Musings On the BGJ-Maggette Debate

by Steve Weinman on Jul 3, 2008 12:00 AM EDT in NBA Comment 22 comments

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Only this much is even close to certain so far as the Celtics' incumbent sixth man and the man they may be pursuing from the West Coast are concerned: If there were some feasible way to have both James Posey and Corey Maggette in green next season, it would be an absolute dream come true for the Celts and the faithful.

(Indeed, I'm late to the party with this one, but with several great threads running in the forums, it seemed time for some extended thoughts about the Celts' sixth man situation.)

Alas, without getting buried in the logistics, suffice it to say that the possibility of the Celtics ending up with both of these players on the roster come opening day could most kindly be described as 'minimal.' Without some sacrificing made by either of the two players toward taking contracts below market value, it's extremely hard to see it working financially. That sentence comes with this disclaimer that neither player deserves to take any heat in the event that he decides against 'sacrificing.' Both have performed quite admirably in their respective environments and have earned paydays for themselves.

But that means that the reality of the situation is that the Celtics will most likely end up with either James Posey or Corey Maggette at best.

In that case, chalk me up for a seat on the Big Game James bandwagon.

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For what it's worth, I'm a Maggette fan, and it is pleasantly surprising to see that the Celts are interested in him. He has become a dynamic scorer in this league, and over the course of his career he has done that both as a starter and off the bench. He fearlessly slashes to the rim and can score in bunches with his head-down-and-attack-the-rim force. This slashing has made Maggette a fixture at the foul line, and he tied for third in all of basketball last season with 9.7 free throw attempts per game. Thanks to the fact that he shoots over 80 percent from the line and 45 from the field, Maggette has posted an admirable 57.6 true shooting percentage for his career, including a career high 59.5 mark last season.

Maggette has a well-built 6-foot-6, 218-pound frame, and he has grabbed nearly six rebounds per game at the small forward spot over the past few seasons. He has done a commendable job slaving away in Los Angeles, and while he can certainly perform as a starter, his energy and explosive scoring makes him wonderfully valuable off the bench. He truly embodies the concept of instant offense.

Undoubtedly, what Maggette brings would certainly be quite helpful to a Celts team that was prone to occasonal droughts on the offensive end at times throughout this past year. He can create his own shot and force defenses to adjust to him, and he would be a great injury security policy as someone who could step in and start if either Ray Allen or Paul Pierce has to miss any time.

Maggette is also just 28 years old, and he may be the better value around the league right now as someone who could continue to be a big-time scorer as a starter in many places around the league.

But for this Celtics team, he simply doesn't have the value of the big gamer who is three years his senior.

Most likely above all else, this Celtics team made Green 17 a reality by playing the league's best defense all season. James Posey was a huge part of that. Pose has established himself as one of the league's best perimeter defenders. At 6-foot-8 but just 215 pounds, he has both the length and deceptive quickness to guard marquee players at the two and the three and occasionally even the four for stretches (though he isn't as effective there). Posey plays a physical brand of stifling defense that is rarely found around the league these days, and he did an excellent job both as an individual stopper andin rotations in the Celtics' help-oriented schemes.

In contrast, Maggette's defensive game is at best considered below par. He has been known to lose focus on that end of the floor. Now it's certainly fathomable that coming to play for a championship team and playing under Doc Rivers and Tom Thibodeau and alongside Kevin Garnett (among others) could change Maggette's way and get him to really work at his defensive game as certain other Celtics did this season. But there is little possibility that he'll become a defender of Posey's significance.

Posey is also just as good a rebounder as Maggette in terms of per-minute production; both average close to 6.5 boards per 40 minutes. Meanwhile, though Maggette had a very good season from the outside (38.4 percent this season to Posey's 38 percent), Posey is the much better shooter from deep (35.1 to 32.9 percent) for their careers, and he has been consistently up close to 40 percent over the last few seasons while Maggette's shooting this year appeared to be far more of an aberration given that he had three-point percentages of 20.0, 33.8, 30.4, 32.9 over the four seasons prior.

But when one gets right down to it, the statistics really are the least of it with Big Game James. It's the defense and the all-around tenacity that this guy plays the game with. It's that mean streak he gives this team on both ends of the floor. It's the way he takes "playing hard" to such another level that I actually once referred to him as a player who would "kill his mother for a loose ball" -- and that was meant in the most complimentary manner possible. This is a guy who knows what it takes to win, who doesn't seem to care how many shots he gets or how much glamour comes his way. What matters to him is killing himself on the floor every night to win. He'll be the first in line to protect a teammate, and he'll make you absolutely detest him if you're on the other side.

It's how cool and collected he is in the biggest moments. Whether it's taking one of his patented leaning-back-off-one-foot corner treys, striding to the line for two free throws to seal a game or pulling a loose ball out of a scrum, Big Game James always has ice in his veins. Just completely unflappable.

Corey Maggette simply hasn't shown that yet. That he has spent his entire career in Clipper prison isn't entirely his fault, but the fact remains that Posey has demonstrated himself to be the type of player who gets exactly what it takes to be part of a winner. Maggette doesn't fight for loose balls the way Posey does, doesn't get inside the clothes of other players the way Posey does and hasn't shown himself to be the big-moment stud that Posey is. Again, in fairness to Maggette, he hasn't been in that many big spots. But in a league where such performers are so valuable, it seems wiser to take the proven one rather than the unknown commodity.

Once more, this isn't meant as Maggette-bashing by any means. As the incomparable Roy Hobbs points out, bringing in a player like Maggette would not only provide immediate offensive help but would also demonstrate an eye toward having a big-time scorer down the road in the future as the star trio ages onward. Make no mistake about it: If Posey isn't retained, I would welcome Maggette into the green fold with open arms, and I would eagerly await seeing the way in which he would change the complexion of the bench, which would still be quite effective but likely in a different way. Meanwhile, the dream of having both of these guys coming off the pine remains monstrously enticing.

But if it's got to be one or the other, count me in for being willing to splurge on the older guy who seems more conducive to helping this team gain that eighteenth banner what could be the immediate future. Big Game James Posey it is.

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The problem is how much our stars get paid. Elton Brand is a FA so he can take less so that he can play with Baron Davis. You know Pierce and KG and Allen want to repeat, so it sure would be nice if Allen could give up 3 or 4 million a yr, KG 2 million, and Pierce a million. They’d all still be getting paid huge amounts. This is not allowed and I’m aware of that. Just mentioning how hard it is to keep the team together when paying 3 guys so much (especially Allen).

by johnnyrondo on Jul 3, 2008 12:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The only time Corey Maggette got to the playoffs, he produced. In playing just 24 minutes per game, he scored 15 points a game on 47% shooting and grabbed 7 rebounds a game. Corey Maggette is a much better player than Posey. We can have a just chug it all towards Posey’s superior defense (that is declining as he gets slower).

Corey Maggette is easily the choice to make if the offer is for full MLE. Also, in case of an injury to Ray or Pierce, Corey Maggette is more readily to pick up the slack. Posey’s defense doesn’t make up for Maggette’s superiority offensively.

by BudweiserCeltic on Jul 3, 2008 12:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

***"We can’t just chug it all towards Posey’s superior defense (that is declining as he gets slower).

by BudweiserCeltic on Jul 3, 2008 12:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I have to totally disagree with the statement that is made in the article that states…“But that means that the reality of the situation is that the Celtics will most likely end up with either James Posey or Corey Maggette at best.”

Seriously!? Why? Is it possible that we end up with one or the other…sure, but most likely, eh, I don’t know about that.

I think Maggette is a smokescreen. The celtics wouldn’t mind having him, but know that it probably wouldn’t work out. Maggette is too offensive minded. He wants to at the very very least be in the starting lineup. Coming off the bench would be an insult to Maggette. Sure it makes sense for the fan, but for the player, no way. It’s just one of those things like the Lakers back a few years ago when they put Karl Malone, Payton, Kobe and Shaq together. You think all those all-stars together, they have to win a championship, but you need the right people with the right mental make up to do the things that Posey does.

Speaking of Posey. Sure we would like to have him back and sure he probably would like to be back, but you can’t blame a guy who already has two rings to answer the call from the highest bidder. There are a number of teams that are going to throw the sink at Posey. The celtics, i would think, aren’t one of those teams. Yeah, they will give him a fair deal, maybe even a more than fair deal, but not the sink. If Posey decides to take the offer from the highest bidder, you can’t blame him and it is quite possible.

So, no, it is not necessarily most likely that the celtics will end up with one or the other. Not even close.

by Vegas Green on Jul 3, 2008 1:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

“I think Maggette is a smokescreen. The celtics wouldn’t mind having him, but know that it probably wouldn’t work out. Maggette is too offensive minded. He wants to at the very very least be in the starting lineup. Coming off the bench would be an insult to Maggette. Sure it makes sense for the fan, but for the player, no way. It’s just one of those things like the Lakers back a few years ago when they put Karl Malone, Payton, Kobe and Shaq together. You think all those all-stars together, they have to win a championship, but you need the right people with the right mental make up to do the things that Posey does.”

Err, you know that just two years ago, when they made it to the playoffs, he was coming off the bench behind a guy called Quinton Ross… who? Yeah, that guy. You think he’d have a problem coming to the Celtics and coming off the bench behind Ray Allen and Paul Pierce? I think not. Sure he wants starters minutes, but I doubt he’d pout over not playing over these guys. Of course, he should choose a team that offers him to be a starter, but in the case that he chooses the Celtics, coming off the bench is a non-issue.

by BudweiserCeltic on Jul 3, 2008 1:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

And that was after his career high season… this wouldn’t be more of a slap in the face than that…

by BudweiserCeltic on Jul 3, 2008 1:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Bud,

You’re making my point for me. When Maggette was coming off the bench for LA he had a constant feud going on with his coach, Dunleavy, because he wasn’t starting. What you say in that he was coming off the bench after his career high season is a bit misleading since he had a foot injury for most the year and wasn’t in shape enough to put up starer minutes

by Vegas Green on Jul 3, 2008 1:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I’m hoping we end up with one of the two….it would suck to get neither…But,if I had to pick-I’d take Posey,because Maggette is ALWAYS hurt.

by MaxwellSmart on Jul 3, 2008 1:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

"Bud,

I know that fully well, still they did quite good during the playoffs. And who wouldn’t want to start over Quinton Ross? Wouldn’t you think that he would know what’s the deal in Boston and what his role will be when he signs? By the way, he didn’t start much the next season after either… behind once again Quiton Ross when Maggette is the better player. Dunleavy did such a poor job managing that team that it’s laughable. Maggette had every right to complain in that particular team to be a starter.

This is a non-issue. He might complain about minutes, but about coming off the bench in this Celtics team? Highly improbable. And the minutes will be there for him, surely.

by BudweiserCeltic on Jul 3, 2008 1:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think the whole C’s bench thing has gone full circle. Posey is a guy who could only command a modest salary before he got to Boston – now suddenly we prefer him to Corey Maggette? Hell no. Posey was very clutch for us – but let’s be real Corey is the better player.

by Sweet17 on Jul 3, 2008 3:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

So much stuff is floating out there that all needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Marc Spears said on Comcast Sports (Boston) that this waiting period between declaration of free-agency and the ability to sign a player is ridiculous. With that said our main goal this free agent period is to sign James Posey. I don’t care about age or decline of skill with increase in age. The Celtics are playing for TODAY. We’re in a position to win one or two more championships. To do that we need James Posey, not Cory Magette. The Celtics must simply find a way to give Pose a fair or more than fair contract. He’s earned it and he deserves it. I can’t imagine that Pose would want to play for a team other than the Celtics. I don’t think he’s asking for an unreasonable amount of money. If it’s the length of contract we need to make him happy. There has to be a way to do this. If the waiting period wasn’t necessary it probably would be all done by now. Maybe it is for all we know.

by TrueGreen on Jul 3, 2008 3:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I bet if the positions where switched between Posey and Maggette, Maggette winning the championship with us last season, people would be arguing on how we need Maggette in our team to win and on how this whole Posey over Maggette is ridiculous.

Reminds me of the Al versus KG thing to tell you the truth. Maggette is the better player, he can not only be just as instrumental for the Celtics, but he should be even more.

I can understand people who want to overpay Posey because they love him and want him here over pretty much anyone else, but don’t come here to try and justify how we need him to win over a player that is borderline all-star or should be an all-star (if he played in the East I’m sure he would’ve made it a couple of times).

by BudweiserCeltic on Jul 3, 2008 4:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wait there is a debate on this? Didn’t we just win a championship? And who was on the team again?

I like that Danny has a Plan B, but the goal is Posey.

by Green17 on Jul 3, 2008 5:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Let’s be honest about what Posey does and doesn’t bring. In 38 of the 74 games he played this year, he scored 7 points or less. In 14 games, he had 2 points or less, and he got consistent minutes in the vast majority of those games.

There were many games where Posey contributed offensively, but just as many (and probably more) where he wasn’t an offensive factor at all. He struggles to create his own shot, as does most of our bench. What Maggette does is immediately take the reigns of the second unit and becomes their go-to scorer. He can shoot from outside, take the mid-range shot, or penetrate and get to the line. In terms of skills, this guy is closer to a poor man’s Pierce than he is to Posey.

Also, I think Posey’s defense is a little bit overrated. More accurately, I think his defense as a power forward is overrated. He got outscored and outrebounded at that position, he allowed opposing power forwards to shoot an eFG% of .510, and opponents had a PER in excess of 18.5 against Posey as a power forward. Those aren’t good numbers. (Garnett, by contrast, who truly is a great defender, held opponents to an eFG% of .421 and a PER of 13.9).

So, at his core, Posey is a good defensive small forward with a nice offensive shot who makes a significant offensive impact in one-third of our games. He certainly brings additional intangibles along with that: he’s tough, he’s a leader, he’s clutch. However, are those intangibles enough to elevate an inconsistent offensive player and a good defensive small forward above Corey Maggette?

If we’re offering the same contract, I think you need to go with the better and younger player. Ubuntu certainly is a consideration here, but I wouldn’t be so hell-bent on bringing back the same team that I gave Posey a bad contract.

by Roy_Hobbs on Jul 3, 2008 6:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The concern here, Roy, is that I do not agree – at all – that Corey is a good defensive player. His recent body of work in LA has been marked – my observations – by indifference, and as a coach defensive indifference is my biggest concern in a player. If I don’t see effort, I don’t play the player.

It may well be that the environment would transform him, because his skillset would suggest that he could defend if he cared.

But I REALLY disagree with characterizing him as a good defensive player based on his recent body of work. And I caution against assuming that scoring will win us another title. Defense wins championships, at every level,and it’s a little disappointing at the lack of acknowledgement of that in this thread.

by CoachBo on Jul 3, 2008 6:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Vegas Green,

I have to totally disagree with the statement that is made in the article that states…“But that means that the reality of the situation is that the Celtics will most likely end up with either James Posey or Corey Maggette at best.”

Please note the “at best” at the end of that sentence. My point was that the real ideal best-case scenario is obviously having two of them, the likelihood is that it’s really probably only getting one if everything works out. Not that we were most likely to assuredly have one of them.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Jul 3, 2008 7:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The concern here, Roy, is that I do not agree – at all – that Corey is a good defensive player.

I don’t think Maggette is a defensive player, and if my comment implied that, I must have been unclear. Posey is certainly better on that end (as a SF), at least up until this point in their careers.

However, neither Paul Pierce nor Ray Allen was seen as a good defensive player prior to last season, either. Both were very prone to showing little effort on that end. Both of them, though, had outstanding years defensively. I would hope Maggette could make a similar transition, although I am not relying on it.

No, I like Maggette because he is a greatly superior offensive player, because he is younger, and because he brings better value. Again, if Posey will take a lesser contract, then that has to be factored in. For the same money, though, give me Maggette.

by Roy_Hobbs on Jul 3, 2008 7:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Um, Posey made Odom look foolish. He’ll make Magette look foolish if he has to defend him. Can’t put a price on this kind of guy on a championship team with lots of stars. Again, the Spurs (and Lakers) had Robert Horry. Remember Michael Cooper? He defended Bird brilliantly and then would throw up a dagger three. Got to keep Posey.

by The Real Large James on Jul 3, 2008 7:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree with Roy. We are talking like if we don’t have Posey we have no chance of winning again next year! What happens if in game 22, James goes down with a knee injury and is out for the rest of the season? Are we cooked then and might as well mail in the season? Heck no!! The core of this team is KG, Pierce, Allen, Rondo & Perk. Every year is different and the best GM’s stay flexible as they may have to find new ways to put together a winning mix. Last year it was with killer D. I’m sure our defense will still be good this coming season but Danny may feel that he needs the big time scoring for the second unit that Maggette would provide. That may be the formula that would work in a champioship way for us this year. I think the formula can be different year to year and still work. I don’t blame Posey for looking out for himself. But they’re other options that could work for us to help us now besides James, we just have to see it happen for us to believe. I remember a lot of conversation on this and other boards after the KG trade that we would only be a semi-final level team. But it worked out for us last year so I’m reserving any difinitive opinions until I see the product on the floor next year and how it meshes with or without Posey.

by celty86 on Jul 3, 2008 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Roy Hobbs said:
Let’s be honest about what Posey does and doesn’t bring. In 38 of the 74 games he played this year, he scored 7 points or less. In 14 games, he had 2 points or less, and he got consistent minutes in the vast majority of those games. [/quote]
You can’t look at Posey in terms of stats. He means so much more to a team. It’s his presence that quantifies him. Just as the presence of KG quantifies him. KG’s numbers went down this year, he had some bad games. Does that mean we win a championship without him? Who do you want in Game 6 or 7 of the NBA finals, James Posey or C. Maggette? I don’t see how you can not say Posey.
[quote]celty86: …find new ways to put together a winning mix. Last year it was with killer D. I’m sure our defense will still be good this coming season but Danny may feel that he needs the big time scoring for the second unit that Maggette would provide. That may be the formula that would work in a champioship way for us this year

When they had the press conference last July, after the KG deal was done, after some questions Doc stated: (to the effect) “you
guys don’t get it, we just got so much better defensively.” Then they went and got Tom Thibodeau, a defensive genius. Almost every postgame comment from PP and KG was about defense. We survived and won because of our defense, not our offense which scored plenty without a 2nd team scorer (although this would be nice). You win championships with a guy like Posey, not Magettee. We can get a scorer for the 2nd unit. There is no one in the league like James Posey.

by TrueGreen on Jul 3, 2008 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

As you might imagine, TrueGreen, I’m absolutely with ya on this one. Well said.

I don’t purport to suggest that we necessarily don’t win with Maggette rather than Posey (again, he’d be a great second choice for the sixth man spot, and he could move the quality of the bench laterally rather than vertically), but I’m with CoachBo in that I believe that championships start with defense more often than not — and that’s certainly where this one was rooted. Thus, Pose is my guy.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Jul 3, 2008 5:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed. I don’t want to do five years for Posey, and I think it’s absurd if that’s the asking price, but I am more than comfortable with our offensive ability. I’ll take a strong defender in the sixth man role over an offensive guy any day with this club as it’s constituted.

by CoachBo on Jul 3, 2008 6:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs