Absolutely a big difference between the two plays. I live outin LA and at least one show spent three hours on the topic, all the while claiming to be objective. If they really wanted to be objective, they wouldn’t have brought everything down to one play. I should have called and asked them to ananlyze the last two calls on Ray and see what their objectivity told them.

After the Howard announcement, another show siad that we should expect a similar announcement regarding Rondo soon. Needless to say, they were shocked with the result.

Anyway, one was a basketball play and the other was not. Stu (whatever his name is) was on the radio this morning and gave a very basic interpretation of the play. Yes, hand met face. But there clearly was no intent and equally as important, no follow through. The end.

  Well, if not at least your a rational basketball fan. My take exactly. You’ve got the smallest guy on the court trying to foul to stop a shot vs. the largest guy on the court throwing a deliberate elbow. Ong Bak anyone?

…but that does not necessarily mean that one should be a flagrant and the other shouldnt. rondo had literally no chance to block the shot of the much taller brad miller from the position he was in. so what did he do? he went for the head. there is no question in my mind that this was intentional. if you follow where rondo’s head and eyes, he is looking right at brad miller until right after he hit him, at which time his attention shifted to the ball.

 i know its different because he did it to stop him from scoring, but that does not mean it is not a flagrant foul. if you tackle a guy going for a layup to stop him from making it, it is still a flagrant foul. i agree that rondo shouldnt be suspended, but it should have been two shots and the ball.

If Rondo had hit Ben Gordon in the face trying to challenge a jump shot, a play were he has no actual chance of blocking the shot, would anyone be calling for a flagrant foul. Hell no because it happens all the time, that is why dudes where head bands so refs know they got hit. If the big flopper didn’t land on Pierce’s elbow and bust himself up it wouldn’t have been an issue.

The truth is Howard was malicious and sneaky. If he had done that to me, I would have killed the slob. He deserves to be punished severely. One can’t get much lower than that. Rondo juist tried to foul hard. It was the correct basketball play to do. Coming at someone that big and tall from such a great speed, that’s the way his hand fell on Miller. Nothing maliciuous or evily intended. I wish he had hit him even harder

Shut up about the fouls that didn’t go the Celts way! Didn’t Perkins(usually the one with the MOST fouls) not have 1 foul the whole game?! How does that happen? Calls were bad BOTH ways the whole game, but the one at the end with Rondo was a flagrant 1 no question..he should be suspended for at least one game.
Ok the game is on the line and he is making a hard foul. But there is NO WAY he is going for the ball in that situation, and he hit the guy hard enough IN THE FACE to make him bleed and need stitches. Was that part an accident?
This WAS different than Howard, but still deserves a suspension due to the nature of the foul( he WAS NOT aiming at the ball whatsoever)

(Partly repeating an earlier post, just to put this to bed finally.)
The NBA does not specifically define what a flagrant foul is, because there are too many possible circumstances, so it’s impossible. They provide GUIDELINES. Now the NBA has chosen guidelines for a flagrant 1 that include a "wind-up" plus the resultant hard contact. They have chosen guidelines for a flagrant 2 to include “unnecessary and excessive contact” which “usually” includes a wind-up + contact + follow-through.

As they said in their announcement: in Rondo’s case there was no wind-up, and no follow through. Therefore, no change to the refs call. Just a hard foul.

WHY do they have these guidelines? Contrary to what many have said, here and elsewhere, it IS about intent… even though "intent" is not specifically mentioned in the rulebook. A "wind-up" was chosen as part of the guidelines BECAUSE it implies an intent to commit a flagrant foul ( "hard" contact). They chose the follow-through as an additional criterion for a flagrant 2 because it implies not only intent, but some level of malice (unsportsmanlike behavior, etc.)

In the end, it IS about the state of mind of the player committing the foul. It doesn’t say that explicitly in the rules, but it’s there nonetheless.

I think this is all good. Intent should be a key factor. If a guy is trying to stop a layup and happens to hit somebody in the mouth, with no wind-up, no follow-through, no harsh language or history of thuggery… that’s a hard foul, not a flagrant. I.e., the NBA has chosen to allow that kind of play (as just a regular foul).

- Howard’s foul falls under the heading of Rule 12A Exceptions for punching, elbows, fighting with players or fans, even an attempted punch that misses, etc., which are infractions that are considered “unsportsmanlike”. For these infractions the rule is clear: “the player will be ejected immediately”. Since the refs failed to do that in the game, the league office did it for the next game (which is actually a worse punishment).

- Ariza’s foul on Rudy Fernandez should have been a flagrant 1 because of the wind-up. There was no follow through, and nothing else to indicate ill intent, so it should have been downgraded from the 2. I suppose they didn’t do it because of the severity of the result… whatever. These guidelines are clearly not set in stone.

- If Rondo had said after the game “I’m glad I did it. My only regret is that I didn’t pull his damn head off. I’ll do better next time.” — you can bet your bottom dollar it would have been a flagrant, with a fine and suspension. In the end, it’s all about intent… albeit implicitly.

Throwing a foul like that to the face is not hard basketball its jail ball

Rondo is not a dirty player ,but that was a dirty play.
 It should have been a flagrant foul ,meaning any Chicago player could have shot the free throws plus the ball.
 The refs were scared to make the call.
 If it had been the other way around and had Brad Miller clocked Rondo in the head it would have been called.
 It was not a basketball play. It was a head hunt with intent to take the player out so he could not make the basket.
 If Omare Stodamire and Boris Diaw could get suspended in a playoff game for merely stepping on the court,then Rondo should have been suspended for this game tonight.
 Be real and admit that the NBA screwed up here. If they were not going to call it in the game they needed to make it right with a suspension.

These are subjective matters. My take on the Rondo foul was that he recovered from being in a different position and came from behind Miller and went for the ball. He hit his arm and his head in the process. It wasn’t flagrant and the hit on the head or face was incidental. If we want flagrant what about the guy that hit Scals hard from behind, not having a chance to block his shot and sent Scals into his third concussion. To me that was flagrant, but nothing was done about it. That hit was much worse than what Rondo did. If we want to talk about hits to the head what about the non fouls when Pierce’s head band gets knocked off……or the knees to the thighs that he constantly gets. Those are probably more debilitating than a cut on the lip.

My post wasn’t for you in particular it was for the people who truly thought that Rondo’s foul was ok because of the fouls the Bulls were “getting away with” the whole game.

<Alskor + Adrigo>…. Just because the league said he was going for the ball doesn’t mean he was… And I’M NOT A BULLS FAN…I’M A CAVS FAN. I could care less who makes it out of that series because they have to face Orlando(probably) who I think will pull it together next round. I’m responding to the Rondo foul…I saw it on TV and instantly was wondering how long I thought they would suspend him for…turns out they treated it like a regular shooting foul, which is bs. watch it again…Rondo doesn’t even look at the ball. Miller had the ball extended even and Rondo smacked him in the face. That call is ridiculous.

I was born in Ohio and have lived in Ohio my whole life…don’t try to call me a fairweather fan….I have ALWAYS loved the Cavs. Besides I think you guys set the record for the # of those last year. Paul Pierce is all alone and nobody cares about the Celtics, but once he gets his two All-Star buddies, it’s Celtic-nation…I’m not saying you are a fairweather fan, I just know they’re out there and a lot of them are wearing green.

Bottom line is the hit on Miller was dirty (suspension or no suspension). If anyone did that to one of our Celts, there would be mobs on the street.

Now by Steve’s definition of what merits a suspension, Rondo should definitely miss a few games due to his cheap shots on Hinrich today.

Right!?