3 at the full MLE.

What does that do to the team’s ability to sign a few other players (let’s say House and Andersen)?

SShoreFan 2.0 said:
  3 at the full MLE.

What does that do to the team’s ability to sign a few other players (let’s say House and Andersen)?

I don’t think it matters. Posey is the key guy here. There are other players to fill in the other slots, which probably won’t be filled with the greatest players. Posey is unique in his abilities and there is no one player that can replace him.

Ainge should tell Posey to sign before the end of the day today. If Posey does not, Ainge is going to present an offer sheet to Josh Childress or Nenad Krstic, and Posey can wait 8 days before knowing whether there is a place for him on the Celtics.

Boston has a line of free agents wanting to come here stretching around the block.

Who are these free agents that are supposedly lining up to joint the Celtics? Peitris, Maggette, Barry? Most of the good ones weren’t waiting to joint the Celtics, just mostly scrubs left (with the exception of Posey and possibly Childress, who we probably have no chance at getting).

There isn’t one free agent waiting to sign with the Celtics that can fill Posey’s shoes, which Posey’s agent knows.

This doesn’t surprise me. As I said in a post a couple days ago, a team has Cleveland has more to lose by signing Posey to a long term deal than Boston does. Unless Danny pulls a couple more miracles or the Big Three are super human, this team isn’t going to be contending in 4 years. Thus, having Posey for an extra year isn’t going to kill us. The Cavs, on the other hand, should be competitive as long as they have LeBron. Posey could actually hurt their chances of winning a title in a couple years.

Bartelsteins latest comments wreak of desperation.

Posey will be here for 3 years.

Then next year we will trade for DWade.

it’s poker stare-down time. good luck danny. a question—what happens to the luxury salary cap money that goes to the nba? what do they do with it?

nazzbo said:
  … a question—what happens to the luxury salary cap money that goes to the nba? what do they do with it?

I think it’s split, by formula, to teams not into the tax. That’s how former owner Ron Gaston made his money and why we should appreciate our present owners.

Really, when will he sign the contract?

Why not just give Posey the 4th year and then trade him after the 3rd year in which he will be an expiring contract?

To continue my post:

…. so that we can move on and sign other players before the good ones are all gone.

Roy Hobbs, thanks for your more complete explanation of the luxury tax. According to your description, does this mean the C’s may be able to get back some of the money they paid into the luxury tax pool?. If so, the luxury tax may not be as much of an issue as it’s made out to be. It makes me think more is going on with the Posey contract than the mle and number of years. It could be they are working on something in addition to this. In my dream world James has already decided to come back, but the stall is because something else is going on. Please say you agree with me (or dream with me). I really think he’s that important to this team.

Bankshot said:
  To continue my post:

…. so that we can move on and sign other players before the good ones are all gone.

I’m not sure this is a problem. All the players that have signed would either not be available to us because of cost, fit or value. Anyone else out there seems to fall into these same categories. ESPN lists, besides Posey as “The Best of Rest”
Josh Smith, Iguodala and Okafur. I don’t see Smith or Iguodala as good fits here. Okafur might be a possiblility as a Perk backup or even a starter (not really sure). Okafur is restricted, and I would have expected that he would be set already. Biedrins from Golden St is also restricted and still available. Both would probably be in the 7-10 mill range. Not sure how good Biedrins is. I just wonder if Danny is working on a sign and trade for a big.

At what point does Danny say to Posey’s agent “In 24 hours, we are going to move on to plan B”?

Brickowski’s right, Ainge needs to set a deadline. Posey’s agent is just dragging this out, hoping Ainge will blink. Meanwhile, the Celtics could get hurt if they don’t move soon enough on other free agents.

Set a time to put up, or shut up. As a courtesy, first inform Posey and agent of it, and then make it public.

Truth Hurts said:
  At what point does Danny say to Posey’s agent “In 24 hours, we are going to move on to plan B”?

I don’t think this is a good way for Danny to deal with a respected player. Danny’s worked hard to bring back decency to this organization. I can see where Danny needs to protect the Celtic’s needs in a business transaction, but it needs to be done in a respectful and fair manner. Other present players and free agents are looking at how this Posey matter is handled by the organization. Now, many players want to come here because it is a respected organization that handles these things correctly. We don’t want to ruin this. I agree that at some time we need to move on, but I think this will be settled soon. And, as I said before, I don’t see the immediate rush to turn away from a player who can really help us and who fits in here.

I don’t like the idea of setting a deadline. It’s very aggressive and full of ill-will. Sends an awful message.

This is a guy we want to keep. A guy who played an important role on our championship winning side.

Let’s not go out of our way to treat him badly

I don’t see setting a deadline as being particulary aggressive, disrespectful or indecent. It’s business-like. You’ve made it clear you want Posey. If he chooses to decline your offer, you’re sorry, but there’s no hard feelings. Time to move on. There’s no need to treat Posey like an infant.

Make it clear to players and agents that you intend to run your business as a business. It will keep you out of trouble.

Agreed, nokidding.

I strongly disagree that setting a deadline is disrespecting Posey or anything like that. The reality is: the longer this goes on, the tougher it is for the Celts to recover if he goes elsewhere. There are deals going down every day. It’s not fair to Danny to drag this out, when whatever player/players are part of Plan B could go elsewhere. Posey’s agent is in effect holding the Celts hostage at this point. Obviously, every interested party has their offer on the table. If anyone was going to budge, it would have happened by now. Danny needs to resolve this before he can do anything else. Posey is not helping the Celts right now, dragging this out. It is even threatening to screw them out of signing other players that don’t even play Posey’s position, because Danny does not know how much he can spend until this is resolved.

Posey is well within his rights to drag this out, if that is what is best for him. And Danny is well within his rights to set a deadline, if that is what is best for the Celts. If Posey really intends to re-sign, and Danny sets a deadline. Posey’s agent can tell other interested teams to give him their final offers so Posey can make a decision.

$hit or get off the pot, BGJ.

If you have any experience negotiating, you set a deadline.

I guess Batelstein figures that if he was able to hose Ainge on Mark Blount’s contract, he can do it again.

It’s been what 2-3 days since Free Agency opened for official signings. It’s way too early in the process to go around setting deadlines and giving ultimatums. It needs more time to play out before that becomes the best course of action.

No, you need toset the deadline now. The good free agents will go first, and if Posey drags things out, the Celtics may lose out on other valuable players.

We are just starting to see the most valuable restricted free agents get offer sheets. That process will accelerate. The best unrestricted free agents are already gone.

Who are you worried about missing out on?

Who, I tip my hat to your extensive knowledge of NBA players. And if you argue that the Celtic’s choices among backup centers and point guards are limited, and that there isn’t much difference between them, then I’m willing to say you might be right.

But regardless: I want Ainge to be able to get the best of what’s out there. The difference in playoff games can come down to very small things. So I don’t want to miss out on anyone and settle for second best, just because Posey’s agent is trying to play me along.

Let Posey look to his interests, and Ainge to his.

Well Who, I mentioned two of them earlier: Josh Childress and Nenad Krstic.

IMHO Childress was a pretty good 6th man for the Hawks last year and he’s also 6-8. The Hawks may have to match a huge offer sheet for Josh Smith and may not have the financial flexibility to match a fair market offer for Childress.

As for Krstic, he’s a 7 footer and was a very good offensive player before his injury.

Arroyo, Najera, Nachbar and Hermann are four other guys who interest me. None of them will lilely cost the full MLE, but they won’t be available with the LLE either.

Lastly there are Eddie House and Tony Allen.

Libermaniac, your logic escapes me.

You say Posey didn’t like it that he waited around last year, only to accept the Celtics low ball offer. So therefore he won’t wait this year, and will soon take this year’s low ball offer from the Celtics? And he’s more likely to this, because there’s no deadline?

I’m waiting for someone to explain why a deadline imposed by Ainge isn’t in the interests of the Celtics. And please don’t bother with any emotional appeals about the respect, dignity, feelings, and pride of players and agents. Business is business.

Only Bartlestein could know that for sure.

Sorry Brick, missed your earlier post when you mentioned those guys.

I don’t like Childress. He’s a poor defender and he’s a poor jump shooter. Those are the two things I want most from by backup on the wing. The third skill that could change my mind is the ability to create your own shot which again Childress can’t do. I don’t like him for this team (nor for most teams), he’s a grossly overrated player. There’s some good things in his game but they’re not what I’m looking for on this Celtics team. I’d rather pass on him and sign someone else, any of about half a dozen other swingmen in free agency that likely will all be in the 1-3mil range on short term contracts.

Krstic is a risky signing. Could be great if he gets back to full health and effectiveness. Extra scoring option with some post skills and a very nice face up J with good range. Be nice to have another big man alongside KG who can score as KG gets older. Risky though. Very risky for a defending champion. Too risky for my taste.

Both will likely require 5 year full MLE offers just to test their teams. It’s possible they could be had though.

I’m not worried about losing either of those guys. I’d rather wait on Posey.

I think what libermaniac is getting at is the longer Posey waits the more his market place shrinks. Quite a few of his potential bidders are already off the table limiting his options and bargaining position.

Posey’s position looks weaker now than it did when free agency opened. Where will it be in four more days? How about a week? How about if he waits as long as last summer and gets bit in his rear end again?

So what? If Posey’s value on the market is dropping, shouldn’t Ainge lower his offer in the days ahead? There’s always a time dependent element to any offer, even if one pretends there isn’t.

In effect, Posey wants Ainge’s offer to sit there indefinitely while he looks to find something more, also, he hopes Ainge will increase it (because Ainge’s alternative market possibilities are also shrinking). Now I fully appreciate why Posey and his agent want to do this. I would too, as would any sensible person. But it’s not in the interests of the Celtics. A deadline is.

Again, explain to me why it isn’t?

Why should Ainge drop his offer? That’ll just insult him and send him towards the arms of whatever teams are still left in the bidding. That just hurts Danny’s chances of getting him here.

There is a time dependency in this situation but the time hasn’t run out yet and it’s not close to running out. It’s too early. It’s only been 2-3 days of official signings. Give it more time.

So we’re still with the insult thing?

Yes, in the silly world of professional sports, it’d certainly be a great and terrible insult for Ainge to lower his offer to Posey as Posey’s value dropped. But of course, it’s not an insult to the Celtics that Posey is out shopping around with Ainge’s offer in his back pocket, and while Ainge’s alternatives are disappearing.

That’s why it’s in the Celtic’s interest to set a deadline. In that way, you don’t have to worry about insulting anyone’s feelings.

I didn’t say his value dropped. I said his position was weaker because there were less bidders on the market. That doesn’t mean there isn’t one team there willing to pay the same price, just that Posey’s options were decreasing. Difference in suitors not necessarily value. Thus Ainge shouldn’t drop his price.

Now if Posey moseys on down for three weeks and finds himself in a situation where he clearly cannot get an MLE or close to it offer then Ainge could with all fairness lower his offer.

Posey isn’t asking for unfair starting money. The MLE is a fair price for a 6th man, especially one as proven as him. Length wise is a question mark. I wouldn’t pay him 5 years. I’d walk away from that and I wouldn’t spend my full MLE on anyone else because there’s nobody else good enough available. Four years he’s well worth that. Brent Barry got that in San Antonio at a similar age. Four years at the MLE is very fair.

But of course, it’s not an insult to the Celtics that Posey is out shopping around with Ainge’s offer in his back pocket, and while Ainge’s alternatives are disappearing.

Ainge is a big boy. He can go out and sign someone else at any moment in time. Danny went after Maggette and that’s fair enough. Posey isn’t stopping him.

Posey situation was clear from the word go, before he ever put on a Celtics jersey. He was signing short term so that he could try and gain one last long term contract. This is exactly what is always was going to be.

But giving the man a ultimatum which a deadline is this early in the day …. That’s not nice and it’s going to do Danny any favours in getting Posey to sign at the dotted line. Players don’t like that, just look at Elton Brand. Riley gave Posey a take it or leave it offer last summer which Posey didn’t like and said so – although in fairness it was far lower financially which was uncompetitive as well as offensive.

Okay. So even as we speak, Najera drops from the ranks of available players, shrinking Ainge’s alternatives. Meanwhile, Cleveland likely eliminates itself from the list of suitors for Posey, lessening his market position.

You know, if we did a poll on this blogsite, I’m sure you would’ve found a whole lot more people who would’ve advoceatd a four or five year offer to Posey three days ago, than you would three days from now. Yet it’s being argued that Ainge shouldn’t set any deadlines, and hold out his offer to Posey indefinitely. That’s bad business.

By the way, I’m a free market kind of guy, in case you couldn’t tell. I don’t get into issues of what’s fair. By my way of thinking, Posey should seek as much money as possible, and the Celtics should strive to have him playing for them for as little as possible.

By the way, isn’t Posey also a big boy? And what particular value did Posey actually have to last year’s Miami team?

As for Elton Brand, do you figure the other players will kick him out of the union?

Posey is a big boy too. I don’t care about his feelings because he’s a person. I’m not nice enough for that. I care about whether he signs or not. I don’t want Danny to start doing things that will turn him away from the club and the contract offer, especially unnecessary things like a deadline this early in free agency. Treat him well and make him feel wanted.

I love the Elton Brand story. What is it with Duke guys? First Boozer double crosses Clevland and now this. I guys those guys learn well from the master in college how to be snievling lying weisels.

I hate to see other good players sign waiting around for Possey. I know he did a good job last year, but it is not like the guy is an all-star. I agree with Brick. Give him 24 hours to sign or go pound sand.

Najera has nothing to offer the Celtics. No loss. He was poor in Denver.

Dumb move by New Jersey. How many big men do they have on their roster now? It must be 8 right?

Heck at least Vince will have another leader in the locker room. You don’t want Vince’s lazy ways leaking into all the youngsters they’ve got there now. At least there’s some bright side to that move.

Keeping the Duke connection alive …. Don’t forget how Danny Ferry treated the Clippers.

Who, I’m ducking out of this debate. Too much work to be done. Besides, I respect your opinion and don’t wish to irritate you further.

I’ll check back later to see if anyone ever takes up the challenge of explaining why it’s not in the Celtics’ interest to set a deadline for Posey (without resorting to emotional appeals).

Gosh, we signed Patrick O Bryant on a two year deal according to Marc Spears a post in the forum just said. Horrible news.

no kidding,

Looks like more folks agree with yourself and Brick anyway.

This is an incredible thread regardless of opinions. Last year we were talking about KG, a probable Hall of Famer and now so much is being discussed about a bench player who plays about 30 minutes a game with miniscule stats. This James Posey guy must be something special to generate all this interest. Dickerson on Mohegan Sun Sports made an interesting comment about James. He said Posey doesn’t like the spotlight and he loved playing here because of the people he was surrounded by. If he goes to another team alot will be expected of him, unrealistic expectations. I like to think Celtic fans are pretty knowledgeable and have realistic expectations of what Posey does. I need to go back and look at Roy Hobb’s explanation of salary cap/luxury cap stuff. I want to know if the MLE counts toward these. I’m not sure why we keep talking about using the MLE to pay Posey. Why can’t he just be paid with non MLE money. Somehow I think there’s other stuff going on so that the C’s could give Pose the dollars in some other way and use the MLE elsewhere. I think other teams have given it their best shot and that Pose is set to sign here with the wait being due to other stuff happening.

From Roy Hobbs’ exlplanation of salary cap: The MLE: The MLE can be used to sign players to contracts for a maximum of five years, with annual raises equivalent to 8% of the contracts first year value each year. This exception is available to teams above the salary cap, and can be used annually. For the 2008-09 season, the MLE can be used to give free agents contracts starting at $5.585 million. The MLE can be used in its entirety on one player, or can be split amongst several players.

My question is does this money count toward the luxury tax?