Celtics fall to Hawks for third straight time
by Jimmy Toscano on Jan 11, 2010 10:04 PM EST
in Boston Celtics Games
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PrintA day after beating the Toronto Raptors for the third straight time this season, the Boston Celtics, playing without Kevin Garnett and Rasheed Wallace, fell to the Atlanta Hawks for the third straight time, 102-96.
Up 55-46 at halftime, the Celtics could not put the Hawks away in the second half, allowing them to score 31 points and trail by only three points going into the fourth quarter. The third quarter was also when Doc Rivers was thrown out of the game for arguing a controversial Glen Davis flagrant foul call. The Celtics were up 10 points at the time of the foul with 6:16 left to play, but the Hawks tied the game up with under a minute to go in the quarter.
Doc Rivers stated that he can't remember ever being that mad during a game, but even so, he should have kept his calm.
"I told the guys after the game, number one, that's always on me," Rivers admitted. "I don't think I should ever get thrown out. So I don't care how bad you think the calls are at the moment. You know, somehow you have to try to ring yourself back in. Honestly, I reacted- I was so shocked at what they were calling- I thought... they were talking about ‘was it a breakaway or not?' The last thing I had in my mind- I didn't even think flagrant."
It seemed that after Doc's ejection, things spiraled downward from there. The momentum and energy in the arena shifted from the Celtics players to the Hawks players and the Celtics found themselves in a dogfight for the remainder of the game.
"It was just a terrible situation, whether it was justified or not," said Ray Allen. "We're up ten and now all of a sudden it seemed like it was a two point game and the ball wasn't even dribbled. I hated watching that- the lack of a good call can result in that much of a difference in a game like that. Up until that point we were playing well and after that the game did change."
Tom Thibodeau took over for Rivers, but failed to make a single substitution for the entire time he coached. Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Glen Davis, and Kendrick Perkins played the remaining 18:16 of the game. Brian Scalabrine, who played arguably his best game of the season, sat for the remainder of the game.
"All competitive athletes want to be out there and play," said Scalabrine. "But we had a lineup that was working. Offensively we were doing great; you know defensively we struggled a little bit."
It looked as though the Celtics ran out of gas towards the end of the game, and the Hawks had too many scoring threats down the stretch. Joe Johnson finished the game with 36 points on 14-25 from the field, and Jamal Crawford added 17 points, all coming in the second half.
"They have two closers now- they have Joe Johnson and now they have (Jamal) Crawford as well," said Rivers. "So they have two closers. And you know that makes it very tough especially if you get into a one point game with them you know its very difficult to get stops against guys who don't need a play to score they just need the ball and go (isolation)."
The Hawks switched to a zone defense in the second half, and overall the team responded exactly how Coach Mike Woodson wanted them to.
"We didn't double as much on the low block when it went in," Woodson said. "We picked and chose what guys we wanted to double. Our switches were a lot better. We weren't leaving the 3-point shooter."
"You know, a tail of two halves," Pierce said. "I mean, we played with a lot more energy, we moved the ball a lot more. When they went to that zone, it kind of- it messed up a little of our motion. I just thought we just didn't execute. I thought the zone really stagnated us. They had a lot of switching, and we didn't go to the second and third options I thought we went more to one pass and isolation and that's not our basketball."
The fact that the Celtics have lose three games to the Hawks may strike fear in some people's eyes, but to be fair, the Celtics haven't exactly been the beacon of good health as of late. It is too early to be scared of any one team, and the Celtics effort tonight without Kevin Garnett and Rasheed Wallace was commendable.
"It shouldn't concern you, it's not like I'm fearing them," said Kendrick Perkins. "Like if we had to get up with them in the playoffs it's not like ‘oh we got the Hawks' or something like that, you know they beat us three times so hats off to them, but I don't fear them I don't think nobody on our team fears them but I think that's the problem. I think they think we're their rivalry but we don't think they're our rivalry."
Perkins makes an interesting point that the Hawks might look at this matchup differently than the Celtics do. The little brother is always trying to compete with the older brother, and in this case, the young Hawks fit that role well against the veteran Celtics. Now that the Hawks have done more than prove themselves a worthy opponent in this league, maybe the Celtics won't be so quick to not deem them a rival.
Paul Pierce is still not all the way back to where he was before he had the right knee infection, and Glen Davis is still not where he wants to be. Kevin Garnett and Rasheed Wallace are both set to return in the next ten days and Marquis Daniels is on track to return around the All-Star break. Let's wait to see how this team performs with the right rotation in there before we hit the panic button.
- The Celtics led for the majority of the game, but couldn't hold on in the end. Hawks have now beaten the Celtics three times this season, twice at home. The Celtics played a great first half of basketball, but once Rivers was ejected in the third, it seemed like they lost their mojo.
- Boston, already without KG, waswithout Rasheed Wallace tonight, who was out with a sore left foot. Brian Scalabrine started in place of Wallace, and played his best game of the season.
- Rondo looked comfortable out there running the offense (26 points, 7 assists). He blew by defenders on the way to the rim all game.
- Doc Rivers was ejected in the third quarter, and assistant coach Armond Hill was also given a technical for arguing a flagrant foul call given to Glen Davis (Brian Scalabrine states that all Armond Hill said was, "He was going up with the ball"). Celtics were up 10 at the time, and ended the quarter up 3. Don't think I've ever seen Doc Rivers that angry before.
- The Celtics had led the entire game until 5.25 left in the fourth quarter.
- Glen Davis provided the only production off the bench tonight.
- Joe Johnson (36 points) was on fire tonight and Al Horford and Josh Smith put up big +'s in the +/- category.
- Jamal Crawford score all his 17 points in the second half, making up for Bibby's poor performance.
- Celtics could only score 16 points in the fourth quarter.
- Hawks took 15 more free throws than the Celtics did, and hit nine more.
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Crazy Hawks have our number..
"No I’m not KG. Not at all, but I’m Big Baby Glen Davis from LSU, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I’m not the Big Ticket. I’m the Ticket Stub. Don’t count the Ticket Stub out. You might need the ticket to get in the game, but you leave with the ticket stub, because you’ll never forget this game."
Thibs even worst than Doc...
No rest for the weary five since the technicals.
"No I’m not KG. Not at all, but I’m Big Baby Glen Davis from LSU, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I’m not the Big Ticket. I’m the Ticket Stub. Don’t count the Ticket Stub out. You might need the ticket to get in the game, but you leave with the ticket stub, because you’ll never forget this game."
agreed
I just mentioned that in another post….that lineup played so long and was tired and couldn’t make some shots at the end of the game.
A pumpkin Men!
costly minutes! Thibs could have use TA, since PP is too tired, just standing in the 4Q and just passing the ball!
I am not a Scal fan...
But Baby was so horrible tonight why he was not benched in favor of Scal in the 4th is bewildering!
What exactly was so horrible about Baby's play?
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
he was -13 today...
only pluses today were tony allen and scalabrine and they were both sitting down
by matthewmafa on Jan 11, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Raw plus-minus is a significantly flawed stat
Just as you noted, since the team lost, just about everyone who played big minutes was in the minus column. Greatest negative magnitude does not a game evaluation make.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
BBD was a sieve on defense.
He could not stop anybody from scoring.
I don't recall the Atlanta frontcourt doing a ton of damage tonight
He wasn’t great in help to the basket against guard penetration, but he wasn’t especially worse than any of our other bigs. And our guards deserve plenty of blame for that.
As far as anything went up against guards out on the perimter, I think that’s an issue more relevant to the switch-everything philosophy this team has on screens.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
You can blame it on the team defensive concept
but when BBD was on the floor, the team defensive concept gave up -26 pts.
Perk is the only one who had as big a negative (-13) but Perk was on the floor for way more minutes. BBD’s dmg occured in only 27 and a half minutes. BBD just did not have a very +efficient night.
What was horrible about Baby's play tonight was ...
he had a hard time scoring down low as he is struggled to get shots off without having them blocked.
His jumper was not sharp.
His rebounding was non existent.
His defense was also lackluster.
Also when he was on the floor the Hawks always made runs against the C’s.
You could say much the same thing about Perkins tonight
I lost track of how many turnovers he had. And, yes, I have grown to appreciate what Perkins brings to the team, but he struggles without either KG or Sheed alongside him.
Baby will eventually round into shape and gain back his sharpness. We just have to live with his shortcomings. There is a reason why he lasted until the second round.
by lemonade sky on Jan 12, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
"His jumper was not sharp"
He spent most of the game posting up (as many of us begged him to do more of last season) and took exactly one shot from outside the paint, a 22-footer which he missed.
As for struggling to score down low, he shot 4-for-5 in the paint and finished two baskets while getting fouled. Yes, his miss down low involved his shot being blocked, though I’m not sure what makes that any worse than any other miss.
Come on.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 12, 2010 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
My point was.....
Baby’s jumper was off tonight as has been the case in most of the games so far since his return.
Also yes, Baby did make some low post shots, but attempted just as many which he had trouble getting off and even had some blocked.
This has been a chronic problem with Baby , his lack of length and jumping ability gives him a hard time scoring in the low post against long, athletic jumping big man like the Hawks had last night.
I do not consider having a power forward struggle to get his shot off and have it blocked so many time (I bet he leads the league for a power forward) as simply a “missed shot” .
Put the that problem along with his lack of rebounding and I think Baby has trouble playing in the low post which I think it is a problem for the team considering he is our power forward (even though aback up one ) and should be able to play more effectively in the low post.
Agree...
Baby to no fault of his own has a size problem since he is shorter then most other power forwards (he is listed at 6’9" but is closer to 6’8".
Also he can not jump and that makes matters worser when he faces long, jumping power forwards.
Baby is a below the rim player if their ever was one and struggles to get over the rim for anything, be it rebounds, shot releases or even blocking shots.
Unless he becomes a jump shooting big man like he was for us in the playoffs last year, Baby I think will continue to struggle playing in the low post like he did last night, so far this year and in his career due to his lack of height and jumping ability which will be hard to impossible to remedy.
And my point was
that nothing that happened last night substantiates either of those first two points.
He took exactly one jumper. You have no idea if the jumper was off last night. 0-for-1 is simply not a sufficient sample size.
“Even had some blocked.” False. He had one shot blocked. Even if you feel like he had several shots blocked based on your recall of the game, it takes four seconds to look at the box score (see the “BA” column) or the game log to figure that out.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 12, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Baby is struggling, its clear and evident............
1st)
Baby did not make the only jumper he took last night.
Baby jumper has been off since his return this year.
That means Baby is struggling with his jumper.
2nd)
Baby due to his lack of height and arm wing span last night had problems getting shots off since the taller big man were giving him problems.
Baby has had problems getting his shots off in the past this year and last year also.
That means Baby has is having a chronic problem getting his shots off.
3rd)
Baby I recall got his shot blocked a couple of times last night ,some blocks are not credited to players when more than one defensive players gets a piece of the ball ( like I think was the case last night).
Baby has been getting his shots blocked regularly in previous games this year and last year.
This means Baby has a chronic problem of getting a lot of his shots blocked in the low post.
4th)
Babys rebounding was poor last night.
Babys rebounding has been poor so far this year and last year as well.
That means Baby has a chronic problem with poor rebounding.
5th) Babys defense was poor last night.
I think Babys defense so far this year has been bad.
I think his defense is a chronic problem since he lacks speed and does not have the length to defend in the low post against taller. longer power forwards, thats why his block shot stats are so poor for a power forward.
So as you can see Baby is struggling with various important aspects of his game, how you can argue otherwise is puzzling?
Perhaps if you rereard my posts
you’ll find that I haven’t been arguing with you about the Infant’s performance all year, merely about your claims regarding last night’s game.
Yes, he has been getting a high percentage of his shots blocked this season, and yes he hasn’t the shot ball well so far this year.
But no, neither of those things were issues last night. That’s all I’m saying and all I’ve said throughout this discussion.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 12, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I said in my earlier posts..
and will repeat :
Baby played horrible in my opinion in the game last night.
-He had a tough time getting his shot off (It was blocked and changed on many occasions).
-His rebounding was poor as has been the case so far this year.
-His defense was poor as has been the case so far this year.
If you want to say he played good thats fine, tahts not what I saw, but you have your opnion and I have mine and we can agree to disagree on his play last night.
I am glad though you agree with me Baby is getting a high % of his shots blocked and is not shooting that well either.
I think we can also agree that we hope Baby improves his game, because the C’s are going to need him while KG and Rasheed are both out hurt.
I don't think Baby has played bad this whole year
imho he’s had some good moments.
But he was terrible last night.
I agree with you and fordescort Baby was terrible last night
I also agree with fordescort though that Baby did not just has struggle last night but has ever since returning from his injury.
His jumper is off, his rebounding is poor and his defense is poor.
Also when he is on the floor the opposing teams seem to always play better than us.
Hopefully it is just rust and he will snap out of the funk soon.
Just in case my first point above wasn't clear,
I probably should have added the phrase “Sample size.” after my comment about Davis’ one missed 22-footer.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 12, 2010 1:14 AM EST up reply actions
Scal unfortunately had 4 fouls
So Thibs hesitated putting him back in, but he was WAY better on defense than BBD – Scal should have been in during the last 5-6 minutes.
Scal posted a +/- of +9 in 20 minutes of play. Scored 9 and shut his man down.
BBD scored 13 but the defense just didn’t work while he was in there ended up with a -13 in 27:31.
Small correction, please...
I would change “Thibs hesitated putting him back in” to “Thibs was in the middle of a massive stroke which caused him to forget he was coaching and to not make a single substitution for the remainder of the game.”
Or “Scal was taken out when he got his 4th foul, after which Thibs became the coach. Unfortunately, Thibs was also a deer caught in the headlights and didn’t make a single substitution, ever.”
Just a reminder....
No swearing, trolling etc. I’m guessing people aren’t going to be too happy with this one.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
I just don't understand why we can't beat this team.....
by wingate on Jan 11, 2010 10:10 PM EST via mobile reply actions
You can start with the fact that we had neither Garnett nor Sheed tonight
I don’t understand how anyone would expect to beat the Hawks without thowe two guys.
seriously...
missing your best 2 big men and you expect to just win? its not that easy… KG is the heart and soul of this team
by matthewmafa on Jan 11, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
KG played in the first home loss
Will he be able to contribute by the playoffs?
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
3 u mean??
and come on stop blaming officals..
by matthewmafa on Jan 11, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
LOL - yeah, 3
The officiating was so bad, it felt like the playoffs …
and why shouldn't I blame the officials
they sucked. THey blew it big time.
We criticize coaches and players when they screw up. This crew screwed up massively.
THey deserve every bit of criticism from us fans as we wish to deal out because the Coaches and Players aren’t allowed to.
because had the celtcis had more then 16 pointsi n the fourth quarter they would have won..
come on… the refs did not LOSE the game
by matthewmafa on Jan 11, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
You are kidding me? They refs spotted the Hawks 5 pts on one play.
And then gave them another 5 on 3 miscalls later in the fourth.
You are asking the Celtics to compensate for those points – plus they had to play while in foul trouble.
Hawks shot 33 FT attempts to only 18 by the Celtics. Yet the Celtics spent the first 3 quarters driving in the paint – they just couldn’t get a call.
yeahhhh
your kinda right tho.. it is tough to overcome something like that..
by matthewmafa on Jan 11, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
Not even a 2X ft margin
Compared to game 2 of the ‘08 finals’ n3.8X in the Celtiucs’ favor./././
Come on guys – it’s just a regular season game
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:21 AM EST up reply actions
Wow - what happened to that post?
Should have read “Compared to game 2 of the ‘08 finals’ 3.8X in the Celtics’ favor…”
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
The difference in that game
was that in game 2 of the 2008 finals the Celtics dominated the paint and earned those FTs. They were far more physical in that game than the Lakers. Powe attempted 13 of those 38 Celtic free throw attempts. Where do you think he was on the court? The free throw line? He only plays within 2 feet of the basket. If the ball is in his hands on offense, he either scores or gets fouled. Meanwhile, the Lakers basically stood around outside doing
In last night’s game, even during the first 3 quarters when the Celtics were controlling the game, they could not get a blocking call, despite repeatedly attacking in the paint. Instead, the fouls were already headed well in favor of the Hawks.
“nba is the worst” – I know you like to always jump to the defense of the officials. Or at least you always belittle anybody’s complaints about them. Do you believe they are infallible? Do you think that just because they blew it in some prior game in the Celtic’s favor that somehow makes it okay for them to blow it later against them? If they sucked, they sucked. You aren’t saying anything that refutes that they sucked big wads last night and basically decided the outcome of the game. I’m just not sure I get what your message is supposed to be on these boards.
We blame the refs, because they deserve it
Call it like it is…
i would blame the coaches more then the refs
if doc hadnt have gotten thrown out… then maybe everything would have been different.. sometimes you just need to keep your cool
by matthewmafa on Jan 11, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
maybe everything would have been different
maybe. It wasn’t working to that point. Did you miss the hand on perk’s face by pachulia, pulling his head backwards that was NOT called a flagrant?
Doc is human. Getting mad at ineptitude is pretty human.
Face it, the refs were inept. You can claim that the Celtics still had a chance to win it ‘in spite of the refs’ and technically that may be correct. But that does nothing to change the fact that the refs had a huge affect on the game. Probably on the order of an 11-13 pt swing.
Look, I know this is "trolling" or whatever, because I am a Hawks fan
but the refs were literally GIVING BOSTON THE GAME in the first half. Yes, the techs hurt Boston, but that was Doc’s fault. The Celtics were still in firm control of the game until Doc flipped. The flagrant was a legit call, and much more a flagrant than the one called on Zaza, which was actually a jump ball.
And, oh yeah, Perkins walks literally every time he gets the ball
it is criminal that he gets away with it
and horford squats in the paint for 5 minutes at a time
like those were game changers
so close to not getting banned.
…but close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.
later.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
he knew he was trolling and did it anyway.
I was pretty clear at the top of the comments, no trolling allowed.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
I guess that's like the posts that start with
“I don’t meant to be a jerk but " and then proceeds to be a jerk.
Just because he's a Hawks fan?
Seems like people around here should be able to take a viewpoint from the other side from time to time. And he’s right about Perkins walking often. On the other hand, the flagrant on Zaza was well deserved, at least in today’s NBA. Pretty soon if Stern has his way, the game will get as soft as the NFL is regarding laying a hand on the quarterbacks.
by lemonade sky on Jan 12, 2010 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
He defined "trolling"
…as taking the Hawks’ side. Not exactly a ban-worthy offense. But hey, mods are like refs… right or wrong, they’re in charge.
yes mods are refs
they shouldn’t be in charge though, the people should be in charge, the fans should be in charge. Is this the United States of America, or Communism?
Who’s side do you take the 1972 USA Olympic basketball team who refused their silver medals, or the communist regime that cheated to get the USSR the gold?
What is a mod anyway?
no....
I define trolling as saying something specifically to get a negative reaction out of other commenters. Everyone is welcome to come here, there just needs to be a certain standard of conduct.
But thanks for trying to define my actions DRJ1, really I appreciate it.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
In that case...
…yes, saying that Baby’s flagrant was more obvious than Zaza’s – a patently false statement – could be construed as designed to elicit a negative reaction.
I had thought that a visitor had to be OBNOXIOUS in some way to deserve a ban. But, I suppose, that can’t be true, since I’m still posting……………. :)
He certainly shuffled his feet on that play before the foul
And compared, for example, to the Rondo against Miller in last year’s playoffs…
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
How were the refs giving the game to Boston
when the Hawks were going to the FT line more often? And had fewer personal fouls called on them?
I am not going to get into the argument, because we all know that the NBA
refs are the most corrupt and/or inept organization on earth, but the calls were bad for both squads. Doc flipped for no reason. The Hawks were totally lethargic and Boston was in firm control of the game, even with the flagrant call.
You mean when zaza grabbed perkins by the face and held pulled back? come on...
Follow me @jimmy_toscano
by Jimmy Toscano on Jan 12, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
Tommy Point
i would blame the coaches more then the refs if doc hadnt have gotten thrown out… then maybe everything would have been different.. sometimes you just need to keep your cool
==
Correct
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
we can't beat them because we refuse to change our strategy
Atlanta consistently makes Boston look slow and old, and the C’s play into that by going into isolation ball for most of the second half. What?
by milt palacio's shot on Jan 12, 2010 4:37 AM EST up reply actions
hmmm...
“Flagrant Fouls:
These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant foul, 1 and 2. A flagrant foul 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player winds-up and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 has the components of a flagrant foul 1 and is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a wind-up motion, hard contact and a follow through. Both fouls carry a penalty of two free throws and the team that was fouled retains possession. A flagrant foul 2 also results in an ejection of the player committing the foul once it is reviewed by instant replay. A player also is ejected if he commits two flagrant foul penalty 1’s in the same game.”
I don’t think so
Correct, but...
…the definition of F1 has evolved to where now, any significant contact of hand or arm to the neck or head that results in a fall or obvious damage = at least an F1.
Unless it's Rondo in the playoffs from behind to Miller's mouth
Ridiculous
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
Aside from that its completely debatable whether Rondo was going for Miller or not
Just what is it, exactly that you are trying to say?
If the Rondo/Miller call was a bad call – does that make last night’s call OK?
Or are you degenerating into trolling? Trying to catch people in hypocrisy? Does it make you feel clever?
Sorry guy, but it's impossible...
… to account for every bad call ever made in NBA history when posting an opinion about a specific call that just happened. The ability to compare to past calls is effectively endless… and a ridiculous waste of time. No really… it’s ridiculous.
The next time someone gets an arm around a Celtic's neck on the fast break,
I’m going to be mighty peeved and screaming for a flagrant.
So I’ve got no problem with the one called tonight when one of our guys did it to one of their guys.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
what about the 33 free throws vs 18?
oh, sorry, atlanta took the ball inside. right
I think that one depends on the angle.
From the baseline, it looked like Glen tried to reach around, anticipating that was where the ball would be first, made contact accidently and then came back and went after the ball on the near side. From the back view, which was where both refs were because they were trailing the play (poor job on their part – they had enough time to get down the court), it looked like Glen clobbered him – hence why they got that call.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
forget the flagrant, 33-18
you can’t win a game with that disadvantage at the line
I’m not saying they were great, just explaining the flagrant.
And while the refs certainly hurt the Celtics, they were tied with 3 minutes to play and did not execute down the stretch. The Cs had a chance to win and did not, and the refs were not the reason in those last 3 minutes.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
they were tied with 3 minutes to go
because of the FT differential. if the game is called evenly, it doesn’t get that close.
the NBA where “computer assist” happens.
atlanta beat the spread by two points btw.
You are forgetting about the part
where our best big man of the day (Scal) was on the bench with 4 early fouls and our most effective shooter (Ray) was hindered from playing defense on Johnson or driving to the hoop by 4 fouls and the rest of all the starters had at least 3 fouls.
Meanwhile, none of the Hawk starters had more than 2. The only ATL players with 3 were Crawford and Evans (who was only on the floor 13 minutes).
Its not just the given points that had to be made up. The foul disparity affects the way you can play the game. It takes away your physical approach.
So how about 38-10 IN THE FINALS!!!
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
Take a look a few columns to the right on the box score
and you’ll see the difference in personal fouls was only 7 (28 committed by the Lakers and 21 by the Celtics). If you still think it’s such a travesty check out the same stat for game 3 of that series. The Celtics committed 5 more fouls than the Lakers in that game yet the Lakers only shot 12 more free throws. The style of play is what caused the FT discrepancy. The Celtics were the aggressors, the Lakers were not.
Atlanta plays dirty just like Missouri teams play dirty when they have to play Kansas teams
Is it Soup Yet?
Cute, Po
Congrats on the performance against the Vols, by the way. :-D
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
We seem to run out of gas (Tibbs?)
and creative offense…..we reverted back to PP only type offiense…..on the bright side ….if there is one Scali played very well
Refs continue to suck,,,,,and in this case they stole our Mo but we never blame a loss on a call in the third quarter.
I am bent but not broken………
Is it Soup Yet?
hey that’s what I had to say too!
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
really?
Why did I just get that mba? That was a waste of time.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
shoulda called me LOL
Congrats on the MBA …..though…..I used the Cliff (Livingston) notes version…..it’s paid off pretty well
Peace my brother
Is it Soup Yet?
A couple of points
Thibs – You’re allowed to use subs buddy.
The Celtics really stopped playing in the 4th. They seemed to be doing a walk-through out there. Maybe all the injuries are catching up to them.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
And...
Where was the offense? Every set was pick and roll, throw the ball back to the screener who had a mis-match. Then the screener (Perk) would get doubled, turn it over, or force a bad shot.
just terrible.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
That was the biggest problem I had
In the fourth quarter the offense stood around almost everhy possession and each shot was taken with like 5 seconds or less on the shot clock.
TA?
What was up with Tony Saalmon-Mash. Sstill sick?
by Tenacious D on Jan 11, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah...
I love both of them but Perkins and Davis both take forever to get into a post move, don’t they?
I thought Perk should have kicked it back out a couple of times in the critical 4th quarter.
What happened to Pierce? He wasn’t really featured at all in the 4th.
They got it into his (Pierce's) hands a few times, but the offense just stopped moving
BBD was moving in slow motion and nobody was doing anything to help clear space for Pierce. They didn’t even set picks.
See PP throw the ball away?
… in crunch time, trying to make a sideways pass through traffic? I thought he looked absolutely exhausted at that point, and just couldn’t care anymore.
I wonder… how come a guy like Captain Pierce doesn’t go up to Thibs… who was clearly out to lunch at that point… and SAY, you know, OUT LOUD… “Hey Thibs. WAKE THE HELL UP. I’m exhausted out here… how about a sub?”
Yeah
in his comments Pierce halfway admitted as much, but no one wants to come out and say it publicly and I guess they shouldn’t. Poor form if they do.
Resume not burnished
Ride the starters out? Thibs did not exactly polish his resume for a head coaching job.
by Tenacious D on Jan 11, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
don't understand Thibs logic
scal had some extra minutes to put out there. i mean he started this game for a reason and definitely showed why. I thought for one second that Thibs didn’t know he could sub. When does Quisy comeback again? Oh to have a healthy squad…..
"I was like a kid in a candy store running around with his head cut off ,,,," 0_o
by CaliforniaGreen on Jan 12, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Celtics lost tonight because of 5 reasons
1) Bad officiating (it was horrible)
2) Baby stunk up the joint (his play since his return has also been horrible)
3) The Celtics did not have along, strong, athletic wing defender to put on long, strong, athletic 6’7" Johnson.
4) The Celtics did not use their bench and the starters were out of gas in the 4th.
Johnson
Johnson got to use his off arm to ward off all defenders all game long. No one can guard that.
Maybe
Johnson was using his arm at times but most of the time his shots were clean and legit.
Fordescort is correct the C’s need a tall, strong wing defender to defend against big, strong scoring guards and small forwards like Johnson.
This is a must before we head into the playoffs if we want our best shot at a title this year.
Hopefully Danny can acquire one come the trade deadline using either Scal or TA’s valuable expiring contracts as trade bait.
by leothetiger on Jan 11, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I have to agree on Johnson
He was money.
He did benefit somewhat because the C’s started playing real soft in the 4th – a lot of guys with 4 & 3 PFs.
He's called Marquis Daniels
…currently injured, but he’s that tall wing defender we are sorely missing. The C’s have the horses to beat anyone, just gotta get those horses on the floor at the same time.
- JoeB
Yes Daniels is tall....
but he is not strong enough to defend against the tall, strong, small forwards like Johson and Lebron etc.
Yes he can defend long, athletic, lightweight forwards but not the stronger ones.
Joe Johnson is a terrific player who made some very difficult shots down the stretch.
But while you’re bemoaning the lack of a “long, strong athletic wing defender” to put on him, it might be worth noting how he got some of his points in the first half: Celtics guards forgetting on multiple occasions (Rondo and Ray each did at least once that I can remember vividly, might have been a couple of others as well) that they were guarding the other team’s best player, helping away from him to the paint and then being nowhere near close enough to challenge when the ball was kicked back to Johnson for a right-corner three.
That’s got to do with defensive philosophy, not personnel.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah - the gamble is that they can still get back fast enough to contest
and normally they do. Even tonight, they did get in his face sometimes and he STILL made some amazing shots. When a shooter has that high-arc shot working for them like that, they are really hard to defend.
Even so, their is no denying the fact .....
that long, tall, strong and athletic wing players (be it small forwards or big guards) are killing the C’s this year as proven again tonight.
With all due respect this has everything to do with personnel and not philosophy and must be remedied ASAP (by acquiring a wing long, strong, athletic wing defender) before the C’s head into the playoffs or we will be in trouble.
Great point fordescort...
Your analysis is right on!
And since you've pushed this multiple times already in this thread,
what is the issue with the Infuriated Infant?
The guy made a couple of very nice moves in the post (though he held the ball for longer than I would have liked), shot a fine percentage from the field (4-of-6), knocked down his freebies (5-of-6), limited turnovers (just one), drew a few fouls offensively and took a charge.
His rebound rate has always been disappointing. That was still the case tonight, but that’s nothing particularly new.
“Stunk up the joint” seems like quite a harsh assessment for his play tonight.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
Just throwing this out there on BBD – he’s been over penetrating lately. He needs to not focus on getting to the cup, and just take the 5-7 foot jumper. He can’t elevate enough to get over real bigs.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
BBD's problems were on defense.
Yeah, he scored 13 offensively – but he was terrible on team defense and ended up -13 for the night.
He could not seem to stay between his man and the hoop.
agreed.
i thought baby played pretty decent, especially towards the end. the ball was definitely in his hands more than i thought should have been, but he was doing the best he could i thought considering.
by faithfulcelticfan34 on Jan 12, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Again...
Baby has not just struggled tonight, but has been struggling since his return from his hand injury.
He can not get his shots off in the low post due to lack of height and jumping ability.
His lack of rebounding for a power forward is troubling.
His defense also has been very poor.
Now is it due to his injury, rust?
Maybe, but either way Baby is not playing well in my opinion and must start contributing more to help the club, especially now that he will be getting extra playing time with Garnett out hurt..
His play since the injury may be another story,
as for tonight, I didn’t notice much trouble getting his shots off. Seemed like he did a fine job creating space for himself and finishing in the post while getting to the foul line as well.
His lack of rebounding for a power forward has always been troubling. That’s not unique to tonight or his comeback from injury.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 12, 2010 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
Thats my main point ....
Baby’s play since the injury has been poor which was proven again I think in last nights game.
Just because he made some shots last night does hide the fact he struggled to get some off as well and he even had a couple blocked in last nights game and in games since his return.
His rebounding last night was poor as has been the case in other games since his return.
His defense tonight was bad as has been the case in other games since his return.
If you want to disagree with me Baby had a bad game last night, thats your opnion but I respectively disagree for the reasons mentioned above.
But I hope we can agree that Baby’s has been struggling since his return from his injury and he must improve his play since the club needs him with Garnett out.
Even Doc was quoted the other day that he is not happy so far of the play of Baby since his return and I agree 100% with him.
Great points fordescort
Baby is struggling offensively, defensively and on rebounding since his return.
Let not forget Baby wanted big bucks this off season since he though he deserved it.
So far he has not shown he deserves it.
Time will tell in the future if he does at that time.
He had one shot blocked last night
I’ve clarified this above.
Not a couple. Not some. One.
It takes almost no time to look at a box score to verify this.
Please stop distributing misinformation.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 12, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Baby had shots ....
last night where he could not get them off, were close to being blocked and were changed due to the fear of being blocked and that were actually blocked (you saw one I saw several) .
The point his he due to his lack of length and jumping ability had this problem last night, has had it so far this year and has had the problem since he entered the NBA.
He over the last few years has had his shot blocked more often then any other Celtic.
I repeat Baby gets his shot blocked more than any other player on the team, which is the point of my argument.
Its not his fault but to say this is not a chronic problem when it is evident it is puzzling?
I never said it wasn't a chronic problem
In fact, he’s up near the top of the league in percentage of shots blocked, which evidences exactly what you’re saying.
But specifically last night, it was not a problem. That’s all I’ve said.
And as for your “you saw one” line, let me please clarify that this is not some matter of opinion when it comes to whether or not Baby’s shots were blocked last night. It’s fact, as verified by the statistician.
As for shots “close to being blocked and changed due to fear of being blocked,” that’s another story. But that’s not what you said initially in re: “even had a couple blocked.”
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 12, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
If....
you want to get technical and say he had only 1 shot officially blocked and it makes you feel better go ahead.
Baby last night made many , low post scoring attempts where he had his shot changed and blocked due to his lack of length, jumping ability and wing span.
Be it official blocked shot or changed shots I think you know what I am getting at that my main argument is that due to his lack of height and jumping ability Baby had a tough game getting his shot off, which has been a habit so far this year and since he entered the NBA.
I am glad you agree with me that it is a chronic problem he has.
Powe was blocked more last season...
last year. Look it up on 82games.
Davis 13%
Powe 16%
That’s not to say that Davis isn’t having his difficulties so far this season. He is being blocked at a whopping 39% right now but he’s also scoring at a decent eFG of .556 on ‘close’ shots.
Davis’ role has changed this year, he’s coming off an injury and will take a while to figure it all out.
You and fordescort are dead on....
Baby is struggling so far this year.
I think on the boards and defensively more than anything.
But its clear that he is also having a big problem shooting in the low post since alot of his shots are being changed and being blocked, since he lacks the height and athletic jumping ability of the other power forwards who defend him.
For a power forward that is not something you really want to see happen often which is the case with Baby.
Since he lacks height and jumping ability hopefully he can work on some low post moves like fakes etc to help him get his shot off better and avoid it being blocked.
Amazing. I got home with two minutes left in the third quarter.
Turned the game on, and the same 5 guys played the last 14 minutes. That is kind of nuts.
yeah...not the best audition tape for Thibs.
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
or the rest of the assistants
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
Disapointing.
To me, this was honestly one of the most fun games to watch in a while so it’s disapointing that they lost. We can blame the officials all we want, but we didn’t win because of how we played from that point on. I was hoping that might give the motivation to come back even more, i was wrong. Definitely thought no subs made a huge difference too.
by faithfulcelticfan34 on Jan 11, 2010 10:13 PM EST reply actions
There is NO understanding the Celtics
No KG, no Sheed, no Daniels. And they play one of their best halves of the year. Perfect Q1. Scal… unbelievable: make the man an All-Star. Rondo…. terrific. Team D… nearly perfect. All this in a game featuring some of the worst officiating we have ever seen.
Q3: too ridiculous to talk about. Q4: Fatigue set in, presumably because Thibs did not see fit to make ANY changes to the lineup. And Thibs inexplicably kept Scal out of the game, despite the fact that he was playing out of his mind.
Cs lose, but that’s on the refs. I think they proved that this team can win because it’s SMARTER than the other teams, especially on D. They can beat us, but only when they have 8 guys playing 5, and only when their top two players shoot about 100% in the 4th quarter. The Cs don’t need their All-Stars to play long minutes, or even every game. They can win anyway…. even with Scal starting.
And when the whole team’s healthy (uhh… is that even possible? I can’t remember)… just fuhgetaboutit. Hand out the trophy, because nobody’s going to stop them then.
this is so true!
we can beat this “athletic team”. last game with hawks everyone like panicking that we wont be able to stand with this team in the playoffs! Joe cant continue shooting @ 100% but we can play D.
Im telling you, this Hawks team would play crap in their next game..
"No I’m not KG. Not at all, but I’m Big Baby Glen Davis from LSU, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I’m not the Big Ticket. I’m the Ticket Stub. Don’t count the Ticket Stub out. You might need the ticket to get in the game, but you leave with the ticket stub, because you’ll never forget this game."
yeah
and they have no chance against a team with KG starting and rasheed coming off the bench
by matthewmafa on Jan 11, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
As it was in game 1
I seem to recall an 11-pt margin for the Hawks
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Anti-game Ball to Thibs
Thibideau really crapped his pants out there. The team was obviously dead tired. I mean it was a joke. The Cs also didn’t have any adjustments to the Hawks not playing Rondo and the hard doubles on Perk. Anyway, tired players are dumb players, not really surprising what happened.
by Berkcelt on Jan 11, 2010 10:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
what's up with the iron man routine?
seriously between tibedeau running his players into the ground and the coaches getting 3 T’s I’ll put this loss on the coaching staff. why not tony allen on JJ? why no scal? he hit 3 3’s so you sit him for the rest of the game. Pierce and ray were no where to be found in crunch time .I keep waiting for ray allen to go for 30. we really needed that tonight. In the second halfI thought rondo held the ball too long and forced too many 3’s .But some of that was probably fatigue as was pierce’s and ray’s lack of scoring down the stretch
It’s definitely on the coaches. Hard to say if Doc deserved to get tossed though, that seemed quick. I don’t know what Hill was thinking getting a tech though.
I think a lot of it was fatigue, plus there was no adjustments. The Hawks were blatantly playing off Rondo and it was creating bad late in the shot clock situations and we never adjusted. It was just plain stupid not to sub anyone in the 4th. So frustrating to watch.
Neither were getting the ball
Sort of hard to score without the ball. Rondo seemed intent on getting both Perkins and Baby the ball. More than once he totally ignored Pierce. I think that’s why they had Pierce bring the ball up in the last minute which resulted in an open shot for Ray. Face it, the guys taking shots in crunch time were the guys Atlanta wanted taking shots. This is where we missed Doc.
If Perk traveled any more tonight he would have needed to stop over at the Holiday Inn Express
sheesh
Is it Soup Yet?
Perk's TOs are not new
Only Rondo has more TOs, and only by a hair. Perk travels a lot… and TOs a lot… hopefully this will improve during the season, and come under control by the playoffs.
While Perk's usage rate is his highest since his rookie year,
his turnover percentage (estimated turnovers per 100 plays, a more telling stat than turnovers per game) is actually a career low 21.7 on the season.
He was horrific in that regard tonight, but he’s improved overall.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Make that, lowest TOV% since his rookie year
in which he only played 10 games anyway.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Good point, but...
…the important issue is that he turns it over too often. If he’s improved, there’s reason to hope he can improve further… which we should all hope he does, soon. (I think he can figure out how to travel less, don’t you? He’s fouling less already….)
Of course, I'd always like to see Perk continue to improve
Just as you say, he’s made great strides, and I think there’s no reason to believe he can’t continue to get even better.
I simply wanted to add some clarity to his turnover stats on the season.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 12, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Were all of Perk's travels legit?
Hard to tell with a couple of the camera angles, but seemed suspect
Eh, they probably were. Although the refs were anticipating stuff like when Shelden Williams tied up Marvin Williams on the break.
Perk actually had a pretty blatant travel just before Pachulia raked his face which, said travel, obviously wasn’t called.
Travels by big men in the post are like holding calls in the NFL
They are sort of there to be called whenever the refs want to call them.
BS
Perk shuffles his feet quite a bit – that fact has nothing to do with other big men
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
BS???
Nyah-nyah! My subjective observation beats your subjective observation!
What is your problem?
Every big post player in the NBA i’ve ever watched shuffles their feet everytime the ball is in their hands. Hell practically EVERY player in the NBA does it and routinely it is ignored. I’m not saying the calls on Perk weren’t due – he moved, he should be called. But they are called pretty much like holding is in the NFL – when the ref feels like it.
What is wrong with big Baby ?
Is he still hurt?
He is really struggling out their since returning.
He is not rebounding well (never has really), his outside jumper is off and he is always getting his low post shot blocked.
He needs to start producing and contributing more for this club ASAP especially now while KG is out for awhile.
he is still rusty..
give him some time to shake off the rust.. and he will be back in 2009 playoff form
by matthewmafa on Jan 11, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
i hope so
he still looks overweight and his healing thumb can’t help his shot very much. I wonder if he has to pay back his bonus for losing the weight. That just doesn’t seem professional. Please bring back your 2009 playoff form.
"I was like a kid in a candy store running around with his head cut off ,,,," 0_o
by CaliforniaGreen on Jan 12, 2010 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
Perkins
1) Feed Perkins
2) Wait for the Double
3) Count to three
4) SEE TURNOVER.
we were dead in the 4th qtr
perk was grabbing his shorts, pierce and ray kept giving the ball up to perkins and davis and rondo kept getting picked off on defense. we had nothing left int he tanks and tibbs ran them into the ground. just a ridiculously bad coaching job by him and armond hill
Not Sweating It.
As infuriating as it was to watch ( and it seems that everytime I get a chance to watch the C’s on TV they lose…I live in NYC) I’m really not gonna sweat this game too much. We still haven’t even hit the halfway point of the season and after ALL of our players come back rested and healthy we will be hitting our stride.
Just in time for thaaaa…wait for it….PLAYOFFS!
Taaarrust me!
Not the best coaching by Thibs, but let the Hawks have their confidence in the regular season. It will just make it all sweeter to systematically take it away from them come May. Ya don’t wanna peak in January.
That's the problem
Will this team really be helathy for the playofffs and what seed will it get if the injuries keep piling up? I am very worried right now.
Thibs was bad... but what about Doc?
He’s always talking about Perk and Sheed taking responsibility, etc. What the hell did he say/do to get thrown out? Whatever it was…. he shouldn’t have said/done it.
Excellent point
Couldn’t agree more.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 11, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
Well at least he owned up to it
In his postgame press conference, he took the blame. Didn’t have much to say about Thibs decision to run the starters into the ground; of course I don’t expect him to throw his assistant(s) under the bus in the press.
baby actually kept us in the game
in the 4th because no one else had any gas left in the tank. this was not a good game by perk- at least 5 turnovers at last count including 3 walks and I think those were all good calls. I can get why they called the flagrant on baby because he hand hit crawford’s neck. of course if ray allen doesn’t commit another bad turnover that play would never have happened and we probably win the game. it’s a shame that we spoiled such a good effort. I have mixed feelings about ray allen right now. He bails us out of a lot of games but his turnovers and lack of scoring at times really hurt us. tonight was one of those nights where we needed more out of ray and he ws very passive. in the 4th qtr he stopped running and just planted himself in the corner
yes! he's the only Celts who got rest!
and very smart of him that he post up a lot!
sorry
I refuse to take the high road after this game. Everyone points to the flagrant but that just misses the bigger issue that Atlanta shot 33!!! FT’s to Boston’s 18. There’s the ball game right there. Terribly officiated game. Bennet Strikes again!
If you subscribe to Tommy's theory on refs
90% of the refs in the NBA either a) hate the Celtics or b) are incompetent. Of course, much as I hate to admit in, the Celtics being one of the chirpiest teams in the league doesn’t help their standing with the refs.
by lemonade sky on Jan 12, 2010 1:04 AM EST up reply actions
who cares
if they are chirpy? They shouldn’t even play after calls like this. They should walk off the court. The fans should go with them. The protest has to start somehwere.
Doc was absolutely correct in what he did. Who cares about one game vs the Hawks. Stop the game rigging, and I think Doc’s reaction at least made an effort for that to stop. What is he supposed to do be quiet and play the role of puppet?
That will only make the calls go even worse against the Celtics.
Its time to step up. Fans, players & coaches.
Now You're TALKIN' !
There’s an (understandable) negative reaction to criticizing officiating, regardless of how bad it is, people are quick to say it’s weak, crying, etc – WHICH INHIBITS PRESSURE ON STERN TO IMPROVE THINGS!
I’d like to see this situation get better – independent oversight would go a long way – but without the fans’ complaining, where’s the motivation for change going to come from?
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Correct
As a side note – there has been a noticeable change in the level of complaints from fans about NBA officiating over the past 2 years. I can remember when I first posted something about the refs… it was very uncool to do it then, considered “whining” and “excuse-making”. It’s not. Provided you tell the truth, I agree it’s important for us to complain. The people inside are not permitted to do it, so it’s up to us.
same ole same
Scal made a couple three pointers and got abused on the other end and that constitutes a good game!PP,perk,ray,and rondo all played over 40 minutes seems like every game if not all three ,two out of three have played over 40.I’m resigned to the fact that walker and giddens are actually fans that pay a lot of money to sit where they sit and get an honarary mention on the roster sheldon williams has sucks I don’t care what anyone says he has feet for hands,release him and sign sean williams he’s who we really wanted anyway.how many TO’s did ray have when he tried to dribble.You’d figure if I told you KG,sheed,marquis were injured PP was fresh off knee surgery ,rondo off a hamstring and the face that its january not june we’d cut these guy’s some slack and let walker and giddens come in and do good do had run jump whatever just give these guys 5 minutes rest for real what did this game really mean?honestly!
by reggie_35 on Jan 11, 2010 10:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Addressing ONLY your first sentence
… it’s completely wrong. Scal played great ball on BOTH ends… his D was every bit as good as his O… he basically played out of his mind for the time he was in.
Good thing Thibs kept him out of the game in the 2nd half.
Yep. Scal was a rock on defense. He completely shut Smith down.
Scal had the most efficient minutes of any Celtic in this game.
And the good news is Sheed is out a week
At least that’s a week in Celtics’ world. Who knows what it translates to in real life. This next 10 days is going to be tough to watch — I fear teh Dallas game next Monday.
what happened?
Celtics had this game under control until the Baby flagrant. Don’t know what Doc said, but getting thrown out killed us, because Thibodeau made zero adjustments out there. Hawks played smart, doubling Perkins. He isn’t used to that and struggled to move the ball so we could find the open man. Hawks also did a good job of packing the paint to prevent Rondo from penetrating after half time. Shut down Rondo and you shut down our offence. Celtics needed to make adjustments:
1) Should have used House to spread the floor instead
2) Tony Allen needed to be given a chance to shake things up and give Ray/ Pierce a breather
3) Scalabrine should have been reinserted in the 4th. Smith had one basket at half time. After Scal went out with his 4th foul, Smith suddenly had an impact.
4) More pressure needed to be applied to Crawford when he put the ball on the floor. Rondo/ Allen should have been able to take the Hawks out of their offence by pressuring the ball carrier.
5) Pierce/ Tony should have spent more time on Johnson.
6) More plays needed to be run for Ray – especially when Crawford was on him! What happened to those screens for Ray to curl for a jumper in the paint? Would have been a good change up. Don’t know why this didn’t happen.
its only just begun....jan is a brutal sked for an old and injury riddled boston team...they look old and tired folks
happens when your key bench guys are always hurt and the other bench guys stink
by celticinorlando on Jan 11, 2010 10:41 PM EST reply actions
Really, let's relax... they did great
… considering no KG, Sheed, Daniels, with Scal starting. A GREAT Q1, excellent first half. Yeah, the refs stole it in Q3, and the Cs got tired in Q4, and Thibs had a stroke, and Doc lost his cool…. but bottom line is that they DOMINATED the Hawks in the first half, with the half-team they had, by playing great team D and O. When they get the whole team together… nobody will beat them. (And the Hawks don’t worry me at all.)
look at this way.. at least we'll get a better draft pick
if we keep losing games! already 5 losses at home and most of them have been of the truly horrible variety like tonight. Injuries aside this team needs better composure and less yapping at the refs. What did doc say after the game? did he take the blame? he should have
Doc doesn't need another big fat fine
So he couldn’t possible blame the refs.
But fortunately we fans are free to call it as we see it. :-D
NBA is a Corrupt League
Sorry, but it has to be said. Frankly, I don’t know why I waste my time. Habit, I guess.
We love our guys
… and so we stick with them. They stick with it because it’s their livelihood. For millions of $, you would too. We on the other hand could walk away…. but as you say, there’s the habit. And also the love.
But still… it’s a good question. Why do we waste our time following an NBA team when the world in which they live is so toxic? When it’s “part of the game” to worry about what total miscreants like Joey Crawford and Bennett Salvatore are feeling or thinking. Wow… that’s really disgusting when you think about it.
DRJ1 is the best!!
Fans realize the truth!! Why are we always talking about the same refs, the same refs with such a clouded an jaded history of officating?
The Refs aren't Gunning for the Celtics
If the big money had been on the Hawks, the game would have been called the other way.
i know bennett is. but whatever. i hope he spends his $ wisely
by cheekmeister on Jan 11, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
Brick
You scare me. I was thinking that the bookies were making a killing on this one.
by Tom Halzack on Jan 12, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Doc and the Tommy H. syndrome kill the Celts
I saw the game, televised on NBA.TV and really an embarrasment by Doc, Tommy H, and the players’ response. All in all I’ve been proud of the Celts this year, not tonight.
Just a few days ago Doc publicly stated that Perk has to mature and quit gripping and getting these technicals.
All night once again, Tommy Heinsohn on national TV started his ranting on how the refs screw us, the worse game he’s seen reffed for so very long, etc.
It all cumulated in the 3rdQ with the Celts up 8 to 14. A Hawk player with Baby close to him coming down for a lay up went up and Baby ended up hitting him and the guy tumbled even though Baby tried to hold him up. On the replay, slow mo, it didn’t appear to be a flagrant foul, but why Baby got caught is that he had one hand around the guy’s neck while going up with the other hand to try to block the layup and the player fell from contact. An “iffy” call that could have gone either way. Doc blew his stack and got 2 Ts, tossed, the Hawk player got 2 free throws and the Hawks got the ball out of bounds. An 8 point lead was soon down to 3 and we were still in the 3rd Q.
Coach T. will never get a head coaching job the way we played the 4th Q. Lots of standing around and 1 one 1 offensive play. Joe Johnson was on fire, Jamall Crawford got hot late and we snatched defeat once again from the jaws of victory.
For other teams fans to claim the Celts are a bunch of whinners, they have a legitimate point. Perk & Wallace lead the league in Ts.
Tommy H. yelled out in the 3rd Q, something like “why play the game, the refs are just giving the game to the Hawks”. No Tommmy, it is the 3rd Q, suck it up dude- there was still a good 15 min. left in the game and we were still leading.
Tommy’s other complaint is at the time it was 22 to 10 in FT in the Hawks favor. However Atlanta was taking it inside and creating contact, much like Pierce used to do before we were the big 3. Tonight there were a lot of jumpers by Pierce, Ray, Baby, Rondo driving untouched. You settle for jumpers and the refs can’t “give you a call” if they wanted. And the thing is Tommy H. the cry baby knows that too.
Doc needed to follow his own advice. Even if the refs sucked, he cost us 2 points on his technicals, he cost us our head coach. Suck it up and play ball. The same will happen for us some games when we play a perimeter shooting team like the Raptors, we may be the benficiary of going to the hoop while they settle for jumpers and it could just as easily go 22-10 FT our favor. That doesn’t mean the refs like us better than the Raptors but not as much as the Hawks. Kapeech Tommy H.?
Celts need to stop playing the Tommy H. "we are the victims of the refs" card
There are games the refs are poor, no argument from me. There are times the refs call plays that seem to favor the superstar, the home team or for whatever reason one style of play over another which inadvertently can help one squad over another. There are also cases when one team is aggressive with the ball, creating contact and forcing a whistle to be blown while another team settles for jumpers.
Regardless, we have had more than our share of close tough games. Every technical called normally results in the other teams best FT shooter getting one extra point for their team which can be a dang important point come late in the game when you are tied, up by two, down by one, etc.
Celt management needs to get the players off the Heinsohn syndrome that we never commit a foul and the refs let the opponents get away with murder. Tommy’s drunkard type rants have an effect on this team, especially a younger guy like Perk. For the Celts to allow someone like Heinsohn put that junk in Perk’s head it only brings us down as a team. Anytime the Celts are more worried about what and how the refs screwed them instead of not beating the pants off their opponents, the Tommy card normally results in a bunch of more negatives than positives for the Celts.
by brianceltfan on Jan 12, 2010 12:56 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Wait a Second
LOL, So— it’s a corrupt league with a complicit commissioner and you want to blame Heinsohn?
Way to shoot the messenger. Thank goodness Stern doesn’t have the power to fine Heinsohn, who has forgotten more basketball than Stern ever knew.
Well stated... but wrong
- Tommy is an unabashed homer. He does not pretend otherwise; he’s right up front about it. And it’s not like everybody in the basketball universe doesn’t know it… the guy’s a Celtics legend, ferkrissakes.
- You assertion that Tommy’s rants negatively affect Perk or anybody else on the team are unproven and pretty silly in my view. These are not infants, you know.
- Tommy complains a lot, yes. But he’s usually RIGHT. When he’s proven wrong by the tape, he will typically admit it.
- Unfortunately, in this game, Tommy never did see, or admit to seeing, Baby’s hand on Williams’ neck, which presumably was the reason for the flagrant. I think it was a bad call, but it was not unconscionable… there was some basis in reality (unlike many other NBA calls).
- To the extent that a national audience got to hear a legitimate HOFer and NBA announcer say the words that NOBODY ELSE has the nerve to say — that NBA refs are terrible, and disgustingly so — is a GOOD thing. How otherwise will anything ever change? You should be kissing Tommy’s feet, not criticizing him… he’s one of the few reasons we have to hope that someday the NBA might improve.
- Do the Cs get the shaft more often than other teams? Put it this way: I can’t remember the last time the Cs got the benefit of the kind of blatant game-changing bad calls we saw in this game.
- The Q4 debacle seemed like a deer-in-the-headlights moment for Thibs… thrust into a tough spot with no warning whatsoever, he choked. The result was what we saw… a disorganized and exhausted group of guys. Time for Doc and Thibs to get together and work out a SYSTEM for what happens if Doc is removed from the game. Don’t let Thibs get caught in those headlights again… it was unseemly, to say the least.
DRJ1
You are the best and I agree with you 100% on just about everything you post.
No matter what happens in these games people cannot open up their eyes and see that the games are rigged. The calls never make any sense. They always go for certain teams and against certain teams. The Lakers are known for getting calls, then when they play the Cavs the fans protest and throw stuff on the court.
People complain about Tommy, yet everyone should be like Tommy, because the refs are not fair. It is stupid to agree with the refs and say Tommy doesn’t know what he is talking about. This game as we know it will never progress. The fans need to step up. And I’m not just talking about Celtics fans, its all fans, even Cavs and Lakers fans who get the calls, even they can step up and admit the calls are wrong.
I love this quote right here
“Do the Cs get the shaft more often than other teams? Put it this way: I can’t remember the last time the Cs got the benefit of the kind of blatant game-changing bad calls we saw in this game.”
And you are correct, since 1986 the only play that I can ever think about that may have gave the Celtics a game that they should’nt have is that Rondo play with Brad Miller last year, even though Ben Gordon stepped out of bounds the play before that and got 3 points they should have. That is it. I’ve never seen a call that has ever benefitted the Celtics in a game they won that they should have lost since 1986 that meant anything of importance.
And you have to start where the game rigging began.
It was 12/10/87, Lakers vs. Celtics.
Ainge misses the free throw, up by 1 point with 3 seconds left, Mychael Thompson and Kevin McHale go up for the rebound, the ball is knocked out of both of their hands and the ball goes to the Celtics as time expired Game over Celtics win.
The refs changed the call, because of Pat Riley’s and Magic’s complaining for a timeout, and the Lakers got a timeout, STILL with 3 seconds on the clock. Then Magic wins the game on a bank shot 3 pointer.
The announcers were shocked, they thought it was a foul on Parish, McHale was shocked, KC was stunned and Ainge was shocked.
It was the first time I have ever seen a game like that and a call like that changed NOT because of the rulebook, but because of how the Lakers complained for a timeout.
That changed the game, and began the rigging.
No longer are players called for the play, they are called for who they are and how they complain. And to this date the rigging hasn’t stopped, it has been especially bad since the week before Christmas.
Fans need to step up.
38-10 in the '08 Finals changed the series
Lakers lost by 6, Celts had the largest ft margin in modern era Finals history – just 2 seasons ago. REMEMBER?
by nba is the worst on Jan 12, 2010 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Go review the tape.
The Lakers didn’t earn any more fouls than those 10 by standing around outside and the Celtics definitely earned most of theirs by attacking the paint. As i said above, the fact that Powe shot 13 of those 38 should tell you a lot.
The disparity is not necessarily in the numbers. Its in whether the numbers reflect what was going on on the court.
Not 100% But Some
The bottom line is that the officials, not the players, determine the outcome of many NBA games. As soon as I saw who was officiating, I knew what was likely to happen. The NBA is the ONLY professional sport with this problem.
Probably because of the big three sports
it is the one where the officials have by far the most subjective power.
What's the spread?
Did anyone check out Vegas last night? What’s the spreads for the game? This game is another proof of Tim knowing what he was talking about when writing the book.
tibedeau
Did he address the media after the game? DId we ever get an explanation as to why he didn’t substitute? Ray was getting killed by JOhnson. How about TA even if only for a few minutes? How about Scal to give Perk or Baby a blow? How about Eddie to give Rondo a blow? Or even giddens? We’ll be ok but we could really use a wing scorer off the bench and don’t give me marquis daniels. He’s not the answer. We need a shooter with size that get hot and also defend. I love Ray but he’s a 50-50 player right now which means that he gives up as much as he gets.
Not Time To Panic
Take er’ easy everyone. Last I checked the C’s and Cleveland have 10 losses a piece, the Magic have 12 and the Hawks have 13. In the race for home court, we are right there. As for the West and the Lakers, we are only 2 back in the loss column and the Lakers are not that healthy either. They have some tough games coming up.
So, we still have a great shot at the number 1 seed in the East and even the best record in the NBA. What is amazing about this is we have played games without KG, Daniels, BBD and now Sheed. We have yet to play a game at full strength. It is a tribute to the players on the floor that we are 26-10 in spite of all the injuries. We can get better quickly against the Nets and Bulls this week. I think we will have the full squad right after the All-Star break and then watch out. The sky is not falling on this great team and they are one of the only, if not the only, team that plays together and with great heart. If we are healthy is April, nobody will beat us, not even the Hawks……..
Perk n the 4th
Is it me or did perk get the ball 2 much n the 4th quarter… dude took more shot attempts den ray allen 1 of the best shooter n the games history…. ray has go 2 gett the ball more n crunch time u cant always expect him to hitt the game winning shot with a minute left if he hadn’t touch da ball n the other 11 minutes
hawks are trouble?
this is the 3rd loss to the hawks this team is aging and injury prone the hawks are more younger and atheletic then the celts they seem hungry every time they play us its like they have something to prove now it does not look like a cake walk to the finals i do not i repeat do not want to play the hawks in the first round this smells like another mavs warriors series and we all know what happend there we need depth should have signed powe we need to make a trade . also is,nt pachullia becoming another dirty bill laimbeer type player .
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