Doc Appreciates Scal

I do see were Scali has some value, he does do a lot of little things.
I just think thats were the problem starts. We need a pf who grabs that many minutes to do the big things too. Scoring and rebounding are necessities and frankly Scali just doesnt score or rebound. If doc had a pf who only averaged 8 ppg , he would bench him saying we need scoring,Scali doesnt even score a third of that and he deserves 20 minutes. i like Scali i just think he gets more minutes than big baby and powe for the little things that they do just as well

Sorry, but the “little” things Scal does are just too “little” and not enough. Those one or two good defensive plays he makes once every few games does not warrant a start. Powe making one less good defensive play, but actually produce some real stats on the other end would be more beneficial to the team.

Scal has not been as effective as Doc is trying to claim. He’s just trying to justify starting him.

Tonight is the perfect game not to start Scal. The Cavs are a good rebounding team and having a big guy that doesn’t rebound in the starting lineup could get them down early.

Maybe Scal will prove me wrong and have a great game tonight, but I doubt it.

I don’t dislike Scal, but I do hate watching him play.

Scal is incredibly overpaid for what he provides. He should be playing for a veteran minimum if at all.

we appreciate what scal does but not as much as doc and not when more talented players sit.

perk said:
  I do see were Scali has some value, he does do a lot of little things.
I just think thats were the problem starts. We need a pf who grabs that many minutes to do the big things too. Scoring and rebounding are necessities and frankly Scali just doesnt score or rebound. If doc had a pf who only averaged 8 ppg , he would bench him saying we need scoring,Scali doesnt even score a third of that and he deserves 20 minutes. i like Scali i just think he gets more minutes than big baby and powe for the little things that they do just as well

1. We do have a pf that does the big things—James Posey
2. Powe and BBD can’t defend perimeter players like Scals
3. But be happy, once KG is healthy Scals minutes will go down.

If they haven’t already, people should read “Report Form Today’s Practice” in the Forums. It gives some behind the scenes insight as to why decisions to play certain players are made. Even though we think we are experts and know more than Doc, we really don’t.

I read the Report from Today’s Practice and it does shed some light on why Davis isn’t playing much. But it doesn’t explain why Scal is starting over Powe. Scal doesn’t spread the floor because he doesn’t make shots and while he does a decent job defending the perimeter, the fact that he gives you zero on the other end (no rebounds and no points) pretty much negates what little he does give you.

count me among the Scal haters. He is my least favorite player on this team by a long shot. Danny and Doc may be right about his intangibles but for what he is paid he ought to give us more than an occasional 3 pointer or taking an offensive charge. Apparently Big Baby has lost minutes because he hasn’t played hard or is showing off or something like that. I’ll still take him starting over Veal any day of the week. Sometimes Doc goes to far to make a point and costs his team a game.

Bankshot said:
  I read the Report from Today’s Practice and it does shed some light on why Davis isn’t playing much. But it doesn’t explain why Scal is starting over Powe. Scal doesn’t spread the floor because he doesn’t make shots and while he does a decent job defending the perimeter, the fact that he gives you zero on the other end (no rebounds and no points) pretty much negates what little he does give you.[/quote]
I wasn’t trying to make a point specifically about Scal’s, only that we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. And the “little things” do help win games.
[quote] Red2 said:
  count me among the Scal haters. He is my least favorite player on this team by a long shot. Danny and Doc may be right about his intangibles but for what he is paid he ought to give us more than an occasional 3 pointer or taking an offensive charge. Apparently Big Baby has lost minutes because he hasn’t played hard or is showing off or something like that. I’ll still take him starting over Veal any day of the week. Sometimes Doc goes to far to make a point and costs his team a game.

BBD is better near the basket, not on the periphery. BBD couldn’t guard Nowitzki and Scals can. Also Powe hasn’t hurt us. Powe is taking BBD’s minutes, not Scals. Also, what point is Doc trying to make that is costing us games (forgot to say above that Posey could be taking BBD’s minutes). Who do you want at the end of a tight game, BBD or Posey? And finally, we’ve lost 8 games. Which of those games was lost because BBD didn’t play?

I think part of the reason Danny brought in Scal was at that particular time there was a need for professionalism and mentorship in the lockerroom. A lot of the youngsters did not know how to prepare for games, how to act away from the floor, how to act in practice, how to prepare the night before a game. Danny brought in Scal to be an example of the right things to do.
I would concur with the sentiment that Scal and his contract are far from the detriment they are sometimes being made out to be. Vilify him all you want, but Scal and his contract are far from problems or concern.

Master Po—What? We are Celtic fans. We neeeed to beat on someone. I think we should turn our attention to Scott Pollard. The last I heard is that he’s working as a doorman at a hotel near the Garden. He wears his uniform under his doorman’s coat and can be reached by cellphone if needed. He makes more in tips than Scals does in salary. And this is just Boston. He might be doing the same on the road.

Edgar said:
…LOT of players that could help for that kind of money , better than Scal probably bringing the same defense to the table and helping grab a couple of boards while doing that

Who??? And how do we get him here? Besides, we already have that guy, Posey.

tmcdon, exellent point. Also Scals was playing very well for the Nets before he came here.

Oh I get it. This is yet another ploy by Doc Rivers to hide an awful performance by Scal. So because he shadowed the ball well, we’re supposed to ignore 0 points and 0 rebounds from our starting 4 man? Jeff, nobody has anything personal against Scal, they just know how to read a box score. I just can’t remember the last time an NBA coach was telling me how great someone shadowed the ball.

I mean come on, I’m all about the little thing but you’ve got to be kidding me. I wish when I was a player I could have gotten away with producing nothing at all, then have my coach praise me after the game. I mean the mere thought of Doc praising Scal after a game in which he does about as much as any fan sitting in a seat, shows us that clearly Doc has a soft spot for Scal and this is why he continues to start over better players such as Powe and Davis in Garnett’s absence.

Also Scals was playing very well for the Nets before he came here.

Scal had a great point guard in Jason Kidd. Also, Danny probably just noticed how he played against the C’s and not other teams. With a point guard like Jason Kidd and playing against the Celtics terrible front court (Raef&Blount) any scrub big man could have a big night (and Scal did have some really good rebounding games against the C’s). Scal was never a good shooter as Danny claimed. Not sure which stats he was looking at when he signed Scal.

The problem with Scal has nothing to do with this year. It’s the past few years when the Cs were horrible and Doc continued to run Scal out there while guys like Big Al and Powe had to struggle to stay on the court. Doc’s insistence on playing Scal, even though he did nothing to make the team better or more likely to win games, instead of younger players who needed to play in order to get better, made Scal the focus of a lot of Doc hate.

Mike

 :-\ The little things that Scal does is overvalued by Doc. Yes he can set picks and keep the motion offense running and makes less mental mistakes on D. But his net play is still negative. He has one of the worst /- numbers on a good team. Things like scoring and rebounding were tracked for a reason – because they matter more then little things. If setting a pick was the major indicator of success they would track that..

Scal also leads the league in inbound passes per minute and high fives. More things that you just can’t find in the box score.

Can anyone give us one good reason as to why Doc would intentionally play a player that brought no value whatsoever to the floor? Scal isn’t his son-in-law or anything… Doc wants to be thought of as a great coach and win a championship just as much as we want Banner 17. There has to be something that you just aren’t seeing. The only way that BBD is better than Scal at this point is if he is getting touches on the offensive end of the floor. If he is starting, that means that Ray and Paul and Rondo aren’t taking those shots. With Scal on the floor, he is content to free up guys with picks, hustle on D (which he is better than BBD by far) and keep the flow going. He is a solid perimeter defender which neither Powe or BBD are. Someone above had it right with the comment that Scal only takes BBD minutes. Powe takes Perks minutes. That throws that out of the equation. Sure BBD has 1 out of 4 games where he will blow up on offense and cause this discussion, but the other 3 he committs stupid fouls and gets yanked because he isn’t giving them anything.

All in all here is the biggest issue. Who do you trust to give you an honest assessment of his play and value? Danny and Doc who see him practice all season, break down gametape and see every little thing? Guys on a sports blog, who most of them probably have never played any competitive basketball in their lives? Hmmmmm…. I think I will trust the experts…

I think perhaps Doc does do some rationalization of Scals production during games to help justify his minutes to us fans. However, I would assume that how you play in Doc’s practices has a big role in how many minutes you get, especially when involving young players. BBD will not learn how to be a good pro, if he is rewarded for minutes due to talent and not effort. Again I’m assuming here, but I think Scal probably really brings it in practice and BBD has not. Also, if you don’t understand the offense, ex. Powe last year, you can’t be on the court in games.

Scal knows the offense, is able to maintain a smooth flow, for the other players, who are the ones that should be taking the shots anyways.

Finally, I know we put a lot of emphsis on numbers, but can anyone tell me that they just watch scal every game and see that he is out of position trying to box out or not making an effort to grab a board? Maybe he is just keeping his man off the glass and clearing the boards for KG, PP, Rondo and the rest?

Finally, I’m just trying to be devils advocate here, I hate watching Scal play too, I just don’t think he is a real big detriment to the bottom line – winning.

Sure, let’s trust the “experts”— the ones that brought you eighteen straight losses, the war in Iraq… They know best.

This is just Rivers talking out of a certain orififice that is not his mouth. Happens all the time. I have eyes. I’ve been watching the NBA since before Rivers was born. I can see for myself what Scalabrine brings: not very much. If it weren’t for all the fouls, Scalabrine’s typical line in the box score looks like binary code.

Jeff,

You keep harping about the contract. No one really cares about the contract. We know it stinks, but it’s rather small so it’s no biggie. We care about one of the worst players in the NBA getting a starting role and 20mpg over more deserving guys.

Easy to claim the stats you like and dismiss the ones you don’t. Funny how no one brought up his 5 boards in 17 minutes in Miami… Funny how no one brings up the fact that we haven’t had a terrorist attack here in the U.S. since we made them fight the battle over in IRAQ… Funny how you aren’t quoting Doc’s 36-8 record this year.

Let’s face it guys. Some people just look at the glass half empty and don’t appreciate what they have. Others try to look for the good things that Scal brings to the table. Sure, he’s not an all star. He is a positive influence on this team however whether it is from the bench/locker room, or in the game for a small amount of minutes in the occasional game. (Only 10 min a game vs. 19 last yr) I am guessing that Doc tries to bring out the positive in guys. I think we can see on this board who doesn’t. If you relate more to the negative personality in life then I feel for you…

OK.. he’s a positive influence.. but it let it be from the bench.

OK.. he’s a positive influence.. but it let it be from the bench.And I’m certainly not ignoring stats. There are heaps of stats, both of the traditional variety and newer ones (PER, adjusted /-, 82games’s Roland Rating) that suggests he’s one of the worst players in the league.

OK.. he’s a positive influence.. but it let it be from the bench.And I’m certainly not ignoring stats. There are heaps of stats, both of the traditional variety and newer ones (PER, adjusted /-, 82games’s Roland Rating) that suggests he’s one of the worst players in the league.So fine.. keep on the bench. Keep him cheering and getting along with the guys. Let him play scrub minutes as a reward. Just don’t frickin’ start him, please.

EJPLAYA said:
  Easy to claim the stats you like and dismiss the ones you don’t. Funny how no one brought up his 5 boards in 17 minutes in Miami…

You want to talk about his 5 boards (probably the most he’s ever had as a Celtic) against the worst team in the league and a team that has Blount as its starting center?LOL Doc is that you?

I appreciate Scal. He’s done a very good job filling in for KG. And once KG returns, Scal shall resume his place just outside the normal rotation and be a situational sub. He was the best choice to fill in for KG.

EJPLAYA, good comments. The anti-Scal people are like people who think they have seen UFOs. Logic is irrelevant. Their eyes don’t lie. Question…why would Doc start a guy this totally bad? Answer…Doc is stupid. Scal makes too much money!!! Yes he does, but it isn’t Adonal Foyle, Kwame Brown etc etc. I am a sucker for BBD and Leon. I love them. But if Scal is getting some run it is because he’s earned it. Why else? WHY ELSE? Doc certainly knows Scal is a 4 who stands behind the 3 pt arc and misses and knows his rebounds are minimal (akin to Weinstein’s article on Jason Collins).

ugh.. the “logic” of the situation is that there’s a heap of statistical evidence that points to Scal being amongst the worst players in the NBA. Nor do I think anyone will contend he’s some 1-on-1 defensive stopper to make up for his other shortcomings (ala Bruce Bowen). People who ignore that and just say, “Doc knows what he’s doing” are the ones ignoring logic, not me. It’s a classic case of appealing to authority, which as we all know is one of the best known logical fallacies.

It’s still amazing to log and see fans who believe they know more about probasketball than a man who has actually played and coached in the league and has the respect of all those around him. It’s amazing. We’re all entitled to our opinions, but at some point opinions ought to be tempered with a dose of realism no?

There are plenty of intangibles that as viewing fans we probably don’t “see.” None of us know the nuances of the Celtic’s offensive and defensive sets, how the players are supposed to rotate, where they are supposed to be and when they are supposed to be there, positioning on the floor at key times, etc. It is quite possible that Scal does all of the things that Doc asks of him in a far superior manner than either BBD or Powe. I am a huge Powe fan (Powe should be given a life contract imo) and would love to see him start, but if Doc believes, for whatever reason, that Scal should start I may not like it, but I am certainly not arrogant enough to believe I know better than him.
Scal knows his role, and he’s big enough to go in, do exactly what he’s supposed to when he’s supposed to do it, and has thick enough skin to ignore fans who deride him. He’s an asset to the Celtics, no doubt, and his paltry $3M a year is essentially meaningless to the teams salary outlook.

tmcdon – 100% on the money…

I still have yet to hear a valid rational reason for Doc to play Scal other than deserving the minutes/being the most capable of filling that spot. These guys obviously are just basketball ’’talkers’’ and if playing would be categorized into that group with low basketball IQ. Maybe great athletes, but just don’t get it done because they don’t really understand the game. They are the same group that think TA is the next Jordan. Sure I would love to have an athlete with high basketball IQ. Oh yeah, we have 3 of them. For some reason there aren’t that many all-stars out there sitting at the end of NBA benches. Come on people. No one is all bad or all good out there. If someone tries to sell you otherwise then turn and run. Stop trying to sell that Scal is the worst player in the league. Maybe if you did we’d try and understand your point.

There is no attempt to tell people they can’t have an opinion. My comment did not call someone individually out unlike some of the replies to my post. I merely stated that people shouldn’t put a whole lot of faith in the knowledge of someone who states that Scal has absolutely no value whatsoever. That comment is completely without merit, and in a BLOG where discussion of other posters ideas and thoughts is the purpose of being on here, completely a valid assessment. If you truly feel that Scal has no basketball value whatsoever then there is no debating the fact that you have low basketball IQ. If you are just overstating to make a point, then stating that you think he brings very little to the table, and then making a specific case as to why player B should be playing instead is just fine. Then it is just differing opinions.

I do however find it funny Po that you like to jump into a disagreement of points that didn’t have anything to do with your very odd post in this thread… Just as I have no idea how much basketball you have played in your life my friend, you have no idea how much basketball I have watched! If you doubt that please confer with my wife. She might disagree with your assessment. Anyway, if you read the post, I was making a comparison to the two stlyles of posters on here to NBA players either being smart players, or great athletes. If you chose to put that label on yourself then it’s on you. I wouldn’t put you personally in that category.

No one ‘’called you out’’ Po, or anyone else, but it is good to know that you are the one in control of someone ‘’finding themselves somewhere else’‘. If you find that comment above something that needs to be lightened up, maybe re-read your reply and ask yourself if the shoe might fit on someone else’s foot. Yours was an attack at me, mine was a general statement about people making over reaching comments…

Well, I’m with you Master Po, so I guess I have a low BBIQ also. Welcome to the club.

No one is saying Scalabrine has no value or that he never does good things. What we are saing is that he’s markedly inferior to the alternatives, namely Powe and BBD.

Scalabrine is a veteran in the prime of his career. Powe is a second year player, and BBD is a rookie who left school a year early. You would expect Scalabrine to understand the rotations a little better.

Rivers is being loyal to his veterans by playing Scalabrine. That loyalty is misplaced. Aside from his experience, Scalabrine brings almost nothing to the table, and every minute that he gets is one less minute that the Celtics could use to develop a player like BBD, whose upside is far greater than Scalabrine’s. Rivers’ decision to play Scalabrine cheats the fans, and cheats the franchise.

No, No, No!!! That IS what the posts above were saying. That reply just now was absolutely within reason and not what I was referring to. Examples:

i wish someone would hand me $15 million and have no expectations of me whatsoever…I can do the “little things” like pick up trash and run the coffee pot.

Sorry, but I wish people would stop defending this clown. He’d struggle in the D-League…

Jeff: I know you are lord of this site, but you can’t just dismiss a guy making $3 million per year that does NOTHING for this team as no little thing.

Scal also leads the league in inbound passes per minute and high fives. More things that you just can’t find in the box score.

This seems to be people stating that he does absolutely nothing to help the Celtics and has no value at all. This is what my comments were referring to. You’re last one sure softened off of your original, but at least can be discussed. You do throw in there the ‘’brings almost nothing to the table’’ which is close to the extreme, but then at least try to point out who you’d rather have.

Here’s the rebuttal though. You can’t play a player who has potential who is not doing the things he ought to do in practice and in games to earn those minutes. Powe is currently being rewarded for his on the court play, and from what has been said has consistently been busting his tail in practice. He is taking Perks minutes though, and not BBD or Scals. BBD on the other hand makes way too many mistakes in games that hurt the team more often than not. Sure he has a game or two with the flash of potential. The problem though is you can’t reward him when he screws up and doesn’t bring it in practice. This is the same discussion we had with Big AL, and until he put the same effort into practice and the offseason for that matter, and came into games and put out effort on the defensive end, he didn’t get as much run as others. That sitting is what caused him to buckle down in the offseason, get in shape, and come back hungry. The fact of the matter is that BBD is too fat and not in the shape he needs to be in. Maybe this year sitting on his butt will allow him to decide what it takes to be a pro. Giving him minutes only tells him he can stay this way and coast along. See Oliver Miller…

Manboobs is playing better this season because it somehow occurred to him that he can’t shoot….So he doesn’t. That is a brilliant decision on his part. He’s going to injure somebody with one of those 3-pt bricks he chucks up.

That being said. His rebounding numbers are at best, embarassing for somebody (as it says in the program) ;D :D 6-9, 235. For pete’s sake, folks, he went over a month this season without getting a single rebound. That is one of those trivial tangible things a team needs from their big men.

I believe the person with the high basketball IQ who was talking about all of us lowly posters with the low basketball IQs was extolling the virtues of a certain coach while he was positioning his team to lose game after game and disgracing the game. I believe he said that he thought playing the youth in that situation was somehow not detrimental to the development of said youth. Hmm….

While not necessarily loathing Manboobs, PLAYA, I believe there has to be something beyond the theoretic intangibles. Like perhaps an occasional rebound. There is no comparison to Bowen. Bowen is a lockdown defender who can shoot. Scal is a decent defender who can’t shoot. Actually, it’s hard to compare Scal to any NBA player at any of the positions he plays on the court. Scal would be a horrible rebounder at the 3. Let alone at 4 or 5.

Imagine that…Plowboy is chipping in! I do find you truly enjoyable to banter with Plowboy. I don’t think you take it personal or too seriously like some of these guys… If that isn’t accurate then I am sorry. At least you try and continue discussing things. Some others on here come in and make an irrational comment and tell you that you have your head in the sand, and then won’t reply when their feeble argument is exposed. They just move on to another post so their superiority can’t be challenged. I thought this was a discussion?! Keep up the posts Plowboy!

Not once did I say that I was one of High Basketball IQ, rather I would put myself out there in the moderate category. I do feel like I understand the game reasonably well as I watch it, and as I play it. The difference this year versus last year is where this team is headed. When the team can play a perfect game for them and still have under a 50% chance of winning then building up your youth is perfectly fine. Had we not done that, then we may not currently have KG or Ray. When you should be in the conference finals and possibly the NBA finals, it is a totally different story. If Scal is better prepared to play right now then he should be the one on the floor. If BBD is not putting out max effort on the practice court then he should sit his lazy fat butt down and watch. There is no room on a championship team for a player who is gifted his minutes. That causes mutiny on a team. I guarantee you that every one of the big three respect Scals effort. If you want to argue that Posey should get Scal’s minutes instead, then we can have that discussion. I was perfectly content with him at the end of the bench. He does however currently fill KG’s spot better than BBD. That’s the point, nothing more! Scal has averaged 2.4 rebounds per game in his entire career with only 14.7 min a game. Not exactly no rebounds at all. Considering he plays on the perimeter in isolation plays, and when he is in the middle is typically going away from the basket to set a pick, his offensive rebounds are not going to be there often. On D he is also often going away from the basket out to a defender on the perimeter it explains some of that as well. We have Rondo who gets a lot of long rebounds which reduces the available long boards for him. BBD and Powe however camp down low around the rim. Due to often being undersized defenders in the post players back them down on D as well. Of course they are going to get a couple more opportunities to get a missed shot… It’s not that hard to think see!

That being said, I will be perfectly happy when a healthy KG comes back into the lineup and Scal goes back to his place on the bench. I’m not a Scal Lover, just not a hater either…

Point in case from the game. Right before half time, Scal steps out on the pick and roll at the three and then cuts back hard into the middle and steals the pass. A couple plays later BBD goes out to defend the pick and roll, but then fouls the top man as he slides across and he hits 2 free throws. BBD sits there with that stupid ‘’what did I do?!’’ look on his face that I am starting to not like. I am sure the refs aren’t liking it either and he is going to become known for this if he doesn’t stop. Your big old belly bumps them everytime you do this Glen so stop trying to push them straight out with your beef. You do have pretty quick feet for as big as you are so use them!!

ooh.. look, hand picking instances where Scal shows some competence.

ooh.. look, hand picking instances where Scal shows some competence.Now, look at what just happened in the second half. Scal blows a 3 on 2 by letting Larry Hughes block his shot. Next possession he catches the ball 8 feet from the basket and travels. Then he gets scored on in the next possession.

ooh.. look, hand picking instances where Scal shows some competence.Now, look at what just happened in the second half. Scal blows a 3 on 2 by letting Larry Hughes block his shot. Next possession he catches the ball 8 feet from the basket and travels. Then he gets scored on in the next possession.Brick got it right. Of course Scal does some things better than Powe and BBD, namely rotations, mainly due to his experience. But his negatives far outweigh those situations. Powe and BBD are the opposite, they’ll mess up a rotation here and there and make some dumb fouls, but their positives outweigh those instances. Plus, the more they play in them, the faster they’ll learn. If they get in foul trouble or just can’t get it right that night and it’s killing the team, THEN you sub in Scal.

With that logic, PP should get yanked. He commits as many turnovers dribbling behind his back through a double team as anyone out there. BBD does not give you as much overall value most nights that Scal does. You’re not judging those two with the same critical eye that you are Scal. If Scal makes a couple mistakes in the game but allows the offense to flow better those meager 15 minutes he’s out there, then how is that worse than BBD’s constant mistakes?! It’s your hatred of scal, nothing more.

Keep in mind. He is playing 15-20 min a night with KG out. It’s not like Doc is playing him 35-40 minutes.