I have a mental block on this. Why is Ray’s expiring contract more valuable to other teams than it is to the Celtics? If we take back younger “value” for Ray we get no cap relief next year. Why not enjoy that cap relief for the Cs and get the most out of an aging gunslinger?

Well, there are two scenarios.

1. Trade him for “nothing” (players you don’t want with expiring contracts) so long as you get a decent draft choice or two in the deal, and maybe a young “long shot” prospect with a low salary. Remember that the Celtics have not had an infusion of lottery talent since they drafted Al Jefferson, and the lack of real quality youth is beginning to show. Glenn Davis was a steal, but there is a reason why he went in the second round.

2. Trade him for younger players you might want but who have bad contracts on financially strapped teams. The obvious first target is Chris Paul: the deal would be Ray and Rondo for Paul and filler (probably Mo Pete and Songaila). Another deal would be Ray and cash to Charlotte for Boris Diaw and Stephen Jackson. That deal gives Charlotte a ton of cap relief, and will help Bob Johnson sell the team.

I would point out that when the Garnett deal went down, the “conventional wisdom” was that the Celtics had a three year window in which to win a championship. Well, we are in year three and it looks to me as though the window has closed. Maybe they will pull off a playoff miracle as in 1969, but I doubt it.

please tell me where the scoring will come from if we traded ray? rondo isn’t a scorer, Perk isn’t a scorer and right now neither are KG, Wallace or house. So where are the points going to come from? Besides Pierce there is no one else on the team that is capable of going for 30 every night. Other guys might score 30 in a game but it would be a rarity. Ray on the other hand, if given enough shots, could easily get 30 . He stinks on pick and roll D and his ball handling is suspect but he’s still better than 90% of the guys in the nba. I’ve been saying for a while that we need another shooter. I was really hoping danny would find one in the off season but those guys are hard to find so that tells you right there how hard it is to find a guy like ray allen. Who was the last great shooter in this league who also plays tough D? Maybe Dwayne Wade but he’s not a pure shooter like Ray. Dale Ellis, Reggie Miller, Dale CUrry were allpoor defensive players. MJ was probably the only shooting guard in the modern era who played great D as well as O.

Kobe Bryant
John Havlicek
Joe Dumars

And if you traded Ray for CP3, I think you’d be adding a scorer, doncha think? And in my other scenario, Stephen Jackson can score just fine.

So you don’t trade Ray. You let his deal expire and then try to resign him for much less money. That’s just throwing in the towel if winning championships is what matters to you. What you would have is the second coming of Reggie Miller— the ringless Reggie Miller.

Ray Allen gets somewhat of a free pass, people consider him a better player then rondo and part of the “big 3”, but when he plays bad he gets completely let off the hook, as we all know, completly different story with rondo.

Ray Allen is the highest paid player on the team
Last season in the Orlando series he completly dissapeard and was the celtics worse player, for some reason noone talked about it, all i heard was how bad rondo was.
This season he is consistently exposed on defense, and is shooting a career low from 3
Even the year we won the ship his shooting woes almost killed us in the first 2 rounds, and u can pretty much expect him to have another one this year in the playoffs

But with that said everyone who is talking about cp3 is in la la land, not to mention chris paul is a fraud

“We want to win as many championships as we possibly can.
We`re still a few short of our rival, and it`s our intention to catch them.

My son, when he picked up the trophy, he announced our clear-cut rival.
It`s obvious our whole family feels that way."

I’m a life long C’s fan, originally from New England, but when I was a kid I was also a huge Michael Jordan fan (who wasn’t). Towards the end of MJ’s tenure with the Bulls we saw much of the same thing. The regular season was a struggle and a grind. The Bulls were a group of talented , yet aging veterans that looked at times like they were just treading water until the playoffs rolled around, when they did, the Bulls dominated. Fast forward to this years version of the Celtics, and I see much of the same. When this team is giving 100%, and they will in the playoffs, and if they can stay healthy, I don’t think anyone can touch them. I agree with all the aforementioned financial reasons to trade Ray, but if you remove is jump shot from that offense, Rondo will not be nearly as effective at the point. This team has the perfect balance right now, and you play to win a championship this season. Oh yeah, does anyone remember the Bulls series just a few months ago? Without Ray, we may lose that series. Let his contract expire and dip into the one of the deepest free agent pools ever

Alll I’m doing is predicting future “failure” based on present performance. What else would you base your predictions on?

Suppose they win 54 games and make it to the EC finals, where they lose to the young, athletic Atlanta Hawks. Would you consider that to be success or failure?

Assuming the season goes that way, how would you assess their chances of winning a title in 2010-2011?

From 1989 through 1993 the Celtics won 52, 56, 51 and 48 games, yet never came close to the NBA finals. Would you view those seasons as successes or failures?

To me, you either win a title or you’ve failed,. especially when you have a payroll of over 85 million.

And when you can’t compete for a title, it’s time to rebuild, so you do not have to endure years like 1994-2007.

Have never played for either Thibs or Rivers.

Did anybody expect 82-0? These three key additions are learning Thib’s defense, Rivers’ whatevers, and their roles. Garnett still looks like he’s getting in basketball shape. Davis has been out. With all of this, the team is on pace to win 57 games.

Except for the first game of the season, they haven’t beaten a good team, and they’ve struggled to beat bad teams. They aren’t rebounding. They look old and slow, except for Rondo, who just looks confused. It’s embarrassing.

They aren’t beating any good team in the playoffs without MAJOR improvements. Even the first round will be a struggle, because they will be a #3 or #4 seed, not a top seed.

Guy, let`s stop shooting the messenger!

But I’d be evaluating moves to make if things don’t straighten out soon.

If they were taking the Popovich approach, what is happening would be of less concern. But this team and coach started off with some big statements, and they have stumbled out of the gate…record notwithstanding.

More important, they do look uninspired and slow – except for Rondo and Pierce, and they can’t do it alone. Ray is in great shape and has been overlooked. But it’s not about the individual parts at this point.

It’s about the chemistry and energy. If they don’t get that straightened out over the next month, it’s time to start looking at moves of some of the individual parts.

Ironically, it’s been largely the starters that are having problems.

Why would we trade Ray?? I know he has the expiring contract, and Paul Pierce is a Celtic no matter what, and KG is not a tradeable option, I understand. But from a basketball standpoint, the reason a lot of times Rondo has room to drive the lanes, the reason Paul Pierce isn’t drawing double teams in the mid-post or when operates off the top of the key, is because of #20. Ray’s being a 3pt threat, does so much for the way the offense operates.

Think about how many screens are set away from the ball for ray, extended to the 3 pt line. If we were to trade for RIp Hamilton for example, we could run virtually the same plays, but the screens would have to be set closer to the basket, and it will close the driving lanes, because Rip is a mid-range scorer, whereas Ray is long-range and mid-range.

But most importantly, I keep reading, “trade Ray and get a younger budding star on the rise”……..That makes a lot of sense, but lets be realistic…WHAT GM IN THE LEAGUE WOULD GIVE UP THEIR YOUNG RISING STAR FOR AN AGING (but still effective) RAY ALLEN?? I think its important to take the other perspective when you talk about trading people. Isaiah Thomas is no longer a GM, and so I doubt there are any GM’s who want to keep their jobs, would trade their younger future star, for Ray Allen, it doesn’t make sense, from the other perspective.

Sorry, to destroy everyone’s dreams and wishes, and ignoring your one-tracked minds, but a dose of reality is needed, in this discussion.

It’s equivalent to us trading Rondo (closest thing we have to a young rising star). Trading Rondo for Peja Stojakovic……..(not to say Peja is as good as Ray, cuz he’s not, but its the principle, and he’s the closest player in comparison to Ray, as far as an aging shooter and former all-star)

What you can expect is two younger but expensive players, or else a decent pick.

So, shall we just wring our hands and slide into mediocrity, as the Celtics did after 1988?

If we’re giving up on him, we’re giving up on a title this year. Which I don’t think anyone in the Celts organization is willing to do. Because, if they do float Ray out there, his value goes down. We will get back matching money but not matching value if you look at “value” as salary flexibility going into next year.

Much better to go down shooting for a title with Ray and then dropping 20 million off the books, than taking damaged or over-priced goods from someone else.

One thing that ought to be clear now is that Ray is looking at maybe $5 mil per year next year, not the ridiculous combinations (years and money) thrown out on this blog a month ago.

Well, the Ray has been playing, there will be no title if we keep him, either. He’s playing poorly at both ends. Maybe he’s hurt, and if that’s the case, Rivers should give him a few games off and see what Lester Hudson can do at the sg position.

Compared to his career averages, he is down just slightly in minutes played (35.2 vs 37.2/game), shooting slightly better overall (FG%=.467 vs .448) and committing slightly fewer turnovers (1.9 vs 2.3) with about the same number of steals (1.1 v 1.2). He is down in the number of shots (12.1 v 16.2 – but not significantly since he became a Celtic (13.4) and his points are correspondingly down (15.0 v 20.8 career or about 17.8 as a Celtic). Since he joined the Celtics he does not need to take so many shots (notably his FG% as a Celtic is a little better than his career FG%).

The biggest drop in Ray’s game is really just in the 3pt shot department. His 3P attempts (4.0 v 6.1) and percentage (.304 v .397) are both way down. And that is probably single-handedly dragging down Ray’s PER, TS% and eFG% stats which are all below his career numbers. But that’s based only 56 3PA total! Hardly a statistically significant sample. He could easily go 4 for 6 from beyond the arc in a couple of games and those stats will all shoot up. Because the number totals are all too small to judge right now.

Brick – you need to step back and relax and let the season unfold a little bit more.

I haven’t read through all the post so I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but, Ray, Pierce, and KG have way to much chemistry together for Danny the even consider breaking them up. There are only a few players that could replace Ray, while maintaining team chemistry, and buying into and accepting the defensive identity of the C’s. I personally believe that the Ray trade talks pre-season where a little over dramatic, Danny may have given a trade a shot before the season started if the right deal was available (eg. Ray for Rip & Prince) but, I don’t think he does it mid-season.

Sometimes ppl get too caught up in the here and now, without focusing on the big picture for the C’s. It’s championship or bust for the team. No one will ever remember what happened in Nov. in 2015 if the C’s make it to the Finals and win.

As a Laker fan I fear the C’s coming out of the East especially if you guys have home court, (It would be an ultra series) but if you guys move Ray, I think it eliminates the C’s as a real threat to come out of the East.

opppps my bad it’s too early in the season to trade anyone what i belive would be nice is that if doc can manage his substitutions much better if any or all of the big three plays poorly in a game then bench him and let your bench players step up, what’s the use of a deep bench if you’re not gonna maximize them whoever plays well that night gets his minutes if he is in a slump then don’t force the issue there is enough room to sit on the bench.

If we could work with a team like SacTown and we send over TA and RayRay for Martin and Nicioni.

One aspect of all trade discussions that seems to get discarded, is something vital to winning basketball, team chemistry. I realize some of the Ray talk has an eye on the future, but if Danny at all believes it is possible to win this year, he is just not going to do it. The right fit of players is crucial to a winning formula. They just spoke on Comcast tonight in fact about how Ray has had to adjust the most, not have plays run for him etc. and this is his 3rd year with the team!

How would that process go for whomever else they brought in, especially not a full season? People are so enamored of this guy or that guy because of either the stats they put up or their individual game. Ray is a class act, has proven unselfish, has tried to fit in with the other stars, and it is still a work in progress.. Who’s to say anyone else brought in would be able to replicate fitting in with KG, Pierce and the rest? The mix is just as important, if not more, than the collection of individuals. Trading Ray this year, would be tantamount to saying the Celtics are not trying to win it all this year.

was a great player in 1990, even with his feet held together with pins and bailing wire. But they still should have traded him.

If you want to dig a hole in the sand and stick your head into it, be my guest.

You can’t compare a hobbled McHale to Ray Allen right now. That’s just apples and oranges.

We’ve got a veteran team and it’s November, ya’ll didn’t expect them to run the table right?

Truth be told, we’d be better off letting him expire, re-sign him cheaply, and add another piece with the extra cap space. Like Elrod wrote on realgm, as Rondo comes into his own, this team will continue to contend with the current starting lineup. His youth balances the aging Big 3, I really think RR is that good.

I’d say let good things cometo those whowait. keep the team together this yr. just trade bs, ta, and jrg.

So keep them together. Just don’t expect to win a championship. In fact, I wouldn’t be counting on a finals appearance.

I’m just hoping they can eke out a win against the Sixers tomorrow.

It’s too early to be pessimistic. they still have a good chance to prove u wrong. still early in season. we haven’t even given this team that chance. Kg is healthy this yr. make the rebuilding decision next year.

We’re all nervous about Ray and KG and Rondo’s free throws and Rasheed’s brick throwing, but they still have the best combination of starters, bench, coaching, home court crowd of any team in the league. You’re beginning to sound like Hanzinho but I know you are a lot older.