Rumors Updates
by Jeff Clark on Feb 10, 2010 10:23 AM EST
in Boston Celtics Rumors
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PrintSam Amick (an excellent beat writer for the Kings) reports that an Allen for Martin deal is unlikely:
Boston is legitimately interested in Martin, but that scenario doesn't look likely to go anywhere at the moment. A source close to the Celtics said they have not spoken to the Kings, but the two teams will likely talk soon.
If the Kings were to accept a deal giving them Ray Allen and sending the Celtics Martin and Andres Nocioni, the deal could very well get done. I don't see Petrie doing that, however. That move would free up approximately $17 million off the Kings' cap this summer and free up Martin's money that runs through 2013 and Nocioni's through 2012. It doesn't bring back talent beyond this season, obviously, as Allen's contract is expiring.
Despite the Kings' hopes of landing an impact big man, don't expect Celtics GM Danny Ainge to give up center Kendrick Perkins (or point guard Rajon Rondo, for that matter, if I even needed to verbalize that part).
Update/Note: Gabe Kahn informs me that a Celtics scout was at the Kings game last night (where Martin scored 9 of his 17 points in overtime). It should be noted, however, that the Celtics play the Kings on Tuesday, so this could simply be advance scouts.
Update 2: Another report that the Kings aren't interested in trading Martin (but what else are they going to say?).
Gary Washburn also checks in with some rumor reports, and covers much of the same ground. See example after the break.
A possible trade partner could be Sacramento, with shooting guard Kevin Martin, who is signed for three more years as part of a five-year, $55 million package. Martin has been an awkward fit for the Kings since the emergence of rookie Tyreke Evans. It is unclear whether Martin can mesh with a score-first point guard such as Evans.
But acquiring Martin might be contingent on accepting the contract of Andres Nocioni, who has two more years on his deal. According to Celtics sources, the organization is not interested in taking on "bad contracts'' that could hurt salary cap space.
Also, the Kings are seeking a legitimate center to play alongside cornerstone Jason Thompson and aren't eager to deal Martin if they can't get one in return.
As usual, stay tuned for updates. Should be an interesting couple of weeks.
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I guess the arrival of Tyreke Evans has changed all that.
by The Village Idiot on Feb 10, 2010 8:46 AM EST reply actions
Not sure BOS would do the deal, but very dumb if SAC wouldn't trade
That’s a lot of cap relief for two guys that don’t seem to fit a team struggling to put fannies in the seats.
trade deadline moves
I believe most of us are in agreement that this team needs a shake up. Whether your reason for thinking this is lack of chemistry or lack of skill, it still boils down to a roster change.
My opinion is that we gotta trade Ray (while he is loved and respected he is our best chip w/ his expiring contract) for another SG such as martin or iggy or ellis. I would not be opposed to trading picks as well. Secondly, i believe our need at back up PG could be filled through an aquisition using other expiring contracts or perhaps sheed (if we can find a suitor for his “bad” contract). Who that is idk, but even signing Tyronn Lue could work..
I believe if we can get a SG that can score 1 on 1 it should really open up our offense and create better passing lanes. A backup PG should eleviate some pressure on Marquis and allow the second team to run our offense as it was meant to be run.
Im all jacked up for the trade deadline, don’t let me down Danny!!!
Maybe
I kind of agree that we do need to make some kind of deadline deal. If only because it looks like this team is dead inthe water and with PP and KG having 2 years to go on their contracts it looks like we may be sinking rapidly. And Ray is our most tradeable asset and we lost that asset after the season.
However, as for a SG that can score 1 on 1, that’s not the answer. What did Doc say today about stopping ball movement. The guy is going to the bench. That’s one of our problem right now is that we’ve lost ball movement on offense. Everyone is trying to do it by themselves rather than trusting the system and his teammates.
they should trade with another team or not at all!
Trading with the Kings doesn’t make us better! Martin isn’t better than Ray and Nocioni is also an old guy, who has overcome his career best times. SO DANNY PLEASE DON’T TRADE WITH SACRAMENTO!!! Trade with the Suns, Sixers or maybe with the bulls.
I asked god and he said: L.A. will lose again next year!! ^_°
Just Say No to Nocioni
I think Kevin Martin is headed elsewhere if the Kings insist on including Nocioni in the deal. No one wants that cap albatross, whose play has declined.
I stil say the best Ray Allen deal is to Phoenix for Jason Richardson and Barbosa. Or why not get into the Amare Stoudemire sweepstakes?
However, I would not be opposed to a deal that sent Ray and Sheed to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace and Boris Diaw. BTW, I don’t believe the web banter about how much Larry Brown loves Sheed. He just loves Sheed a little more than he loves Glenn Davis LOL.
As for Davis, I still think he belongs with the Hornets. How about Davis and Giddens to NO for Julian Wright and Sean Marks? That doesn’t solve the backup pg problem, however, and I doubt if NO will part with Darren Collison with Chris Paul on the shelf.
Problem
“Just say no to Noc” right. I can make up all kinds of deals and they’ll work on trade checker no problem. BUT THE OTHER TEAM WON"Tdo that deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need to use some common sense.
Trades are made for several reason – 1 is basketball related – another is cap flexibility, another is Luxury Tax – still another is to rebuild with young players and draft picks – and there are many other reasons that a person can come up with. But to make a trade work. there has to be a give and take on both sides. That’s why so many of the trades on this board WON"T happen. So why would Phoenix trade Richardson and Barbose for Allen. They won’t
My Brain Dead Trade is Ray, Wallace, Scal, TA and Shelden Williams for Amare, Richardson and Barbosa. And it works on Trade check #5446751
That trade won’t happen either. We need to be somewhat realistic. If we want X we just might have to take Y, that might be the other team’s rationale for the trade. So if we want Martin we may have to take Noc. I’m not proposing we do this deal, but that might be what it comes down to. In almost any deal we will almost certainly have to take back something we don’t want to.
Well, here is my crazy idea
Baby, Sheed, Scal and maybe a #1 to Charlotte
Eddie to Phoenix
Chandler to Phoenix
Augistine to Phoenix
Stoudemire to Boston
trade deadline cant pass soon enough for me
i am sick of this trade rumor BS
how many games have we had a full squad for this season? give them a chance to gel i say
THANKYOU
thats exactly what ive been saying. we played one game wit the full sqaud. and we did very well in the first half. remember it was daniels first game back and pierce didnt look himself. so man, everyone needs to calm down in my eyes.
by WikedCeltsFan7 on Feb 10, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
team has a lot more issues than just injuries. they look old. they keep the team the same they are
not getting past round 2 of the playoffs
by celticinorlando on Feb 10, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
boy - we are so spoiled.
Not picking on you – just noting that just a couple of years back we’d have been thrilled to make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs.
If we do, I’ll take it – anything can happen if a team gets hot in May/June.
Agree 110%. There is a lot of basketball left to play and a healthy C’s squad will be motivated for the playoffs. Pace the starters, give the bench more time, play Sheed less and get ready for the playoffs. Let the Hawks, Magic and Cavs be favored in a playoff series with us. It will motivate these guys even more. Once the trade deadline passes, they will turn it up a notch. It must be a huge distraction for some of these guys and must affect their play. Play BBD more than Sheed and have Perk play in the 4thQ. Hell, I would play Shelden more than Sheed right now. At least he will hustle and get some rebounds.
Exactly. I wouldnt mind being the underdogs. (look at the saints!)
but yes there are so many distractions. everyday theres a new rumor. im getting tired of it myself.
and heres a question. why isnt perk playing alot in the 4th quarter? it doesnt make sense to me. im always yelling at the tv for him to go in for sheed.
by WikedCeltsFan7 on Feb 10, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Me too. I was afraid of this very thing when we signed Sheed and how it would affect Perk’s confidence. He needs to be in at crunch time. He is a solid defender, intimidating and has earned the right after last year’s heroic playoff effort. I cannot wait for the trade deadline to pass to we know who will be on our time at playoff time. Get a backup PG and another backup big and we are set. Do not disrupt the Big 3. We signed them for a 3 year window and let them play it out. As for trading Ray, there may be younger guys out there with potential, but you cannot put a price on intangibles. Ray is steady, has a great work ethic and experienced. Make him the 6th man, start Daniels and let’s get going already.
Kind of Agree and Disagree
I’ve been saying that we need to see what we have when we are 100 percent and healthy. Just like you. But I’ve seen a lot this season that I don’t like. Losses to Philly, Clips, GS, and we’ve also struggled against teams like Minn, NJ and Wash. Besides having Orlando and Atlanta own us. And it’s not just the losses, it’s the way we are losing. We get a lead and when the opponent makes a run, we seem powerless to stop them. We completely lose our minds and quit moving the ball and our defensive rotations break down. It seems like we get overwhelmed.
I agree we could turn it around and I’ve been hoping we would, but I’m not that confident anymore. But here’s the REAL issue, Ray’s contract is only valueable to us as a trade asset until Feb 18. When we put the Big 3 together, the window was 2-3 years, maybe 4. I remember the window with the original Big 3 and we kept trying to extend the window. How did that work out!!!!!! We went 22 years with no Banner. If we really aren’t a contender this year then we need to start re-tooling right now and get the best deal he can for Ray. I really don’t want to see Ray traded, I love the guy, what a professional. I’d love to see us win 1-2 or 3 more championships and have all 3 have number retired to the rafters. I just can’t see that happening!
The other issue is that after this year (Ray), what do we have for tradeable assets. Not much!!!! Our only real asset is RONDO!!!! Perk and BBD are decent but not going to bring any big package of players and draft choices. Further, we don’t even have extra draft choices and we can’t trade this year’s choice because we traded last year 1st Rd pick for KG.
to be fair the 22 yr drout wasn't entirely due to holding onto the Big 3
The deaths of Lenny Bias and Reggie Lewis were a significant factor as well.
But yeah, the clock is ticking right now.
It is unfortunate that the first of the current Big 3 to have his contract reach expiring status (and thus tradable status) is the one that has been the most healthy and contributing this year.
Further, replacing Ray’s value for the near term (perimeter shooting SG) does not really help us long term. For the long term, we want a young big to replace KG. But getting a young big man doesn’t help us this year if we move Ray because moving Ray will create a big giant hole in our current makeup.
Sigh … i’m not seeing a lot of happy things until we can eventually get KG’s contract off our backs.
I was hoping that KG would be able to play at a productive level at least into next year. He was earlier this year. If he can recover his health to that point we may still be okay.
We're sitting pat
Is my hope. But if we do trade Ray we’re not bringing in guys who can’t play defense, i.e., most of the names being bandied about). Somebody like Hinrich would do, depending on who else comes along in the deal.
No to Hinrich
We don’t need to give up our starting SG for someone who would end up as a bench PG.
Hinrich does NOT make us stronger as a starting SG – he’s not a true SG, he’s too short and despite Ray not being as strong as he was years ago – Ray is still a far better SG at this point in time than Hinrich. So the only role that Hinrich makes stronger is bench PG.
You don’t make yourself better for the playoffs by weakening your starting lineup.
Unless we got someone else in the deal who makes some other part of our starting lineup stronger it makes no sense. Who are you going get and who among Perk, KG, Paul or Rondo are you going to bench?
Deal unlikely
It isn’t going out on a limb to say that a deal is unlikely. Where are all the bold writers?
by Celtico on Feb 10, 2010 10:29 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I think both deals will happen
It’s going to be Ray to Sacramento for Martin and Nocoini (ugh), plus BBD and Giddens to Charlotte for Augustin and Stephen Graham.
Essentially, Nocioni becomes BBD’s very expensive replacement.
Ugh is right
I can’t imagine watching Nocioni in a Cs uniform. Useless player. But we’re only getting Martin if we take him. So I hope we aren’t getting Martin.
stick with our team
I for one would like to see DA give his big 3 one last run. ok with trading a benchplayer or picking up a freeagent.
Yeah we look old.
& yeah we’re stinking it up against the elite teams… but it’s feb. & we have only played one game with a full roster.
i still think this team has one last run left. So my hope is team see our current roster back at the garden when we play the knicks.
we will get is together and prove the rest of the nba that the championship team of 08 is not dead yet.
gotta believe… that’s why I’m a are fan.
yes yes and yes
and if we still play bad after like 5 or so games with our full sqaud. i say move tony allen or marquis daniels to start for ray, and have ray come off the bench like manu ginobli. i think thats a great idea.
by WikedCeltsFan7 on Feb 10, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
i want to agree but...
it won’t be “one last run” for the Big 3 as you say. Basically, our only chance to do anything major is this trade deadline. With Ray’s contract coming off the books next summer, we are STILL over the cap and thus can’t sign free agents except for our own players and the MLE…
by milt palacio's shot on Feb 10, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
boston won't do anything. and those saying that injuries are the reason they are struggling
are fooling themselves. they have more issues than just being injured…everyone has injuries. boston doesn’t have the heart, drive or will to be an elite team right now. there is some sort of chemistry issue and this team seems divided.
by celticinorlando on Feb 10, 2010 11:06 AM EST reply actions
Hinrich would not be worse than Ray Allen. He’s a better ball handler and a better defender than Ray. Nothing wrong with that.
He's a fine ball handler and fine man defender
on PGs.
He’s too short to cover taller SGs.
He also is nowhere near the shooter Ray is so he doesn’t space the offense like Ray. That is the primary purpose of a Shooting Guard. Especially in the Celtic offense.
As of today, this moment, Ray is a much much better SG in almost every sense than Hinrich is. Especially for the Celtics THIS year.
This is not to say that Hinrich isn’t a fine basketball player. He is. But his strengths are not the same as Rays and they overlap with Rondo’s more. And his weaknesses (relative to Ray) are in the skills that are needed by an SG in the Celtic system.
You can be so confusing at times...
He also is nowhere near the shooter Ray is so he doesn’t space the offense like Ray. That is the primary purpose of a Shooting Guard. Especially in the Celtic offense. As of today, this moment, Ray is a much much better SG in almost every sense than Hinrich is. Especially for the Celtics THIS year.
Well, if Ray is such a potent offensive weapon, then how come you’ve been arguing in previous posts that the Cs aren’t getting it done offensively? Since you admit that Hinrich is a fine ball handler and man defender, I would argue that makes him just what we need – he can slow down the opposing team, and generate instant offense for the Cs (defense generates offense). And…
This is not to say that Hinrich isn’t a fine basketball player. He is. But his strengths are not the same as Rays and they overlap with Rondo’s more. And his weaknesses (relative to Ray) are in the skills that are needed by an SG in the Celtic system.
…since we have a need for a good backup PG, Hinrich’s skiil overlap with Rondo fills that needs as well – two birds with one stone. And by the way, if you’re going to compare Ray and Hinrich, you can’t ignore the age issue ( and the rapid decline of skills as a consequence). Hinrich will be 29 whileRay is 35. Shouldn’t that figure into the equation.
One more thing, those who keep talking about how the Cs just need to get healthy should understand that when you age, you’re more likely to suffer more injuries, or take longer to heal when you get injured.
by The Village Idiot on Feb 10, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
First off – I am fine with trading Ray if it makes the team better. My problem here is that a swap of Ray for Hinrich weakens the starting lineup at the dubious benefit of strengthening the bench. You weaken the team at a position that plays 36 minutes per game (starting SG) for a marginal boost of a role that plays 8-12 minutes (bench PG). In the playoffs, we are going to want Rondo to play over 40 minutes. That further devalues having a good bench PG.
My argument has no where made statements like “Ray is such a potent offensive weapon”. My argument here is that Hinrich’s skills as a shooting guard are simply inferior right now to Ray’s.
If we are going to trade Ray then it should be for either some sort of upgrade at SG (short OR long term is fine) or one of the other starting positions (enough to outweigh the loss at SG).
Yes, the C’s most definitely need to improve on offense.
The problems on offense are very basic and have nothing to do with Ray in particular. To generate more points you have to take more shots and/or make more of them.
The number of shots they take is impaired by their current high rate of turnovers. They are turning the ball over on 17% of their possessions. To be a championship caliber team they need to get that down to 14-15%. That doesn’t sound like a lot, but it is. That corresponds to – on average- about 2-3 pts every game based on their current offensive efficiency. Their current point differential is too small – only about 5.5 pts. That’s terrible. Bumping it up to 8-9 would be a huge improvement. They can also probably squeeze another point or two out of improved perimeter shooting which should come back through natural statistical regression. They arent’ likely to get much more differential out of the defensive end – they already are holding teams to the lowest scoring in the league.
And no, before you ask – Ray is not the source of all those turnovers. Most are on our big men – too many ball handling TOVs and Offensive Fouls. I’m looking at YOU, Mr. Perkins …
Some good points but...
I think you make some good points, but they are based on certain assumptions I don’t agree with:
1. You assume that Hinrich weakens the Cs. I would argue that Ray playing too many minutes a result of his reputation as clutch, when the reality is that he is as clutch anymore. Maybe with Ray gone, we won’t be in those kinds of situations as much.
2. How a player fits into a new team is a known unknown we know we cannot know how that would turn out. You simply cannot make that case until the player actually gets here. Please recall the Big 3 – we were told they could never gel together because fo thei regos. We were also told that Ray doesn’t play any defense. And PP wasn’t playing any defense until Doc and Thibedou got him to. Human beings are dynamic, they can adapt to meet changing realities.
3. On offense, I agree with you somewhat, especially with the TOs. And this is where Hinrich as a better ball handler can make a difference so the bigs are not handling the ball as much. That should reduce the TOs. Additionally, Hinrich’s better defense should also generate better offense. Again two birds with one stone. And compared to Hinrich, Ray does commit more TOs.
4. If we stand pat, and I think that would be a huge mistake, then you have accepted that status quo of three aging starts as the way forward? Since we can’t win with them, and their skilsl are fast deteriorating, does that mean you’re for going into rebuilding mode? Back to the draft?
by The Village Idiot on Feb 10, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm...
1) I don’t have a clue what you are trying to say here. “Clutchness” has nothing to do with my argument.
2) Sure lots of mediots may have been saying silly crap like that. But people who know basketball knew right away that KG, Pierce & Ray were all perfectly complementary pieces. Danny & Doc knew that. The fact is, not all bodies are interchangeable. Each player has different strengths and weaknesses. What makes a TEAM stronger is when the various strengths are complementary and hide each other’s weaknesses.
3) How can Hinrich’s better ball handling help reduce the turnovers caused by offensive fouls by the bigs? That makes no sense. These are not ball-handling fouls. These are typically moving screen fouls or push-offs – Perk doesn’t even have the ball in hand when they happen. Ray’s ball-handling skills are not the problem in the slightest. His ball-handling turnovers are very low.
4) Standing pat is only worse than making a trade that improves the team. Trading for the sake of trading is stupid. Especially if it makes the team worse. ‘Standing Pat’ doesn’t mean you have given up – it means you pursue different tracks forward. Remember – the motivation to trade Ray has NOTHING to do with his level of play – despite what some idiots around here might post. His level of play is still way above average for an SG in the NBA. The motivation to trade him comes solely from the value of his expiring contract. So if we ‘stand pat’ we aren’t suddenly worse off for THIS year – Ray is still better than most SG options out there for THIS year. It just doesn’t immediately strengthen us for NEXT year. However, we’d still retain some benefits. Although still over the cap, we’d get some significant financial relief from Rays expiring contract – even if use his Bird rights to resign him at a lower rate. We’d then still have the MLE to add at least one player with. If we go that route, yes, we are hoping that the Big 3 (plus Sheed) can stay healthy and compete for at least one more year. That could be a tough year. But after that, KG & Sheed’s contract would be tradeable expirables with a ton of value. And if we did resign Ray as a two-year, so would his. 2012 would either result in a ton of trades or a huge recovery of salary cap room with which to build with FAs.
The best scenario is for Danny to trade Ray for a great deal that actually strengthens the team for this year and the future. But if he can’t find such, its not a disaster. Trading Ray for a deal that makes us worse would be.
There are lots of options. Folks need to stop with the doom & gloom.
If we play TA and Marquis
we’ll save Paul and Ray, so they can become more effective in fewer minutes. If we play more Baby and Sheldon, we’ll do the same for KG and Sheed and improve the overall level of intensity on the team.
Finding the right deal for Ray is going to be tough. We might just have to hope Doc, Clifford and Tom do a better job with what we’ve currently got. Clifford needs to put the screws to Sheed and Sheldon.
rest is key
we have the pieces give the old guys more rest
by Warrior Spirit on Feb 10, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Trade away the big 3 for expirings?
OK – this could be ridiculous, but bear with me for a second – just hypothetically…
if management thought a championship was out of reach and was not going to let sentimentality get in the way, what would be the downside to trading away the big three for expirings and (along with the expirings we already have) become a serious player in the free agent games this summer?
The cap space plus the starting anchors of Rondo/Perk could appeal to a D. Wade-type player, no? I’d be curious to hear what people think of this.
Good luck finding someone to take on KGs contract.
KG & Sheed run through 2012. We are not going to get serious cap room until then.
Thanks - KG was one of the pieces I was missing...
Just looked up his contract – who’s going to pay 16-and-change-mil a year for him at this point in his career
Exactly.
Which is why personally I think the urgency to trade Ray or anybody right now is overstated.
We won’t have the ability to truly restructure the team until we move KG’s contract off the books either by letting it expire or by trading it as an expiring (during 2012).
We maximize our bang that year by avoiding taking on any long term contracts that span far past that.
So all that talk of winning now is just that?
Your projections assume a lot of things would just happen because you have the cap space. I wouldn’t bet on that. Trying to blow it all up in 2012 or 2013 based on the perceived cap room at that time completely ignores the other side of the equation – player availability.
Secondly, it seems all that talk about winning another championship with this Big 3 is now being accepted as unrealistic?
by The Village Idiot on Feb 10, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Who said that?
They are still viable this year and maybe next. Yes a lot depends on health. That is true of every team. But if healthy, this team has all the pieces still to contend right now.
In 2012 there are at least two vehicles for improving the team. One is through trading those giant expiring contracts for players who are under contract and the other is through letting them expire and using the room to sign players who are not.
The team isn’t good enough right now and they need to make a change. We need players that can score and we are not getting that from this current roster. A team that gives up leads as the norm is not a contender. You can hope that they turn it around, but what evidence do we have that they can? If they are on cruise then this team is lost anyway because they should be trying to win and get HC. I don’t believe you can just flip the switch.It has nothing to do with injuries or chemistry. It’s either age, loss of hunger, selfishness or all of the above. If these guys are not out to win each night then they shouldn’t be starting.
We see a pattern here, and thats one of losing and no energy. Teams that have this do not win a championship. Even with our injuries we shouldn’t have a problem with the lesser teams, but we have seen that they struggled this season.
agree that a change needs to be made... not necessarily a trade
I think a change to the starting lineup might help fix the team’s problems. The proposal is this:
Marquis moves to the starting lineup in place of Ray. Ray gets reduced minutes down to around 25-30 a night, many of which are coming as the primary scoring option with the second unit. The starting lineup gets some needed athleticism and some solid defense, while the second string gets balanced players (Tony, Ray) and more consistent scoring.
Part 2 is that Doc needs to hold players accountable. Mostly I mean Rasheed, but other players too. Let Williams or Walker play if someone else is dogging it. These two things can do a lot to change the mentality which the team is bringing to games. I think our puzzle pieces are great, but they’re not arranged properly
by milt palacio's shot on Feb 10, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
celtics
Keep the team together, we had the best record in the NBA, till KG went down, then Pierce added to the misery getting injured. Losing two guys like that would kill any team. If they can get back to good health, we still have a shot at #18. Next year we can take another look at it. Busting up the team now will set us back two months, before we recover, if at all. Its not like we are getting blown out, we have been in just about every game right till the end. We just need to tweek a little. Lets face it Kg and Pierce are still healing and they are not playing all out, because they are afraid of getting reinjured, and I dont blame them. In a couple of weeks when there conditioning, and confidence returns they will be ready to give it Hell again.
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