The Babble and Statistics
A Daily Babble Production
The last two months have seen a confluence of factors bring the discussion of statistical evaluative tools closer to the forefront of the conscience of basketball's mainstream following.
Back in February, Michael Lewis published the "No-Stats All-Star" in the New York Times, utilizing the Rockets' Shane Battier and Daryl Morey as catalysts for a discussion about the need for statistics more telling than those found in a traditional box score. That, along with March's more-popular-than-ever MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference (check out Kevin Pelton's recap here) reinvigorated a discussion that has long been raging in the blogosphere centered around the value of statistical analysis and questions of what can and can't be measured on the basketball court.
Two weeks later, the folks at The Big Lead said they weren't buying the metrics that have come to be known as advanced stats. Tom Ziller responded with a pro-stats post that led to a debate at Sactown Royalty far more spirited than the Kings' defense has been at any point this season. TrueHoop's Henry Abbott made a succinct point about the value of seeking the right stats and then chronicled a pertinent disagreement between Knickerblogger and David Friedman at 20 Second Timeout over the improvement or lack thereof of the D'Antoni Knicks. Ziller then went back for more with his StR readership.
All that said, there is no shortage of recent reading material available written from a variety of perspectives. Those links are all just from the last eight weeks. A simple Google search for "APBR metrics" or "advanced basketball stats" will yield plenty more, both old and new.
That brings us to today's topic. As the home of my various hoops-related ruminations, this Daily Babble space plays host to a wide range of statistical references, many of which are made without further elaboration. I owe it to each of you faithful readers to provide an explanation of how statistical analysis is approached at Babble Central.
No matter what statistics one uses, they are a complementary tool to observation, not a replacement. Paper exists in two dimensions, and basketball is played in three.
I've long said that I'm fortunate that my archives at my old site were wiped out because of all my rambling postulations, two or three were exceptionally dumb. One of the silliest things I wrote - an ill-informed diatribe about Kevin Martin for which Tom Ziller rightfully killed me - came courtesy of not watching enough and using the wrong statistics. At the time, I thought I had taken enough time to observe Martin's game, and I simply hadn't. It was an error in judgment but ultimately a good learning experience for someone still becoming familiar with the responsibility that comes with offering his thoughts to a viewing public.
I present my writings to you here on a daily basis as a product of my own observations based on as significant a sample size as I can find, my discussions with and readings of writers, watchers, players, coaches and front office members whose insight I respect, as well as pertinent statistics that relate to what I've seen. Since the eyes do deceive sometimes, when the statistics don't match up with observation, it seems only right to take the time to explore that discrepancy rather than potentially postulating inaccuracies to you.
The eyes and the stat books serve as good checks for each other rather than mutually exclusive entities. I've encountered the viewpoint in discussions with friends of mine that people either watch basketball or sit at their computers watching numbers but not both. That's simply not true. Without a doubt, there's a danger of becoming too invested in the paper and not paying enough attention to the nuances of the game that lead to success and failure (we don't have specific measures for screening, for how teams play screen-and-rolls or how well a player moves his feet defensively), just as there is of deciding that Mikki Moore is a good shot-blocker because he is tall and you saw him get a piece of the ball once.
But the people who are worth listening to aren't at either of those extremes. Kevin Pelton is brilliant. He's become one of my favorite hoops writers because of his ability to perform in-depth statistical analysis (like this study of close game performance) while also providing exacting insights on the technique of the players he watches (check out this breakdown of Blake Griffin's performance against North Carolina in the Elite Eight). Ziller watches every Kings game, understands the ins and outs of their offensive and defensive schemes and presents the numbers to back his assessment of their play (not to mention that he's pretty good on the rest of the league as well over at FanHouse). Those are only two that come to mind quickly on a long list of like writers. The point, in short: There is an attainable happy medium of both understanding the way basketball is played and the way it is measured.
Along with the issue of general statistics use comes that of using the right statistics. The money quote from the Lewis article cited above is Rockets GM Daryl Morey suggesting the creator of the box score be shot. Just because we have used certain performance measures for a long time doesn't mean we can't improve them. For example, blocks and steals are not, repeat not, grounds for definitive assessments of the totality of a player's defensive contribution. Over a period of several years, the APBRmetrics community (named for the Association for Professional Basketball Research) has made great strides in making those improvements.
While volume stats still have a place (there is something to be said for scoring an obscene amount of points in a game or grabbing a lot of rebounds), they aren't the be-all, end-all by any means. Since every team plays at a different pace and not all players receive the same amount of playing time, it seems fair to normalize for those factors when we evaluate teams and players. Because of that, it makes a lot of sense to me to use per-possession measures rather than per-game measures when possible. A game is an artificial concept, whereas a possession is one time down the court with a chance to score.
Since both teams get roughly the same number of possessions in a game they play against each other, one can predict more accurately how they will compare on offense and defense based on how effectively each uses its possessions. The same goes for rebounding, turnovers and a host of other parts of the game because possessions are opportunities that are similarly defined for everyone whereas games are not. Similarly, while per-minute stats should be used with caution (projecting out for a guy who plays a minute a game against LeBron James' figures is idiotic), they also help to normalize for players who receive different opportunities as do certain stats (such as rebound rate) that standardize for pace.
On another note, it bears noting that basketball is far from an individual game. The ultimate goal is to win basketball games as a team, and a player's individual stat line often doesn't tell the whole story of how well he interacts (in an on-court sense) with his teammates to achieve that goal. That has led a variety of efforts to quantify a player's value to his team with a single number, such as adjusted plus-minus, win shares, Wins Above Replacement Player, Wages of Wins and on/off court ratings. John Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating also attempts to combine a player's contribution into one number to help indicate his value to his team.
On a personal note, I'm still not sure how necessary I feel it is to devise a statistic that even approaches serving as one tell-all of a player's performance and value to his team. As the proponents of many of those stats attest, they realize that these stats aren't actually tell-alls. For instance, Hollinger knows that PER doesn't do enough to recognize defensive contribution (because, again, defense goes waaaaaaaaay beyond blocks and steals figures) and will remind you that it is just part of the equation. But I would like to think we're also capable of looking at the measurable facets of a player's game - scoring efficacy, success on the boards, ability to take care of the basketball, how much he dominates the offense, to name several - understanding that they aren't all of equal importance for each player and assessing those players based on a set of different measures and observations.
But, and this is key so far as what you see in the Babble is concerned, I'm not qualified to say a word more in that previous paragraph because I don't understand those metrics well enough yet. I jumped on the advanced stats bandwagon late, starting at the beginning of last season, and I've still got a ton of work to do to catch up. I'm currently in the middle of Dean Oliver's landmark Basketball On Paper, and I've got a ton of reading after that to do on PER, adjusted plus-minus, Wages of Wins, win shares, value added, composite score and a host of other statistics that could well be useful evaluative tools.
There are certain statistical measures that you don't see in this space and won't for the immediate future, not because I don't like those stats so much as it is that I don't understand them. Adjusted plus-minus sounds like a great idea to me - measuring how a team does with a player on the floor while controlling for the quality of his teammates and opponents. But I have no idea how someone could effectively control those factors, and I haven't taken adequate time yet to acquaint myself with any of the several forms of APM available on the 'Net. Until I do, I don't feel comfortable using it. StR reader Viliphied is right when he says that not understanding a stat isn't a valid argument against that stat. As someone who relays my opinions on the game to you every day, it is my job here to be understand those stats, and I promise you that I am continuously devoting my time to gain a better understanding of the ones I don't grasp yet.
Until then, you will continue to see what you already have: statistics that I feel I grasp well enough to explain their meanings to any of you who may be less familiar with those measures. I refuse to throw out numbers that don't represent something I can explain to anyone who questions them. Since our readership comes from a variety of backgrounds and likely has a wide scope of familiarity levels with the stats, tomorrow I will post a primer of the measurements commonly used here at the Daily Babble as well as a list of resource links for my details on APBR stats. As I continue my learning about the metrics mentioned above and come to conclusions about which I trust enough to use in my writing, I will add those to the list.
We aren't able to measure everything that happens on a basketball court at this point. Perhaps we never will be, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. But it's worth the effort to look for measures that do more justice than the old standbys. In this small corner of the blogosphere, we'll continue to stress the side-by-side value of observation and statistical evidence, the use of measures that one understands and the value of continued learning statistics that provide more accurate evaluations of the players and teams who compete than the box score does.
2 recs |
25 comments
|
Comments
wonderful recap
I agree with you on not using some stats because I don’t understand how to use them, not because they aren’t valuable
if I had more time, I’d love to learn more about them, but for now I’ll have to let the experts do it
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
by Jeff Clark on Apr 6, 2009 2:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Jeff
Glad you enjoyed – and thanks for adding a great picture of some of the panelists from the Sloan Conference.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Apr 6, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great write-up, Steve. In the end, it's all about balancing stats and observation together. That's the key in being analytical.
.. likewise, I don’t claim to know them all either, but I’m confident that I have a firm grasp of the concepts and limitations associated with many statistics. If you ever need help understanding some of the nuances of different advanced metrics, I’d be more than happy to provide a lending hand as best as I can (the peeps over at the APBRmetrics forum are, also, more than willing to answer questions).
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
by erivera7 on Apr 6, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Eddy
I appreciate the offer and imagine I’ll be taking you up on that sooner rather than later – I really do love learning about this stuff. Just one more dimension of what makes the game (playing, watching, analyzing, fooling around with stats) such a joy for me.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Apr 6, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt, Steve. Any time.
The APBRmetrics community is very friendly and encourages questions from people like us (regular folk) that may not have a firm grasp of a concept here or there. Adds to the discussion and helps push the ball forward with regards to the refinement of all the advanced statistics out there.
I think the key, when referencing different metrics, is to know the limitations of them. That way when you analyze a certain number, you understand why that number is what it is. It’s always helpful to provide a disclaimer while making a post, with regards to the flaw(s) of a certain stat. Little things like these go a long way in educating the reader so that they know how to interpret a certain statistic the right way.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
by erivera7 on Apr 6, 2009 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MIT
Did anyone else go to this conference? It was pretty awesome and I wish the Basketball Analytics discussion lasted for longer than it did. It was simply heaven for any NBA junkies.
by jdpapa3 on Apr 6, 2009 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You have to go here, but please not too often
The Red Sox have it right. They do cover the stats base. But they also have great physical trainers (so do Celts) and don’t diminish clubhouse personalities etc. If Big Baby’s value is rising so much and it were my money I’d want to slice and dice his relative values every which way. But, it isn’t my money. I’m just a fan. There are stat wonks who have frankly “left the reservation” and can ruin a perfectly good discussion on sports, never mind the personal life they are wasting. I really do like most of your commentary but this Babble comes close to that and I suppose if you didn’t wander off the reservation once in a while you wouldn’t be able to gather the other lost wanderers. Some aren’t bad – Roy Hobbs nailing the roster and contract intrigues- is an example. If you aren’t making a fair bit of money analyzing sports stats then why waste your time.
by Wildblu1 on Apr 6, 2009 3:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the candid view, Wildblu,
though I’m not sure I follow everything you say there.
What do you mean when you say that “stat wonks…can ruin a perfectly good discussion on sports?” Should stats not play a role in a discussion of what happens on the court?
As far as analyzing sports stats, while I’m not sure if that’s directed to me or a general question, I love sports, and a component of that for me is the statistics – I enjoy it. That alone makes it worth the time for me on a personal level – although I wouldn’t object to compensation, of course. :-D
Out of curiosity, why do you say that this Babble “comes close to” wandering off the reservation? Because it brings up and offers support to the statistics discussion at all?
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Apr 6, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I imagine “Babble Central” as the Fortress of Solitude with more Larry Bird & Dee Brown posters.
by The Walker Wiggle on Apr 6, 2009 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey Steve - thanks for the great rundown, methinks the Babble speaks wisely...
Allright, ya had ta pique my interest in all this stat stuff. here I was perfectly happy to think i knew a thing or two about balanced perspective and you hadda show me the curtain. What’s behind this curtain? wait’ll I get a flashlight…
by jyrecelts on Apr 6, 2009 5:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The value of statistics
Box score statistics certainly have some value, but they don’t tell the whole story. Many valuable contributions depend more on observation than quantifiable things such as points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, etc. It would be easy, for instance, to conclude that Wilt Chamberlain was the best center of the 60’s or that Jordan was the best player at any position in the history of the NBA based on those statistics. There is one quantifiable stat that I find particularly telling. There is only one NBA player who was born with too few fingers to wear all of his championship rings at the same time: Bill Russell.
by recrowe2000 on Apr 6, 2009 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I love it...
… and no man walking deserves them more…
by jyrecelts on Apr 6, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm...
…that is the whole point of searching for new statistical methods that attempt to tell other parts of the story, parts that are far more insightful, illuminating and beneficial. It is because points, rebounds, assists, etc leave so much to be desired as a means of explaining why player (a) is better than player (b), or why a certain play run in a certain situation is better than a different play at that time, or what type of player compliments an established roster, that new ways of quantifying these things, and many others, are utilized and needed. as i stated below it is not an either or but a complimentary relationship between stats and observation in which the two together illuminate things the other can’t and lead to a greater understanding offered than either alone.
if you think the standard statistics wrongly prove that wilt was better than russell why wouldn’t want more nuanced and indepth statistics that get to greater truths of the game and perhaps back up your point? if you were a gm wouldn’t you want new statistics that give you a greater understanding of the value of your own players or free agents you are thinking of signing?
the rings argument is also reductive and doesn’t tell the whole story. and russell was a greater player than chamberlin.
by ChainSmokingLikeDino on Apr 6, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
great post steve
i appreciate your outlook on the role of statistics in basketball analysis. there is a constant argument certain naysayers put forth that people who look to new statistical categories for further insight and knowledge are oblivious to what they see in front of their own eyes. they say well that doesn’t account for (a) or (b). this mythical sports fan/g.m/etc does not exist. it is the use of statistics in conjunction with observation, as you rightly point out, that allows one to obtain insight greater than the exclusive use of either alone.
on this true opening day of the baseball season this article only hammers home further the loss to sports fans of the late great “fire joe morgan” blog. they did god’s work in pointing out the lunacy of sportswriters and announcers who think anyone who valued WARP was a lonely manchild sitting in his parent’s basement.
yes i’m a celtics fan, but even were i not the daily babble would be required reading, alongside freedarko, as first stops for nba writing.
by ChainSmokingLikeDino on Apr 6, 2009 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, CSLD
For your perspective and for the kind words as well, which are very much appreciated. I’m honored to be a part of your daily reading each day.
As for FJM, let me join you in feeling the loss. I didn’t really get into the site until last summer, when it almost immediately became a favorite – both for the humor and for the prodding it gave me to start learning about sabermetrics (which I’m a bit slower on than basketball, but I’m working on that as well). Still read through the archives all the time for the laughs.
And great points in the other post above, by the way.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Apr 6, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I'm off the reservation
I do find stats a part of the discussion TO A LEVEL. But stat wonks get a little creepy trying to go one stat further than rational man has gone before. We’ll be measuring the size of tattoos for meaning before too long. I read the box score after every C’s game. In fact I read every NBA game’s box score and see which rookie is maybe outperforming his draft position etc. So I’m not stat averse.
But there is stat overload and I thought this Babble was giving appreciation to that. But remember, I did say I like your articles and I would want a stats guy weighing in if I had Danny’s job and I do have the choice not to read this if it is a subject that I don’t care to much for. I’m just blogging
by Wildblu1 on Apr 6, 2009 8:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for clarifying,
and again, I appreciated the kind words about my work in general. I hope it’s clear that I asked for the elaboration above because I was curious and not sure I understood – not offended. I respect the candid disagreement or your preference to avoid what your refer to as “stat overload.”
I think where we’ll have to agree to disagree is that while I’m not looking for more stats just for the sake of more stats, I’m interested in more telling stats. You mention the box score, and that’s where I’ll agree with Morey – that I’m not sure the box score tells us enough about how a player is truly performing.
Again, I appreciate the dialogue, and I always enjoy seeing your thoughts in the comments – whether or not we’re necessarily on the same side of a particular subject.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Apr 6, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wildblu1...
Have you ever been in a locker room of a basketball team in high school or above? I’m sure you have. What do coaches do when preparing for another team? They throw stats on the chalkboard and use them to disect the opponents strengths and weaknesses. Except there’s one difference; the coaches have access to stats that fans do not. Part of this is because they can see the game at a different speed than most casual fans. But a bigger part is that they have paid assistants and stat geeks tracking certain areas. That’s the problem with todays stats and I’m pretty sure what Steve was getting at in his piece. The problem is not with using stats to compare players, the problem is that we do not have all the stats. There can never be enough statistics. This is the one thing that allows us to play “GM for a day” or “coach for a day.”
Without stats, fans would have nothing but their memories to go on. Those memories are critical, but cannot be used to the degree that stats can. The issue is not with too many stats, but incorrect and useless stats. Plus Minus in my opinion is one of those stats. You are personally held accountable for the success of 4 of your teammates. No matter how well you play, you can receive a -20 if the other 4 guys are blowing it. No matter how poorly you play, you can rack up a +20 if the other 4 guys light it up. Player Efficiency Rating is an amazing stat tracker. Proof of this? The 3 best PER seasons were Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan and Lebron James (this year). That alone shows us that this stat needs a second look. It’s a repord card for each player. Once they can find a sufficient way to track defense, we will be all set. Until then, it’s almost not even fair to try and compare players. The truth is, outside of about 40 players in the league, most fans don’t really even know a good defender from a bad one.
SCOTT
by Vegas Scott on Apr 6, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said my friend....
…breaking down the game correctly takes far, far more than live observation of a game in real time….you’re eyes often tell you things that aren’t true – you use the numbers to verify consistency and efficiency in certain areas…relying on “gut” and visual recognition leaves one susceptible to selective memory, where the mind lingers on the high-lights and low-lights and doesn’t see the bigger picture.
Finding the “right” statistics is often about discovering what information is valuable to your own personal criteria. Clearly, professionals have standard criteria that are always important – hence my bashing of a poster a week or so ago claiming that post play was no longer important – but when constructing a team, it requires statistical analysis and comparison to determine what you have on a roster and what you need.
Teams take it to the micro level, the good ones at least. You don’t just rank the top 3 point shooters – you see what spots on the court they shoot best at, how well they shoot with a defender contesting, how good they are in motion vs. set, effectiveness by game situation and oppoents, etc…all of this is then tiered against the strengths and weaknesses of the other players to find balance.
The game is about breakdowns and play-types…discovering who does what well in which situations…statistics are the way of tracking what’s going on and advanced analytics is the pursuit of better ways in which to define what’s happening.
It couldn’t be more relevent…
by BillfromBoston on Apr 7, 2009 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm...
I would like to see stats that more completely reflect the reflect the impact an individual player has on the game of basketball. I just don’t think stats can do the job. Basketball is a team sport. While I think a compelling case can be made that Russ was the best team player in all of sports, stats don’t tell the tale. And I don’t mean to say that he did it alone. He had a lot of help. Cousy almost invented the modern point guard position. He doesn’t get as much credit as he deserves because the tracking of those stats has changed since his time. Russ also had more scoring support than many people realize allowing him to concentrate on defense and passing, an option Wilt didn’t have. Also, I have to admit, I am biased. Not just in this specific forum, but in regards to the discussion of the term “dynasty” in pro sports in general. If there has ever been a “dyansty” in pro sports, it was the Celtics winning 8 in a row. Arguably the Jordan Bulls could have equalled that achievement had not Jordan decided to dabble in baseball, but we’ll never know for certain. That point brings into the discussion the importance of coaching and/or management. A great philosopher once said that that no man is an island. If there is any sports arena outside of golf or tennis that refutes that principle I’d like to know about it.
by recrowe2000 on Apr 6, 2009 9:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
RECROWE2000 You're kind of making the argument for stat geeks though...
While I think a compelling case can be made that Russ was the best team player in all of sports, stats don’t tell the tale.
When Bill Russell played; steals, blocks and offensive rebounds were not tracked. Ironically these are 3 areas that he excelled in. Many people feel that in 2 of the 3 (blocks and offensive rebounds) he was arguably the best ever in those categories.
In 1959-60 Russell averaged:
18 ppg; 24 rpg; 4 apg
That doesn’t tell us anything? Anybody who averaged 24 rebounds a game has got a permanent spot on my top 50 greatest of all time list for sure. No further evidence needed, that’s how incredible that is. Anybody who has ever played organized basketball knows how hard it is to even average 10 rebounds a game. 24 is not supposed to happen. I don’t really care how tall the opposing players are or what era you are playing. That is completely insane.
Now, imagine if they tracked his blocks? I have no idea how many he would have averaged, I was not alive when he played. But what if it were something like 7 a game? That wouldn’t make a difference on where people placed Bill Russell on the all time greats list? The fact is, the biggest problem with trying to place Russell is that blocks were not kept. That’s a huge hole when trying to compare him versus Wilt or another great. That’s a hole in the evidence. People that watched him play tell us how amazing he was at blocking shots, but how is someone like myself supposed to be sure of that without proper evidence? Stats are evidence, they need to be kept and they need to keep evolving.
SCOTT
by Vegas Scott on Apr 7, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and that...
…is the reason for NEW stats. there seems to be a disconnect that continually occurs in these discussions where the anti-stat camp (and yes it isn’t as black and white as all this but still…) looks at box scores and says this leaves out so much while the pro-stat camp actually agrees with that and says this is why we need new forms of tracking the game that can properly gives us insight into answering the questions you posed above, questions that grow out of observation and answers that work in conjunction with observation. both camps in the end want the same thing, a deeper understanding of why things happen and work, a way to explain what they have seen, a way into a narrative being told about players, games and history.
there are people working on individual play, team defenses, impacts of coaching/playing style on winning, etc etc. the issues you want to further understand are things people are thinking about, trying to come up with ways of viewing these issues that give us greater insight into the why’s and how’s. the outright of dismissal of those writing on/researching/working with statistics seems to be based on an ignorance of what exactly is being done and the objectives of the work.
by ChainSmokingLikeDino on Apr 6, 2009 9:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Depth, Perception
Reading this post, and the thoughtful responses of the CelticsBlog membership, I need to take a moment and thank the Basketball Gods for this here weblog.
I may be more of a reader with occasional outbursts, but CelticsBlog is the rare example of an online community that enhances the experience of watching games and being a fan.
So thanks.
/gush
by Hal Jordan on Apr 6, 2009 11:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Hal (and to our many fine readers/commenters)
I’m glad you enjoyed it and feel like you gain something from the experience of coming here.
Your voice is always welcome.
-sw
Manuel Aristides Ramirez is the greatest hitter I've ever seen.
by Steve Weinman on Apr 6, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 























