More Chicago Trade Chatter

Sure I would. You’re not getting a superstar for Ray. But a Kevin Martin, a Luol Deng is possible. If offered, especially with Thomas, Ainge should think long and hard on that one.

As Danny said, make a minor tweak and keep the rest of the team intact. I interpret the tweak to be moving Scal and Allen’s expiring contract. Allen has played well of late, but Daniels can do the job better. If we get Henrich, then Allen even more expendable.

Magic loss to the Cavs last night gives them 18 losses, tied in the loss column with the Celtics and the Hawks. Although both hold the tie breaker over us, it is incredible to think, with the way the C’s have played since xmas, that we can still be a second seed in the playoffs if we can make an good run after the break. The West Coast swing after the break is brutal, though, so hopefully we can come out at least even.

Deng and Thomas? No way Chicago does that, do they?

In my fantasy, I can justify why the Bulls would make such a trade – Enough cap space to get Wade, Bosh and resign a class act (Ray) to stretch the defense.

Deng was the primary piece when Bryant was rumored to be on the block.

I would jump at this. Move Paul to the 2 guard. If not, then at least get Ty Thomas, especially if he can be gotten for expirings. No brainer. Not so keen on Heinrich. He would be a good back up PG/2G, but could not start with Rondo. Too small. Love his defense though.

either
Deng/Hinrich
Deng/Thomas
Deng/Thomas/Salmons

for Ray in a heart beat.

….it will never happen. The whole reason to move Deng would be to force a package with either Hinrich or Salmons to clear major cap space.

deng, hinrich
both have proven to be shutdown defenders
hinrich would be the perfect 1st guard off the bench
deng is a stud

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yg5n3er

Ray/Giddens for Hinrich/Deng

salary adds up almost exact, and this may seem like an unfair deal because Kirk and Luol together are worth more than Ray. You can’t argue with 19 Mil coming off in exchange for two players that aren’t part of your core.

Regardless of which player we get, is it really in the long-term interest of the Celtics to help the Bulls get both Wade and Bosh?

There isn’t a player on their roster that would put us over the top this year, and if they pair Wade and Bosh with Rose and Noah I think we can forget about a Championship for the next few years as well. (Unless we somehow get LeBron or Carmelo, of course, and I think you can guess the chances of that happening.)

Wow, too many possibilities to make a trade. I hope we can get something done within a week.

Deng, Salmons & Pargo for Ray Allen & Giddens

Why for the Cs ~

Many reasons. The one that stands out: Deng as a major defensive upgrade when you consider him taking turns with Pierce & Daniels (with a little Tony Allen sprinkled in) against the top opposing players (Lebron, Lewis, Johnson, Kobe, etc). Leaving aside Ray’s fine performance on Kobe, Pierce needs the defensive wing help – emotionally and physically. The Cs are immediately become the deepest team in basketball, which should help make up for the nagging injuries during the stretch run. Deng’s young – a nice long-term addition to go with Rondo and Perk into the next generation.

The Cs payroll jumps to ~$81.5 for 9 players in 2010, before their two draft picks and any signings IF Salmons stays in his deal. If he opts out – thanks, nice knowing you. Add in their two draft picks and it’s likely around $83mil for 11 players before FA signings but without many holes. The Cs can fill out the bench signing Daniels or TA (not likely) or Pargo or House or whoever else with some or all of the MLE or vet min deals, and maintain their current (high) payroll for another year while staying in / extending the championship hunt. If PP is willing to ‘opt out’ in order to structure a friendly agreement with less next year but more total years, it’s a win-win that helps reduce ownership’s tax burden.

 Why for the Bulls ~

Cap room. They really want to move salary. As Chad Ford of ESPN recently put it:

"If they can trade Hinrich and/or John Salmons for expiring contracts, they can make a pitch to both LeBron James and Chris Bosh this summer. Can you imagine a team with James, Bosh, Derrick Rose, Luol Deng and Joakim Noah? I guarantee you John Paxson can, and if Bosh isn’t traded before the deadline, the Bulls appear to have a chance make it happen."

First off, they can’t move Hinrich. No one is taking $17mil of him for the next two years to get just… him. Jerry Buss ain’t doing it when he thinks they can win it all with what they have and NOT pay an additional $9mil in luxury tax next year. And I don’t think Ty Thomas makes him worth it. So instead they’re forced to move Deng. They clear $17mil more cap space for the summer of 2010, bringing their total salary to $20mil for Rose, Hinrich, Noah, Taj Gibson and James Johnson (assuming they ditch Thomas) on a projected cap of $52-55mil. They immediately become the prime destination for the FA class of 2010 considering their cap space, the team core and the city / tradition. They could then potentially sign 2 max FAs (or very close to it), or re-sign Ray Allen then sign one max FA and have a little left over for role players, or sign-and-trade Ray for a very good supporting player then sign a max FA. Lots of options.

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Pretty scary – not sure I want to help the Bulls do it, but our window is short as it stands currently. It’s all about Banner 18, though I think Deng would be a great complimentary piece now and into the future. By all accounts he’s a model citizen and a hard worker who will fit in well – one of my biggest concerns about trading Ray. Shooting and spacing does become a bit of an issue, especially considering much of the offense is structured for Ray. Ray’s plays can be run for Eddie, but it’s obviously not the same, and will he still be in the rotation? He handled demotion well 2 years ago and responded in the playoffs when needed. Salmons can shoot, but he’s had a disappointing year and he’s not an off-the-pick catch-and-shoot guy. He played well after being traded last year. Deng has a propensity for long 2s – can he shoot the 3? Pargo’s a nice little addition – lord knows the 2nd unit could use some instant offense at the 1. You could even make it Deng and Hinrich (no Pargo), though the financial implications get pretty scary for ownership.

There’s risk here, but it’s tempting and probably more sensible than a deal for Iguodala and Delambert (Sixers trading in the division? LOTS of salary next year), or Martin and Nocioni or Garcia (Martin’s more injury prone than Deng, and the second contract is awful). Monta Ellis is a weird fit with Rondo, and I don’t get the sense he gives a hoot. I don’t see much else out there. I don’t see a good fit with the Mavs. We could piece together some other expirings (probably Scal, either TA or Eddie, and Giddens) for Maggette, but he’s a knucklehead with blinders on and about 15 years left on his deal (hat tip — Chris Mullen), and I’m not sure our depth can take the hit.

I’m comfortable standing pat with Ray and maybe looking for a back-up PG before or after the deadline. But if we are going to trade Ray, I think this is the deal.

…there is no way we take that much money back for essentially a role player…

any chance the C’s could manage to ‘dump’ KG’s and/or Pierce’s contract to a contender for expiring contracts?

Remember back in the day when Chicago had all the cap room after the Jordan dynasty and were going to get Duncan, McGrady, et al. That never happened anf wondering whether any of the the current top studs will want to go to the windy city. Pretty cold there in the winter. Miami would be a nicer climate.

Both Deng and Hinrich are very, very good players. I think from a VALUE perspective, including the value of Ray’s expiring contract, that something like Ray&Giddens for Deng&Hinrich wouldn’t be bad.

But as folks described it above – as additions to the current team, they are both bench players – Deng behind Pierce and Hinrich behind Rondo. And we already have Daniels (who is already an excellent backup at point for offense) and TA (unless he gets moved as well) as athletic SF-sized plus-defenders. Who plays SG? We wouldn’t have a perimeter threat in our starting lineup. Hinrich is awful short to insert at SG against any of the big SGs we have to get past. And if we slide Daniels or TA into that spot, we have no perimeter threat.

I’m not knocking the value of this deal at all. But I don’t see how it makes basketball sense for this team unless we also pickup a starting SG who is a legitimate perimeter threat somehow.

The problem is that we aren’t realistically going to be moving Rondo, KG, Perk & Pierce out of the starting lineup through at least this next year. Of those guys, only Pierce has a decent perimeter shot that commands the respect of a defender. Thus unless we have a Ray-like perimeter shooter on the opposite corner who can also force close coverage, defenders will just sag off everybody BUT Pierce. That will make the paint a mess for anyone to work in. We just saw NO do that very thing in this last game.

I don’t want to see that every time they take the floor. This deal unquestioningly weakens the starting 5. Strengthening your bench won’t make up for that – especially in the playoffs.

Plus, strategically do we want to be freeing up that much cap room for Chicago – a rival in the East? They could potential build a very powerful squad immediately for next year.

If we did this deal, we’d basically be saying we were just biding time and moving assets around for the next couple of years until we could truly rebuild.

I’d rather do a deal with a western team and preferably one that either includes a better Ray replacement (if we want to compete over the next two years) or a stud young PF (if we are punting and building for the future).

Bur Hinrich, Thomas, AND Deng (or Salmons)…

How can I put this politely? Um, Chicago’s players outside of Rose—and the jury’s still out on him—suck, and I wouldn’t touch any of them with a ten-foot pole.

Thoughts on Hinrich: He’s certainly not worth his salary, but that doesn’t make him a poor player. He only has two years left, and he’s a great option to have on the bench, or a good starter when complementing certain playstyles. I’m not convinced he’d pair very well with Rondo in your backcourt, but he’d certainly be a decent (yet overpaid) bench piece. However, note that he’s extremely well-liked in the Bulls organization (to an irrational extent, I’m afraid), and he’s likely over-valued because of this.

Thoughts on Deng: Deng is not a star, nor will he ever be. However, he’s pretty much as close as you can come to one. His play is punctuated by great rebounding and top-notch defense, and he’s a good complementary offensive player. He likes the long jumper too much to ever really hurt any team offensively (or spread the floor enough to facilitate for others), but on a team with KG/Pierce/Rondo he wouldn’t have to shoulder any real offensive load, allowing him to concentrate on his defense and rebounding. He’s worth his contract as long as he stays healthy, and he’s a great piece to have in my opinion. Most everyone (org and fans) feel he’s part of the “core,” but also feel he’s the most expendable.

Thoughts on Tyrus Thomas: We’re probably not asking much for him simply because he has little value; the Bulls org has pretty much wasted his talent and hasn’t committed to developing him at all. Our extremely intelligent coaches (re: sarcasm) have refused to give him meaningful playing time, and yank him from the game the second he makes any mistake. We won’t even play him in the name of hopefully increasing his trade value; instead we play the scrappy (and inferior in almost every way) Taj Gibson. At this point his only use to the Bulls is to sweeten a deal that involves us trading Salmons or Hinrich for expiring contracts.

Best case scenario for the Bulls would be something like Hinrich/Salmons (+pick?) for Allen, but I can’t imagine the Celtics doing that unless Gar Forman spikes Ainge’s drink or something. I personally wouldn’t like Deng/Salmons (or Hinrich) for Allen/whatever if only because I don’t like the idea of trading away an established elite player for the chance at overpaying Joe Johnson or David Lee or whoever.