Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Celtics Vs. Heat Game 1: Game Time, TV Schedule And More

Minutes Madness Continues

A Daily Babble Production

If yesterday's game didn't provide the right opportunity for Doc Rivers to rest his star swingmen at the benefit of his youngsters, it's hard to imagine what will.

With their starting point guard a late addition to the ever-growing scratch list, the Celtics rolled out onto the New Garden floor a sleepy bunch on Sunday afternoon.  The Orlando Magic proceeded to wipe the floor with them in the first half, outscoring the Celtics 17-2 over a 6:30 span en route to building a 22-point lead that was cut to 18 before recess. 

During this time, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen sat for a total of less than five minutes (4:50) between them.  Rookies Bill Walker and J.R. Giddens along with second-year man Gabe Pruitt totaled 2:13 of playing time, all belonging to Pruitt. 

That was the extent of the rest for the stars and the run for the youngsters for the afternoon.  Pierce and Allen didn't sit a moment in the second half, totaling 45:23 and 45:47 of playing time respectively.

The second half, I can understand to an extent.  The Celtics made a big run in the fourth quarter and gave themselves a legitimate shot to pull the game out, cutting the lead as low as three and getting Ray Allen a look at a potential game-tying shot from the left corner in the final minute.  With such a small margin for error in the second half, one can understand Doc Rivers' reluctance to pull Pierce or Allen from the floor once the team made a concerted push to get back in the game.

All that is arguable.  Especially considering the Celtics' current injury situation, perhaps Rivers would be best served to pull the reins in on Allen and Pierce even in the latter stages of games.  Perhaps risking a few (and how much of a risk is two or three minutes for the youngsters at the beginning of the fourth quarter?) losses would be a reasonable price to pay for ensuring more consistent rest for the guys who absolutely need to be fresh come playoff time.  Homecourt is important, health more so.

Star-divide

However, this business in the first half just doesn't add up.  The Celts were getting killed.  They weren't doing anything right at either end of the floor.  The Magic's swingman-heavy lineup caused major defensive issues for the Celtics' second big man on the floor.  After a 15-point first quarter, the offense totaled seven points in the first half of the second.  It's hard to believe that a few minutes of Bill Walker trying his hand at the three or four or a couple of minutes of J.R. Giddens or Gabe Pruitt in the backcourt could have made this mess all that much worse. 

Sure, it's easy to say this in hindsight of a game the Celtics wound up losing anyway.  Perhaps the reaction here would have been a bit different if the C's had climbed all the way atop the mountain and won the game.  But as I watched the game and chatted with my buddy and fellow CB member Slick, the two of us spent the second quarter exchanging variations of "Why isn't Doc mixing this up and using this fiasco start to rest his guys a bit?," some more printable than others.  

Maybe if the young guys played even two or three minutes, the game would have gotten even more out of hand, and the Celtics never even would have had a chance to get back in the game.  But that is far from a certainty as there is a chance they could have provided an energy spark for the group as well.  What is definite is that a few minutes apiece would have been quality experience for those players and additional rest for Sugar Ray and The Truth.

I've resisted this topic for most of the season because I'm willing to trust that the coaching staff has a bit better idea of what it has than I do when it comes to unknown commodities only previously seen in practice, preseason and garbage time (not that the coaching staff doesn't have a better handle of the known commodities also, but I can at least fool myself into thinking I have a clue in those instances).  None of this is to say that the Celtics have the next Michael, Larry and Magic on the bench in Walker, Giddens and Pruitt.  In fact, it isn't even about my one-time goal of "seeing what we've got" anymore.  It's just about rest for the weary.  Because this is far from an isolated incident.

Paul Pierce has made multiple comments over the past month about the need to limit both his and Allen's minutes to prevent them from burning out down the stretch.  Given the Celtics' current health problems (add Rajon Rondo and Large Baby to the list that already included Kevin Garnett, Brian Scalabrine and Tony Allen), preserving the energy of the the two healthy All-Stars seems all the more imperative.  Last week, Doc publicly took responsibility for Pierce's insufficient rest after PP logged 41.1 minutes per game in the month of February.  Allen played a season-high 37.3 minutes per game that month as well.  Just five days before yesterday's disaster, Rivers pledged to use his rookies to hold the fort in brief stints until Allen and Scalabrine return.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Other thoughts from a difficult-to-watch loss:

  • Leon Powe, charge-drawer extraordinaire: four taken in the first half.  Wow.  He really does a fine job of getting to the spot and setting his body.  In addition, he seemed to be the only non-Ray Celtic with a pulse for much of the day, crashing the boards and scrapping for buckets and free throw attempts inside.  Another solid performance from The Show.
  • Ray played excellent basketball.  Not only did he lead the team with 32 points and nine rebounds, but his 17 fourth-quarter points were more than any other Celtic scored for the game.  While that paints a disheartening picture of the rest of the group's offensive output, credit Ray for putting this team on his back in the final period and doing nearly everything in his power to bring it all the way back.  Along the way, he had several pretty baby jumpers thanks to jump-stops and up-fakes in the paint.  He refused to give up on plays and followed up two of his own misses for offensive rebounds.  A fine game for the perennial All-Star.
  • I know it's early, but I can't shake the feeling that I'd rather light $378,683 on fire than pay it to Mikki Moore to play basketball, at least as far as the defensive end is concerned.  Yes, as mentioned earlier, Orlando's lineup creates match-up problems for the bigs not assigned to Dwight Howard.  That didn't make it any more pleasant to see Mikki once again getting blown by, not blocking, altering or discouraging shots, jumping at every fake and committing bad fouls.  He deserves some time to get acclimated to the Celtics' system, and I'm not writing him off (just in a particularly grouchy mood after the loss), but he sure is frustrating to watch right now.
  • Another sub-71 percent game from the foul line (17-for-24).  Textbook way for a team to help beat itself.
  • Infuriated Infant, welcome to the walking wounded.  Get well soon.
  • In the game's final minute, Leon Powe made illegal contact with Rashard Lewis and impeded his progress on a cut.  That's a foul.  And it was correctly called as such.
  • Highlight of the afternoon: Hearing the New Garden crowd triple its intensity level as the Celtics closed the gap late in the game.  The adrenaline rush that accompanies a big run for the home team never gets old.

Comment 21 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Plenty of time to rest today and Tuesday

I think the significance in terms of standings and tie-breaker implications with the closest 2 teams to the Celts in the East standings, played a huge role in the extra minutes these past 2 games. Doc was trying to win these, even more so than some of the other upcoming games, because of what they meant. I don’t think it means he wasn’t serious about giving minutes to the young guys, but there are still plenty of opportunities to do that ahead.

Doc rightly saw these 2 games as unique opportunities to put the C’s in a strong position heading down the stretch, in spite of the injuries. He knew there were 2 days off coming up, then dates with Miami, Memphis, Milwaukee, Chicago and Miami again, certainly not gimmes, but games they can more likely win even if Ray and Paul only play 35-38 min.

by KJ33 on Mar 9, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

I think this game is a rough example because the Cs need head-to-head wins vs. Orlando to make sure they don’t risk slipping all the way down to the 3 seed.

This of course doesn’t explain the rest of the season…

Big brother no longer needs to watch, because the world is convinced he is.

by Schupac on Mar 9, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I liked these sentences from Steve:

Sure, it’s easy to say this in hindsight of a game the Celtics wound up losing anyway. Perhaps the reaction here would have been a bit different if the C’shad climbed all the way atop the mountain and won the game.

There’s a reason nobody criticized Doc for playing Pierce 45 minutes versus Cleveland. For a game, all the moaning about Pierce’s minutes stopped.

by cordobes on Mar 9, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

doc did a poor job yesterday in several respects. He started the wrong pg and on top of that he didn’t tell his teamuntil right beforehand so no one was prepared. He didn’t rest pierce and allen when we down big early and clearly needed some energy off the bench. He tried to post up baby and perk when howard was waiting in the weeds. we should have been taking the medium jumper which was there all game. instead there was toomuch dribbling and guys trying to go one on one. Doc told the team the O would take care of itself; well it didn’t. the problem yesterday wasn’t the D it was the offense. yeah the D was bad but it got bette but the offense was bad until sometime in the 4th

by Red2 on Mar 9, 2009 1:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeay, Doc was always saying it was the D that was letting them down when in fact, they could hardly see the inside of the ring in the entire first half….PP was unbearable to watch in the first half as he kept bricking it and also too much turnovers for Pierce as well….I know he is the captain but he should have been benched in the first half if only to somehow change his momentum and shift his gear a bit, heck even his freebees where none existent in the first half that if he had gone to make em, none of the three pnt attempts in the end where they missed should have been needed

Overall, pretty bad game that doc should have atleast have the guts to play Walker or JR in the first half when nothing was happening.

by bopna on Mar 9, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Problem Was The Defense

The defense, or lack of, in the first half put us in a bind. Also, not using Howard’s shot blocking against us (upfake, extra pass) would have nullified that. As to Doc not telling the team until right before the game that Rondo wasn’t playing—Doc didn’t know that until right before the game. Rondo warmed up with the team and it was decided at the last minute that he shouldn’t play. As to starting the wrong pg, that’s debatable. When a player is injured Doc often prefers the most likely replacement to stay within his regular role; i.e., House as backup. We were doing so bad at the start I would have kept Marbury in longer just to get him into game shape.

"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird

by TrueGreen on Mar 9, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know that we are still in a tight race for HCA but for the love of the game, please DOC, Do something with PP and Rays minutes….Its like they are damned to play 40 min a game to salvage a win that is not even guaranteed automatic even if both play 48 minutes…..Even Lefreak Lebron gets to sit atleast an 8 minute stretch every game and he is so young he can play the whole damned game, whereas PP sits a maximum 3 minutes each time its getting ultimately rediculous.How much can our 30 something allstars body can endure this everygame is my ultimate concern..Doc, please have the BALLS to rest your Starters.

by bopna on Mar 9, 2009 1:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Doc’s never been good at rotations and minutes. He has never learned, and he’s not going to. Ironically, for someone who loves to practice, he overplays his starters and then gives time off on off days to compensate. This is a HUGE glaring weakness of Doc’s and it’s never going to change. He has different standards for different players. A mistake by Gabe or Bill in a 60 second span and he’ll pull them. Paul can go 18 minutes of just playing awful and still not get pulled.

Every coach has their strengths and weaknesses. Managing minutes and rotations for Doc is one of his weaknesses.

by amenhotep04 on Mar 9, 2009 2:04 PM EDT reply actions  

I disagree

I think Doc has been excellent with rotations, and that is why we have one championship and are looking for another.

The injuries have piled up at a difficult time…when we are positioned to claim HCA, and I can see why Doc has played Paul for, perhaps, too many minutes. The reason Paul and Ray can make mistakes and not get pulled is because they have proven that they can turn their games around and start hitting important shots, and not slow down on defense. The younger guys have not shown this yet…and maybe the hunt for HCA is not a good time to give them free reign. I do feel, that Doc can limit Paul and Ray’s minutes and we can still be in the race for home court…but I don’t think home court is absolutely necessary.

Also, I probably would have started Marbury also. He has been an all star, and needs to rid himself of rust for the home stretch. Why you would trust Pruitt or Walker over Marbury is beyond me. Marbury could be required to play major minutes and at best Pruitt and Walker should see limited time during the playoffs. I see no “HUGE glaring weekness.”

by thirstyboots18 on Mar 9, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

The dig against Doc his entire coaching career has been a problem of playing starters too many minutes, and/or leaving them in too long to where they are gassed at the end of games. HCA has nothing to do with the criticisms of him. Yes, Doc did a good job through much of last year, though he was dogged by similar criticisms at times throughout the season as well.

No one said start Pruitt or anyone over Marbury, so no need to go there. You’re reading something into what I said that is not there. Doc has a reluctance to play certain players. One might say that he has a better understanding of the players he has. But Doc makes these crazy statements about trying to find a way to play players as though it’s some kind of science. If the coach cannot figure something out about getting players some minutes, then it’s his own fault. I’m not saying he’s a terrible coach or anything like that. But let’s get real, he makes mistakes.

by amenhotep04 on Mar 9, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lewis and Leon got tied up...

no under a minute. with 23.2 seconds left on the clock. that’s less than 24 seconds. in a 1 possession game well off the ball with no implication to the immediate play, lewis flailing his arms like sideshow bob.

is it a foul? sure. but it’s a call that could have been let go. officials need to be aware that more and more they’re literally deciding the outcome of games, and it’s a major major problem for the NBA. right or wrong, that call decided the outcome of the game.

by ssspence on Mar 9, 2009 2:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Not a foul at all

Give me a break. Lewis and Powe got tangled up—it was a non-call or a double foul. You don’t make those kinds of off-the-ball calls with 20 seconds left…

by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Mar 9, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Completely Agree

I’m siding with these guys along with Tommy and Mike who were both dumbfounded by the foul call with less than 25 seconds left in the game.

Our boys in Green got jackhammered by the inconsistance officiating during the Cleveland game but they were fortunate that the Cavs were not hitting their free throws. Sunday’s pathetic start against Orlando can’t be blamed on the officials but when is it John DeRosa’s job to put an end to a possible comeback.

Lets not forget that the officials were allowing Howard to lower his head and practically ram through BBD to get to the basket. If the refs are going to call fouls on garbage like that, then there’s no way to defend a player.

Shop Smart! Shop S-Mart!

by alecquaid on Mar 9, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doc biggest weakness as a coach...

He shows absolutely zero creativity when it comes to reacting to the flow of the game. He’s FANTASTIC at establishing a rotation, sticking to it, and giving guys roles, etc… But once we get down by 20, or loss a couple players to injury or foul trouble, Doc never adjusts, he just keeps sticking to the plan he made before the game, regardless of how the game might be turning out.

A wise leader would be using this time of injury as an opportunity to get Walker/Giddens minutes…taking a negative situation and trying to make something positive from it. But Doc, on the other hand, is taking a negative situation and making it potentially worse by playing Ray/Paul 40+ minutes a night. Danny Ainge needs to give him another talking to, pronto!

by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Mar 9, 2009 3:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Like what Lawrence Frank did in benching Carter and Harris….or what Pop did when he his big three an entire game….for Doc, no such thing,I am thinkin how much PT would Bill Walker get in a team like the Spurs…probably not zero as against doc’s schemes.

by bopna on Mar 9, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, Malik Hairston was drafted immediately after Walker

So far he’s played in 15 games. Walker in 13. Hairston has 150 minutes, Walker 75. Not a very large difference. And there are players drafted ahead of Walker who haven’t played has much as him.

Pop has been notorious for being very conservative about playing rookies. Spurs fans complain a lot about that. In fact, lots of fanbases complain about that.

by cordobes on Mar 9, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

How Many Times
He shows absolutely zero creativity when it comes to reacting to the flow of the game. He’s FANTASTIC at establishing a rotation, sticking to it, and giving guys roles, etc… But once we get down by 20, or loss a couple players to injury or foul trouble, Doc never adjusts, he just keeps sticking to the plan he made before the game, regardless of how the game might be turning out.

I totally disagree with this statement. How many times have the C’s had a bad first half, gone into the locker room with everyone saying we need to change this or that and Doc says NO. What we need to do is play the way we’re supposed to play. And in the second half the C’s do the same things, only with better execution and more intensity, and we play better. Come to think of it, it happened against Orlando and we almost won the game.

"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird

by TrueGreen on Mar 9, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forgive me if I'm wrong

but it sounds like what you’re saying is you completely agree with the statement. Salmon and Mashed Potatoes may have presented the creativity aspect in a negative light, but your example shows that Doc keeps sticking to the plan and doesn’t change things, just like Salmon said. And Salmon, for your part, I wouldn’t take it that far that he has zero creativity but I think you certainly bring up a valid point about Doc’s (non) reacting to the flow of the games in general.

by Slick on Mar 9, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Creativity

The creativity Doc lacks is a game-by-game creativity that determines that so-and-so player really doesn’t have it today, or that so-and-so rookie or bench player might just be the kind of spark the team needs….

For example, remember when we went into Golden State the day after the Christmas game against the Lakers? It was obvious we were due for a letdown after the Laker game, and we also weren’t going to have Perk that night. A nice creative solution to that game’s challenges would have been to give O’Bryant a surprise start, since he had a revenge factor in his favor and since it would allow us to keep the bench rotation the same. Doc started Powe instead, didn’t make any other adjustments, O’Bryant stayed on the bench and we lacked any noticeable energy or spark throughout the game. For that one game, O’Bryant could have given us a boost of energy. Doc let the potential boost go unplayed.

Now on Sunday, we’re down to 11 healthy players, the team just came off a huge, emotional win on Friday, and we’re probably looking at a let-down game. Sounds like a good game to play Bill Walker, he might give us a little energy, which we’ll probably be lacking, and if anything else, he’ll give Pierce and Ray the rest that they need. Doc does neither; in fact, he tightens the rotation, plays non-point guard Eddie House 30 minutes (including the last 18 minutes of the game), relies on his two big guns to do most of the point guard play, Ray/Paul both play over 45 minutes and we end up losing. Sure, the comeback was great and it was predicated on Ray/Paul/House all playing big minutes (mostly it was Ray’s great individual effort). But if we’d had played Walker in the first half, maybe he would have given us an energy boost or helped the comeback start sooner; if anything, though, he would have kept Ray/Paul fresher for that 2nd half comeback. And I’m sure he wouldn’t have done any worse than what any other C was doing.

Bottom line, if you can’t figure out a way to not play Paul/Ray 45+ minutes, then you are an uncreative coach. Yes, Doc is great at keeping things consistent. But he also needs to understand that at certain points of a game or a season, he needs to use creative problem-solving techniques. Over the course of his career, he’s never really been able to accomplish that and that’s one of his main, if not greatest, problems as a coach—he lacks creativity. I’d go even further too, saying that the lack of creativity is not about his inability to think up creative things—he’s probably very good at that—but the problem is that he’s TOO CONSERVATIVE to implement those creative solutions. When the going gets tough, he sticks to his guns, plays ‘his guys’ into the ground and tries to gut it out. Now, that’s a defensible game-to-game decision, but over the long term it has bad consequences—namely, too many minutes for Ray/Paul and a lack of development for certain bench players. I wouldn’t mind if Doc did it sometimes—Friday night against Cleveland was the right time to do it—but Doc keeps doing it over and over and that makes it wrong.

by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Mar 9, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right to a degree

I love when Doc says we’re going to do the same things, but only with better execution and more intensity. THAT’s a great coaching move and the perfect way to motivate the starting unit.

However, KG and Rondo were out on Sunday. The team suffered a letdown after the Cleveland game. They needed an energy boost, they needed solid point guard play, and they also needed to keep Ray and Paul’s minutes from getting up into the 40s again. Sounds like a good time to play your 3rd string point guard and your back up small forward, right? Not in Doc’s world. He just decided to do the same things, without recognizing that certain things had changed. Consistency is great, but ignoring reality to achieve consistency isn’t. Doc’s consistency sometimes strays into conservatism, which is bankrupt philosophy which denies the fundamental transitory nature of reality. And it is during these forays into conservatism where Doc’s lack of creativity shows itself. Give Doc a healthy lineup and his consistency works wonders—decimate that same lineup with injuries, and Doc’s consistency is a hindrance. Doc needs to understand that certain situations call for change. With our current spate of injuries, that time is upon us. Every crisis comes with opportunity and Doc is doing his darnedest to waste the opportunity implicit in this current injury crisis.

by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Mar 9, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Enough Of This Minutes Talk

Remember the days when pitchers pitched complete games? All the time? Now they are stopped after throwing 50 pitches. What’s important in basketball is to win games and develop that winning attitude until it’s a habit. It makes no sense, IMO, (first time I used this abbr.) to reduce Ray"s and Paul’s minutes just for the sake of reducing their minutes. (I used the "IMO) abbrev. to reduce my minutes here which should make you all happy). I’m also tired of Doc— has to play Giddens, Walker and Pruitt. For what reason? There are less than 20 games and it is close to or at the time when we need to be peaking for the playoffs. We are also still in the race for HCA (reduced minutes). G,W &P will not give us anything substantial in the playoffs. These guys will not become all stars in the remaining games. The only players I would throw in there are Marbury and Moore. These guys will be needed in the playoffs. Doc said he made a mistake by starting Marbury. I’m not so sure he did. His problem is to get in game shape and get used to his teammates. I would let him play Rondo minutes for a few games just for that purpose. Then put him back into the role he will play in the playoffs. Have any of you taken a two week vacation from work. You’ll get all refreshed and have great energy when you get back to work and you’ll finish the year without getting tired again? Usually, after two days you’re back to where you were before your vacation and you are no more refreshed than before. Reducing minutes for Ray and Paul will not get them any more refreshed for the playoffs. They work 48 minutes on game day. Then there are days off. Doc often doesn’t practice the team and when he does he often doesn’t have guys who put in big minutes in games practice. So they could get 48 hr of rest between games (or something like that). IMHO Doc should play to win and should use his players as he sees fit.

"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird

by TrueGreen on Mar 9, 2009 8:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

CelticsBlog is a growing interactive community dedicated to providing fresh, comprehensive coverage of the Boston Celtics.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
"We really have only 2 options to keep winning."
Small
Celtics vs. Heat - ECF Matchup
Small
How Avery Bradley's absence affects everyone else
Small
Thoughts on Celtics vs. Heat
Small
Already Doubting The Celtics?
Small
Start Pavlovic over Ray to cover Dirty Wade
Small
Why we can beat the heat
Mchale_small
Can the C's Cool Down the Heat?
Small
Fourth Quarter of Game 7: A Glimpse of the Future with Rondo?
Small
Is Rondo out of his mind? Or just on some other level?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


CEO

Shamrock-blk-trans_small Jeff Clark

Authors/Editors

Hoosiers-dvdcover_small Roy_Hobbs

300h_small Wide Load

Big_4_small Jimmy Toscano

Leon_powe_small Green17

Ud_small Tom Bellinger

Grawful3_small Kiorrik

Authors/Mods

1_koolaid_avi_small FLCeltsFan

Po3_small Master Po

Images_small Bent

Green_avatar_small Fafnir

Small Tom Halzack

N23879518902_8484_small Jon Duke - CSL

Small jose3030

5bill_small Jack Jemsek

Small wjsy

Small Ryan Desmarais

250_small Brendan O'Hare

1119816_small JoshZavadil

Small TLayman

Small Anthony_Bruzzese

Small theoriginalhagrid

Sheed_small evansclinchy

Moderators

Photo_14_small Steve Weinman

Too_much_coffe_man_small Edgar

Small Chris72

Small thirstyboots18

Small CfanMissippi