobe is very good roaming on defense. And you surely don’t see a lot of Lakers games, do you?

by cordobes on Dec 26, 2008 12:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Absolutely, cordobes

Jax did this throughout the Finals last year as well, and it certainly worked at times yesterday. There was one particular play that stands out in my memory that involved Kobe going from Rondo in the right corner to double KG from behind on the left wing, then back to the right elbow to provide a double team against Pierce attacking to the rim. Much as I love Rondo and I love what he’s given us this season, so long as he doesn’t prove he has the confidence and mechanics to hit the open jumper consistently, the Lakers will be able to continue to do this effectively.

-sw

Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.

by Steve Weinman on Dec 26, 2008 12:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again, Not enough Pierce

he really started to get it going and right when he did we went away from it, 20 pts and 10 rebounds? Im sorry but in these type of games, we need to get the ball into our captains hands down the strech, to get to the line and to create his own shot…sorry doc but it shouldve been Pierce playing 42 minutes and not Ray, he couldve gone for 30 yet the ball wasnt in his freakin hands

by TheAncientRivalry on Dec 26, 2008 10:50 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Paul played 38 minutes

He needed that rest badly, by the time he left the court he had played 32 out of 34 minutes.

Most importantly, what I saw while watching the game was the Lakers double-teaming and trapping Paul the entire 4th quarter. People have to understand that when the opponent can force you to do things, like taking away the ball from one of your players hands.

by cordobes on Dec 26, 2008 12:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True, however

that means Doc should run some stuff to get Pierce open. You wouldn’t see Cleveland ignore LeBron, LA ignore Kobe, NO ignore Paul (etc…) for the 4th quarter of a tough, winnable game. This tends to happen with Paul sometimes in tight games. Rondo or Ray will decide THEY want to win the game, and we get in trouble.

Run some screens, give him the ball and let them trap him and he hits the open man, let him catch while he is moving and drive.

I saw a lot of selfishness and forced shots from Ray and some from Rondo and I didn’t like it. Paul was on fire and they sat him, then stopped going to him. This is the same team that couldn’t stop Pierce in game 5 (he torched Ariza).

by agh on Dec 26, 2008 2:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Recently the Celtics have been running a ton of top side screens with Rondo and Pierce late in games that has been getting Pierce switched over to a PG guarding him and have led to him taking 15 foot jumpers over men much smaller than him. It’s been a very effect late game play.

Where exactly are you seeing this late game selfishness on Ray and Rondo’s part and the ignoring of Pierce in fourth quarters because I just don’t see where you are coming from.

by nickagneta on Dec 26, 2008 3:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ray not Rondo

Ray was handling the ball too much that didn’t lose us the game completely, but it was a major factor for the loss. Rondo knows his role, I think he would have got Paul the ball more. Doc should have had a bigger role, some fault goes his way.

by Nine on Dec 26, 2008 4:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Most often it happens when Paul is open for 3 and rondo drives to the hoop with a man on him instead of hitting Paul. Don’t get me wrong, I love Rondo and think he is an all star this year. I just think he is hesitant to pass the ball to Pierce because then Paul controls the offense. I don’t think he should be the one to decide whether Pierce should control/take over the game or not. I think that should be Doc (or Pierce if he is feeling it)

Ray had a chip on his shoulder for whatever reason this game. He forced when he didn’t have it going all game. That ridiculously forced 3 from deep comes to mind. Ray needs to understand that, with the game on the line, Pierce is the number one option.

by agh on Dec 26, 2008 8:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not A Big Deal

The Celtics are a family. Brothers argue and fight. Then they make up or let it go. The C’s didn’t play well, the Laker’s did and they beat us. Let’s get on with it and not start working up all sorts of trade rumors or rumors of internal strife.

by TrueGreen on Dec 26, 2008 10:56 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Magnitude of this game?

I just don’t understand. The Celtics for a couple of weeks have openly admitted that this was just another game. They have played playoff atmosphere games versus quite a number of teams that are bringing to them because they are the champs. None of the starters played unusually long minutes(Ray had 42 but he often plays over 40 when his shot doesn’t drop as Doc likes to see him shoot his way out of mini slumps.) Doc didn’t change his rotations. I really do believe that this group doesn’t look at things the way we fans do and that for them this was just another game.

The Celtics starters knew they could outplay and beat the Lakers and stupid mistakes and bad passes by Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, who combined had 8 turnovers between them, cost this team the win. Every time the Celtics had a good stop defensively in the third and fourth, it seemed a Pierce or Allen pass into the stands ensued. Rondo knows his role and that is to get the ball and facillitate. He had 12 assists. But there are times where Pierce and Allen try to run the break when the opposition is getting back on defense and instead of pulling back and letting Rondo run the show they try to force the issue and……wala…..turnover.

On that play Ray held the ball and held the ball and Rondo hung back on Ray’s left wing awaiting the pass on a give and go. Ray wouldn’t give up control of the ball. Rondo rightly waited and waited. When he finally broke towards the basket because Ray had passed half court by over 15 feet, Ray finally, mistakenly passed the ball and it went behind Rondo. It was like the second of five really bad possessions by Ray and Pierce that cost the Celtics getting into the game a lot quicker than they could have.

I think the frustration on Ray and Rondo’s part could have happened against any team and at any time. Rondo was on his game and Ray and Pierce weren’t. Suddenly Ray is getting on the youngster and Rondo defended himself because he knew he was in the right and playing good, smart ball.

Personally, I think stuff like this among five guys that really like and care for each other is good for them and establishes set roles that will be followed later. This team almost has an All-Star teaming starting for them and not just a Big Three anymore. Adjustment are going to need to be made by all to create the best possible efficacy. That can sometimes by hard to do.

I think this episode and game was good for this team and will set them on their way to the best three loss record in league history and will teach them how they need to play when on the road against the elite teams.

In a way I feel bad for Portland, Cleveland, Detroit, Orlando and Toronto as this game will have taught the Celtics exactly what has to happen on the road for them to beat quality teams and those teams are going to learn the hard way that the Celtics are a special team.

by nickagneta on Dec 26, 2008 11:00 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Arguing is definitely a positive, the way we played was the issue

Arguing amongst each other is a must in any successful operation. That is nothing to be alarmed about, that is a positive. However, I’m not sure why but the Celtics completely reverted to last year’s style of play. The keys to the offense were stripped from Rondo and he was doing a lot of standing and spotting up, unlike anything we have seen in the last 19 games. Again, I’m not sure why this was and I’m not ready to give the Lakers any credit for this. Pierce and Allen were resorting much more to being creators instead of just letting Rondo do that and spotting up.

Also, Rondo was possibly a bit too hyped up for this game. You could tell from the get go, he was taking questionable shots where he almost always passes off for an easy layup. I can’t blame Rondo for wanting to prove how good he has become, but if he had just played his game we would have won, regardless of how many points he scored. I know that when we meet the Lakers again, we will make the proper adjustments.

SCOTT

by Vegas Scott on Dec 26, 2008 11:14 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

TEAM

It was bound to happen…teamwork is very difficult to keep up. Egos do exist. Lesson learned (I hope). It is too bad it happened during the Christmas game, but you have to credit Laker defense a little bit…and blame the refs (a little bit more)…and hope the “teamwork” breakdown reinforces the need. Timing is everything in sports and the teamwork timing was a little off yesterday, while the Lakers were on. It happens.

Onward to start the next win streak….to home court and to the championship.

by thirstyboots18 on Dec 26, 2008 11:48 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's to the next win streak!

-sw

Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.

by Steve Weinman on Dec 26, 2008 12:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a lot of overreaction...

This wasn’t the first time this team has argued on the court, won’t be the last. A lot of knee-jerk posts asking for a new player or two— probably much like my overreaction to all the terrible refereeing going both ways, as it was an intense game for both players and fans at home like me.

What I saw was the Celtics worst game of the year by far. The ONLY stretch of good, win-streak caliber basketball began right around the time Mark Spears cited in the 3rd, and lasted until PP came out. At the time I questioned Doc’s move— Pierce was rocking his defenders and nailing his jumpers— but I figured Doc would bring him back to start the fourth and close it out. But Doc let Ray close the 3rd, and start the 4th, and Ray only got a short blow later on— then couldn’t hit a shot down the stretch.

Then no execution in the last two minutes: no KG on the post, no attacking the basket by Pierce or Rondo, just 3 or 4 contested 3’s. Ugly. I wish we hadn’t lost to the hated Lakers, but it keeps the Lakers overconfident, and gets us mad and on another streak!

by datruthyall on Dec 26, 2008 12:08 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As far as overreacting:

almost no one is overreacting. We are pointing out how to strengthen the team and that it needs some help. The cavs are supergood. We have to get home court and we are barely ahead of the cavs. I repeat that not having hc will be a huge hurdle and having hc will cause a huge hurdle for everyone else. The cavs nearly lost yesterday. We have to get better and have to retain hc. period. If we wanetd a sure thing we should have re-signed Posey. We didn’t so we need to get it doen another way

by wahz on Dec 26, 2008 12:15 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with Garnett

Communication is the foundation of every good team and especially of every good defense. No problem at all, except that Ray should have got to his defensive assignment while barking with Rondo.

by cordobes on Dec 26, 2008 12:16 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i saw all this happen, and honestly i don’t think its anything. nothing is being downplayed. they argued becuase rondo cut one way when ray thought he was going the other, it really happens in basketball all the time.

by xmuscular ghandix on Dec 26, 2008 12:27 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just a bad day at the office

I wouldn’t read to much into the Ray-Rondo “argument”…those that have played some sort of organized bball (or any sport for that matter) understand….I think the lack of room service (Dec.25th) at the hotel factor into the short tempers…lol

by Fastbreak1 on Dec 26, 2008 4:24 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just another game - not

If it was “just another game” to the c’s there is no way there would be bickering/arguing. This meant as much to both teams as will their next meeting. These 2 teams expect to meet in the finals which is great. Doc only said that because he knew it would seem an even better victory psychologically if the Lakers were trying their a$$es off and the c’s were just going through the motions and the c’s won.
It will be an intriguing match up next time and if they meet in the finals.

by Oaks32 on Dec 26, 2008 4:58 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More bickering than communication …. but locker rooms need the odd in house fight to keep order, and this was a lame one at that. It’s a non-important incident.

by Who on Dec 26, 2008 10:05 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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