Welcome Back Tony

When Tony is healthy and on his game, he’s better than Posey. Let’s hope that’s the Tony we get.

It was interesting to see the credit Tony gave to Posey for helping him to develop as a player. In his words, “I learned a lot from [Posey]. Game preparation, how you sit down and scout a player during practice, how you defend a player during practice. I just learned a lot from him and hope I can carry on.”

It sounds like Posey helped Tony mature as a professional; so we may owe one more tip of the hat to Big Game James.

Wow, so much expectations on the shoulder of TA….I too wish him well and hope he does make that leap again the way he was torching opponents pre injury.

I’ve always been a big fan of Tony Allen. I hope he gets that strength back in his knee and has a breakout year.

I’m glad to see Ainge publicly praise Tony as he did, I think it’ll go a long way since Tony’s self confidence has been shaky at best over the years. I look for TA to have a very productive year !

I guess Scal will be our big SF, quick PF stopper now!

Roy Hobbs, Danny was relating his objective opinion, some based on stats and some on intangibles. I say Danny is candid, you call him a politician. It really doesnt’ matter. If we could have gotten James back within the Celtics financial and long term structure, fine. But we didn’t. In the WEEI interview Danny also said that based on based on stats, Pierce was the best perimeter defender, Ray Allen was second and Posey third. If team members were asked who was the best perimeter defender the answer was Tony Allen. He said Posey defended bigs better that TA and Posey was great at getting charges. Posey obviously is a better 3 point shooter than TA. TA is obviously quicker. I think we lost alot by not getting Posey back. The intangibles are non-replaceable, such as TA acknowledging what Pose taught him, etc. But we’re where we are and I think we have a pretty good team going forward. I think Danny, when asked, explains things candidly. I don’t see any agenda other than wanting to make this team into a perennial contender. He doesn’t put down players. He does try to instill confidence in them when needed.

i like the part at the end where ainge said he expects the whole coaching staff back. thibodeau was a key ingrediant last year and i’ll be happy to have him back !

…if Posey’s and the Celtics had come to terms(resign),would we be having this conversatiion?I don’t think so.Tony would be packing or already gone.I understand that DA has to build confidence in his players,but don’t think we all believe,he really wanted TA over Posey.

Note that the last line of the Globe story says that the entire coaching staff, including thibodeau, will be back. Good news!

“Ainge’s next order of business will be to settle the contract situations of Rivers and assistants Kevin Eastman, Armond Hill, Mike Longabardi, Clifford Ray, and Tom Thibodeau. Ainge said the entire coaching staff is expected to return.”

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/07/24/allen_will_be_ready_to_jump_in/

i agree with celticmainiac about tom t. he and cliff. ray are indispensable parts to this team and can’t be lost. tony will be ok and who knows about scal.

Tony will silence the doubters next season…. case closed

Danny is right about everything. Tony is a better defender in terms of quickness, athletism and being able to guard more small forwards and guards. However in terms of smart, team, mistake free defense posey is better.(for example never seen posey get lifted on a pump fake)

Also posey is 6’8 and allen is 6’5 at best

He will have to no doubt take on a big load posey was responsible for

jay_jay54 said:
  …if Posey’s and the Celtics had come to terms(resign),would we be having this conversatiion?I don’t think so.Tony would be packing or already gone.I understand that DA has to build confidence in his players,but don’t think we all believe,he really wanted TA over Posey.

Danny never said he wanted TA over Posey. He spent several weeks trying to get Posey back. During that time he could have lost TA to another team and was concerned about that. TA was the second choice.

Triboy16, totally agree with you. “However in terms of smart, team, mistake free defense posey is better.(for example never seen posey get lifted on a pump fake)”: This plus the other intangibles is what we are losing and they are big losses. We’ll also miss Posey’s ability to draw a charge. Others will need to step up.

Jeff said:
Frankly I’m surprised Ainge would even compare the two. The last thing Tony needs is to be burdened with the expectation that he is taking Posey’s place.

That is precisely the message Ainge should be sending to Tony Allen. I strongly believe that one reason certain players with potential never reach their full potential is due to what I call the bigotry of low expectations that is often placed on them – we don’t expect much from them, hence we tend not to get much from them.

A huge part of being the best you can be is to first believe you are capable, and when you’re being told by those you admire or those who sign your checks that they believe in you, and expect that much from you by comparing you favorably (even if somewhat exaggerated) with another person with a reputation of being a solid contributor, that tend to carry a lot of weight. Eventually you begin to believe you’re just as capable

I’ll be the first to admit that that doesn’t always work, but the evidence suggests this to be a proven motivational and confidence building methodology; it was true for Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, Kendrick Perkins, and to some extent even Tony Allen himself… he stepped up and gave us some of his best basketball when Paul Pierce went down two seasons ago, before Allen himself got hurt.

I am one of the people who believes that Tony Allen’s issue at this point is mainly psychological. Ainge’s expression of confidence in Allen as well as comparing Allen favorably with Posey might go a long way to build TA’s confidence and get him to rise to the occasion.

Oh yeah, and it worked for a certain NFL player drafted in the 6th round at #199 in the 2000 NFL Draft. He was destined to a backup quarterback role until his coach decided to set high expectations for him. Tom Brady has gone on to unleash his “Total Football” on America ever since.

Tony could easily match Posey’s numbers if given minutes – likely surpass them I think. The SF bit is not something to worry about. Ray Allen will play SF when Pierce is out – and Pierce will play SF when RA is out (obviously). TA will get ALL those minutes given up by those two guys – more then likely. Only Giddens is his competition..and he is a rookie.

TA could put up 10points/3 boards/2 assists…

“Tony is a better Defender than Posey”?? Danny, Danny, Danny…

Tony might have the athletic ability to be a better defender one day than Posey, but Posey doesn’t have the mental lapses tony has on the D end, i’ll just leave the lapses on offense alone….Tony falls for about 90% of pump fakes, and if he’s guarding a star u can make that 100%. I also can’t remember the last time Tony drew a charge. The one thing Tony does have a slight advantage in, is picking a steal off the man he is defending.

Tony is more talented than Posey except for 3 pt shooting. But Tony is inconsistent. He’ll look like Michael Jordan on one play, and like a D-leaguer on the next.

If I were Rivers, I would seriously consider starting TA and using Ray Allen as a “supersub,” in much the same way that Auerbach used Havlicek for the first few years he was in the league (and Frank Ramsay before that). As Ainge noted, Tony needs longer stints to be effective.

^

He’ll look like Michael Jordan on one play, and like a D-leaguer on the next.

I need a new keyboard, i had an accident…

Typical spin, Roy? I think your tone of coming across as knowing more than the man who brought the franchise #17 is what is more typical. We are all entitled to our own opinions of course, but you speak about the composition of the roster and who should be signed and should play as if you have as much authority, if not more, than those who are actually making the decisions.

And whether people like it or not, TA is going to replace Posey, if not in his exact skill set, for sure in his role off the bench and minutes played. He of course does not bring the exact same things, but for what else was available, the Celts braintrust, not based on a CelticsBlog poll, decided for numerous factors, many unknown to fans, that TA was the best option. Danny is only helping explain to fans some of his rationale, that is all.

When asked point blank on Comcast if TA would have been back had they been able to sign Posey, Danny said “no”. So he is admitting James was the first choice, no spin to suggest that TA is better or that the C’s wanted him more. More so Danny is pointing out the good things that the Celts think TA will bring that fans may not be taking into account in their thinking of him being a Posey replacement. In my opinion, it is almost a no-brainer that TA is a better perimeter defender than Posey. Posey can no longer keep the quickest 2’s and 3’s in front of him, that was obvious all last season. Doesn’t make TA a better player, and doesn’t mean there aren’t things Posey does better than TA, it is just what it is.

Tony is great and all, we know his limits and what he is capable of. I for one am happy we resigned him after all he’s been through in his celtics career. I will never forget that two handed put back dunk he did as a rookie :o

Enough of the feel good story though, and back to reality. There is nobody on the bench that can fill in for an injured Ray Allen or Paul Pierce(scoring wise). Danny says Tony is back to being healthy, however that doesn’t make him not injury prone, which based upon his past, he is. Giddens and Walker have 0 Nba experience, let alone playoff experience. They might have been nice draft picks for being #30 and #47….At least one of them will be in the D-League, or spending a year overseas(Walker).

In reality Scalabrine will be replacing Posey, since Pose played the 3, and Scala will now be backing up Pierce. You can say Tony is taking posey’s spot, but he doesn’t play the 3. Nothing has changed with TA, he’s still on the team like he was last year, just getting some more PT. Also, Darius Miles hasn’t played in 2 years, and this is a championship contending team, not the youth movement from the past few years.

This is not to burst the bubble of the topic, but more so the realistic look at what is really on our roster as of right now.

We need another Vet plain and simple. The only vets we have on our bench are Scalabrine and House. If Ricky D were to accept the remainder of our MLE on a short term contract, that might be what we need. The “headcase” spiel is overrated, thats just an glorified excuse for people who didn’t watch the C’s when he was here(yea i said it). If Ricky can accept the 6th man role, like he did as a Celtic, then it is low risk, high reward. We NEED cheap, talented, insurance for injuries throughout the year. Call me crazy, but think about how many people were open to Starbury putting on a Celtics jersey….

As I said before, you can always manipulate statistics to prove your point, even if its not correct. lol

Roy,

There’s no need to accuse Danny of ‘fuzzy math.’ His math is just fine; it was the quote from the Globe that was wrong. What Danny really said was this: when Tony was on the court with[/i] the starters, his /- was 31 [i]per 48 minutes.[/i] (taken from an interview which aired last night on Comcast Sports Tonight and which is unfortunately not available online as of now).

These statistics weren’t used as justification either. They were used to correct the public’s misconception about Tony’s basketball ability. Danny’s ultimate justification is that he [i]feels, along with Doc, that Tony is due to break out next year. After losing Posey, Tony was the next best thing. That’s not spin, it’s Danny’s gut speaking.

Statistically speaking, we were a better team with Tony on the court with the starters than we were with Posey on the court with the starters; and that was last year, with Tony still struggling to get healthy and when he wasn’t getting consistent minutes. Just imagine what might happen with good health and consistent minutes. Resigning Tony was a no-brainer.

I’m very happy to have Tony back. He’s got a very interesting skill set and can add a lot to the team.

Tony is great and all, we know his limits and what he is capable of.

I respectfully disagree; no we don’t quite know his limits and what he’s capable of. The guy’s still developing…

I think TA can guard most SF’s in this league b/c of his quickness and footwork. His only weakness is getting shot over from the perimeter.

In most cases (like Lebron for example) this is exactly how you want to defend them. Make them hit contested perimeter jumpers and keep them out of the lane. Tony can do that on a consistent basis.

For a SF who is even bigger and wants to post up, we have Scal to hack away at them.

I respectfully disagree; no we don’t quite know his limits and what he’s capable of. The guy’s still developing…

Take it with a grain of salt, i think you know what i meant in terms of what type of player he is. What he can and can’t do, and what he could improve on.

I disagree. He’s had a number of games where he has played consistently well, and we all remember that 5 game stretch last year (just before the injury) where he was playing at close to an all star level.

TA is a guy who needs to get into rhythm. He does not do well in 2-3 minute stretches. Rivers needs to let him play through a mistake or two.

For a SF who is even bigger and wants to post up, we have Scal to hack away at them.

Can’t wait to see what happens at the SF position if we play Cleveland again in the Playoffs. Even SF’s like R. Lewis, or Melo…Scals as the prime backup to Pierce is plain scary.

If you guys remember when pierce was injured the year before and jefferson and tony were probably the more consistant guys we had on our team. Tony also believe or not nailed 3’s consistantly. He can shoot it, its just tough when you don’t get much time on the court and in addition are told to not do much on offense

I like tony and sometimes i feel we think he has mental lapses more frequently than he has because 1. the dumb after whistle dunk that got him injured and 2. The pump fake chaunce pulled on him and we lost by two free throws. But other than those mistakes its not easy to remember when he actually screwed up. Paul Pierce to me has screwed up alot more if i think about it and has made enough boneheaded plays(but because he does the other things well we forgive him)

Tony will do well this year

truthhurts34 said: Enough of the feel good story though, and back to reality. There is nobody on the bench that can fill in for an injured Ray Allen or Paul Pierce(scoring wise).

If any of the starters are injured for a long period of time we’re done. I think this is true of any team in the league. Another vet won’t help and all this TA/Posey stuff won’t help.

That may be what he said on Comcast. However, according to 82games.com, the Rondo-Tony-Paul-KG-Perk lineup was plus-74 on the season. That certainly isn’t plus-31 per 48 minutes (and, honestly, I’m not sure any lineup, ever, has been plus-31 per 48 minutes).

Based on that data, I think the plus-31 (overall) as a starter is the most plausible scenario. It’s not unrealistic to think that Tony was plus-31 as a starter, and plus-43 playing alongside the other starters off of the bench.

Well, if you want to use 82games.com #s, don’t forget to mention that the Rondo/TA/Paul/KG/Perk lineup was our 2nd best lineup overall, greater by 59 points than the one with Posey (substituted for Perk).

For a guy accusing others of using fuzzy math, your math is getting a little fuzzy too. Assuming those #s at 82games.com are accurate, the Rondo/TA/Paul/KG/Perk lineup was on the court for 159 minutes this past season and outscored their opponents by 74 points during that time. Per 48 minutes, that breaks down to a plus 22.3. (159 minutes divided by 48 is 3.3125. 74 divided by 3.3125 is 22.3). So, even if we’re using 82games.com #s, when TA played with the starters he was a plus 22. Not quite 31 as Danny claimed (and personally I’d trust his #s over 82games.com), but still much better than the 2.8 that you tried to claim earlier in this thread.

I can’t wait to see the second line back court of Tony Allen and Eddie House try to advance the ball over half court against pressure. It gives me goosebumps.
Nor can I wait to see a starting lineup with Rondo and TA in the backcourt together spreading the floor. Somehow I think Ray Allen will remain in the starting lineup. As it stands Scalabrine is Posey’s replacement. Can’t wait to see Scal taking all those big three’s Posey made for us this year.

Ainge is going on vacation? He’s been on vacation for almost the whole month now.

As you’ll recall, this team held its own when KG was out last year, I think they can make do with PP for a bit or RA for longer.

A healthy TA is a borderline starter. He brings fantastic D to offset some of the loss in offense, and Perk, RR, LP and BBD should all be improved on offense this year. I think we’ll see Rajon landing 3’s with some regularity, so it wouldn’t hurt as much to lose Ray in spreading the floor.

Of course, back to the “spin” angle, I’m not sure what utility the specific stat of “plus-minus with the starters” is, since Tony was resigned to be… a bench player. I’m not sure why Danny would look at a sample of 150 minutes out of 1400-plus minutes played, unless he was trying to manipulate the numbers to look as good as possible. Again, “spin”.

The relevance of such a stat is thus: if Tony’s our sixth man, it’s conceivable that he’ll play a good portion of those minutes with the starters and, by looking at the #s, he had the best /- of any of our bench players when playing with the starters. So, to me at least, it seems like a good stat to quote to support his signing, as it is a statistic measure of his likely role next season. It says that when you put him on the floor with the other starters, he’s going to produce. It also points towards a rationale for starting him as well, a move that Danny and Doc might just have in mind.

That’s not spin, that’s a reasonable conclusion based on the #s. And when you factor in that he was recovering from major knee surgery last season and playing irregular minutes behind James Posey, his signing becomes even more reasonable. There is no spin anywhere; this was a solid signing from any angle.

TA can play with the starters when he comes in for Pierce and
stays on the floor when Pierce comes back in for Ray Ray.
Playing with KG will make him better and running with Rondo will keep his shooting percentage okay. Scal can guard Bosh for
3 minutes when Bosh is tired.

I’m glad Danny validated what I’ve been saying about TA. Nobody is saying that DA wanted him over Posey; I think he made it clear that he was a secondary option. I disagree with TA being a better overall defender than Posey, though. TA has more lateral quickness and a lot more athleticism, though Posey is the more disciplined defender. Hopefully, TA can mature that part of his game this year. Offensively, TA can actually create his own shot – something JP couldn’t do.

I’m really tired of reading on ESPN’s comments and a lot on here about TA going for pump fakes. Everybody jumps on that, almost solely, on the play that Chauncey got him on to win the game for Detroit. Additionally, there are more 2-guards in this league (Wade, Kobe, McGrady, Iguodala, etc) to worry about than SFs and that’s not even considering PGs, which TA is also better equipped to defend. Everybody wants to bring up “Who’s gonna guard Lebron”. Well, nobody is going to single-handily guard him as seen in Game 7 of the Cle series. It will take a team effort and that is not going to change. We need defensive depth at guard; PP is obviously a more solid defender than Sugar Ray. Just think back to what a healthy TA could have contributed during the Hawks series when JJ was having his way with Ray. Look, I’m not saying Posey won’t be missed…he will. But the constant Tony Allen knocking just doesn’t add up, especially from people who have/should have watched a lot of C’s games.

When KG was injured last year the Team was 9 and 7 without him and with Scals starting in his place. When KG came back, I believe they lost 3 straight, the only time that happened last year. We’re in great shape.

Green Mountain said: Ainge is going on vacation? He’s been on vacation for almost the whole month now.

I don’t think you’ve been paying attention.

The man’s got a bum knee and a 10-cent head. Maybe he finally has a breakout year. Maybe he doesn’t. Just seems to me playing the “If only …” game is a pre-KG mentality. Before KG, we kept hoping that all the young players would come together and we’d grow up and the clouds would part and the angels would sing and we’d jell as a team. (That was my believe, at least.) But it never happened. So we pick up vets, proven vets.
Tony Allen ain’t a proven vet. Period.
Not the best way to start defending the title. Ah, but that title… (sighs)
;)

    Of course, back to the “spin” angle, I’m not sure what utility the specific stat of “plus-minus with the starters” is, since Tony was resigned to be… a bench player. I’m not sure why Danny would look at a sample of 150 minutes out of 1400-plus minutes played, unless he was trying to manipulate the numbers to look as good as possible. Again, “spin”.

    The relevance of such a stat is thus: if Tony’s our sixth man, it’s conceivable that he’ll play a good portion of those minutes with the starters and, by looking at the #s, he had the best /- of any of our bench players when playing with the starters. So, to me at least, it seems like a good stat to quote to support his signing, as it is a statistic measure of his likely role next season. It says that when you put him on the floor with the other starters, he’s going to produce. It also points towards a rationale for starting him as well, a move that Danny and Doc might just have in mind.

    That’s not spin, that’s a reasonable conclusion based on the #s. And when you factor in that he was recovering from major knee surgery last season and playing irregular minutes behind James Posey, his signing becomes even more reasonable. There is no spin anywhere; this was a solid signing from any angle.

Which of our bench players played a similar role last season, where the bulk of their minutes came with the starters?

That’s not the way Doc rotates his lineups historically, and I doubt very much that he changes that approach this season.

Roy, with your creative use of statistics and the way you keep re-framing the argument when your logic fails, I’d bet you make your living in the legal profession ;D

Good point on Doc though. There was rarely just one bench player playing with the 4 other starters last season (again, assuming 82games.com is accurate in this regard).

FYI, for comparison’s sake, Posey got 143 minutes with the starters (subbing for Perk) last season, and posted a plus 5 per 48 minutes. Eddie got 99 minutes with the starters last season (subbing for Rondo), and posted a plus 7.75 per 48 minutes (both stats from 82games.com). Tony was plus 22. That’s a huge difference.

Tony can guard the SF, SG position. All you ask is that he practice his dribbling in the off season. As long as he doesn’t commit silly turnovers or falls asleep on the defensive we should be in pretty good shape. I don’t like Scal on the court, it is 4 on 5 on the offense when he plays.

I see a decent year for Tony and I’m glad we resigned him for as cheap as we did. I am more thrilled with his signing than House’s although I like them both.

One more thing Tony needs to do is to get to the gym early and shoot jumpers with Ray. A little more of an outside shooting threat and that is just bonus for us.

I would prefer JR or Walker as the sub over Scal. I can live with the rookie mistakes especially early on; but the talent and offensive threat of both these kids are much better than what Scal can bring.

Wow, the venom on this one is almost Antoine-esque…

…Look, Tony Allen comes with some risk, but there is ample evidence that he comes with some promise too…

I do think Roy Hobbs is being a little over-the-top with his definitive negativity and its clear from his writing that he had other ideas…

Personally, I like the roster as constituted, it provides a chance for development from younger players and the team still has the ability to add a dime-a-dozen veteran if and when needed…

Have a little faith in the man that just delivered the goods…

Sorry I arrived a little late to the fray, Roy, to side with you.

But it’s pointless, anyway. If being on Celtic boards for years has taught me anything, it’s that hyperbolizing about marginal or failed players is the rule, rather than the exception.

Your points about Allen are, as always, exactly on point. It’s always interesting how people just sweep aside one pesky little detail with him: He’s a turnover machine who can’t think the game.

Just like they did with Gerald Green.

 ;D

Danny thinks he’s smarter than everybody else….who cares??? wrong on Scal but right on Rondo…right on #17!!!!…he lost out on POsey and now is handing out 1 & 2 yr deals…next year he’ll have TONS of ending contracts to trade ….or wait till 2010 and a have neat thing called caproom…however he got us there,we are sitting pretty