CTC: Leon Powe or Big Baby?
by Jeff Clark on Sep 23, 2008 5:00 AM EDT
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintCountdown To Camp: 6 Days To Media Day
All this week I'll be counting down the days till camp with questions that need to be answered sometime during camp. (Also See: 9 Days | 8 Days | 7 Days)
The backup power forward position battle should be the most fun to watch this preseason. Will it be the hard working, inspiring, tough guy Leon Powe? Or will it be the baby faced, beefy-but-quick, lovable Glen Davis?
We've seen Big Baby blow up on the Pistons and hold his own against Tim Duncan. We've seen Leon Powe take over a game against the Lakers in the Finals. But neither one consistently outperformed the other enough to win the job last year.
Both of them make up for a lack of height by boxing out and using their size and strength to fight for rebounds. Both provide a spark of energy off the bench that can fire up the team and the fans, not to mention put the opponents on their heels. Both were counted on to step up in big situations last year. Sometimes they came up big, and sometimes they merely held down the fort while other players stepped up. But they seldom made truly costly mistakes because both knew what their role was within the concept of Ubuntu (team).
Still, they had their weaknesses. Doc was reportedly uncomfortable with Powe's defensive rotations even well into the playoffs. His offensive game boils down to putbacks off of rebounds and scrappy hustle plays. Meanwhile Big Baby is quite comfortable with the ball in his hands and can create his own shot, even in traffic. On the other hand, Davis was very hit or miss last year while Leon was at least capable of stringing together 4 or 5 very good games.
As a result, Doc effectively platooned them for most of the year. If Davis was clicking early on, he would just ride that wave as far as it would take us. Otherwise, Powe would get the call. Sometimes it was the other way around. At times it was based on matchups. Some shot blockers were able to frustrate Powe while Davis was able to create space to get his shot off. Sometimes Davis looked very much like a rookie and Powe simply had another year of experience under his belt.
There's still a chance that they could end up in a similar platoon this year. However, I tend to believe that both players will take a step forward in their progression. Under other circumstances, either one could be counted on to take over the backup power forward spot. Now we get to see two talented guys scrap and claw their way for a chance to win the job. Let's just hope that they don't bang each other up too much before the preseason games start (where they can take it out on opponents).
So who do you think will win the job? Or do you think they'll continue to be platooned? If Ainge were to trade one of them, who would you prefer to go? Who do you think has the most trade value?
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Up early today huh Jeff? :) I think Powe is the better player and has the better trade value right now, but neither have very much value to other teams yet. For that reason I’d keep both. I guess one could say that BBD has more possible upside, but he could also be out of the league in a couple yrs. I think Powe will be a solid bench player for the next 7 years. His long arms make up for some of his lack of height. No one rebounds the ball or dunks with the top of their head remember. ;D
Jeff,
Q: So who do you think will win the job?
A: Leon Powe has history and the edge in talent level on his side.
Q: Or do you think they’ll continue to be platooned?
A: Why not always start the Season with a platoon just for the sake of healthy competition, it’s not as if there is a big enough gap in ability not to give “The Large Infant” another shot at it.
Q: If Ainge were to trade one of them, who would you prefer to go?
A: I only would be willing to give up Davis if the appropriate value came in return but if I we’re to ship off one of them it would indeed be Glen Davis over the better player, Leon Powe.
Q: Who do you think has the most trade value?
A: Believe it or not I think “Big Baby D” has a little more value out there on the trading block than Leon although “The Show” is the superior talent.
by New England Sports Blog on Sep 23, 2008 5:28 AM EDT reply actions
Stop the presses, I´m back. My first post on Celticsblog after two months without internet access, and it starts with the voice of reason:
BRING BACK POSEY!!!
…uhm, I mean: I hate it when fans have to chose between two players on their team. As long as they wear the green, they`re both part of the best team in the world.
I want to keep them both, it´s always possible that one of them gets injured. Imo, with Powe and Bibbyddy, Doc should play whoever is hot, like he did last season.
Trade Scal.
Q: If Ainge were to trade one of them, who would you prefer to go?
A: I only would be willing to give up Davis if the appropriate value came in return but if I we’re to ship off one of them it would indeed be Glen Davis over the better player, Leon Powe.
Yep, gotta agree with that. Powe was much better and much more consistent offensively, he’s a hard worker, and statistically (Opponent’s PER, etc.) he was better defensively as a power forward.
I don’t want to see either one traded, either, but if one has to go, it’s the Round Mound of Ups and Downs.
Powe Powe Powe Powe Powe Powe…. no question!
by FLCeltsFan @ CelticsBlog on Sep 23, 2008 6:50 AM EDT reply actions
It may come down to dollars and cents – If Powe will sign a two year extension for $2-$3 million per, we will keep him. If not, we will keep Davis on his rookie contract for the extra season.
by Michael Anthony on Sep 23, 2008 6:58 AM EDT reply actions
I am worried about Davis and his weight. He seemed to gain quite a few pounds during the course of the year. He looked slimmer before the start at the season than after it.
I think he will have weight problems throughout his career especially if he signs a long contract. That is why I prefer Powe, who is a perfect role player for any team.
Yep, gotta agree with that. Powe was much better and much more consistent offensively, he’s a hard worker, and statistically (Opponent’s PER, etc.) he was better defensively as a power forward.
I don’t want to see either one traded, either, but if one has to go, it’s the Round Mound of Ups and Downs.
While I can agree with that statement in general, I think it´s not fair to compare the consistency of Powe and BBD. Powe was a second-year-player, while Baby was a Rookie, and everyone knows that Rookies are prone to inconsistent play.
Powe is much better at creating his own shot. I don’t know what Glen Davis YOU were watching but the one I saw shoots poorly from the outside and has trouble scoring over defenders. He has to be amazingly “creative” because he has little lift by NBA standards – so like Walker he needs to throw up garbage shots.
by Sweet17 on Sep 23, 2008 7:10 AM EDT reply actions
Not to sound cliche, but it is up to both players. I hope both of them have progressed because if that is the case, we have a GOOD problem on our hands. I think Powe has an edge simply because of his maturity and poise. Not to mention he is more Athletic. But as long as Davis maintains his focus, he will be an asset. We WILL NEED HIM simply because there are tasks that Powe will simply be inadequate. Specifically with guarding bigger guys when Perk is in foul trouble (I’m not sure about O’ Bryant either). Bottom line is Doc will be taking this game by game. Whoever he feels most effective for each game plan will be the guy coming off the bench. Both better be ready and both better not grow any egos. Worse case? One gets a lot better than the other. Nothing wrong with that.
Well, first of all, there was no platoon at the beginning of last season. Leon sat on the bench with zero minutes for the first third of the season, not getting any serious run until Garnett went down. And I know everyone hates the idea of KG “backing up at Center” but either he was doing that, or Leon/BBD was backing up Perk, however you want to divide the 2 bigs on the floor at one time. In reality, neither really backed up Garnett for a significant amount of minutes at the “power forward position”, given the amount of minutes KG played in comparison to Perk.
There are only about 10 minutes available, tops, at actual power forward when KG is out of the game, barely enough for one guy, let alone two. I think camp is going to be a battle, and as much as O’Bryant only seems to be liked by the guy who brought #17 who signed him, he certainly has a chance to earn some minutes in the frontcourt rotation also. The BBD/Powe thing partly emerged because of the ultimate futility of Pollard last year. If the 22 yr old O’Bryant brings anything more than Pollard, that is even fewer minutes available for the 2 headed monster. I really think pragmatically only one can play any kind of meaningful minutes, and it really depends on who they are playing and which skills are needed. We all know how Doc loves to screw up rotations to mess with posters at CelticsBlog, so don’t be surprised if it is not as clear cut as the fantasy GM’s would like it to be.
Powe 1st Baby 2nd. I like them both together on the second unit and I like Powe to play center with KG but Baby also depending on the match-up with KG. We still need a vet big for the playoffs PJ is the answer and if not I hope there are others because we do not have Posey it will be a must to have a vet big man to win 18.
I’m tired of people throwing out this notion that BBD is somehow “so much more talented” than Powe. They both played at upper level D1 schools and put up similar numbers. The only reason people think somehow BBD is better is because he is a little bit of a circus freak with his size. If he was a normal sized ball player he wouldn’t get anywhere near the notariety he gets.
Face it. He is an undersized PF that somehow people think translates even to being a center. He has a terrible vertical which requires him to shoot unusual shots (similar to Antoine Walker’s post game) He has an ugly outside shot. He passes solidly. He rebounds solidly. He is a mediocre free throw shooter. What am I missing here guys?!?!
He wasn’t thought of even well enough to get picked in the late round of the draft with no injury problems. Even Danny didn’t think he was worth selecting over Gabe Pruitt. This guy is destined to bounce around the league being a decent backup unless he eats his way out of the league. Nothing more. If that’s all there is, then give me Powe’s heart and work ethic. That’s who we want coming off the bench. I’m okay if BBD stays, but if one goes there shouldn’t even be a debate.
I really look at this as apples and oranges. Powe is a PF and BBD is a short center. BBD has a real presence in the pivot and he knows how to play the 5 whereas Powe is a pure, hustle PF. I actually like both of their games for different reasons. I give the edge to BBD on team D and creating his own shot. I give the edge to Powe on man on man D and rebounding.
by The Real Large James on Sep 23, 2008 11:21 AM EDT reply actions
Keep Neon Leon!
Tradewise, it might be interesting to let a potential trade partner for a back-up Center choose between Neon Leon and Baby. Recall that when Gerald Henderson got traded to Seattle, we actually let Seattle choose between Danny and Gerald. Letting the other team choose might enhance their willingness to trade. It’d be curious to have Danny do something similar as GM. Just a thought.
I really don’t see what everyone has against 6’9 inch Center/Power forwards. Plenty of the greatest centers in the history of the NBA have been under 6’10. Not saying that Charles Barkley was ever a center, but he was an undersized power forward that was one of the most dominant at his position during his time. I say keep both of these guys to spell minutes for perk and KG because they both bring different things to the table. When a guy that is the 2nd 3rd or 4th player off the bench and can go off for 20 points any given Sunday then why get rid of them. This whole height thing is mind boggling. See BBD vs. Tim Duncan
by REGGIEEEE on Sep 23, 2008 11:33 AM EDT reply actions
“He wasn’t thought of even well enough to get picked in the late round of the draft with no injury problems”
BBD was thought of as a lottery pick before he decided to stay at LSU another year
by REGGIEEEE on Sep 23, 2008 11:35 AM EDT reply actions
what 2 studs are bbd and powe. i would- only if i had to- and only if i got something valuable in return-trade bbd. powe’s knees while not an issue as of yet, scare me. bbd and powe easily could do what gomes did last year on the right team. on our team, they won’t be stat marvels. is mr. craig smith, ex of bc and now on minn. better than these 2 , the same or less? i like smith better.
Powe is a supremely talented player, and should be the first big off the bench. Big baby doesn’t bring nearly the spark that powe does. POWE ALL THE WAY!
by celticsforlupper on Sep 23, 2008 12:38 PM EDT reply actions
As of the end of last season, Powe is the better player. Davis has more potential. If Davis can’t beat Powe out for the backup 4 position this year, he needs to be moved. There is no reason to pay 2 backup 4s (3 if you include Scal) – $3/year. That’s what the C’s would probably have to do starting next year.
For now platoon them. Make it a competition. Both are equally trade-able.
Keep both I like situational platooning. BBD DID do a good job on T Duncan by just spreading his rear and showing lateral quick feet. Don’t worry about height. Some matchups won’t work but then you have Leon or KG sliding over. Both these guys are young, NBA keepers. Why give one away? There will be plenty of minutes over an 82 game schedule
Danny will and should play both to keep both of their trade values as high as possible. If he benches one then that player has a lot less value. I assume the organization hopes to move one or the other in the future, so platooning them makes sense.
by flanders on Sep 23, 2008 1:04 PM EDT reply actions
I’m not trying to compare baby to sir charles by any stretch. I was just trying to make the point that you dont need to be over 6’10 feet to be a servicable center in this league. For whats out there and what we could even get in a trade i would much rather keep these two players.
For all the talks about getting a center through a trade, what is out there? i can see a trade going through portland to get a center, because danny has a huge trade chip in Darius miles. He could trade him to portland for either pryzbilla or another center through a three way trade then maybe there is something because we all know that portland doesnt want to have him on their cap. But in all honesty, what does pryzbilla bring to the table that these two dont. And i really dont see Pryz going anywhere because they lost channing frye for a while.
by REGGIEEEE on Sep 23, 2008 1:29 PM EDT reply actions
“He wasn’t thought of even well enough to get picked in the late round of the draft with no injury problems”
BBD was thought of as a lottery pick before he decided to stay at LSU another year
—- Yes, and then he went out and played another year and his stock dropped. What does that tell you?! He just isn’t that great. Solid, yes. No where near great. When you only work hard/keep your weight in check right before the draft or a contract year then you should watch out.
Just because someone hasn’t done anything yet doesn’t always mean they have “potential”. It may just mean you overvalued them in the first place.
I’m fine with keeping them both, but if one goes it is a no-contest.
It isn’t close. Powe is the superior player by a mile. This “Davis has more potential” stuff is garbage. Powe is and always will be better than Glen Davis. And that’s no knock on Davis. I think he can be a valuable contributor to any team. Powe is just, really, really good.
I think most people don’t understand how valuable offensive rebounding is. He’s already one of the best in the league. Should his offensive rebound percentage continue to hover around 15%, he’ll be one of the best of all time.
He’s also underrated as a 1v1 post scorer. He’s not quite as polished as Baby, but he’s very good at just attacking the rim and drawing contact.
by cmoney on Sep 23, 2008 1:37 PM EDT reply actions
steelbos – Can you justify that higher basketball IQ thing? Was it BBD’s poor play giving Powe all the minutes towards the end of the season? Was it Powe’s consistency vs. BBD’s few good games all year? Was it Powe dominating the Lakers in a huge game in the finals? Was exactly was it that showed BBD having good basketball IQ and Powe not having that?
See how both Baby and Powe “fit” with JR, Walker, Miles and how each improves. Then decide what player is the better fit and what “value” each has on the market. That seems to be the only common sense approach at this time. You always dream that they both excel, both stay Celtics, we continue to get rings but we’ll have to play that choice card if and when the time comes.
by docextension on Sep 23, 2008 5:29 PM EDT reply actions
Regarding BBD, I agree with " He has to be amazingly “creative” because he has little lift by NBA standards – so like Walker he needs to throw up garbage shots." Aside from “creative” shots, he gets blocked almost at will, and he does not seem to draw fouls. That said, he’s quick. Powe is more fixed to playing and defending around the basket, but with longer arms and good lift. The quickness of BBD is unique, but if he can’t turn that into an explosiveness he will never get the separation needed for him to get his shot off. Powe is the safer bet, just because he can make himself a contributor with just hard work. BBD has to become Very…. unique….but his quickness may become so superior by NBA standards, that he just might.
“Leon Powe should be in a Celtic uniform for life. Everything about Powe (work ethic, determination, battle to overcome adversity, etc) screams Boston Celtic.”
No disrespect to Baby but agreed
by JR Giddens on Sep 23, 2008 6:03 PM EDT reply actions
If I had to choose I’d rather keep Powe but I prefer to keep both for now. I still see improvement in both of their games and if you trade either one now you might not get as much in return as you could later on. I’d like to see what all these young guys can do over the first half of the year and if needed make a trade then.
Powe. Man I love that picture of Powe shooting the basket from his knees. I sent it to my buddy who is a big PHX fan, but also a big Cal fan. He was torn….
But back on target: Powe. When people talk about “blue collar” or “lunch pail” players, they mean Powe (I shudder to think that people used to describe Mark Blunt this way…)
The past injuries with Powe are just as much as concern as Baby’s weight IMO. Which is the reason Powe dropped in the draft. You can’t use one as an argument and ignore the other. That and BBD has more skills that he can use to be successful. As plainly as I can put it. BBD is better all around Basketball player which if I had to chose would be reason I would go with BBD. I think this will play out over this season. I’m hoping for BBD because you can control weight easier than 2 bad knees. Check out a Powe shooting a FT one time and tell me you don’t notice something a bit off.
I honestly can’t believe there’s an arguement here. I could end up being wrong, but Big baby is more of a character and that seems to be the reason why he’s got so much love on here. who doesn’t love a giant infant? But SERIOUSLY folks, Powe put 21 on the Lakers in the finals, and I dont remember seeing big baby do nothin. Finals are when it is all put on the line. I believe Powe would be starting at the PF spot for a third of the teams in the NBA. You cant spell power without POWE!
by celticsforlupper on Sep 25, 2008 2:43 AM EDT reply actions
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