Okay, who wants to step up and make the usual argument for Glen Davis, the “at least he hustles” one? As I pointed out earlier this morning, my dog “plays with effort” too, but he can’t cut it as a backup center either.

I don’t care anymore what Doc thinks he has and hasn’t seen in practice. I want to see Patrick O’Bryant get a serious trial as backup center – on the court, in games. He has decent offensive moves in the paint, a respectable mid-range jumper, and more than enough height and leaping ability to finish around the paint (all of which, Davis doesn’t have).

If O’Bryant can’t cut it, I want to see it with my own eyes. I’ve already seen enough of Davis.

He’s wrong, of course. Even if BBD were as bad as he says (he isn’t), there’s no way that a 15-minute rotation player can destroy a team.

You will see plenty of derogatory stuff about the Celtics reserves between now and the trading deadline. Some of this stuff will be planted by other GMs to devalue these players for trading purposes.

PP’s fatigue and or knee, and Rondo having games on both sides of the spectrum have a lot more effect than Baby. House shooting poorly from the three does too.

Doc has in the past criticized Powe’s defense so he and tibs are seeing something on d to cause Baby to be in more then Powe. Powes presence causes KG to move too far out. Whether anyone wants to hear it or not this is what is happening because there is no way anyone can say Baby’s stats are better than Leon’s

Of course, there’s the bogus “showcasing” theory. But you don’t showcase a player whose contract is expiring. No tean is going to give much value for a two-month rental. If a team likes BBD they will wait until he becomes an unrestricted free agent in June and go after him then. (Ainge did not get a 3rd year team option on BBD.)

Actually, the same holds true for Powe, who is also unrestricted at the end of the year. And no team is looking for young players like Powe or BBD to shore up their benches short-term for the playoffs. Teams want veterans for that.

PER doesn’t account for his defensive attributes. Which are awful. Ruddy awful

Simply untrue. Either he never watched him playing or he has no idea of what is good or bad defense. BBD is too undersized (short, of course) to be a reliable defender in every single game/matchup; but he does lots of other stuff very well. He’s a particularly good post defender and a very good hedger on the pick and roll defense.

Teams have learned to foul BBD whenever he’s down low. He does not protect the ball well with his body. They are making him earn it at the line. As I said the other day, he needs a repetriore uf upfakes so that he can get his defender up in the air before shooting.

He should watch old Paul Silas Tapes. Silas was about the same size.

It was Baby who played Duncan very well:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280210002
 Hey if we could trade Baby for Gomes right now Id do it. Its not an option because of the cap and their contracts, but Gomes helps with our wing shooting and would weaken us down low. The point is that Glenn is just ok and is expendable
The contract situatuion is a mess, but I’ll leave it alone other than to say that by the end of last year DA was going to have to replace/protect PJ, Sam, Posey, Baby, Powe, House and Tony Allen from the championship team. It was going to cost money to do this and trying to do it cheaply was bound to weaken the team when we had a realistic two year window to surround and support PP, Ray and KG.

more than Powe has improved his own!

This is a myth. Check out his defensive stats posted by Roy in the BBD thread. If he was a good defender, it would show up in the teams results. He’s simply not that good right now. I do think the mind is willing, but for BBD the body is unable.

He needs to get into NBA shape if he wants to play – his lack of stamina (how many times is he panting) and lift are really affecting him. This says nothing about the value of his offense (a big negative) versus Powe’s (a marginal plus now, but someone who played very high level ball last year.) KG played a ton of Center last year with Posey as the PF. Do the same with Powe as PF, we’d be fine.

I’m not convinced our bench is so bad, there are a variety of players there that have value, they are just not being used right.

1. They are being used as complementary unit, instead of supplementary players. The negative effect is you have a lower total quality of player on the floor. Additionally instead of learning how to play with the big boys, they are learning to play as the guy at that position – for the second unit. Instead of learning how to excel as an undersized PF/C playing with KG or Perk, Powe is being asked to have the offense run through him. House is not a change of pace PG draining 3pts with guys like KG, Pierce, Allen, and Rondo handling the ball, he’s being asked to be the primary ball handler, etc.

2. Doc hasn’t established a couple of guys as the rotation players and a couple of guys as the “use as needed” reserves. There are games where Scal should be playing SF, games where House should be the SG, and games where Tony Allen should be playing as the wing – but Doc isn’t doing this. I’d like to see Rondo playing the point 35 minutes a night, and Pruitt getting the backup minutes: Pruitt might not pan out, but then we’ll know.. Use House, Allen, and Scal as needed depending on the situation and team – they are all well paid vets and have useful skills, but none warrants a regular spot on this team. Use Powe as the primary big man, and bring in BBD or Scal when situations dictate or there is foul trouble.

Do any of you remember Wayne Embry when he backed up Bill Russell? He was short and low, and gave fits to Chamberlain.

So you take out Davis’s offense, and you have a serviceable defensive center

That’s what it comes down to. There are very few players in the NBA that can move closer to the basket once Baby has set up behind them. They can’t move in the way they want and therefore his defense works. He boxes out well and is an excellent offensive rebounder. He has quick feet and is a good defender for a second year player. His down side is that the only way he becomes a better player is by eliminating his mistakes. He will not be able to jump any higher or finish any better. He has, however, demonstrated that he can use his body on a drive to the basket from time to time. But what you see is what you get with him. The more he understands his role the better player he will be. Remember he is a 2nd year, 2nd rounder.

Well, that might change if he’d learn a little baby hook or a fallaway jumper like Carlos Boozer.

Davis was pretty effective against opposing centers in college, and LSU made it to the NCAA title game with him playing Center and averaging 17-18 ppg.

Dwyer is over the top, but I get the point. Role players are stepping away from their strengths or are being asked to do more than they’re capable of. That rarely works out. See: Celtics 06’-07.

BBD and Powe, while undersized, do things that few other Celtic (or NBA players) do. Which is scrapping for the ball deep in the post. Both being undersized, they’re now frequently blocked when they shoot, or fouled.

BBD has skills, but he is a role player no question. None of those guys should be putting up 12 shots a game unless they’re put-backs of offensive rebounds. The injury to Perk has pushed the issue so no we have BBD, Scal and Powe being asked to play more and do more. They might get away with it for a game or 2, but not for any extended stretch.

Don’t forget that Powe had played very little until last Spring and BBD was a rookie. Now, they’ve been scouted heavily and opponents know what to do with them. The same goes for Rondo. What makes a player good is his ability to adjust to opponents defense. What makes him great is the ability to change and grow his game from year to year.

We’ll see if BBD, Powe and Rondo can adjust and be successful.

Big Baby’ game is my least favorite of all the Celts players. I much prefer Powe to be out there. I’d also prefer POB to be out there.

It was a bad offensive game. It won’t be his last. He’ll also have good games going forward.

And he was good enough defensively to help overcome his bad offense. The Celtics WON THE GAME. You can say exactly the same thing about Garnett, who was 3-16 from the field.

Why do the Celtics always have to play guys that are too short, or too weak on ball-handling, or too whatever? I want Doc to step out of his comfort zone and play a squad that makes sense.

Here’s what constantly occurs to me. In terms of a backup unit (only):

Gabe Pruitt shows promise of being an adequate point guard. Powe is a solid power forward. Scalabrine has just about enough of everything to fill the small forward spot. One could play House or Tony Allen at the 2 spot, depending on whether you want more shooting or slashing. And O’Bryant may be able to give you low post scoring.

To paraphrase somebody (JFK?), some see a poor second unit, and say why? I dream of another unit that could work, and say why not?

Right now:
Leon Powe is playing 15.0 MPG and has a PER of 17.19
BBD is playing 16.8 MPG and has a PER of 7.39

Assuming their PER’s would stay static and everything else is equal (i.e. intangibles/defense) how many points would it be worth if Leon was playing 22 MPG and BBD was play 9.8 minutes per game. Or in otherwords, how many points is a drop of almost 10 PER points for 10 MPG costing the Celtics? I know Pace matters, but roughly speaking? Is it 5 points? Is it 10 points? Because the gap between their defense has to be VERY substantial to make up for that. (And yes I know my assumption that PER would stay static and everything else is equal is not correct, but this would give a baseline to set.) The problem is we aren’t understanding HOW MUCH BETTER BBD’d defense is. People talk about missed rotations etc from Powe, but we need to at least establish a baseline, to see if thats enough to justify Doc’s rotation.

My guess is not, Doc has simply decided to play BBD backup C and Powe as the backup PF, and that’s that.

A basketball court has two ends. Winning begins with defense and BBD is a better defensive player.

Yes, BBD’s defense (and rebounding) is that much better. Just watch the games.

Although BBD obviously needs more time to develop this is not the nature of the celtics problems at this point. This is a personell issue to which Danny is the blame. Considering that Patrick does not play, there is not interior threat on defense once Perk and KG leave the game. Neither Powe or BBD were signed to be an interior shot blockers/ shot alterer. BBD can jump 5’ off the ground on his best days. Powe on the other hand is brute strength but lacks the height and jumping ability to alter shots in the paint..

Why did we not sign Dikembe???? That is the real question..

That’s the real answer.

I never said Celtics ownership was cheap. Where did you get that?

But no ownership likes to play luxury tax, because the money goes to your competitors. Except the Steinbrenners, of course.

A rotation player has a bad night shooting and THAT’S the problem? So KG spending too much extra time on the perimeter when defending picks, and Rondo never going underneath a pick in his entire career and instead electing to attempt to poke the ball away from behind are just mere blips on the radar in comparison to BBD’s horrible PER I guess…..

Remember boys and girls, defense is waaaay more important to this team than shooting percentages, PER or any other offensive measurable.

I will admit however that it was very frustrating watching BBD go 1-12 with about 10 of those shots being within 2 feet from the rim. If he had missed 11 of those Charles Barkley golf swing looking jumpers then I could see getting on his case, but missing a bunch of layups is just a bad night. Everyone, including the man who went 8-10 from the 3pt line yesterday, has a bad night.

No doubt in my mind playing the following as your primary big man sets would be a big help:

Option 1: Perk, KG
Option 2: KG, Powe
Option 3: Perk, Powe

But even if you like BBD better, than use him in the same fashion. No sense (whatsoever) in playing BBD at the same time as Powe.

Jeff, cccasionally, I think you just like popping your head up in the cafeteria and yelling “Food fight!”

Where do any of you bloggers see this team in 4 years? Do you think Rondo is the future at the point? What about Perk at the center position? The latter two questions I’m asking are assuming that the big three are no longer playing and if two out of the three are they have begun to take a lesser role as Reggie Miller did with the Pacers when his career was finishing.

This team will be in the middle of a complete rebuild. I expect that Garnett will still be here, but Ray Allen will be gone and Pierce will be on the verge of retirement.

I expect Rondo to be here, and Perkins, assuming his shoulder holds up. After that, I do not see any members of the current roster as being here 4 years from now, and I do not expect the team to be that good, unless Ainge can persuade LeBron to play for short money in 2010.

Glad we one one title then because this year is not happening and i doubt very much number 18 will happen anytime in the next four years. So I guess we cashed all our chips for title 17! Well at least we ended a long drought.

My opinion? Although the big three something special in Rondo along with the rest of the organization, from watching him play, I echo Stephen A. Smith sentiments. Rondo is not the PG you build a franchise around and for that reason alone I hope they trade him when his stock is high enough! Unless of course we can bring in more talent or JR and Bill turn into special players and not just rotation guys.

Pass the chips….

Actually, I just read almost every bloody one of the posts. This is what Celticsblog is famous for. Wait to go, men!

There are more BB defenders than I thought there were. For the record, I like both players (Powe/Davis). In the past, I’ve been a Davis defender and still like the guy.

I have been purposefully holding off doing another piece on Davis. I must say that a number of BfromB’s thoughts about player evaluation are exactly what I was thinking, when I saw the increased minutes and additional freedom given Glen in games. Most likely that is the case.

I think in reading the thread, both sides made their case. Glen certainly hasn’t improved as I thought he would overall this season. It has been a tough year for him. His defense has gotten better, but his offense has gone down the tubes.

I also don’t believe that Davis will be here next season. But that might just be the best thing for him.

Anyway, great read gentlemen.

T