Doc Shares Lessons Learned
by Jeff Clark on Feb 2, 2009 10:06 AM EST
in Boston Celtics News & Links
Email
PrintNice story in SI on three winning coaches that are former players, including Doc Rivers.
"You can't coach to the way the GM wants you to coach, you can't coach to the way the fans want you to do it, you can't change your style because of criticism,'' Rivers said. "You've just got to stick with what you do and what you believe in, and if it's good enough, it's good enough. And if it's not, you'll find that out too.
"You learn that you change from experience. But you don't change your personality or who you are.''
This is as good a conversation topic as we can hope for today. What are your opinions on Doc? Have those opinions changed in the last 2 years?
25 comments
|
Do you like this story?
Comments
Doc is a very good fit for this team
I’ve had my share of problems with Doc, but one thing that he is is a good locker room leader. He’s good at fostering chemistry and at getting players to put the team first. For this particular team, skills like that are much more important than getting the rotations exactly right or calling time outs at the exact right moment.
From time to time, Doc still has spotty patches. He wasn’t very good in the playoffs against Atlanta, but got better as time went on. He tends to favor veterans over young guys, and seems to play favorites from time to time (Sam Cassell in the playoffs last year). The four- and five-man bench units are infuriating (although he’s been integrating the starters in with the bench more lately). However, on balance, he’s a nice fit for this team. That’s a huge evolution from where I was two years ago.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Cosign
That’s just about a spot-on explanation of the gamut of sentiment I’ve run with Doc as well.
Well put, RH.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 2, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Backhanded compliment?
I really despise the whole sentiment that “for this team” Doc is OK, he is a people manager, etc. It all implies that he really doesn’t know much about basketball, but he sure knows how to stay out his stars’ way. Doc is very smart, was a point guard, played for some of the best coaches in the NBA and the point guard is the coach on the floor. Much like catchers often make good managers, point guards have to think the game like a coach, thus, many ultimately become coaches. I guarantee that Doc knows more about basketball than anyone on this site.
All the points you highlight as faults, that are not so important because the talent is so great and he can mess up and still not have it affect the bottom line, all presuppose that what you think he should do is clearly better than what he has done. How in the world do you presume to be qualified to criticize who he favors, the infuriating 4 and 5 man bench units, etc. as spotty? You are making an awfully big assumption, that how you think those things should be managed would actually work. We’re talking about a guy who has played both collegiately and professionally at the hardest position to play, been around the pro game for years, has a feel for players and the game versus someone who watches the games on TV.
Is Doc perfect and without fault in every decision he makes? Clearly not. Neither are the “elite” coaches listed here, yet from afar, so much respect is afforded them. Phil Jackson makes all sorts of “seemingly” curious decisions within each game. I say seemingly, because without being in the locker room, knowing what is up for each guy that particular day, etc. we as fans don’t really have all the information, so from afar to say one should have done this, or should have done that, is so misinformed. Anyone can have an opinion of course, but an informed opinion is something else. Doc doesn’t and shouldn’t have to explain each and every one of his in game decisions, I don’t agree with every single one either, but neither do I presume that my choice would be clearly superior to his.
i was never a big doc fan, but i do admire him a whole lot. his biggest asset is his integrity and conviction or is it stubborness? he did develop the younger players and made them conform to his system, a tougher job with pp, but that too. pp conforming says more about pp than doc, i think. the big 3 says more about danny than doc, but he has a seamless big 3 that adapts to the game. he’s obviously a big factor in rondo’s success, which is even underrated. my gripes now are small- more time for gabe, a bit more for pob, getting eddie off the 1 and more at the 2, getting more action on the secondary break. maybe, giving the big 3 more rest. the team needs a big player deperately, but that is on danny. if that does not happen doc needs pob more than he realizes. his main job is to have this team playoff ready and sharp. good luck doc
He has won my respect, even though I still have misgivings.
That’s what I would have voted for in an even more detailed poll. In other words, I agree with Roy.
nobody is perfect
so yes, I agree that he still has his faults, but like Roy said, he’s a great fit for this team
I think I was excited about him early on, supported him through the early rough patch with Paul, then I turned on him during the really hard years when I felt like he was mismanaging the young players, and of course I’ve come back around on him since the team started winning – I’m a fickle fan and I’m not afraid to admit it ;)
"Would I rather be feared or loved? Easy. Both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." Michael Scott
i think the choice
“we won despite him” (they won despite him?) – is a bit hard.
My personal feelings are he’s not an elite coaching talent, but he’s good enough with the right team. then again – I don’t know who i consider elite, so maybe I’m just too hard.
"I don't know who I consider elite..."
I think this is an interesting point, Brendan, because especially in the NBA, it’s hard to tell at times how much of an impact coaching has. Easy to get into that chicken-and-egg debate of “Is he only good/bad because of his players, or are his players over/underachieving because of him?”
That said, I agree with your “not elite but good enough to win” sentiment. I’ll venture a few active names that come to my mind right away as “elite coaching talent” – certainly not intended as a complete list and up for debate without a doubt – Pop, Jax, Sloan, Larry Brown. Thoughts?
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 2, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
everyone falls short of Red
what is left to debate? :)
"Would I rather be feared or loved? Easy. Both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." Michael Scott
no arguments with that
game, set and match. :-D
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 2, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Right man for the job!
Supported him from the beginning, still support him now. Can’t imagine anyone doing better with this group. Agree with Roy, perfect fit for this team. Still reminds me of KC, in the way he runs the team and the bench.
Nope, always liked him
I was very happy when Ainge signed him. Always liked what he was doing. Always found some criticism (not all) he gets hilarious (and still do). Interesting article
By the way, am I the only one who can’t access to the forum? Anyone else having troubles?
I’m having problems too. And I’m with you in all your other points.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 2, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
not sure what happened
perhaps a server maintenance blip – if it happens again, let me know
"Would I rather be feared or loved? Easy. Both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." Michael Scott
interesting poll results
about half of CelticsBlog readers have learned to love Doc and he currently has what appears to be an 87% approval rating
"Would I rather be feared or loved? Easy. Both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." Michael Scott
Other
sw – it really is a mystery with coaching. Even Hall of Fame coaching and Hall of Fame talent sometimes doesn’t work – see Jax and his Malone Payton Bryant O’Neal Lakers.
It’s hard to finger where Doc is as a coach for history. But he is definetly the Coach of this team. His players always loved him, even in the down years (save a LaFrentz grumble or a Get Buckets tirade).
Most good sports movies involve a coach who is loved by his players, so I’m signed up with this guy, because its been a pretty damn good movie so far.
by newyorkceltics on Feb 2, 2009 12:02 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I was impressed
with the way the Celtics came out of the gates last season. I really expected them to struggle for a while while they gelled as a unit. They didn’t, and I think a fair chunk of the credit goes to Doc and his ubuntu magic. It worked well.
I still think another coach could’ve gotten more out of the pre-trade celtics teams (and even had a slightly easier time in the playoffs with the post trade team), but he is the right coach for this team, and he would have the job for as long as he’d like if I were in charge.
Not good with young talent
Doc has been great with a veteran team; but he has not shown that he is able to develop young talent. He has wonderful assistants, but when it comes to guards, Rondo is the exception not the rule.
His game management philosophy is pretty hands off. This was painful to watch three years ago. Even today he sometimes “trusts the players” to work things out on the fly rather that give them a change to talk things over. Tibbs is the key on defense and the offense has shown a lot more with veteran players to implement it; but if he was such a great coach he could have done more with less. Instead,he did not trust the younger players and only gave them 1/2 the playbook. Watching Celtics before new Big Three and before Rondo was agonizing. So his trust issues can get in the way; but good guy. Got to like his manner and good humor.
My humble opinion
Apologies for being a bit of a nublet, but I really haven’t seen much NBA yet. Been following it since the beginning of last season. After seeing one game (Boston vs I dunno who) I immediately picked Boston as my fave team due to the defensive mindedness, the characters on the bench and how well they seemed to glue together.
I picked the right side from game no.1 on :)
That said, Doc seems like a good coach, but I don’t think I can judge him just yet. Thing is: he has some great players in the big three, and the real question is: would other coaches have gotten the same attitude out of those three? To speak in Doc’s words: “I don’t know. I honestly don’t know.”
What I do know, is that I like the interviews he’s given. He seems to have his head on his shoulders, not up in the clouds, always being realistic, whether they’re down or up, whether he’s enduring a bit of hardship or riding a winning streak. I like that. But until I’ve seen him turn poo into gold, I can’t tell you he’s a great coach.
Right now, to me, he’s someone that’s very proficient at polishing a raw diamond.
Or three.
(okay, maybe four.)
- Dirk
Interesting point about the interviews, Dirk
even more than the winning, they seem to make me feel guiltiest about my past frustrations with him. I watch him talk and end up thinking, “He just seems like such a good guy…” Of course, that’s not how coaches are judged, but as you’ve said, it’s nice to see that he always does seem to have his head n his shoulders.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 2, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
Rivers is what he is. He’s a mediocre technical coach but his people skills are good and he doesn’t let his ego get in the way of delegating to Thibodeau and the other assistants.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Rick Fox isn’t here for the right reasons
- A shameless businessman wants to trademark “Linsanity”
- Video: NBA players give their Valentine’s advice
- Chicago’s owner sees an unfortunate comparison between Derrick Rose and Michael Jordan
- Another day of a combination of Jeremy Lin’s last name and mental instability
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
