The ATL Strikes Back
by Jeff Clark on Jan 29, 2010 10:11 PM EST
in Boston Celtics Games
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PrintThe Hawks are still bitter about that first round series a few years back. They seem to think this is a rivalry. Well, you know what, it isn't a rivalry right now because they own us. The Hawks swept the season series by winning tonight.
- Pierce was the only reason this game was close. He was hot all night long.
- Rondo was off tonight. He was not very aggressive and he was very hesitant to shoot the ball. I counted at least 3 possessions where the Hawks gave him 3 feet of space and he refused to shoot, which then led to a bad shot or turnover.
- Rondo also gave up some careless turnovers. None worse than the one in the final couple minutes.
- Garnett looked intent on proving that he was healthy early on. Took a high volume of shots. Enough went in that it wasn't a problem, just thought it was interesting.
- Why can't we ever stop Jamal Crawford? Joe Johnson I understand, but Jamal?
- I'm not even going to bother complaining about Sheed's 3's or T's.
- Chippy game, as expected. Technicals, flagrant fouls, the whole works. These teams really dislike each other. I gotta admit, I kinda like that. Reminds me of the 80's.
So, are the Celtics just tired, or are they too old to keep up?
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They are done
They can’t beat the good teams in the east — 2-7 now. Sheed is killing this team with his mostly lazy, poor play and his poor three-point shooting. The Hawks, plain and simple are a better team. Our bench is HORRENDOUS and will get better when Daniels gets back, but not good enough. Toast.
Done until they beat LA next
Myopia is contagious. We live and die by the Cs. On a game by game basis. Cs need to get hungry and play their game. Maybe Sunday.
by Daveonthecape on Jan 30, 2010 1:10 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
What are the odds
Third game in 4 days against the hated Lakers – well – at least they will be tired as well…
by nba is the worst on Jan 30, 2010 4:17 AM EST up reply actions
Joe Johnson kills us again
Sorry for sounding like a broken record and I know this will not fix all the C’s ailments but it will fix one of them:
Danny can you please trade for a long, strong, athletic defender ASAP.
whats up with D-WILKINS!?! can he be more anti-rondo?
if RR commits a mistake he will make it worst! then if rondo made a good play he
will say its because of the defender!
That was unfortunate
You know what though…KG might actually get a break against Gasol on Sunday…In the sense that Gasol actually stays primarily in the paint, as opposed to Lewis and Smith who float all over the court. Two very difficult matchups for KG these past two games.
The look on Pierce's face after Johnson hit that three with about 35 seconds to go said it all
There was just no stopping Johnson tonight.
Follow me @jimmy_toscano
yeah, right after Pierce cut it to 6.
That was the dagger.
Where Were Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk?
I kept looking for them on the Celtics bench but they weren’t there. Another nice game from Tony Allen, though. Too bad it was wasted.
Agree TA
Played well both defensively and offensively again.
House and Baby are still struggling though big time which is really hurting the bench production and the team overall.
While I thought TA mostly played well, he did get burned by Johnson pretty badly more than once.
Johnson was just so much stronger, he pushed Tony all around.
And while Tony was on the floor (mostly with the bench against THEIR starters) the Celtics were bleeding points horribly. Tony was -22 in 15:29 minutes of play. Ugh. I don’t think we should blame him in particular, because the entire bench sucked, but … ugh.
Celtics are 6-10 in their last 16 games
My guess if few teams who win championships have stretches like that during the season. Hopefully after the Lakers game on Sunday, Danny sits down and figures out what direction this team has to go.
We did lose these last two games, BUT
it isnt like they were blowouts. Sure, you’d like to win the games. But we blew the Orlando game, we had that game in our grasps, and we hung around the Hawks all night but just couldn’t stop Johnson or Crawford. Both games were on the road against top teams in the league. Not trying to make excuses for losing, but trying to look on the bright side.
We know we can compete with these teams. Just need to get back to where we were, somehow.
Follow me @jimmy_toscano
0-4 against the Hawks, 1-2 against the Magic
Where is the proof the Celts can beat these teams?
completely agree
like jimmy said, it’s not an even an excuse, but these games have been close. the c’s made a good come back tonight, and unfortunately we didn’t get the game. we are not the same team we used to be, but any of these games we could have won. hate losing, but to me there’s no reason to give up.
by faithfulcelticfan34 on Jan 29, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
A good comeback and they lost by 9
Sorry, but I find it hard to be positive about a 2-7 record against the iron in the east and back to back losses to the Magic and the Hawks.
With the refs giving Pierce many calls
Without all those bailouts it wouldn’t have been close in the 4th
by nba is the worst on Jan 30, 2010 4:21 AM EST up reply actions
Refs were reasonably fair
Except the time they called a foul on Rondo because Jamal jumped and happened to land on Rondo’s completely stationary foot, while Rondo was looking in the opposite direction. Ridiculous… but overall, the refs were not an issue.
Magic game the benchmark
Letting that one slip away tells what needs to be told about the Club at this juncture.
That doesn´t count in statement games, and the Celtics made it clear that these three games are statement games.
That too
Good to see you around, Cas.
Hope all is well on the flip side of the world.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 29, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you, sw
Life is good.
I hope the same is true for the Weinman family.
Sure is, sir
I talk to The Guru (and Mother of Son of The Guru, who recently hit me with the revelation that she prefers that title to Mama Weinman) after every game, win or lose, and that’s the highlight of my night no matter what happens on the court for the green.
And the youngest Weinman took home a 27-point win in her high school game tonight.
No complaints here. :-D
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 30, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
The real disheartening part of it for me, JT,
is understanding just how far the frame of mind has shifted with this team, as best evidenced by your sentence “We know we can compete with these teams.”
Stunning to think that a team that talked (albeit nonsensically) about 72 wins before the season has been reduced to proving it can play with the Magic and Hawks of the world – two excellent teams, by the way, but I didn’t expect this Celts team to have to prove it could hang in with anyone this season.
None of that is to suggest the gloom and doom that some of the reactionaries are, but I do think that last line of Jimmy’s strikes a poignant chord indicating how different things are than some of us (certainly myself) expected not all that long ago.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 29, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
not just scal!
we are losing because there’s little help from our Bench!
Not true.
The Celtic starters were ALL + for the game. That is, when the Celtic starters were on the floor, the Celtic’s outscored the Hawks. This directly refutes your statement.
The problem is, the bench REALLY REALLY was BAAD when they were on the floor.
Everyone on the bench was at least -13 or worse except Scal who was ‘only’ -5.
Part of the reason is that the Hawks played their starters most of the game and so the celtic bench was going against mostly the Hawk’s starters when they were on the floor. And Crawford off the bench was shooting the lights out.
my point is not about this game only
we turn the ball over too much, we are as dominant defensively, key players look hurt and we can’t control defensive boards…regardless of who is on the floor, starters or bench
but the numbers don't support your contention
When I say that the C’s starters were plus minutes and outscored their opponents, that isn’t necessarily just about offense. Its about net differential.
By the way, rebounds really aren’t a very useful stat.
The problem in this game was the bench.
Why all subs at once?
Still dont get why doc plays whole sub lines. Why not Paul ad Tony, Paul and House, Ray and Tony? Or Perk and Wallace, Sheldon and KG.
i disagree to that
our starters can beat any team but with that bench line up..theyre suffering big time!
1. sunday is going to be brutal 2. it isnt all about K's injuries....a lot more going on with this team
3. they are middle of the pack team right now…4. the are old and fading before our eyes
by celticinorlando on Jan 29, 2010 10:20 PM EST reply actions
Here's to that positive part of the evening.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 29, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
TWO main reasons for this loss:
1) Rasheed Wallace – by far the most PATHETIC player on the floor, and for that matter, in the whole NBA tonight. A 1-man team-killer. TOs, techs, missed shots, bad rebounding, lazy lazy stupid play… nothing but bad and more bad.
2) Doc Rivers – for being so unbelievably STUPID keeping Rasheed in the game.
Yes, Rondo was disgustingly lazy at times (5 lazy TOs), Paul threw the ball away a few times, Perk travels too much (but mostly gets away with it), etc. But nothing… NOTHING compares to the GARBAGE that was Rasheed Wallace on the court tonight.
I feel badly for Paul and KG (and even Ray) who worked valiantly for the win tonight… but were stabbed in the back by Rasheed (and by Doc for keeping him in the game.) Gonna go vomit now.
TA + nothing
the bench blew tonight… they blew the lead in the first half and dug a hole in the second half.
Well, blame part of this on Doc
The lineup he had out there in the second quarter was a joke, and he had almost the same lineup to start the fourth. Bad bench, bad coaching, bad point guard play and bad Sheed = another bad loss.
the bench has to play
in the second night of a back to back. there’s no way around that. when they played, they (with the exception of TA) did nothing.
I agree with that.
Unfortunately, with 4 games in 5 nights during this stretch, Doc HAS to play the bench, especially on a road back-to-back.
But because the Hawks basically played their starters most of the whole game, our bench was matched up against them and just got killed.
Frustrating because our STARTERS (you know, Paul, KG, Rondo, Ray & Perk (yes, Perk) ) all posted plus minutes. That means they actually outplayed the Hawks when they were on the floor.
Sigh …
Sub Players not Whole bench
Put out a line w/4 subs and guess what, quality will suffer. Why does Coach Doc not mix and match? Sub one big, not 2. Sub Tony with Paul or Ray. Of course this breaks down at the guard situation because neither Ray, Tony, or House seems able to keep the offense in flow.
We're done!!!!
…..Unless Danny does something! Good pick up this off season for ATL signing Crawford. We signed Shelden Williams!!!!! (sigh)!!!!!!
by wingate on Jan 29, 2010 10:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Fire Doc
Seriously.. subbing the whole bench in the 2nd quarter killed us. Hey Doc news flash, the starters will have plenty of rest after we get eliminated from the playoffs.
by Ragetti on Jan 29, 2010 10:25 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Good News from this game:
Not much of it. But:
- KG is clearly not injured. His movements and energy were just fine.
- Paul was great… except for the times he threw the ball away. Gotta work on that, Paul. STOP trying to dribble so much… you are Paul, not Rajon.
- TA was good… Doc was nuts (again) for not playing him more.
- Rebounding was much improved over recent games.
All meaningless when you have a total FECALITH like Rasheed playing the way he played tonight. (And an idiot for a coach who lets him keep playing.)
Wait !!
That comment was due to your prediction that Sheed AND KG would be traded !! Be fair…. {groan}
agree with much but not all
TA was sometimes good, but Johnson was pushing him all over and burned him badly.
Our starters were actually all pretty good today. They just couldn’t play the whole game like the Hawks starters basically did.
Our bench (including both TA and Rasheed) all stunk.
Its easy to yell at Doc over playing the bench, but the fact is this is the second of a road back-to-back in the midst of a 4 games in 5 days stretch. He can’t play the starters for 40+ minutes like the Hawks did. The bench had to be endured.
Amazingly, if only he had pulled the bench just one minute earlier, the C’s might have won. Hard to time that.
Daniels will be a huge boost for the bench.
My only real bitch with Doc is why wasn’t Perk out there at the end of the game this time? He only had 3 PFs so no reason not to be out there instead of Sheed who just wasn’t hitting his shots, even in the post.
One small defense of Sheed – he did cause several turnovers through his disruptive reach-ins. He sure has fast hands for such a big man. I would hate to get slapped by him!
I would not have minded anybody from the bench
…except Sheed. As you say, hard to fathom keeping Sheed in when he had been SO HORRIBLE to that point.
“Horrible” is not a horrible enough adjective for how bad Sheed was. In one 1-minute stretch between 9:40 and 8:40 of Q2, Sheed got two TOs and a tech. And it went on like that ALL GAME LONG. A couple of good slaps does not make up for the fecality of the rest of his game.
I totally wanted Perk out there in the last minutes instead of Sheed
but you are being too hard on Sheed.
His minutes were actually ‘less painful’ than anybody else off the bench. BBD was horrendous: -19 in less than 13 minutes of play! It is fair to say that TA shouldn’t have been on Johnson – but he WAS on Johnson and got torched to the tune of -22 in only 15:29!!! Eddie was similarly horrid at -14 in only 7 minutes!!!! Sheed may have also been negative, at -13, but that was spread over almost 26 minutes. So yeah, Sheed had a poor game – but he wasn’t the gasoline-on-the-fire that the rest of the bench was.
No, m, no
We talked about +/- before… and I know we agree about it’s meaning and value in a single game. If BBD was more neg than Sheed, it must have been because Sheed was particularly bad when BBD was out there!
No, Sheed was just HORRIBLE… in just ONE minute: 2 TOs and a tech. Threw the ball away…. did NOTHING to get rebounds that didn’t bounce right to him…. missed almost every shot he took…. I mean he was total crap out there, the worst player on the court by far. You have to accept the evidence of your eyes on this one.
somewhat - except BBD was just plain horrible
as was Eddie.
I won’t say TA was horrible because he was hustling and playing as best he could, but he was simply way over-matched.
Sheed’s foibles are very visible, but if you watch the game film over carefully, you’ll see he also had many positive contributions, especially on defense. Unfortunately, not enough to overcome his poor shooting.
I thought TA was good
…on offense. But he was guarding Joe, and that’s not right. Joe’s too big and strong. TA on Jamal made the most sense to me.
this board makes it hard to be a celtics fan. I dont know if all these doom sayers are bandwagoners or what but if theres no real criticism about specific things we did wrong then people just shouldnt write. People come here for analysis of basketball not the same post of people saying “were toast and were done” in january.
KG looked decent and was +10 and all starters were +…. bench on the other hand was horrendus but thats because they were playing against crawford who hit a lot of lucky shots. Overall, as frusterating as it was, we are starting to look better.
I think that we got into a SERIOUS funk because of the injuries but we can get out of it. So much of basketball is about chemistry. Its not like the guys have gotten years older since the 11 game win streak, and they are professional athletes there bodies WILL NOT deteriorate over the course of 5-6 months. If they can get fully health soon and get theyre chemistry going we can get back to where we were at the begining of the season.
We are not the only team who has had issues. Cleveland started off the season horribly, because of chemistry, which is a big part of our problem right now. Lakers had a string of bad games when Bynum and Gasol were switching in and out of the line up.
our injuries and line up adjustments have been much more serious, so it makes sense that our struggles are much more serious. With that said, I think Febuary and the first few games after the all star game are make or break. We CAN get back to being an elite team, and I dont think this is just a sign of us aging, it is more about chemistry, which in turn makes it hard to get fired up, and without adrenaline it is hard to push your body to the next level.
Sorry for the rant, but Im sick of no one being positive.
Sometimes reality stinks
6-10 in the last 16 is reality. Can’t be denied. And I fear another loss on national TV Sunday.
Me too!!!! LA is gonna kill us....
by wingate on Jan 29, 2010 10:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
one more thing is that ray allens struggles can easily be linked to the instability in our roster. So much of his game relies on knowing what other people are going to do, and other people knowing where he will be. Without KG and Pierce in the line up it was probably really hard for him to know what defenses might do, and where he should be. Even though he is the only fully health one, he has also been adversely affected by injuries.
I have nothing good to say about Sheed and no way to justify his struggles. his is stuborn and frusterating but when he is in the post I like what I see. Hopefully one day Rivers freaks out at him but I doubt it
Ray has only struggled for a few games in the middle of this month.
The rest of the season he has played very well and has been the glue keeping the team together.
I’m not as bothered by Sheed. He sucked tonight, but he’s also had some real good games. He plays a fly or die style off offense, but his defense is solid. I mostly blame Doc for not playing Perk late tonight when he was available. We could have used his efficiency in the post down the stretch.
Ray has not been good for most of this month
He has had a decent season, but the month of January has not been too kind to him, other than last night.
go back and check the game stats
he posted positive minutes in the majority of the games of January. He scored 15 or more points in all but 3 games and 20 or more in 4.
He basically had 3 really suck games in the month.
Agree mmmmm
about your Rasheed comment.
Yes he had a bad game tonight, but for a 35 year old back up Rasheed has done a decent job this year as our back up center and we are lucky to have him since if we did not Baby would be our back up center.
Rasheed is what he is, he has his flaws, but he also does help this team also .
He is our best low post scorer which we really lack.
He is also our best low post power defender (like he was against Howard last night) and will be our Howard and Shaq stopper in the playoffs if we meet them, since he has a history of playing so well against both of them.
You cannot be that bad, ever
…and be considered a “good” player. Ok, I hope he proves me wrong… but his horribleness tonight is very hard to forget.
A good player never gets that bad. You have to have the ability to NOT GIVE A DAMN about your team, your fans, your reputation and even yourself… to play that badly, ever.
To me it is more the attitude he seems to have on the court
More interested on being a comedian and putting on a show. That’s not the kind of player I want to watch or want on my team.
Agree.
I think you are definitely on to something Chilli. This has not been a very smooth ride starting way before in the preseason. My personal feeling is that I would rather learn to “play again” together now, and work out the kinks and develop chemistry. So that by Spring things should be back on track.
I'm positive
But truth is truth. Rasheed Wallace belonged in rec league tonight. A total bag of doodoo. And Doc kept him in, which means he’s insane. And Rondo threw the ball away… what? 5 times?
But there were some positives, as noted earlier…. KG is reasonably healthy for one. PP for another. Now if only Wallace would go get a brain transplant, we’d be ok, don’t you think?
Well said chilli.
Lets all just relax.
Constructive criticism is fine, but lets not panic and keep hope alive at least until the trade deadline.
Cleveland started off the season "horribly"?
They were 3-3. If that’s horrible, what’s our January? There are Chicken Littles, and then there are excuse makers. I can’t stand either. This is still a good team, but it’s not an elite team right now. Looking at it any other way to me is ridiculous when we’re 2-7 against the Top 3 and 6-10 in our last 16 games. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade dude.
Everyone has had injury problems
The Lakers were missing their 2nd best player for half the games played so far, as Gasol was out. Kobe is playing with a broken finger, back spasms, and elbow issues. His efficiency fell of a cliff when all these injuries started. Ron Artest has been out due to foot injuries and a concussion. Luke Walton, who is a lot better and more important to the Lakers than people believe, was out for the entire season until a week ago, etc etc etc
The Cavs are missing their second best player now in Mo Williams. Shaq as always has had injury isses.
The Magic were missing Rashard for the first 10 games of the year. Vince Carter just got back due to a shoulder seperations. Nelson just got back after being out for a long time due to a knee injury and still is not himself.
The Nuggets are missing Carmelo for a long stretch. Billups was also gone. That’s their 2 best players. Kenyon Martin was out due to a finger problem. etc etc etc
Basically, the Celtics injury problems have NOT been as bad as the other teams. To say that the Celtics have had worse injury problems than the other teams is to put your head in the sand. It hasn’t been worse.
well when Gasol and Bynum are in one of them becomes very ineffective and takes the night off so they dont notice the effects of that as much. Artest has only missed 2 games I believe. Kobe is a machine and as much as I hate the lakers I have incredible respect for him, but with that said, the media makes his injuries seem much worse (and they lost the first two games while he adjusted to his finger). The Magic have struggled worse than us. The Cavs were better without shaq for the first bit of the season and he is only expected to play limited minutes anyways. Mo Williams has only been out 2 games. Nuggets have played great, good for them.
Missing KG is almost as serious as missing Kobe or Lebron. He isnt nearly important in terms of the actual things he does on the floor, but his attitude and the intangibles make a huge difference to our team. The Cavs would be below 500 without LBJ and Lakes would be playing probably fairly similar to how we have in january without kobe.
on top of that our players have been out for way longer than any of the players you mentioned, and that is what throws off chemistry, so those are not fair comparisons.
Back to the Lab
RE Chemistry is not so much a matter of the right mix as elements missing. The key one being a sub for Rondo (ball handler /attack guard). The 2nd one is the all bench lineup that Doc likes to run. Sheed Davis/Will, Tony Hosue. That one is killing the club
what can we get for rasheed?
he came in out of shape, he gets a technical every game, he insists on yelling “and one” or “ball don’t lie” like some crazy homeless man and he misses every 3 pointer he takes. oh and he reaches on d and commits stupid fouls. Have I left anything out? there’s probably more but damn. what a waste of talent. he needs to parh his fat A in the post and go to work. I don’t often call athletes lazy but he’s lazy.
go ahead and put the gun to your head or raise your hands to surrender... Dear David Stern we quit!!!
Get out of my foxhole – you quitters!!!!!!
Is it Soup Yet?
Never Quit,
just need changes.
Something has to spark this team though,
maybe a backup point guard for when Rondo is having a bad night would be a start.
He would have definitely helped our bench.
Nothing could have made our bench worse tonight.
Rondo 3-13 tonight with six assists
He’s gotta have bad games once in awhile, but picked a lousy time to have a stinker.
I'm with you!
No reason to quit at all! It’s January, we’re going to be okay!
by faithfulcelticfan34 on Jan 29, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Big Baby needs a new nickname.
Useless.
I loved him last year, but he’s come back a complete basket case this year.
He was banging pretty hard in there
… for a minute.
i’ve never seen him dunk a ball when he’s close 2 the basket.. all he does is put up weak layups and gets blocked
He has no ...
jumping ability, height and length (short arms) that is why he never dunks and gets alot of his shots blocked.
He is struggling badly and with Garnet hurting Danny we are basically working with no legit power forward.
It would be nice to try to trade Scal’s expiring 3.4 mill contract, Giddens 1 million expiring contract and maybe even Baby himself to obtain a decent power forward and fill this weak spot, especially before we head into the playoffs.
Difference between "quitting" and being realistic about this team's chances
Starting Monday it will be February and I wonder if we will start reading, “it’s only February” here when the Cletics lose games they should win.
True
These “true” celtic fans need to wake up. Enough with the excuses. Every team has injuries and every team has players with bad games but we are getting dominated by the elite teams in the east. You can bet your life saving if we face cle, atl or orl in the playoffs we will be done. Plain and simple.
Yeah, they should just stop playing.
And you should just stop watching.
See ya next year!
They won´t stop
It makes them look good, regardless of the outcome, and it´s only the internet, so they have nothing to lose.
They talk the talk…
Eddie House needs
to start bringing his kid on the road. Something needs to get him going.
The other question I have is this
What if Marquis comes back and they continue to play poorly? It’s entirely possible. I like Marquis Daniels, but he is definitely not a game changer.
Rasheed
well you can’t expect him to be consistent NOW
Toronto only 6 games behind in the Atlantic going into tonight
And if they played and won they are only 5 behind
Scalabrine
managed to stay in the NBA somehow. how, we all want to know? conspiracy? i think so
Scalabrine
was by no means the worse performer off the bench tonight.
Why single him out?
I'm not singling him out.
I ragged on every bench player except TA. TA got handled a bit by Johnson, but I’ll cut him some slack. Johnson is a monster.
I really can't see this team winning a championship.
And if we’re not contending for a championship, why are we bothering to stick around? I don’t want to be one of those teams that hangs around, making it even harder to get back to the ultimate goal.
USG
do you want them to just stop playing? it’s january, it’s still anyone’s game.
by faithfulcelticfan34 on Jan 29, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Lets Go Celtics
my biggest problem from the game tonight it that i think rasheed is tearing perk down psychologically and that is my biggest fear about rasheed.. Perk deserves to be playing the crunch time minutes right now!
I don't know anymore
I thought Sheed was improving. I don’t know though… you could be right. Let’s hope not, but could be….
stupid
Its really irritating me how many flaws we have that need to be handled ,jamal craford has killed us the reason for that we do not have a two guard to stop him ray can’t eddie sure as hell can’t and tony can’t because he’s our two gaurd trying to defend their small forward i.e. Joe johnson .Paul’s 35 nulled joe’s 28 but if you put ray rajon eddie and tony together they couldn’t match his production. So we need a back up pg.We need help in the paint.If marquis is rays backup we need a back up for paul or vice versa . Allmost every championship team has two players that average twenty a game with a third not being to far behind , we have One. I just don’t know at this point I am not a dramatic person watching us play the hawks has givin me little faith that going forward how we are presently put together that we’d make it out of the first round even with marquis he’s a solid player but not that high impact player we desperatly need so should we press forward or blow it up
by reggie_35 on Jan 29, 2010 10:47 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Several things
This team is not tough anymore. Sure, they yap a lot and talk a good game, but not backing it up
The Toronto Raptors are now only 5.5 games behind the Celts in the Atlantic Division
The bench is horrendous — House has been bad most of the years, Rasheed has been mediocre at best, Big Baby can’t take a layup without getting blocked and Scal is terrible
They are 2-7 versus the iron in the east
They are 6-10 in their last 16 games
They are NOT going to win an NBA championship this year
well that's the obvious final gap
This team is fragile in the sense that it is dependent on a lot of parts being in specific roles. We don’t really have redundancy.
If we have all our parts healthy, then I think we are a contender. But if any one of several key pieces are out, then the ripple effects are very hard for us to overcome.
KG being out didn’t just hurt the starting rotations – but it meant sliding BBD & Scal into Sheed’s bench minutes. Now he’s back and that helps push Sheed back into the bench big minutes.
Daniels is a key piece for several reasons. Doc uses Ray as the main transition starter who plays the most minutes with the bench players becuase they are most effective (as measured by 5-man +/-) with him over any of the other starters. However, when Daniels is healthy, they are actually even more effective with him as floor leader.
So Daniels not only helps reduce Ray’s minutes (which helps his shooting by keeping his legs fresh), but he actually makes the bench more effective.
But we have to temper our expectations in that Daniels is going to be coming back cold after not having played in ages. It will take a few weeks before he’s at full speed.
Yes, very little redundancy
Very little room for error with this bench, which is not as deep as we thought coming in.
Which means that the truth we already know is ever truer: If healthy, we can go far, even all the way. If not, no chance.
Good Point
Im ok with Wallace paired with Perk or KG for 24 min, but it starts to go south when you mix him with Davis or Williams or Scal. Unfortunately, KG (injury/conditioning) and Perk (fouls/energy) are at their best playing around 32 min. So that means relying on Davis’ hops, Shel’s hands and feet, or Scals intangibles.
Question
Did anybody else lose respect for Horford tonight? i thought he completely acted like an idiot!
yeah, he urged the crowd to boo when Pierce shot a technical free throw.
by tomatolander on Jan 29, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Why -- cos he got excited about a good play?
He’s young and emotional. Do you feel the same way when Garnett does all of the things he does or when Sheed or Perkins act like jerks?
nope
he was fine get exciting after the and one play that was fine… but the urging of the fans by waving his arms and making all kinds of gestures is an amateur move at best!
disagree
this guy was in college for three years and now has been an NBA for three years.. that makes him not a kid
not trying to argue
but when do u become mature??
It's called "getting the crowd involved"
The Celts played tough tonight, Hawks just outplayed them overall in all four games. They’ll see each other in the playoffs, should be pretty interesting….
by Anonymous HawksGuy on Jan 29, 2010 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
i assume u r a Hawks fan
Great Job!what interesting is, they will play together in All-Star!
but i thought that was a dumb thing to do..getting the crowd for Paul to miss the FT! so unprofessional..
are you serious?
Your “leader” KG gets down on his hands and knees and barks at small guards. Will KG stand up to Artest or Ben Wallace or Shaq or someone who is actually his size? No. Just little white point guards, lol.
And you’re calling someone who attempts to get the crowd involved unproffessional? c’mon man, stop making me laugh.
Completely uncalled for
Please cease and desist.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 29, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
Let's leave the racial stuff out of it, please.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 29, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
Please...
It’s certainly preferable to the Celts players hitting opponents in the face…
by nba is the worst on Jan 30, 2010 4:36 AM EST up reply actions
Nop... In Fact...
I LOVE HORFORD… Sorry… :S
My point is championshp teams don't lose this many games with double digit leads
Nor do they go through streaks like the 6-10 one the Celtics are in right now.
Point taken
Some of that may be due to bench play, or at least, bad mixing of bench elements. But
unlike the other contenders, the C’s dont seem to have one guy they can ride in the stretch. Neither Ray or Paul seems to be able to consistently takeover, tho not sure if that’s a question of injury, age, or offensive sets. That puts a lot on Rondo, whose tool kit is short (outside shot).
Exactly….these are just the facts! We all have hope, but the facts can’t be denied!
by wingate on Jan 29, 2010 10:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sheed haters....
It took tonight`s game to realize he`s garbage?!?
He`s been shooting 40% from the floor {30% from the arc} all year long!!!!
Tonight was different
Tonight Rasheed transcended all measures of bad. It’s hard to even describe how bad he was.
Not surprising because he sunk down to around 26% for a while.
It will take all year to climb out of that statistical hole.
Career averages and statistical return to mean suggest that he will.
Because he limited himself
which he´s not doing anymore.
I'm sticking with my team
And I still like Rasheed a lot. I’m not too sure about this “fan” blog, though
I am sticking with Rasheed also
He is not perfect and has his flaws but he is the best big man on our bench by far .
Before we dump Rasheed (which I think is silly) we should get rid of Scal, Baby and Williams before first.
Go Sheeeeedd !
Why can't he just play the game instead of trying to put on a show?
His act and attitude are really tiring.
I don't think it's an act
I think tonight, for example… he really was that lazy, that crappy, that uncaring, that bad. The attitude with the refs is bad for sure… and so stupid. HOW MANY TIMES in the course of his long career has he complained to the refs? How many times has it made ANY positive difference? And how many times did he get slapped with a tech for doing it? You would THINK… that he would get it by now. Just weird, really really weird.
It is not an act...
…it’s who he is, ask any fan in D.C, Portland, Detroit and now Boston.
Doc sucks
I am still pissed about having the whole bench in at quarter number 2. Our bench sucks, no true pg and he decides that is what to feed the hawks. Maybe next time he should just ask his players to lay down on the court so they can “rest”.
Sunday's Game
If we lose by more 10 on our own floor on sunday somebody has 2 be traded … it looks like we get depressed 2 easily out there and nobody is on the same page.. we need 2 have a team meeting or something were are our leaders
Sunday..
If we get blown out sunday, Wyc needs to walk to Danny Ainge and say “Either you go or Doc goes, your choice!”
I hated Doc more than most
during the dark days, but then he lead us to #18.
that gives any coach a four year grace period in my book.
Wow... Now you should just leave this site now... And never come back to it again!
It was #17not #18 reggie.
Funny
Shows how long ago most of those were…
by nba is the worst on Jan 30, 2010 4:40 AM EST up reply actions
Lots of Championship teams have gone through stretches like this in the past...
.. or through worse even. I’ll start tearing my hair out after the C’s actually FAIL when it MATTERS, but at this point, ANYTHING is still POSSIBLE.
I'm no walking basketball history encyclopedia..
But I do remember the Spurs, Rockets, and even the Lakers (in the last year of their 3 peat anyway) not really being LOLWUTDOMINATING during the regular seasons of some of their championship years. They lost, tumbled, wilted, and looked mortal at times just like any other team.
I don’t care if the Celtics don’t look perfect right now, or if everyone’s looking like crap. It’s not over till they’ve actually been ELIMINATED in the playoffs.
Who knows? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.
I didn’t really jot down notes while watching games back then. I did know that at some point they looked like real crap as well, but they eventually resurfaced from those bad stretches. I think Houston even won it all once as a freaking 6th-7th seed.
Look, I’m not trying to argue with anyone here that the Celtics are just fine right now. They aren’t. But that doesn’t mean everything is lost yet at this point in the season… there always exists the possibility that THEY WILL get over this slump.
Awesome use of "LOLWUTDOMINATING."
That is all.
As you were.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 29, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
I've been saying that from day one
…and still have to agree. It’s just that…. I never imagined that Sheed could be that bad. Or that Doc could be that stupid. In a game they clearly should have wanted to win.
There is some good news. PP was completely invested, and did great (except for the 3 times he threw the ball away – STOP THAT Paul, please). KG was healthy, invested (as always) and did well. Ray was good. Perk was good. TA was good on O, did a reasonable job on Jamal when on him (to the extent it was possible to slow that guy down at all). Rebounding was very good – a big positive change.
So bottom line — yes, this was just another reg season game. 1/82. No big deal. They will get it together for the playoffs.
But at some point, all this practice has to come to something. At some point, they need to win one of these “practice” games against a really good team…. just to prove they’re not delusional. Maybe Sunday…………
we need a realization.
I dont think this year is lost. But we need new young blood and if Ray Allen is the person I’m all in! Yes he’s a great guy but this sport is a business. He has a great contract worth alot alot of money that is expiring. If we could spin a deal with a team that is in need of contract flexibility and has nice young talent. Let’s do it. Wake up Danny!
Seriously
The ball is in Danny Ainge’s court. Time to step up and deliver to the fans.
You’d think with all of these comments we were in last place or something. it’s disapointing to me to read all of these comments froms fans. why be a fan if you already have up on the team?
by faithfulcelticfan34 on Jan 29, 2010 11:06 PM EST reply actions
Not giving up
but dude realize that we are crying bloody murder trade to get better and these teams are already better than us. Do realize that they are 1 up on us and can also trade to get even better.
You act like trades happen like in fantasy sports.
THere are basically NO trades that make technical, financial or basketball sense that would definitely make this a better team for THIS year.
The C’s are not yet completely out of it. Until they are, it makes no sense to do any trade that destroys their chances for THIS year.
Once they are – and Danny’s smart enough he’ll know when that is – that will be the time to make trade’s for the future. Until then, just relax.
How about Sheed for Horford?
Salaries are close. DEAL !!
*Wishful Thinking*
but definitley won’t happen. An All-Star for a troubled has been? C’mon son!!
by Anonymous HawksGuy on Jan 29, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
What if the Celts sweetened the deal by offering to take Crawford off your hands, too?
:-D
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 29, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
I've seen this a few times now
..and every time it makes me lol. Just the way it’s phrased or something. Lol.
Some of these stats are just unreal
Only two Celts in double figures tonight
Ray and Rondo combined to shoot 7-26. Add Sheed, and the three of them were 9-34. add Eddie and they were 9-38. AI-Yi-Yi.
Backup Point Guard
We need a backup ASAP i dont wanna hear t. lue because he aint gonna solve any of our problems… Rondo plays 2 much … we need 2 find another jamal crawford
Why Not???
Look the Bulls with Rose and Hinrich..
Ray Allen's value.
We know there’s interest. What do you think? I think we should deal him if we can get young talent.
Just like you new the Yankees were going to sweep the Red Sox in 2004 after they were up 3 nothing...
Learn to have your faith in your team Wallace758!
Then tell me this why are you a Celtics fan... And a A's fan?
Just wondering because I like to know how people become fans of teams when they don’t live anywhere near there team.
im a Celtics fan and i live in LA
why does it matter?
What a dumb reason for being a Celtics fan because you liked a player on their team...
You don’t like a team because you liked a player on your team, you like a team because you were brought up that way or they are your hometown team.
Truly not trying to argue here ...
but, i wore my " we beat LA" shirt outside of the staples center and not one fan said anything to me.
by faithfulcelticfan34 on Jan 29, 2010 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
The latest amusing lesson...
…in the perils of using gender-specific terms on the anonymous ’Net.
:-D
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 30, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
i did... i was younger then
but the fakers beat the c’s so no one really said anything
Actually I have met a lot of people on this site that do...
But I feel that you should have a legitamate reason to be a fan of the team, not because you like a player on their team.
I could name thousands of reasons
Just because your not from boston doesnt mean you cant be a celtics fan
But that is just my opinion...
And you can be a fan of w.e. team you want I just feel that people should have legitimate reasons to be fans of the teams they like.
So strange
That you think “legitimate” = living, accidentally, in the same city as a team. But CHOOSING a team for its players, its ethos, its character, its game philosophy… choosing one team out of 30 to support because they’re special… THAT seems illegitimate to you.
Oh to be 17 again. It’s good to be silly and happy.
Sorry for offending you DRJ1...
I have strong feelings on why I feel that people should be fans of the teams they are, but it doesn’t mean I should tell people they are dumb fans if I don’t agree with those reasons.
No problem, Mike
No offense taken. Just exchanging ideas.
You know what I think DRJ1 everyone just needs to get a long and start pulling for this team and give them extra support (not saying that you aren't) but I think we need to give an extra effort in pulling for them and cheering them on...
Starting with Sundays game against the Lakers!
Absolutely
While we’re at it, I will donate my services to provide Sheed with a brain transplant. No charge, big guy.
i have to deal with faker fans...
at work, home, everywhere.
I can't imagine going through that ziggen...
by the way I don’t want to argue any more… We should be arguing against fans of other teams not ours.
yea man ur argument has no reasoning behind it.
most people start liking a team because of its players not city
Try going to the eastern conference finals in Nj in 2002
and hearing every nets fans in your face while your wearing a kenny anderson jersey.
how bout going to a dodgers game
wearing a celtics hoodie… and people yelling… wtf wrong sport $%#%! stupid dodgers
Hey... You should just be glad you were at that game Wallace758...
and not care what other people are saying to you except for the “Will someone please stab Paul Pierce”… that is just wrong.
So what... I wouldn't care what people are saying to me at an away playoff game if i was a fan...
I would just be glad to be there.
trust me its annoying...
i have bruises and cuts to prove it… in a clippers game… since faker games are overpriced to see a sex offender play
I guess daddy never told you anything about sports.
Maybe that the world revolves around Fenway park.
As much as I hate the yankees. I'm sick of hearing red sox fans actually comparing the two
27 versus 7..come on
Tenure yes...
The Yankees are by far the best franchise in baseball, actually in any sport… but year by year you can compare the Sox to the Yankees… Especially the years of 2004 and 2007 when the Sox won it.
You can't compare the entire existence of the franchises...
BECAUSE THE YANKEES HAVE THE MOST CHAMPIONSHIPS IN ANY SPORT… but by year you can compare the Sox to the Yankees…
Frustrating night for everyone
but let’s ease off the personal attacks all around.
Thanks.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 30, 2010 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry Steve... Your right...
It’s frustrating enough with the C’s losing so there is no room for personal attacks wether I have reasons on why someone should be a fan of a team… But it hurts when I see a CELTICS fan saying get ready for Cavs Vs. Lakers finals and someone agreeiing with it.
Living in a state of denial...
…is NO way to go through life.
I`m writing from deep behind enemy lines {Palm Springs, Cal.} on vacation...
….But, I have always resided in NE
Hey guys if you were real fans of your team you would not quit on them in January when they're is a little under half the season left...
Actually you would not quit on your team until it is completely over.
It's NOT QUITTING
You can still be a fan of a team, but take a step back and realize that they are not going to win a championship the way they are currently constructed. I am a Bruins fan and I KNOW they have no chance at the Stanley Cup. Doesn’t mean I quit. These kinds of charges about people who don’t think the C’s can win it all really bugs me.
Ever heard of the term "constructive criticism"?
It`s essential for a healthy debating culture…
Mike's Butt hurt... he's still living in 2008
wake up… this team needs to change
Yes it does... It needs to start playing better...
but that doesn’t mean we still can’t win the title with how we are constructed or adding a player… Don’t get me wrong though… If the right trade comes along I’d be all for it.
Then, maybe there´s a reason for it?
All these people can´t be simply a bunch of chicken littles.
Maybe the Celts should start to play better, to shut up all their critics?
we all are sticking with our team
But is there a person or fan out ther that can tell me we are going to win a championship as we are presently comprised,Ray is a spot up come off the screen shooter now in his vcareer and he is streaky at best,Paul is still Paul but can’t explode every night for thirty just can’t , KG love the intensity but what if this is healthy for him this by all measures could be KG as healthy as he’s gonna get, Sheed I love and hate love the fact that he’s one of the best PF’s to ever play the game but only when he wants to be that’s why he’s not, Baby is solid but so emotional and mentally weak you just never know,marquis has never played a full season ,neither has Tony ,Eddies been in a slump ALL YEAR , Sheldon has feet for hands Doc said might be the worst he’s ever seen,Love perk great defender ,we lost our best low post player in Powe,what should we do goin forward because we cannot win as we stand presently this aint two years ago we are not only two years older but we are not as deep not as tough just plain not as good
by reggie_35 on Jan 29, 2010 11:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Our "wannabe" dynasty was over on
February 19, 2009
Thank You Celtics management for never telling us what exactly happened with Kevin Garnett.
Here's your bill!
GrandFather Time says as he plops the check down at Pierce Allen and KG’s Table.
"Memphis then used a pick-and-roll to get Conley free and he drove past Shaquille O'Neal for the go-ahead layup."
When was the last time Ray Allen was shooting below 90 percent from the line?
He is shooting 89 percent now.
He shoots at 88-90% most of his career.
Last year’s percentage was exceptionally high for him.
But is there any reason why he defers to Pierce for those technical free throws?
by tomatolander on Jan 29, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
Pierce has only started taking technical free throws the last two games
Also, since the 2002-2003 season, Ray has only shot below 90 percent once.
I thought the same thing
Happened a couple of times when both were on the court tonight, and I can’t remember that happening previously. Thought Ray was pretty much the automatic de facto tech shooter in any case when he was on the floor.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Jan 30, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
It must be because Ray asked for it
No other explanation makes sense (from what we know).
Why has Ray been blowing into his hands so much lately? Not this game (that I saw), but the past 4-5. As if his hands are cold or something. Might be related to the FT question.
My guess is that this is a temporary phenomenon that will soon end… i.e., we will soon see Ray back to shooting all tech FTs. Hope so… there is a light touch of a foreboding element to these things.
Paul is shooting FT 85.4% this year, but lately he is probably way over 90%
He made a small change to his FT form and he’s been just nailin’ ’em.
You mean he made another change?
In addition to the one Greg pointed out a couple of weeks ago… the reduction of wasted motion and simplification of his form? ’Cause the stats support some kind of change around January 19.
The C's lose again because....
1) The refs are against us because of Rasheed’s mouth not to mention those of KG, Pierce, Perkins and House.
2) Marquis Daniels is out of action.
3) Big Baby isn’t in game shape yet.
4) Doc isn’t playing Walker. (As an aside, at least there is only one young guy left getting DNPs now that Hudson is gone and Giddens is going under the knife.)
5) Ray Allen is just about washed up.
6) Team chemistry is off.
7) These games aren’t important anyway.
Most of those excu …, oops, I mean reasons make sense to everyone? If so, we can expect to knock off Orlando, Atlanta, Cleveland or anyone else coming our way in the East around playoff time, as long as the C’s remember that those games are in fact important.
But in case anyone out there is really concerned, the C’s could stand to tighten up some areas because they aren’t getting any younger, unless of course Ainge manages to snag Monte Ellis from the Warriors for Ray Allen. Maybe he could even get Ray back after the Warriors buy him out.
1) If one agrees that the team is not very athletic in comparison to its rivals, then perhaps they could impart upon a remedial course in the art of blocking out for rebounds.
2) They could have a personal trainer shadow Rasheed and Big Baby 24/7. How unhappy do you think the Magic are now that they didn’t land Wallace – and got to keep Gortat?
3) They could bring in a bonafide back-up point guard and stop kidding themselves that House, Tony Allen or Daniels are sufficient at the position.
4) They could make Ray Allen 6th man where he belongs at this stage in his career and also tell him to cease and desist trying to make plays other than shoot. He’s a walking turnover machine.
5) They could stop pointing out how they have one of the best records in the league so why is everyone worried. Oh, wait, they won’t be able to sing that song much longer.
6) Oh, yeah. They should play Walker and live with some mistakes. It’s not as if the other guys on the bench are lighting it up.
46 and out
46 wins and out in the first round. And even that might be toooooo optimistic. Sunday? Lakers 116, Celtics 91.
by Celtsfansince55 on Jan 30, 2010 3:47 AM EST reply actions
From good to poor
Almost unnoticed Pierce has gone from a good rebounding SF to a poor one.
by Celtsfansince55 on Jan 30, 2010 3:53 AM EST reply actions
bench play
we need a spark off the bench. we use to have that before. ainge! do something! sheed needs to lose weight! he’s slow as hell…slow to the rotations and takes ill-advised shots! ahhh!!! we just need that spark (dynamic scorer or back up pg) to get over this hump. celticpride baby!
I would love to see a Vinnie Johnson type scorer off the bench. I’m sure Ainge would too. Usually someone who’s playing like crap is hard to trade but I’m going out on a limb and predicting Big Baby gets moved. Someone will still value his size. Also I think our House will have a different address soon.
Rebounding
As hard as the celts played vs the hawks, they were outrebounded by 4. Much better than vs the Magic, but the Lackers will dominate the boards.tomorrow.
Is there anyone who understands why Sheldon Williams, a good rebounder who was getting lots of ft’s as well, now isn’t played EVER by Doc?
by nba is the worst on Jan 30, 2010 8:06 AM EST reply actions
lemonadesky, i agree with most of your points, in particular, the one where ray is the 6th man. for now, start tony which will boost his ego. minutes go to the one who is most on his game. tony did not have success against crawford and johnson, but he was more physical and they had to work harder. we need some kind of change to address the losing and the let’s wait for daniels mantra ain’t gonna do it. we can turn this around but adjustments need to be made.
sheed
he just had off night he will be ready for playoffs
honestly guys...
I think we’re all going to be pleasantly surprised by the end of the regular season…i think this team will be clicking before all is said and done. That’s not to say that this stretch of atrocious play is acceptable or not worrisome, I just think this team will figure it out and be competitive at the end of the day. I do have a question tho….how come sheldon doesnt get any burn? He’s big and physical and rebounds and bangs. Let’s get him some minutes doc!!
Wallace as advertised
Sheed is bad news,outta shape and don’t care…Shelden AND baby deserve his minutes but we’re stuck playing this guy….he ruins the 2nd unit…the worse part-Sheed brings EVERYBODY down and he don’t care..seen it here for years ,we took a flyer hoping he’d but into KG/Celts way and it blewup in our face…a couple dnpcd’s are in order
This thread is hysterical
because of the battle somewhere in the middle between two posters arguing over what teams someone should be a fan of. A classic tangent if I have ever seen one!
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