Difference-Maker Role Becoming Norm For Mo
by Steve Weinman on Mar 10, 2009 1:00 PM EDT
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Stealing the show in one LeBron-Wade match-up last week wasn't enough for Mo Williams.
When the Cavs visited Miami last Monday, Williams came up with 17 points in the fourth quarter and spurred a 12-0 run to help the Cavs overcome an 11-point deficit.
On Saturday night, he turned up the heat in the final period once more. After Miami cut a 14-point deficit to six, Williams took control, He hit a beautiful teardrop in transition, drove for a lay-up and then drained a three for seven straight points to extend the lead back to 13. He wound up scoring all 11 Cavs points over a 4:36 span and 12 for the quarter. That included another smooth teardrop that the hometown announcers gleefully called the "Mo flo."
When the final gun sounded, Williams led all scorers with 29 points on 10-for-15 shooting that featured a 6-for-7 effort on three-pointers, and the Cavs walked away with a 10-point win.
While Williams hasn't shot hit with quite that level of accuracy all season, he has spent his maiden campaign in Cleveland playing the role of X-factor to perfection.
Playing the Robin to LeBron James' Batman, Williams has been everything the oft-ballyhooed (and later maligned) Larry Hughes was once expected to be in the Cleveland backcourt.
Williams' presence provides a ball-handler who also serves as a secondary scorer. He is quick off the dribble and goes to the basket hard. That teardrop "Mo flo" looks increasingly effective as the year goes on.
But Williams doesn't stop at scoring 17.8 points per game on 47.4 percent shooting from the field. His outside shooting effectiveness has jumped for the second straight season, and Williams is hitting a career high 42.7 percent from the field. He takes big shots without fear. As demonstrated twice over the last week, Williams won't hesitate to take control when the Cavs need a spark. Defenses can't bail themselves out by fouling him either as he is no liability at the line: Williams shoots 93.7 percent from the foul line and has missed from there exactly 11 times this season.
The point guard is putting up a 59.2 percent true shooting mark, a figure well better than the Cavs could have hoped for even in their wildest dreams. He has no difficulty handling the ball and currently dishes out 4.1 assists per game. Williams' contributions this season have been integral toward improving the Cavs' offense from 20th in efficiency a season ago to third this year. The concerns about his defensive deficiencies haven't bitten this team either as the Cavs sit second in that department.
This Cavs team is more dangerous than ever before. Short of LeBron, Mo Williams is one of the biggest reasons why. Credit Danny Ferry for a trade well made last summer.
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Great Article as always BUT...
I was really looking forward to reading a Dwayne Wade love fest by you today! His performance last night against the Bulls has to rank up there with some of the great individual performances of all time. I haven’t had that much fun watching a basketball game ever…I was almost jealous of Miami Heat fans.
SCOTT
Yes, we're working our way toward a Flash love article sooner or later
He’s been absolutely insane the last few weeks – and certainly, last night’s finish was unbelievable.
Meanwhile, almost as much of the story last night for me was my couple of buddies who are Bulls fans texting me through the evening to gripe about VDN’s inability to, you know, run an offensive set.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Mar 10, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel for your buddies Steve...
Nothing has been more baffling to me this year then the fact that VDN is still employed.
SCOTT
Quoting from a text last night...
“Just horrible. Embarrassing, sad and hilarious all at the same time. What a team.”
Don’t feel too charitable, Scott. They were in better moods in the ’90s.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Mar 10, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he's been good for Cleveland...
…or some other reason for your distaste, Bankshot?
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Mar 10, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Was never a fan, even before Cleveland.
But yeah, can’t stand him even more now that he’s a Cav. Thinks he a LOT better than he really is.
Will Choke
He’ll Choke in the Playoffs along with the rest of the Scubs on that Cavs team and lebron will have to go 1 on 5 for the whole 4th quarter of game 7….
With all due respect...
The league, coaches, players, fans and media seem to think he’s pretty good too…are you telling me everyone is wrong?
SCOTT
That doesn't mean he doesn't think
he’s better than he really is. I think he’s good too, but I don’t think he’s an all-star. Remember him balking at not initially making the all-star team? What does that say about him when he’s openly saying he deserves to be there over some players that were selected? That being said, like I said before, I didn’t like him even before he was a Cav.
Let's see...
Let’s see Mo do something in the playoffs.
He just did...lol
He just dropped 26 against him…and trust me I’m not looking to turn this into a Williams vs Rondo debate…because I’ll take Rondo over him all day…but Mo Williams is legit.
SCOTT
Isn't that the game
that Rondo played hurt though?
with 2 Assists
You could have 100 and not be a difference maker.
Those 26 don’t mean nothing. and I would take them over 8 Assist from Alston.
http://www.nba.com/games/20090306/CLEBOS/boxscore.html
-14, wow.
26 On Rondo
The only reason Mo scored 26 was because Rondo was hobble for 3.5 quarters. No one ever goes off against Rondo, I think those 26 points are the most he’s let an opposing PG get all year, which is fantastic considering the depth of talent in the PG pool.
Minor details Bankshot...minor details!
No I mean that’s why I wanted to clarify that in no way was I making this a Rondo vs Williams debate, however injured or not we just saw Williams look pretty dang good in a game which Rondo did play over 30 minutes…so I just found that comment rather humorous…I would take Rondo in a heartbeat over him though, but Mo deserves respect for how he’s played this year.
SCOTT
He's a great fit
playing next to a point-forward like LeBron James and a combo guard like West.
I think in terms of skill-set, he’s not better than he was last season (except in terms of providing a more consistent defensive effort). Just shows how important for certain players is the situation they land in.
I’m not exactly surprised by how he helped the Cavs on the offensive end, but I had hopes he’d hurt them more defensively; it’s amazing how well they’ve been able to hide him.
"Just shows how important for certain players is the situation they land in"
Yes yes yes yes yes.
I would probably go even beyond “certain” players – context plays an enormous role for many of these guys. It’s the team sport concept at work. But beyond that nitpicky-ness, agreed with everything you said, cordobes.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Mar 10, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Mo Williams is a below average starting point guard …. nevermind an All-Star caliber player.
He should thank his lucky stars that he landed in Cleveland because he’s a liability on 80% of the teams in this league, and wasn’t far off being demoted back onto that bench to resume his old 6th man role.
Ahh...what?
Guys at least have the courtesy to look up the guys career numbers before we make the worst argument alive in the NBA “he’s good because of the team he plays for.” Remember, that’s the same ridiculous argument most haters make against Rondo. Plus its always the exact opposite. Anyway, Mo Williams didn’t just become good people. This is his 3rd straight season of “almost all star numbers.” So when he was putting up almost identical numbers for the powerhouse that is the Milwaukee Bucks, what would be your excuse for that?? By the way, here’s the link to his stats:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/maurice_williams/career_stats.html
SCOTT
I think the key word on his comment
is “point-guard”.
Of course Mo Williams can put up great numbers. He can shoot the rock and run a pick’n’roll to get some assists. However, what he can’t do is to control the offence of a team or defend the opponent point-of-attack. That’s why – I suppose – Who said that he’d be a liability on 80% of the teams in the league. I tend to agree. Numbers don’t tell the whole story – his years in the Bucks were good fantasy-wise but terrible for that franchise. Anyway, Cleveland is a perfect place for him – he gets his numbers and has other guys to run the offence.
Haha Cordobes so...
Mo Williams gets the blame for the lack of winning in Milwaukee but is the benefactor of a great situation in Cleveland…I see…and you wouldn’t call this hating?
When all the stars align and Mo Williams gets in a situation where you won’t judge him unfairly…please let me know…but your sounding hypocritical and unfair by saying that he’s lucky to be in Cleveland on a winning team and then blaming him for the Bucks problems…the Bucks have been bad for a while…lets get real.
Just for the record, his “role” has nothing to do with my argument. I never said anything about how he plays, just that he’s a very good player. You either get it done or you don’t, doesn’t matter how…Mo Williams gets it done.
SCOTT
Well...
.. Who explains pretty well my thoughts on this issue, see bellow (although I probably appreciate Mo more than him).
As I said in my first comment I’m not exactly surprised by how he helped the Cavs on the offensive end and just shows how important for certain players is the situation they land in..
I’m not blaming Mo for the lack of winning in Milwaukee, although it was clear they had to move him or play him in a different role, as a combo guard off the bench. It’s just that he can’t be the PG of a team that expects him to control the tempo, distribute the ball, facilitate the offence, get the ball to his scorers, etc. The Bucks offences with Mo at the point in the last seasons were basically Mo dribbling and shooting and Redd dribbling and shooting, depending on who would get the ball first. The other guys would take lots of bad shots because they’d never pass the ball back to Mo or Redd (because they’d never touch it again). So yeah, in that role, he was a disaster. He has a great mid-range shoot, he can run the pick-and-roll decently, he’s a great threat from the outside, but he’s not very good running a team.
Just to clarify further
I don’t see this in terms of “guilty” and “benefactor”. It’s just players like Mo are good fits when surrounded with certain guys but quite useless when surrounded by a different kind of players. Not unusual at all.
Yep, I meant what Cordobes thought I meant.
Mo Williams is a scoring point guard. He’s a below par playmaker, a below par passer, a poor decision maker and an awful floor general. Williams has no idea how to run an offense and regularly ostracizes his teammates — some of his teammates in Milwaukee could go minutes without seeing the ball, Milwaukee would end up playing 3-on-5 basketball because Mo couldn’t get anyone else going, and players regularly failed to get the ball in effective positions forcing them to take more difficult shots. There were also many, many instances of Mo Williams not passing to Michael Redd in the final minutes of games for no other reason than he wanted to take the shot and be the hero. There’s also the whole Bogut/Villanueva situations too, who Mo consistently failed to take advantage of.
Basically he’s a below average offensive player when the playing the point guard position with the exception of one instance — when he’s teamed with a top playmaker on the wing — because his weaknesses make it impossible for his team to have a cohesive offense otherwise.
That leaves the following teams where Mo Williams can be an effective starting point guard — Atlanta, Boston, Cleveland, Houston (when Tracy is healthy), Lakers, Miami, New Jersey, Orlando, San Antonio, and Portland — okay that’s 10 teams, so I’ll adjust that 80% down to 67% …. for two thirds of the league Mo Williams is a liability as a starting point guard because of his offensive game.
————————————————————————————————————————-
This is before I ever mention the word defense — and Mo Williams has been an awful defensive player prior to landing in Cleveland, although I must admit he has improved and I’ll now refer to him as a poor defender instead of an awful one.
By the way, the fact Mo Williams has improved is a testament to Mike Brown’s defensive genious, the man is simply amazing on that side of the court, there’s nobody better. I seriously doubt Mo puts forth the defensive performances he has been giving if not for Mike Brown.
Point Guards who are better than Mo Williams
- Deron Williams
- Chris Paul
- Tony Parker
- Chauncey Billups
- Rajon Rondo
- Andre Miller
- Baron Davis
- Gilbert Arenas
- Jameer Nelson
- Jason Kidd
- Rodney Stuckey
- TJ Ford
- Devin Harris
- Russell Westbrook
- Derrick Rose
- Jose Calderon
I’d also make a note of Mike Bibby — Bibby was awful for the previous three seasons but he’s had a renaissance this year, and is the single most important reason for Atlanta’s improvement. The Bibby of this season is also better than Mo Williams.
I’d also prefer point guards like Kirk Hinrich, Derek Fisher, Raymond Felton, Chris Duhon, Rafer Alston, Steve Blake, and Mario Chalmers over Mo Williams in most instances with the exception of the ten teams I listed above (two thirds of the league). Monta Ellis is another player who I would prefer to have as a point guard for my team.
To repeat my initial thought — Mo Williams is a below average starter at his position, nevermind an All-Star caliber player.
TP's 4 Life
You will get a TP from me every time I see you.
by davemonsterband on Mar 11, 2009 7:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok some thoughts...
Stuckey, Ford and Davis can come off that list immediately…Baron Davis has been a great player but he’s shooting 38% from the floor this year, I have a hard time seeing him on that list. All your “honorable mentions” are not better than Mo Williams, in any situation. I would put Mo somewhere between 10-15 on the top point guard lists in the league, so I think you need to consider that in this argument. He is not a “below average” point guard, that’s absurd. But I am not arguing he is a top 5 or even top 10 pg. He’s had a good year and he’s a good player. That’s all. the numbers back that up. He’s currently 13th in Player Efficiency Rating for pg’s, so that would infer he is not “below average.”
As for the first part of your argument, I’ve always tried to make it a habbit not to watch the bucks that closely, however it may explain why you are so bitter since it appears you did. I was merely pointing out that his numbers were basically identical, and they were. So “bad point guard, selfish player,” whatever you want to call him, he’s put up almost all star numbers for 3 year now. You will probably respond by saying numbers aren’t everything, but you and I both know that in most cases they are a big chunk of it. Try putting together a list of your top 50 players of all time, I’m sure their numbers will be very good. Numbers are not everything, but they are the most important thing in judging any sports player. Not just by fans, coaches and scouts do the same. A lot of what you just stated is opinion, I’m just going with the facts.
SCOTT
by Vegas Scott on Mar 11, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think anyone can have a firm grasp of how dependent Mo Williams truly is, on playing alongside a playmaking wing, without having watched him either in Milwaukee or Utah.
If you want a picture of how much better TJ Ford is versus Mo Williams just look at the Bucks record while TJ was injured and after he left the club, versus his two healthy seasons. On both occasions Mo Williams was the replacement and on both occasions the club bottomed out.
Mo Williams is a spectacularly flawed point guard who is dependent on having a playmaking wing like a LeBron James, having that player hides his flaws and allows him to be a successful player.
One can’t get a clear picture of how much damage Mo’s flaws cause from watching the Cavs play, because LeBron hides him.
Another Rebuttal! lol
Mo Williams is a spectacularly flawed point guard who is dependent on having a playmaking wing like a LeBron James, having that player hides his flaws and allows him to be a successful player.
I’ve already explained the clear cut counter to this argument. Mo Williams put up almost identical numbers his last 2 years in Milwaukee. Lebron James was not on that team. So if the numbers tell us he’s the same player in both situations, what does that have to do with Lebron James?
You will then probably say something to the effect that “although Mo’s numbers were the same, his team suffered.” So in essence, you are saying that Mo’s numbers in Milwaukee don’t tell the story because his team didn’t win, and Mo’s numbers don’t really count in Cleveland because he has Lebron James. I ask you, does that seem fair to you?
You then go on to say…
One can’t get a clear picture of how much damage Mo’s flaws cause from watching the Cavs play, because LeBron hides him.
I repeat, the Cavs won 45 games last year with Lebron on their team, including an almost identical supporting cast. The only real change is Mo Williams, and they have already won 50 this year. So Lebron hides the flaws of the guy who has been labeled as the major addition that has helped this team improve so dramatically?
SCOTT
These stats are taken from last season
Chauncey Billups — 17ppg – 6.8apg – 2.7rpg – 45% FG% – 40% 3FG
Mo Williams — 17.2ppg – 6.3apg – 3.5rpg – 48 FG% – 39% 3FG%
Remarkably similar stats.
Do you think both players are equal in talent and/or performance?
If both players switched teams last season, with Mo in Detroit and Chauncey in Milwaukee, would their team’s record be the same? Would one team do better? Or worse?
I would take Chauncey...
Because he had 3 other go to guys on his team. Mo was on a bad team where he was forced to do more. I think Chauncey would have more inflated stats on a less talented team. However, with that said, doesn’t your comparison only help support my argument? You’ve labled Mo a “below average” point guard, yet last year he had almost identical statistics to one of the greatest point guards of our time.
P.S. Those are just offensive numbers, so you’ve conveniently left out defense and clutch play out of your comparison. Chauncey’s edge gets a lot stronger when you factor those in. But for Mo to be in the same ball park with Chauncey, I mean again doesn’t that only strengthen my argument?
SCOTT
The above is your argument, not mine. I do not define Mo Williams by those statistics, you on the other hand seem to do so. You have given these numbers importance and argue that they make him a high level point guard, well at least I presume these are the “third straight season of borderline All-Star numbers” that you were talking about.
I thought it would be interesting to see if you differentiated Billups vs Williams, or not, to see how tied down you are to those stats. In other words, to see if you felt those statistics told you the entire story. That was why I asked the question.
——————————————————-
Those three other Pistons players averaged a combined 43 points on 37 shot attempts. The next three best scorers for Milwaukee averaged a combined 47 points on 40 shot attempts …. but Chauncey’s stats are lower because of the three other go-to-guys on his team? That doesn’t add up.
——————————————————
I labeled Mo Williams a below average starting point guard and named 18 players who I would rather have ahead of him. I regard all of those players as superior to Mo and that is why I regard him as a below average starting point guard.
Then subsequently named another seven who I would rather have ahead of Mo for two thirds of the league, but would rather Mo for the other third (the ten teams I mentioned).
My argument is that Mo Williams can only be a successful and important figure in a team when he is placed alongside a high level playmaker. When he is not placed alongside one of those playmakers, his stats are hollow, and come at a cost far greater than the value of his positive contributions — and that his team, say the Bucks, would be better off with someone like a Chris Duhon instead of Williams.
—————————————————-
But anyway, we’ve dragged that discussion to a close I think. Neither of us seems able to convince the other to change his opinion.
Just before we bring this to it’s end, out of curiosity, I have one final question — What is your opinion on Allen Iverson? How highly do you rate him?
And do you place much weight on the negatives he brings to the table?
This article disgusts me
No offense Steve, I love your work, but this is the last place I want to read about this guy, all season long, blah, blah, blah, he walked into a dream position for a PG, he’s very good, time to move on. It’s like Gasol to the Lakers, it’s the skill set in the surroundings that’s the story, not the player.
by davemonsterband on Mar 10, 2009 4:53 PM EDT reply actions
So help me out here...
You love Steve’s work (which consists of writing about the NBA as a whole, not just the Celtics) but are disgusted about a piece he wrote complimenting a player from another team who just happens to be an all star? So if that’s your stance, then wouldn’t you dislike most of his pieces? Just doesn’t make sense, sounds like you just hate Mo Williams.
Now, to get to your actual point which has kind of left me confused also.
It’s like Gasol to the Lakers, it’s the skill set in the surroundings that’s the story, not the player.
Isn’t that kind of nitpicking? So when referencing Mo Williams we can’t mention his name, we have to just refer to his skill set and situation? Maybe I’m not understand your point here, but that just seems strange. Sounds like you been sippin on that HATERADE!
SCOTT
You’re nitpicking.
1. He’s a Cav
2. We’ve been over saturated with this exact article all season long by the media, just like we were over saturated last year with how each of the big 3 are willing to take a back seat to each other for the betterment of the team, i.e., it’s not a story anymore, and at this point in the season, most of us are sick and tired of hearing about it.
3. His success was handed to him on a silver platter, like someone said above, there are a dozen PG’s in the league that would prosper going into that situation, once again, like a good passing, good hands around the basket PF like Gasol on the Lakers.
4. I’m not saying don’t mention his name literally, which is something my girlfriend would take from such a statement, I’m saying an above average PG put into his position would equally prosper, it’s no Mo WIlliams that should be heralded, it’s LBJ, Mike Brown, the system and many other factors that make Mo William an All Star. He sure as hell was nothing close to one prior to now.
5. I am downing Haterade by the keg, I hope he gets a sunburn.
by davemonsterband on Mar 11, 2009 7:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok so...
Everyone in Celeveland gets credit EXCEPT Mo Williams…interesting. Well just be careful when you use that argument, because people can turn around and say the same thing about Rondo, which would be silly. Mo isn’t doing anything different in Cleveland. He was doing the same production in Milwaukee! He’s just on a good team so he’s being recognized. When a team has a lot of success and the players on that team get recognized for it, other fans hate it. That’s how it works, and that’s how you sound now. Mo Williams is getting the credit because everyone else was there the year prior when they won a laughable 45 games…they just won their 50th this year! Why would he not get some credit for this if hes performing well?
P.S. I have a feeling your girlfriend is extremely intelligent and a great basketball mind.
SCOTT
by Vegas Scott on Mar 11, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d say the same thing about Rondo, that’s for sure. It’s allllll good, I gotsta hate.
by davemonsterband on Mar 12, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
A Question
Boston, for the most part, guards LeBron one on one. Mo Williams scored alot of points on us last game, but it was perimeter and he really wasn’t defended well. How did Miami guard LeBron and Williams. I think Williams can score if left alone, not sure he could do it if well-defended.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
I'd be lying if I said I felt terribly bad about that
plus, if you check with the scorekeepers here (hi, Slick!), you’ll find that the Daily Babble already stands accountable for two season-ending injuries to players have excellent years (Al Jefferson and Jameer Nelson), so Mo should consider himself off easy with a night that’s off a 2-for-13 start. :-D
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Mar 11, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I actually like this....
Steve you should keep this going, kind of like Gorman when he praises great free throw shooters right befor they are ready to shoot…then clang! When is your Kobe piece coming? Haha…
SCOTT
by Vegas Scott on Mar 11, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
he’s a good player no doubt but his pouting and whining about not being an all star really turned me off to the guy. I really don’t think he’s as good as he thinks he is. I think he gets a ton of open shots playing alongside LeBron and that if opposing teams wanted to shut him down they could. Rondo gambles too much on D and plays behind his man too much. I would love to see him stay in front of his man for 48 minutes. I really think that if Rondo decided he wanted to shut Mo Williams down he could.
I don’t think you guys are being fair to Mo. LeBron and Ben Wallace did the VAST majority of the complaining after Mo was snubbed from the all-star game. Mo didn’t really say anything. I have trouble figuring out why there is so much vitriol here for a player who is solid, consistent, keeps his mouth shut, and plays hard every night.
Then again, it could be because he plays for the Cavaliers. As a Cavs fan, I feel the same way about Rondo. My thought has always been “Who is Rajon Rondo without KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen?” However, I have really seen what Rondo is capable of this season while some of the other Celtics were hurt, and I am realizing that he is a solid point guard. Better than Mo Williams? I don’t know, and I don’t really care. I prefer Mo, but Rondo is a heck of a playmaker and a better defender. But Mo is not that bad of a defender either. Anyone with quickness like his has the capability to be a solid defender at the PG position and Mike Brown has managed to coax it out of him this season.
Exactly Jek29...
Then again, it could be because he plays for the Cavaliers. As a Cavs fan, I feel the same way about Rondo. My thought has always been "Who is Rajon Rondo without KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen?" However, I have really seen what Rondo is capable of this season while some of the other Celtics were hurt, and I am realizing that he is a solid point guard.
Discrediting a player because of who is around him is the oldest and lamest “hating move” by an opposing fan in the book. You cannot debate or make excuses for production. Simply because you can do this with any player in any situation. Tony Parker was quoted as saying “Rondo is overrated because of the talent he has around him.” Meanwhile he should probably hold up a mirror before he makes that comment.
Fans have discredited Kevin Durant’s amazing play this year because “he’s the whole team, therefore his numbers are a result of that.” Paul Pierce for years was hardly ever talked about as a top player in the league because he was “on a bad team.” Now many Laker fans feel that he is overrated, a product of a good team. You see the pattern here? Any time that someone judges a player on his situation rather than his production, he is simply hating.
Both Mo and Rondo do not have an easy job at all. I think it is much harder. There is a lot of pressure on a point guard who is expected to lead his team to a championship. A lot more egos are in play and the expectations are a lot higher. How would that be easier?
SCOTT
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