Same Old Story
by Jeff Clark on Nov 16, 2009 11:05 AM EST
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintStop me when you've heard this refrain. This team isn't getting any younger. (Oh, you stopped me already. Well, I'll try to make some salient points the rest of the way. Thank you for your time and patience.)
Even two years ago, the championship team struggled with the athletic Hawks. Last year the Bulls gave us more fits than they had any right to. Now we've dropped two games in a row to young teams and the question has to be asked. How much of a problem is age going to be this year?
I am not backing off my "don't panic" post from a few days ago. This team is constructed to win a championship this year and baring a major injury the will be in the mix at the end (perhaps even as a favorite). However, you can't expect this team to go after the Jordan-Bulls regular season record (no matter what Sheed says). We've been spoiled the last couple of years with the team flying out of the gates like fighter jets launching off of an aircraft carrier. Most teams, even championship teams, don't do that. Losses happen. Sometimes they happen in bunches. The key is to learn from those losses and not let them become a habit.
The Hawks are a young, hungry, rapidly improving team with playoff experience and a bit of a chip on their shoulders. They really get up for games against teams like the Celtics. It is a major statement when they win those games. The Pacers are a young team in search of an identity. They have a number of new faces and a good deal of talent. In short, they've got no pressure and nothing to lose. They were also lucky enough to catch an aging team on the 2nd half of a back to back. I hate to say I told you so, but I was worried about this past week. And I wasn't alone.
Headed into the game Doc was worried about this particular back-to-back because of the timing.
"It's an 8-7 - 8 p.m. start the first night and 7 the next," he said. "(National) TV games always go longer, so you have that working against you, and then you have to get on the plane and have the early start the next night.
"I had our sleep-deprivation guy look at the schedule and point at the game that would be most difficult to win, and he said the Indiana game. But our bench is deeper now, and hopefully that will help."
The bench didn't help enough this time. It is a good bench and on many situations like this they'll be enough to get us over the top. It just didn't happen for them on Saturday.
The fact that Doc even has a "sleep-deprivation guy" speaks volumes about the state of this team. He's focused a lot of coaching energy on "keeping them fresh." He's in a tough spot really. He has to weigh the pros and cons of practice vs. rest. His team is full of vets who know what they are doing by now, so in theory they don't need as much practice as the next team. Still, a team gels and creates cohesion through repetition and practice. Will they get enough of that throughout the season when the coach is canceling shootarounds like it is April?
If the team is showing signs of being weary this early in the season, what happens in the Spring? What if they bring in someone at the trade deadline, are they going to have enough practice time to work him into the rotation? On the more immediate front, will Big Baby get enough reps to learn his new role on the team once he gets back from his injury?
And I've gone this long without even mentioning Kevin Garnett by name yet. Sure, he can get up for the alley oops from time to time. But more and more he's settling for the alley-layup. He's still very, very, very good, but I'm pretty sure he'll never again be the athletic freak of nature that he once was. The difference between very, very, very good and great will occasionally be the difference in a game.
The same could be applied to a certain extent to Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and Rasheed Wallace. They have all become wily vets who can't do what they used to be able to do but make up for it by playing the game smarter. Is that enough? I think so, but the margin of error is smaller than it was even two years ago.
And really, that's what it boils down to. These November games aren't exactly meaningless. They all count in the record book and they will eventually determine home court advantage (which is important by the way). However, they aren't as important as keeping everyone healthy and rested and prepared for the playoffs. Once the 2nd season gets under way, we'll have to see if this team has enough in the tank to advance and advance and advance and win it all in the end.
Doc may not want to admit this (at least publicly) but he's essentially using these early season games as glorified practices or dress rehearsals for the playoffs. Mistakes will be made and worked on. It is a tactical strategy that I agree with. Just look at last year. We won home court through the first 2 rounds but it didn't help us get past the 2nd round because losing KG trumped the home court advantage.
The key to this strategy is getting all the vets to adapt their games and remain on the same page together. Everyone is learning how to deal with limitations that they never had to deal with before. There are adjustments to be made. With fewer practices, there's less time to work through those changes and maintain cohesion. There's always a danger that alpha dog instincts will supersede the ubuntu philosophy and players will try to win the game by themselves. Doc needs to keep hammering home the message without getting tuned out. A fine balance. This might be Doc's biggest challenge yet.
So this team is getting older. It is one of those fact you have to live with. Like "we are all dying." Some of us slower than others but we all end up at the end eventually. The important thing is what you do in the time allotted to you. Likewise the important thing to the veterans on this team is how they finish out their careers. This might very well be their last shot at a title. They may not win every game, but if they can re-learn how to win in the playoffs, that's all that really matters.
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That....
…was an excellent article that echoed a lot of my own thoughts that I had over the last 2 days.
However, you didn´t mention that nagging feeling that it´s way too early in the season for excuses.
We´ll see, let´s hope for the best.
Yeah
After the game at Indiana I was reminiscing our 2008 championship run (which tells I’m a little worried this season) of how energetic our team was.
Anyway, it’s still November.
"Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing." - Vince Lombardi
We fans always have to worry about something...
Many other teams in the last years started the season not in full strength and finished being NBA champions (Spurs, Pistons…) It’s a long season and it’s normal to lose games. If we were 11-0 people would be worrying if Doc played the starters too much or if these would be meaningless games. It’s too early and our record is pretty good. Why do people always think too much??
getting older and wiser
We learn from the losses. Yes, yes, they are getting older. The infusion of defensive intensity when Davis and TAllen return will be a step up from Hudson and Giddens…ya think. I know you need something to write about, but its alway the moaning and gnashing of teeth. Its the end of the world. The sky is falling. Snap out of it. This team is exciting. Yes, they lost, twice…..but there are reserves coming.
yup. I’d agree with you on holding off on the win now vs rebuild debate that Jeff seems to be pining for lately.
it’s November and we’ve still got a great record, losing only a couple games to solid teams. there is no reason at all to panic.
what’s great about this team is it’s balance. everyone wants to talk about the age of the big 3, but neglects to talk about our top 5 pg in his early 20’s. or Davis, Perk, TA or even Daniels now that all are in their primes.
besides, i thought only Laker fans panic when their team loses regular season games? ;-)
funny
no, I’m not pining for it really – but I’ve got one eye on the future (if only out of habit)
I honestly don’t have a lot of faith that this club can go another 2-3 years at a Championship level without a major addition or two, so the focus (rightly) should be on this year alone
there will be time enough for tomorrow when tomorrow comes
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
if this team makes no trades with the $25mil in expiring contracts we have this year --
we will be stuck with this team as currently consitituted for the next 3 years. so can the team win now? can we add #18 to pad the rough years to come if we stick with our current hand? maybe. we need to see over the next 20 games or so.
I agree that our youth is going to be important for THIS year
but I’m not sure I buy that TAllen and Davis will infuse much defensive intensity. TAllen has been more of a frustrating liability lately and I want BBD back more for his offense at this point.
Despite giving up the 113 to the Pacers, the C’s defense is still overall solid. Only the Pacers and the Suns have busted 100 on these Cs. Even the Hawks, who came in averaging 107+ only scored 94. The Pacers got some unbelievable shooting from Grainger that you aren’t going to see everyday.
So defensively the C’s really haven’t played that bad. They just haven’t been shooting well for about 5 games now. They really missed a lot of easy shots this weekend. BBD does have a pretty consistent offensive game and can bang under the paint with his weight as well as shoots a nice jumper. That would definitely help right now. We need another offensive option off the bench to cover when Sheed and House are slumping like this.
In regards to ‘the future’ – the future is now even with our youngsters. Rondo, Perkins, Williams, Davis, Daniels, House, Walker, Hudson -— that’s the core of a pretty damn good YOUNG team and I expect Doc to give them collectively a TON of minutes this year to keep the Big Four rested.
Good thoughts, Jeff.
many are similar to my own.
Landscaping -
They’re like old landscapers –
They know how to mow, cut trees, trim hedges, weed beds, etc.
But they get tired and can’t work until dark.
.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
Guess the wife kept you busy this weekend,
eh, MCPU40, LOL.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
I am glad the celtics are having some of these struggles early – i didn’t like some of the comments the players were making about going for the Bulls’ record and of being the best defense to ever play, etc – they were getting too far ahead of themselves and i think were getting into bad habits (shooting too many 3s comes to mind). They have to tell Sheed he is not here to chuck up 3-pointers at an alarming rate – he is here to be a presence off the bench, provide some rebounding, toughness and scoring. but his 3-point barrage has to stop. Considering his minutes, and his shooting percentage, the number of 3s he has taken is absurd.
I agree. Rasheed needs to stay near the basket against small bodies and draw big guys out with his outside shooting. if he does this, then other guys will get layups
by vgarcia890 on Nov 16, 2009 10:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think I made the comparision
about the Celtics becoming an old folks home during the summer!!!……. and was of course ……summarily dismissed as ????…….. an old geezer who worries too much
Well just go ahead and click on my Larry Bird nose anytime you want some more Geezer insight.
actually I think we’ll be fine……as long as the Medicare “Hover Around” wheel chairs arrive before All-star break
Is it Soup Yet?
I think the correct term is ‘debil’ ;-)
It´s a bit early for I told you so -posts, but I`m even happier today that we didn`t get Grant Hill, that`s for sure.
It is a bit early
but when you’re my age ……you gotta start early.
I think we will be fine (reverse jinx)
Is it Soup Yet?
Actually
The one silver lining for me has been Garnett’s improvement the last few games.
I have been telling myself repeatedly that he just needs to play his way back, because I’ve been pretty worried by what I’ve seen.
by Thruthelookingglass on Nov 16, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
the injury doesn't worry me
My impression from reported comments is that the injury is pretty much fixed by the surgery and healed.
However, if you’ve ever had knee surgery or a broken leg or a cast on or whatever, you’ll know that the lack of use for just a few weeks really debilitates all the rest of the muscles in the leg.
It can take months and months to rebuild the leg strength back to where it was before – and that is where they have to be careful because you can injure some other leg muscle if you stress it before its ready to handle it. I remember coming back from arthro on my knee and it took a loong time, even though the pain from the original injury was completely gone. My leg was just weak as a kitten for a while. I had to be careful to avoid cramping and stressing of the rest of the leg!
My eye test tells me that KG’s doing OK. I see flashes that show that the capability is all there still, but occasional lapses also seem to indicate he’s not completely at 100% strength in the leg. But so long as he doesn’t get some other injury, it should come all the way back eventually.
thanks
That’s what I’ve been hoping and you’ll help me stay positive!
by Thruthelookingglass on Nov 16, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Nice article
Nice job Jeff. I like that you’re not panicking…unlike say….me…. ..lol
Nice Article
Really said a lot of what we are thinking.
Reporter: About a year ago I asked about the Celtics-Lakers thing and you said you'd really only seen it on TV. Now you've been through it, can you talk about playing the Boston Celtics for the NBA championship?
Kobe: It Sucks.
KG is always the "Barometer"
Comparing 2008 to 2010 after 11 games :
—The current team has 20% fewer wins {8 vs. 10}
—KG has 19% fewer rebounds
—KG has 23% fewer blocks
—KG has 15% fewer FGA
—KG has 27% fewer points
Conclusion : After 11 games, KG is 80% of what he was…and so is the team!
Its not the end of the world guys. LA just lost 2 straight. We will be fine. I don’t see age being the reason for these losses. I see over confidence as the main issue, which will be corrected.
hey, im also trying not to freak out
i know we dont have gasol yet and im clinging to that, lol
the truth is its early and its better the teams struggle early and get it together as the season goes on.
by true_lakerfan on Nov 16, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Can't wait for Big Baby to return.
Not that he’s the difference, but when the oldies aren’t getting it done, it would be nice to be able to bring in Shelden AND Baby.
yeah i agree
Baby adds a nice additional offensive option off the bench. He, Shelden and Sheed actually make for a pretty imposing ‘big three’ in the paint off the bench.
Bad, not tired
I think the Cs have lost the last two games because they’ve played poorly, not because they are tired. KG’s not the only one playing at 80% of what they’ve played the last two years: Ray, Kendrick, and Rajon, despite a few good games from each, are not playing as consistently well. Or at least bad enough for me to wish at times the old Pierce would take over and win the game for us…. I’m looking forward to Tony coming back. Some lockdown perimeter D off the bench would be very helpful, and since we have Daniels, there’s no reason for Turnover Tony to touch the ball on the other end.
The Celtics woes the last few games ...
I at least think are not at all due to physically being old.
Because even the younger players like Perk and Rondo look old, tired and lethargic out on the floor.
The player young and old have just not showed any heart and motivation the last 2 games.
Hopefully this lack of energy by the team is just a bump in the road and the matter will remedied starting the next game.
excellent thoughts, jeff
I like the “regular-season-is-practice-for-the-postseason” mindset. No one doubts we’re going to be there. The Bulls record is silly. Home court advantage is nice, but I think it will matter less than 2 years ago. At this point, the Celtics have to be just as sharp at home as on the road, so it’s really a matter of focus.
There’s a lot to be said for approaching the variety of opponents and situations the regular season provides as tuneups and learning experiences as a team, while still having a desire (and a good chance) to win every night. That helps build team confidence. If we just ride one of our superstars every night, I think that takes away from our playoff-readiness.
Let’s put it this way – I’d rather be 8-3 with our Top 6 averaging double figures in scoring (well, Sheed – 9.7) and everyone in our 9-man rotation averaging no less than 6 pts, than be 11-0 with the Big Three averaging 20s and everyone else in single digits. Why? Because it makes us more dangerous in the playoffs, finding out who is capable of stepping up, and having the opportunities to practice them in real-game situations.
They're not hungry anymore
Even the fakers are on a losing streak
I’ll say this:
We need hunger and motivation, not arrogance and entitlement. I’m getting much more of the latter from this team so far.
On KG
He’s not ‘very, very good’ at this moment, or even close — he’s pretty good. Hopefully he gets back to 80-90% of what he was, as opposed to the current 60%.
Which is why when Doc pulled Shelden Williams in favor of KG down the stretch at Indy, I felt we were done for (I was right). Williams was playing probably his best game as a pro and doing a fairly good imitation of what KG once was. Right now an average KG perormance is only a bit better than an average Williams’ performance, i.e. KG’s playing just above the level of a solid bench player. If he gets most of his game back, the Celts will be an entirely different team.
by BouncingBuckeye on Nov 16, 2009 2:11 PM EST reply actions
BTW – I remember some aging Celts teams from the past — ‘69 and ’76 come to mind — which drifted therough the regular season on automatic pilot and manged to win championships. I’d rather see that than have them go all out and peter out in the end. I’d just like to feel sure that the elders still have the physical ability to get it done when it really counts. I’m not convinced yet, but it isn’t time to panic. However, it may be time to get Hudson/Walker some minutes so that they can give you something later when you need a jolt of athleticism.
by BouncingBuckeye on Nov 16, 2009 2:19 PM EST reply actions
Horrible coach for young guys
The answer is to play the young guys. Don’t believe that! This is November and you’re talking about playing nurse maid to the OLD THREE. If the young guy’s are not played now and I mean right now, how tired are the OLD THREE going to be come playoff time. I think I heard someone say the bench can’t be depended on. Do you really think we can depend on the OLD THREE next year. The answer is a resounding no. So what is the answer? Play the young guy’s right now. The one’s that make it we keep and the ones that can’t swim will drown. We should win a championship but we will not if we don’t play the youth. Players don’t learn to play on the bench, they need floor time. The real march to banner 18 and our future lies in our youth.
Does anyone remember 2 years ago when no one wanted to come here. The players did not change there minds because of Celtic pride they were willing only because of a chance to play for a tittle. That transformation can only happen if Doc play’s the young guy’s now. The bridge to our future lies in playing the young guy’s.
Danny is a great judge of talent but Doc won’t play the young guys.
TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT DANNY GOT US
Sheldon Williams been here 90 days starting to get double doubles all ready
Big Baby only got real playing time because there was not other choice
Lester Hudson learning to play point, but was the seconding scorer in college last year
Giddens needs plays where he posts his man up or they foul him,
Daniels can do every thing OK
Walker just needs to hit the floor, every one has growing pains
At least we will know what our future will look like, because the big three will not be here. Consider this…what about the big three coming off the bench next year, since they get tired so fast.
Playing The Young Guys
One of the veteran Celts said about the Pacer’s game that one of the reasons he thought the starters didn’t play well at the end was because of several blowouts the bench has played the whole 4th quarter and the vets weren’t prepared (blames themselves) for not reacting well to the situation. As to Doc being a horrible coach for young guys do some more research. Perk and Rondo were and still are young guys playing for Doc. They seem to be doing okay. Al Jeff and Gomes developed under Doc. Shelden Williams is playing well for the first time since entering the league and Doc is his coach. Baby developed under Doc. Hudson is getting some good minutes and he looks like a player. Giddens, Walker, TA just haven’t gotten the job done. Doc can play them all day and they won’t get better. And this tired business is getting old. In the games they lost the Celts didn’t play well. It happens. And each time the players call the blame to themselves, not to the coaches and not to other players.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
"Criminally Negligent Officiating"--Tommy Heinsohn
Interesting Mood here with the Article..but a good one!
However I am not worried. Doc Rivers is an experienced coach and he (along with the players and DA) will figure this out.
As a C’s fan since 1981, I have seen my share of ups and downs with this team. Right now, it just seems like the whole mood here is almost borderline panic…God forbid Boston loses against GSW.
The bottom line (to me at least) is come May2010, will ATL be able to compete against BOS, ORL, CLE, or even MIA? Will the Pacers make the playoffs?
And if Boston loses to GSW on Wednesday, do we make preparations to do a major trade? I think not.
The Spurs are having some rough spots right now, but they are still favorites to challenge LA this year.
I don’t live in Boston, but I must say that Bostonians have been blessed to have some VERY good teams over the last several years (Pats, Celts, BoSox, Bruins). A few loses doesn’t mean it’s over.
Please don’t call the fire dept over ATL and Indy. Yes they are talented teams, but Championships aren’t won in November.
Defense wins games (And Championships)!
The Problem
It isn’t legs, it isn’t age. This team is so good that it approaches games clinically and with nothing to prove. I think they are playing without emotion. Beating Indiana means nothing to them, while Indiana beating us means everything. At the same time House and Sheed are not hitting their shots. Ray isn’t hitting his three’s, but is making up for it in other ways. I think Doc is still playing with the rotations. Early on Daniels and House just seemed to click. Now Rondo is playing with them and the dynamics change. Every year they go thru a bad stretch. Hopefully this is it for this year.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
"Criminally Negligent Officiating"--Tommy Heinsohn
celtics aging time to panic ?
look this season is not going to be a cake walk and i,ts not a given that we are going to get home court in the east but when the trade deadline comes about look for ainge to pull off a trade of a walton type like in 86 to put us over the top and we will be in the finals ..
total over analyzing
Now the Hawks are the #1 team in the Power Rankings
“But it was defense and rebounding (16 offensive boards) that got Friday’s win in Boston.”
That is what they tell you. Why don’t they just tell you the Celtics got called for 10 consecutive non-intentional fouls over a period of 5:38 in crunch time in the 4th?
Why is it always the play that wins, and never the call, when the play is not yet validated until the call confirms it? It is ALWAYS a combination of plays and calls, unless you win by 39 points then the calls don’t matter because the game is already decided.
There is nothing wrong with this team whatsoever, the players, the personnel, their age, the coaches, the GM, their chemistry, what positions they play, their youth, nothing absolutely nothing. The Celtics at 8-3 are an awesome ball club that is the #1 team in the NBA. Every team has faults, and no team is better than the Celtics this year. The only combination of players who is better than this Celtics team is different players from different teams. No one team in the NBA this year is a better basketball club than the 2009-10 Celtics.
This team has one and one problem only as long as they stay healthy. It is the refs and how they make calls in relation to the personalitlies on the Celtics. The Celtics are not respected for the class acts they are and how they play the game on the court.
The Celtics are #1 in handling calls and behaving on the court and they always have been as long as the NBA has been around.
Tyquinton
What are you smoking? What young guys do you want Doc to play:
Giddens – He’s 25 – older than Perk, BBD, Rajon, – and with Boston not picking up his option is trade bait (expiring contract). This was Danny trying for the homerun and it didn’t work out.
Lester Hudson I believe is either 23 or 24 again not really that young in today’s NBA. He’s a roster filler. He worked hard and Danny had an open spot. The kid has talent, but might be too old to ever get a chance to develop.
Walker, he’s injured and can’t play. I like him but who knows if he’ll ever be healthy.
TA is young, well not really and he’s injured as well and most people on this site hate the guy ( so I guess he’s not the youngster you’re talking about. Scal, not really young. Ed well he’s over 30.
Williams and Quisy – they are young, sort of, but they are in the rotation. Rondo and Perk are young, kind of, but they are starters, I guess they are getting enough minutes.
So who do you want Doc playing big minutes to transition from the current group to the next group. Let’s face it, the face of the Celts in the future are Rondo, Perk, BBD (maybe, I think he’ll be traded), and Quisy. That’s it. It’s going to be a big rebuilding process when they guys are done over the next 3 years.
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