Tony Allen - The Debate Continues
by Jeff Clark on Feb 5, 2009 9:08 AM EST
in News/Links
54 comments
Scott Souza sums it up nicely.
Want to start a spirited debate among Celtics fans?
Topic: Tony Allen. Ideal sixth man and shutdown defender, or maddeningly frustrating player perennially overrated by management and coaches?
Discuss.
Grab the popcorn, sit back, and enjoy.
Lets put it to a vote! (I understand that he's a little of both, but go ahead and chose the one that fits your opinion of him better than the other)
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TA
TA will prove himself today, when he shuts down Kobe!!
by Huh on Feb 5, 2009 9:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
obviously a little bit of both
he is a good defender and he CAN be a good spark off the bench, but he’s more “maddeningly frustrating” and sometimes overrated
I think his biggest problem has always been mental focus, and that’s not something you can really teach
I just hope Doc can pick up on when he’s having a bad game and sub in Gabe for him when he’s “off”
"Would I rather be feared or loved? Easy. Both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." Michael Scott
by Jeff Clark on Feb 5, 2009 9:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
"mental focus...not something you can really teach"
This is a very important point of the TA discussion. Well put by our captain.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 5, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and I should clarify
that I meant the captain of our ship here at CB.
Pierce has said nothing of the sort, to my knowledge.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 5, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Suggest Change In Poll Question
1. good
2. change to “maddingly frustrating player” (I would delete the part about management because we don’t know what they really think).
3. ? to the effect that he will eventually become the player we want him to be.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
by TrueGreen on Feb 5, 2009 9:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Maddingly Frustrating
We have seen Tony play well when he slows down and doesn’t try to think or do things that he’s not capable of. Doc has repeatedly said that TA needs to go straight line to the basket period. I also don’t think he’s been that shutdown defender. I actually think Scals is a better shutdown defender than TA. When he’s good he’s really good. If he can just become consistent he will be a valuable asset to this team. Right now I see no harm in keeping him and play him on good days and sit him on bad days. At some point we will need to fish or cut bait. If there is a quality player available today and TA is needed to complete a deal I would send him off to another situation.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
by TrueGreen on Feb 5, 2009 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Choices are not fair
His inconsistency is maddeningly frustrating. But I don’t think he is overrated at all. When he’s good, he’s actually good. Management and Coaches always talk about how good he can be. They don’t say he is an all-star.
by afflatus on Feb 5, 2009 9:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
just roll with it
I’m using Scott’s options for the sake of his argument.
just pick the one that better fits your opinion even if it isn’t perfect
"Would I rather be feared or loved? Easy. Both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." Michael Scott
by Jeff Clark on Feb 5, 2009 9:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
8th man
Tony is a good player, but I think we are asking him to do too much.
1. Lead the second unit
2. Defend the best wing player
3. score and Make plays to eddie house
I am not sure which one is worst, Tony losing control on a drive, or Eddie no hitting his shots.
Each one of these guys is gonna have a bad night, hell Eddie has been useless the last couple days.
by aboubata on Feb 5, 2009 9:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Eddie vs TA
I think Eddie’s basketball IQ is greater than TA’s and even if he’s not hitting shots he still does things that need to be done. TA is so much more than athletic than Eddie, but Eddie, overall is more consistent. Just take the last play against Philly. Eddie was in and not TA. It was because he spreads the floor, which TA doesn’t and he made a perfect pick to clear Pierce to get the ball originally. I don’t know if we could have relied on TA to make that pick. That was a play drawn up on the spot. Eddie would understand his part in the play immediately. I’m not sure TA would. Therefore, in a tough situation if my choices were Eddie or TA I would take Eddie every time.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
by TrueGreen on Feb 5, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Eddie has been useless since TA came back
He was useful playing next to Rondo or Pruitt. Not next to TA.
by Wide Load on Feb 5, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Inconsistant and a bad fit.
Replace him with Pruitt. At least that way, the Celtics get an effective House.
by Wide Load on Feb 5, 2009 9:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
People should stop buying into the Pruitt as a PG delusion as far as this season goes. Remember when Tony first came back? House was on fire that game too. As soon as we accept who House is, the better we can move forward with this discussion. The perimeter defense, overall, has been better against us the last few games while the perimeter defense during the games about 5 games ago was attrocious. Also, even with Tony in there, House has been playing mostly off the ball… Pierce, Ray, and even Tony are the ones handling the rock.
Tony has been playing some good basketball since he came back, at times quite vital in our wins.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 5, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pruitt might not be a PG, but he allows House to be a SG
That’s the key difference. Pruitt can take the PG duties and get the ball in the hands of Pierce or Ray or KG to create.
That frees up House to just worry about getting open, catching and shooting.
With TA, House has to do that which takes away from his ability to find the open shots and get set to shoot.
by Wide Load on Feb 5, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As I said, House is not really playing PG. TA, Ray, and Pierce are doing the ball handling. House is playing a ton off the ball at the moment.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 5, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But he is with TA
Watch who is in charge of getting the ball up the court and starting the offense. It is House.
When TA was out, Pruitt or Rondo were the players doing it while House was in the game.
by Wide Load on Feb 5, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pierce, Ray, and TA are bringing the ball up quite frequently. Was TA on the floor against Orlando? Was TA on the floor against Phoenix? Against Cleveland? Against Houston? No. And House had bad shooting nights. Who are the rest of the opponents? Toronto and New Jersey? Yeah, both suck. Who else… Miami? That was a nice display of shooting, so all the credit in the world goes to him. Then there’s Dallas… and that game was a joke, and their defense an even bigger joke.
So we have him having an outburst against Miami and Dallas, Dallas being a joke of a game. Then there’s his best performance of the season against Sacramento…hmm, wha’ts this? Yeah, with TA on the floor.
Then we go against Detroit, who can play some good defense. Then we play the Wolves, who were the hottest team in January. Then we play Philadelphia who have been playing better as of late and can play some good perimeter defense. All of this without Scalabrine (who’s emergence coincided with House shooting better than earlier in the season) and without Garnett a great facilitator who can at times bring in double teams in the low post.
There’s really a lack of perspective here.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 5, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Then why did he have his best month this season when TA went out and Pruitt was playing?
And why when that happened, both his assists and turnovers dropped?
Why? Because the ball was taken out of his hand and put in Pruitt’s hand.
by Wide Load on Feb 5, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you even reading, analyzing what I just wrote? And funny thing… since TA returned, Eddie has ZERO turnovers and TWO total assists… so that theory of yours isn’t working well.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 5, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
6th man? no...
Tony is far from an ideal sixth man.
In fact, he has never played very well coming off the bench.
From starting over Ricky D as a rookie to playing out of his mind as the 1option during that putrid 18 game losing streak, Tony has shown he is a better player when he is asked to do more, because when he is asked to just fill a roll he tries to do it all anyway.
by dead dog aids on Feb 5, 2009 9:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The two choices are a little extreme
I wouldn’t say he’s the ideal 6th man, but he definitely serves a purpose on this team and fills a role that no one else on the 2nd unit can.
by CelticsWhat35 on Feb 5, 2009 10:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
tony is tony being tony and we live and die with him. very good posts here about what we get from tony and eddie. iam hoping we get some more of the old leon.
by nazzbo on Feb 5, 2009 10:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tony Allen is...
garbage.
God bless and good night!
by BrickJames on Feb 5, 2009 10:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
...but he has a contract!
Just messin’ with ya, Brick. Couldn’t resist that one, sorry. :-D
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 5, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
solid 8th man is a good option
He’s too inconsistent and dumb to be a good 6th man, let alone the ideal one. I don’t think management and coaches overrate him, he got a $5 million/2 year salary and averages less than 20 mpg, including plenty of garbage time minutes.
by cordobes on Feb 5, 2009 10:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Can we stop calling him dumb?
Really, it’s not a question of intelligence, it’s a question of focus with Tony. TA’s BBIQ is above average, but he tends to lose focus from time to time.
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Feb 5, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what indication is there of his BBIQ being above average?
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 5, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Xs and Os, Steve-O
TA had no problems picking up the offensive and defensive schemes, unlike some others in recent memory (Powe, Giddens, etc…). His problems stem from not staying within himself and trying to do TOO much, not because he doesn’t know WHAT to do or HOW to do it. Mr. BBIQ himself, Scalabrine, suffers from the same disease of trying to do too much.
I also think it’s completely incorrect to say that mental focus cannot be taught. A majority of what passes for education in this country is the attempt to teach children to focus on the task at hand. What can’t be taught is natural talent.
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Feb 5, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what I maintain here, however, is that
it may well be just as difficult (if not impossible) for TA to focus (if that’s the problem) as it is for someone without his level of natural athleticism to pick up that athleticism.
Too often, I think that we fall into that trap of believing that will natural talent isn’t fixable, someone who has it “just needs to focus more” with the operative word there being “just” as though it’s a trait that requires less. I’m not sure that’s the case for everyone.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 5, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're Right, To a Degree
The ability to focus at a high level is a talent in and of itself. But unlike, say, jumping ability, it can also be improved through repetition and good coaching.
To me, a lot of TA’s ‘focus’ problem is a confidence problem related to his injury history. When he doesn’t have confidence in his body (like recently in December when he was struggling with the ankle injury which eventually cost him 11 games), he tends to lose focus. To that end, if TA can remain relatively injury-free the rest of the season, I think the TA debate will slowly fade into the background…
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Feb 5, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you're right about that last part
if he starts playing consistent(-ly good) basketball, you’ll hear no complaints from me. :-D
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Feb 5, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...
… what games are the 29% of you in the minority watching? ;-)
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
by Roy_Hobbs on Feb 5, 2009 10:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
somewhere in the middle
i don’t know if using too polar opposite statements is an effective way to set up a poll.
he is a strong if inconsistent wing defender, his tendency to bite on head fakes can make him look real bad at times. he has great lateral quickness, is an outstanding shot blocker for his position, and plays competently within the team help schemes.
offensively his game never seemed to fully develop post injury…that said aside from pierce he is the best celtic when it comes to attacking the rim. his ball handling mistakes have decreased markedly this season as well.
i understand that it could be time to fish or cut bait; but, imo, we could do a lot worse then ta.
by radja9697 on Feb 5, 2009 10:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
talk about a false dilemma....
How about a little middle ground here, Jeff. Obviously he doesn’t quite fit into either extreme. Not worth voting on as currently posed.
by footey on Feb 5, 2009 10:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just vote for the first option to balance things up a bit.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 5, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can't we have a choice in between ideal and horrible?
He’s somewhere in the middle. Not as bad as many think.
by moiso on Feb 5, 2009 11:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Silly Poll
TA is somewhere in-between. He’s definitely a rotation player who does good things. Goes to the rack, defends, decent free throw shooter. If his jumper is working, he can be extremely effective.
He has his bad nights too, although the turnovers have come down recently.
by Brickowski on Feb 5, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Turnovers coming down
Really? Or are you just making that up? What’s recently?
Turnovers per 36 minutes:
career – 2.7
last season – 2.9
current season – 3.1
since coming back from the last injury – 3.5
last game (extrapolation) – 7.7 (3 in 14 minutes)
Unless you have a very convenient definition of “recently”, I’m not seeing that at all.
If there’s one thing Tony is reliable is turning over the ball.
by cordobes on Feb 5, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in the middle
not ideal 6th man, not a complete waste either but definitely frustratingly inconsistant.
by slamtheking on Feb 5, 2009 11:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
you guys are no fun
you mean you don’t like taking extreme viewpoints and defending them to the death?
who are you and what have you done with the CelticsBlog commenters?
"Would I rather be feared or loved? Easy. Both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." Michael Scott
by Jeff Clark on Feb 5, 2009 11:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
back now
Oh . . . we were just over stirring up trouble at lakersnation and forumblueandgold. (jk)
by Thruthelookingglass on Feb 5, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with some of the points made above...
He should concentrate on D and get some fastbreak opportunities and he is pretty good at that…
in a half court set however…. he struggles against the better defensive teams when the defenders take charges on him….
cant believe doc is encouraging him to “drive drive drive and drive” …. darn!
by hiro on Feb 5, 2009 11:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Those are the only 2 options...
That’s the problem in the first place. Fans overestimate and then put down when the player doesn’t reach that expectation.
TA provides slashing and defense while the occasional brain fart.
'We circle all the games' - KG
by Birdbrain on Feb 5, 2009 11:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Trade...
TA for Marcus Camby straight up.
by loverofceltics on Feb 5, 2009 12:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
thinking about tony the question arises, who’s better- tony or ariza? who’s more important to their team? iv’e always liked ariza but have not seen as much of him so i give tony the nod.
by nazzbo on Feb 5, 2009 12:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
tony allen
is utterly worthless. watch when he turns the ball over 4 times a game come playoff time.
by stingy d on Feb 5, 2009 2:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not really a big sample since he didn’t play constantly, but during the playoffs last year, in 65 minutes played he only turned the ball over 1 time.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 5, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mental focus can be taught, but brain cells are fixed
You can teach a guy to focus on a few simple things… key word is simple. As Doc said, that’s what he’s been telling TA to do – keep it simple, drive straight to the hoop, get fouled and/or score. Do NOT try to pass fancy, do NOT try to be Rondo, do NOT think beyond your job. All that can be taught, or drilled in, and TA does have very good physical skills. He will never get any smarter than he is, and will therefore always be limited. But in his clearly-defined limited role, he can be very valuable.
Many of us have been saying that what we really need is a backup big. But if you think about it, we’ve been doing alright without one, even when Perk went down. We even win without KG. But if we lost Rondo (yikes!), we’d be royally screwed. Funny how it has turned out, but Rondo seems to be the one almost-indispensable part of the team.
by DRJ1 on Feb 5, 2009 3:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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