Big Trade Rumor: Ray For Butler & Jamison
by Jeff Clark on Feb 12, 2010 11:10 AM EST
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PrintWizards, Celts in swap talks - NBA - Yahoo! Sports
In a dramatic move that would resuscitate their fading championship hopes, the Boston Celtics are discussing a deal with the Washington Wizards for forwards Antawn Jamison and Caron Butler, league sources told Yahoo! Sports on Friday. The proposed deal would send the expiring contracts of Ray Allen, Brian Scalabrine and J.R. Giddens to the Wizards, a move that would signal the start of Washington’s rebuilding process.
The trade isn’t imminent, but talks have progressed and Celtics GM Danny Ainge has positioned his organization to make one of the boldest trade deadline moves in years. For the Celtics, ownership would have to agree to take on an additional $24 million in salary next season between Jamison and Butler. Jamison makes more than $15 million in 2011-12, but most owners are discounting those salaries because of an assumption that there will be a labor lockout and some, if not all, of that money will never be paid to the players.
Sources expected the two teams to talk further Friday and throughout the weekend in Dallas.
Both Boston and Washington still have discussions with several teams in the works, including a potential Wizards-Mavericks deal that league sources insisted was discussed well into Thursday night in Dallas.
Wow. Just wow. I like it. I like it a lot.
Butler replaces Ray Allen's production and we grab Jamison in the mix? No brainer. I know Jamison has a rep for being allergic to defense, but I've always liked him a lot and in the right system I think he'd be a game changer. Bonus points for stealing him out from under the nose of the Cavs.
Man, Danny Ainge is as subtle as a sledgehammer and as timid as a tiger. This would shake things up in a good way and in a very big way. It reads like a trade idea from our forums, but there it is in print on Yahoo!'s page. Too good to be true? Maybe. But desperate times call for desperate measures for Washington. If Houston has hesitations picking up all that future salary, we might be their next best option.
About the only downside I can see in this deal is adding $23+M in salaries for next year, which means Wyc would be opening up the checkbook in a big way. Still, Butler's deal is off the books next year, so if none of this works out, you can either let him walk or turn him into the next expiring contract Danny could shop around the league.
Some are pointing out the roster imbalance this would create, but I don't see it as a significant issue. I believe Caron could start at the 2 and give Pierce some rest at the 3. Jamison would be an ideal 6th man and would give us better perimeter shooting than Sheed and add some rebounding numbers to boot. Sheed moves to primarily backing up Perkins. Daniels can still help out at the 2 and ball-handling duties and House can still stretch the floor for us. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Glen Davis moved for a point guard like Augustin.
Would the Wizards entertain buying out Ray Allen, allowing him to return the the Celtics after the waiting period? It is possible. They fit the mold of a team that would be interested in saving some short term cash. Their fanbase is resigned to the blow-it-up option and they'll have no use for Ray who would only hurt their draft position. Still, I'd pull the trigger on the deal even if it meant losing Ray forever.
Speaking of the draft, I'd have to assume a pick or two would be requested in this deal. But I'd gladly give them up since we'd just be picking at the end of the first round anyway.
It is amusing how Danny hinted at making a minor trade just a day or so ago and now we have this ginormous rumor. The lesson as always is don't believe anything a GM has to say prior to the deadline. Also, take all rumors (like this one) with the appropriate grain of salt.
More analysis here:
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THIS year?
Who provides a perimeter threat in the starting unit beside Pierce once Ray is gone?
Butler is lousy from beyond the arc.
This move would look awesome if Jamison was not 33 yrs old himself.
Okay .. IF they buyout Ray and we can get him back in time for the playoffs
then this would all work.
Expensive, but it would work.
And that’s a big IF.
Thats why in my comments below I say I like the deal if......
the C’s can resign Allen.
If not then they can always plug up that weak spot via a buyout signing since shooting guards are a dime a dozen and can be found rather easily and cheaply.
Really? SGs are a dime a dozen?
Where? Who? When?
Yeah
But not all of them are one of the two or three best three-point shooters who’s every lived.
I agree, thats why in a perfect world I would want him to resign withthe C's.
I am just saying if he does not resign with the C’s, we can fill in the gap by obtaining another shooting guard via a buy out signing on the cheap.
Since guards are abundantly available in the NBA compared to most of the other player positions the C’s should be able to find a shooting guard who can shoot 33% from 3 point land as Ray is shooting this year.
And again we still have House on the roster who’s role may increase which may help him improve his own 3 point % also that will help fill the gap.
Wait - are you saying you'd take just anybody who can shoot?
How do you expect to deploy this phantom SG? Are they starter quality?
Because the starting unit is is what I’m talking about. Eddie provides this function for the bench unit. Do you propose to promote him to take Ray’s place with the starters and pickup ‘just any ol’ shooting guard’ to take Eddie’s minutes?
How many minutes are we talking about for each? Who is deployed on the floor with whom?
Who starts? KG or Jamison? If you agree we still need to pickup a different starting SG – Butler is coming off the bench? Or are you starting him in place of Paul? No way – same problem with not enough outside threat.
I’m not saying the deal doesn’t work – but there are a lot of questions that have to be answered.
We aren’t getting any better if we make the starting unit weaker. Beefing the bench at the cost of weakening your starting 5 is not how you win championships. Your starters are going to play the most minutes and you want those pieces to properly complement each other.
Well first I think Danny does this deal only if gets assurances Allen can be bought out
so he can resign with the C’s which would solve the problem of losing him and his outside shooting that the initial trade caused.
I just do not see Ainge doing it if a buy out of Ray is not part of the deal so to speak.
But if Ray does not resign, It think they have no choice but to start House in place of Ray and sign another backup shooter for the bench.
Or if a buy out signing brings in a more talented then House, start him and keep House on the bench.
House and the shooting guard we would sign would platoon at the shooting guard position with whoever is hot and shooting well between the 2 getting the most minutes for that particular game.
Keep in mind Ray did not give us much else on the floor other than shooting, so if House and the shooting guard we eventually would sign can shoot at the same field goal % as Ray did, the starters should still have the same effectivness as they did when Ray was on the floor with them or at least not lose much more effectivness.
The bench after the deal becomes instantly deep and more talented (and this is the key) will with its added talent and depth make up for any net loss suffered to the team with Ray gone from the starting line up.
Having Daniels, TA, Butler, Jamison, Rasheed, Baby and a shooting guard TBA is a deep talented bench and one to be reckoned with.
You will still start KG and Paul I say so team chemistry is not disrupted more then it is with Ray gone, but Butler and Jamison will be getting big minutes (maybe more then Pierce &r KG especially in games where they are struggling) to keep KG and Pierce fresh.
Again I like the trade really only if Ray Allen can be resigned so we avoid the problems caused of losing Ray .
Lets hope if the trade is made we get him back .
We will just have to wait and see what happens.
mostly concur
But this statement:
“Keep in mind Ray did not give us much else on the floor other than shooting”
is NOT one I would agree with. Ray was/is responsible for a ton of things with this team. Doc leans heavily on him for floor leadership – he spends more minutes with the second unit than any other starter. Ray also understands and executes the team defensive concepts better than pretty much anyone else on the floor – certainly way beyond Eddie. He certainly has spent more minutes executing it this year than anyone else! Ray is a much better man defender than Eddie, and not just because he’s taller.
Ray also is excellent at slashing along the baseline – in fact that has been one of his bread and butter skills this year.
Having Daniels back is the first step towards taking some of that responsibility off Ray’s shoulders – Doc trusts Daniels with the floor leadership role for the 2nd unit. So a Ray replacement would not need to provide that.
We’d have to hope that the talent upgrades elsewhere makeup for any defensive shortcomings from playing Eddie or whomever.
Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that and instead a more ideal solution takes shape.
Jamison is outshooting Ray both at the arc and overall
So what if Butler isn’t good from 3, his overall FG% is not much worse than Ray this year, on a bad team too
by nba is the worst on Feb 12, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
How about with the game on the line
Ray has ice in the veins
So, you want Jamison out on the perimeter and Butler in the paint?
Seriously, you are slightly off. Here are their real percentages
Ray Jamison Butler
FG% 45.0% 45.0% 42.2%
3P% 33.8% 34.5% 26.3%
FT% 89.2% 70.0% 87.7%
TS% 56.8% 52.8% 50.6%
Of Jamison scores a higher percentage of his shots in the post – that keeps his raw FG% up there (SAME as Ray not better). But his True Shooting % is significantly lower.
This also ignores that Ray’s 3PT% is trending back towards his career numbers – which are much much higher (39%), while Jamison’s is at his career average (which is only a hair above Sheed’s, btw).
At any rate the point is really about spacing and the other personnel in the starting 5. You have to put somebody at the SG position. If the other 4 consist of Rondo, Perk, KG/Jamison & Pierce – then unless the SG can shoot the 3 and command respect of the defense, Pierce will be the only one tightly covered on the perimeter and the rest of the defense will simply play soft so as to sag into the paint. This will deny our slashers access to the hoop. We just saw this exact defense in the 2nd half of the last game.
Having just one other among the starting 5 who’s long-range shot can force his defender to play him tight makes a huge difference to the rest of the offense.
Okay, but still Problems
I’m okay with the deal but there are still problems:
1. KG – If he’s not close to being the real KG, this team still can’t win a championship.
2. This deal does nothing to improve our inside game or defense.
Okay, but still Problems
I’m okay with the deal but there are still major problems:
1. KG – If KG isn’t KG or close to it we aren’t winning this year with this trade.
2. PP – He need to recover from his foot injury and better start playing like the captain
3. This trade does not address our inside defense or lack of rebounding that has plagued this team all year.
4. AJ and Butler are not defensive stalwarts and it’s been proven for the last 2 months that we can’t stop anyone when WE NEED to.
5. We add 2 guys who want shots and there are only so many available.
6. These guys are not the type to run and play transition offense, which would get us easy opportunities, another team weakness.
7. We will lack Ray’s clutch shooting in close games.
8. Also, look at next year salary cap and this is the team that we will have next year. 8 guys account for almost 87M and we have to have 13 players on the roster per the CBA. We have a 1st rd pk there’s another 1M – So do we bring back Daniels, House, TA. To do that will put us close to 95M (which is not my problem as a fan) or do we fill the roster with D Leaguers?
9. Lastly, I don’t see Wash buying out Ray and if they do and he does come back we now have another guy who needs Shots. We would then have 5 guys who are use to averaging 20 pts per game. Seems like a recipe for chemistry issues.
And I’m sure there are other issues other can come up with. Like I said, I’m for the trade, but just hope we don’t become the Boston Knicks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously?
This seems SO unlikely, but if it can be done I can’t see how it wouldn’t be the greatest move by Ainge since 2007
by nba is the worst on Feb 12, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Expand the Trade
Give Washington Glen Davis and get back Randy Foye. Then this trade is even better and all the salaries work on Espn’s trade machine!
by #1lakerhater on Feb 12, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
IMO
Davis is a wide body, but is not a big man. He can’t block shots. He can’t elevate to dunk. What he does, he does well, but when he tries to do “big man moves” he gets stuffed and turns the ball over.
by thirstyboots18 on Feb 12, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
lol I haven't watched enough Celtics games
I just remember him and Leon Powe tearing it up together in a playoff game a while back
wow I'm also speechless.
I’ve been sitting on here saying keep Ray keep Ray, that it’d only ruin the chemistry left from that championship team in 08. but man, if this is true and possible, it would change the whole celtics season. mannnnn
by WikedCeltsFan7 on Feb 12, 2010 9:44 AM EST via mobile reply actions
wow I'm also speechless.
I’ve been sitting on here saying keep Ray keep Ray, that it’d only ruin the chemistry left from that championship team in 08. but man, if this is true and possible, it would change the whole celtics season. mannnnn
by WikedCeltsFan7 on Feb 12, 2010 9:44 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I heard about this trade before
I love this trade if it happens. I heard about this a month ago from a friend who works in the front office and he thought it was just a side talk between the two GM’s. I guess now they are seriously considering it.
The other flip note to this if it happens is Washington buying out Ray’s contract; which wouldnt’ mean that he’d come back to the Celtics after 60 days.
I would say this trade makes sense for both teams and this one is more of a serious nature then the other rumors going around
Wow just wow.
100% of yes answers even if there are little participation says all.
Then If Ray resign and sign here we end up with
Rondo My Little Sister
Ray Daniels
Pierce Caron
KG Jamison
Perk Sheed
LOL!!!!!!
Getting Ray back would be gravy...
and possible also since they are not going anywhere this year and should allow him another chance to get a ring.
Who else to do it better with than………us!
IF they can get Ray back in a buyout & sign deal
then I’m totally for this trade.
If not – it doesn’t work from a basketball sense.
I wish Jamison was a little younger.
Make it happen
Just hand us the Atlantic Division trophy, the Eastern Conference Banner, and the 2010 NFPA Championship banner
Wow, bold, bold move.
I don’t want to trade Ray but you can’t pass on this trade…
If Danny makes this deal I think he then trades Baby to Charlotte for DJ.
Then you would have a starting five of Rondo/Butler/Pierce/KG/Perk
And a bench of Augustin/House or Tony/Marquis/Jamison/Sheed… pretty sick.
Let’s hope this deal gets done!
Best trade yet
Great trade idea!!!! Butler would be the perfect Ray replacement—- PLease danny, DO it
by acie earl fanclub on Feb 12, 2010 9:47 AM EST reply actions
He'll do...
and I love this trade. But perfect Ray replacement? Not even close. This deal is about Jamison. We need an athletic big guy who can rebound, because KG can’t for the forseeable future. Butler is a nice bonus, but he doesn’t balance our offence like Ray does. In that sense Miller would be a better option. I do like the fact that Caron has decent athleticism and size and hence could help Pierce manage Lebron defensively though. Hmmm, Miller or Butler. Guess I’d still take Butler as the better athlete and more consistent all around performer over the past couple of years.
by Celticsbloke on Feb 12, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Miller far better shooter than Butler, and equivalent rebounder
Good comment, they are the same age – I’d like that variation better! miller’s FG% this season is phenomenal
by nba is the worst on Feb 12, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah - Miller's got a string pulling the ball through the hoop this year.
He’s always been a good shooter. But .714 TS% ???? Unreal this year.
Postphoning the Inevitable
This deal doesn’t make the Celtics that much younger. Butler is 30, Jameson is 33.
But yes, it makes us better for the next two years, so go for it.
I’d be exploring the possibility of including Perkins in the deal if Washington agrees to include Brendan Haywood.
Yes, it would delay our rebuilding
But it does extend our window and chance of a title for a few more years while we still have KG and Pierce.
That works for me
Re: Haywood/Perk swap.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
jamison is 33 and has 3 years 11 per (and i believe it escalates) left on his deal. hes the absolute last thing the celtics need.
Jacking Up the Price
I wonder if the Wizards floated this rumor to extract a little more for Jamison from the Cavs, who have been after Antawn for quite awhile.
Brick is (consistently) the man
It just seems so improbable as to strain credulity – for the Wizards, though, not the Celts, birdstache
by nba is the worst on Feb 12, 2010 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah my first thought was wow, that would be good. Second, that’s a lot of money for Wyc to take on down the road (although I think Pierce is opting out and signing a more team-friendly deal—still a lot of dough). Third, maybe Danny is just messing with Cleveland.
Tuff Juice
Bye Bye Scali-wags. Hello Ray Ray buy out and return on a vet minimum contract.
Good times. Jamison’s contract is ugly, but he should be serviceable and we’re basically all in until KG expires anyways. ..
So the team would look like this?
Rondo/?
Butler/House
Perkins/Wallace
Pierce/Daniels
KG/Jamison
Shelden, Walker & Tony Allen
Based on the above lineup, I do not think Danny will stop after this trade. He will likely move Tony Allen or BBD for Augustin. BBD or Allen becomes more expendable with Jamison on board, no? If not, still have the problem of a back-up point guard. Thoughts please.
One more thing….this certainly would not be a minor tweak, as Danny recently put it. Goes to show we cannot take what he says as face value.
Also, where would BBD play in this line-up? Unless Sheed is going to sit more (doubt it), I think he is gone as a trade chip for a back up point guard. If that happens along with the Wizards trade, we have a great team.
No, to be fair, Danny said it 'could' only be a minor tweak
which if anything implied it could possibly be major.
(But I still wouldn’t take what he says at face value!)
two things
Now that he’s healthy, Daniels is already clearly our backup ‘point’ (although he’s a point-forward) on offense. He and Eddie switch on defense if necessary. So there’s no real problem there.
The real problem is in the starting 5 above.
At SG – Butler is an athletic scorer, but he has no 3-pt shot (career 31% shooter and only shooting 26% this year).
That means that if he’s in the starting 5, Pierce would (like in this most recent NO game) be the only 3PT shooter. That means defenses would only play tight man on him on the perimeter and otherwise just sag into the paint daring anybody to try to slash their way to the hoop.
Not a good lineup. We’d have to change something else (like have Rondo suddenly develop a 3PT shot) in order to make that starting lineup effective.
Not if you start Jamison and bring KG off the bench
Jamison can shoot threes…
Or get Miller instead of Butler, (since this won’t happen in a million years anyway)
by nba is the worst on Feb 12, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Getting Miller would be ideal between those two options.
Like with Sheed, while its good for him to take the occassional 3 to keep defenses on their toes, our offense is going to be more effective with Jamison working in the paint.
True
I’m glad that someone else notices that when Ray doesn’t play a game, the other team just clogs the lane and there is no movement on offense.
I would do this deal, but this team really does need a perimeter threat, preferably one that doesn’t dominate the ball, worry about touches, is clutch and a good locker room guy. Too bad there aren’t any of those around.
by papa shuttlesworth on Feb 12, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
YES!!!
When whatever machination of Ray for Caron goes through you all have to tell me I am a genius. I have been calling this for over a year I think.
YES!!!!
we have our Lebron/Joe Johnson/Vince stopper...
…or at least slower downer anyways.
I simply don’t understand how anyone could not want this to happen, cap trouble be damned. Knock on wood but, if this trade does go down, Banner 18 is practically begging for us to bring it home.
by OhioCelticsFan on Feb 12, 2010 10:00 AM EST reply actions
Start Jamison and have KG become the most feared 6th man ever… lol.
by OhioCelticsFan on Feb 12, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
That is a great idea and one that Danny and Doc may be contemplating. KG will be much more effective at this point coming off the bench. He will be more rested. Can you imagine the match up problems for the other team if KG plays on the second team. The second team would look like:
KG
Daniels
Sheed
House/Tony Allen
back up point guard
Send him to Charlotte for Augustine.
by OhioCelticsFan on Feb 12, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
Give up a big for a bench PG?
Not something I would do. A bench PF/C is generally more valuable than a bench PG. The reason is that you need fouls to give with your bigs. And in the playoffs, Rondo’s going to play 40+ minutes – reducing further the value of a bench PG.
Plus Daniels is already very effective at point running our second team. So there isn’t a lot of need there.
Already adding a big
If we did the WAS trade, we are already adding a big in Jamison. So we are exchanging Jamison for BBD in the rotation.
We do need another backup PG for days when Rondo sprains his ankle (happens way too much with his low tops) or when he gets into foul trouble trying to poke balls out). Shelden Williams already gets no minutes. Do we need both BBD and Shelden both not sniffing the court?
Keep in mind the proposed trade has us giving up more guys than we get. We can always pick up vets who get bought out.
by guava_wrench on Feb 12, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Well, just counting bodies (not talent)
the proposed trade gives away one big (Scal) for two (Jamison & Butler) – but Butler is more of an SF, not a C/PF – so that’s really a net wash.
So it would still leave you down a C/PF if you trade BBD for a bench PG.
Again it comes back to value – we don’t gain that much from adding an Augustine to the bench. Having an extra big is very valuable especially in the playoffs where fouls become such a huge deciding factor in games.
rofl
sorry, that comment made me laugh.
by TomHamilton30 on Feb 12, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Wojnarowski is putting up trade "ideas" every day hoping one will actually stick...
…don`t get too excited…
Agree
The ULTIMATE "believe it when it’s completed’ trade rumor so far…
by nba is the worst on Feb 12, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
this would be amazing.
Butler is the most underrated player in the NBA. He’s not having an amazing year, but that will pick up no doubt. Imagine if we had that BBD for Augustine trade along with this?
Only The Strong Survive
you honestly think this trade will happen?
in this economy?
hmmmm….if so, it would be fabulous for the celts and a no brainer, assuming someone is willing to bankroll the fattest team in the NBA. but yes, this would be an absolute no brainer.
which leads me to speculate…
by lakersbluedevil on Feb 12, 2010 10:09 AM EST reply actions
I'll believe it when I see it
At least this got my hopes up a bit. I really hope this deal gets done.
Also, if it did, I doubt Ray would come back for the vet minimum…
My Only Concern Would Be.....
Long term implications in terms of the cap. If this doesn’t work….hello again pre KG era. The other issue would lack of practice time ahead. This would as much be a trade for next year as it would be to save this season.
I will say however…whether this happens or not…never underestimate Danny.
Also....
I wouldn’t count on a labor lockout.
I admit I don' know the NBA's current situation that would make it so dire...
But as far as I’m concerned, if it can happen in the NFL, if there’s actual talks of a labor lockout happening in the NBA, “Good business sense” may not prevent it.
also, i feel bad for the wizard fans
can you imagine their roster if they lose butler and jamison for those scalliwags??? I love RAy, but he is a 34 percent 3pt shooting 34/35 year old and we know what those other two are.
the wizards would have no marquee player left with arenas gone….their might be riots at their games. honestly, not sure how they can do this with almost half the season left. they won’t win another game
by lakersbluedevil on Feb 12, 2010 10:12 AM EST reply actions
Ray...
Watch Ray go crazy. He’ll be the number one option for the first time in 3 years. Maybe he’ll score 26 a night again?
by bballdog384 on Feb 12, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Good for Ray
A trade like this would actually be good for Ray. I think we underestimate what he can do because he is not featured in our offense. He would average a lot more points in WAS.
I don’t believe that WAS would be interesting in releasing Ray. They still have season ticket holders to please and Ray has a lot to offer.
by guava_wrench on Feb 12, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
it works too
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ykjjag4
"My name is Daniel Murphy and I bat 3rd."
and it adds 2 whole wins to our Hollinger projections!
:)
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
from a salary sense, yeah
But from a basketball sense, it only works if we somehow get Ray back in a buyout & sign OR we pickup some other 3Pt threat to put into the starting lineup. Otherwise we would be too easy to defend. We’d be out of the playoffs in 3 games.
isn’t it usually the 1million vet minimum?
by jaimsitecom on Feb 12, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
believe
it when i see it…..like every other rumor, wait until next thursday late afternoon to find out what really happens.
A Celtics fan living in the DC area
I detest the Wizards. It kills me that I have to go to the Verizon Center to see the Celtics (or any other team) when they’re in town.
That being said, I’ve always loved Butler’s game. He’s a gamer. I’ve seen the Wizards stinking up the joint before while Butler refused to say die. He has a swagger.
Jamison is not captain defense. But he is a great lockerroom guy. Wholly committed. He is the heart of the Wizards.
All-in for the next two years? Roll the dice, Danny. (If this rumor is even true)
(And then get a backup pg … any backup pg).
co-signed
Big fan of Bulter and Jamison. Butler is having a down year, but he’s nails. Neither is good enough to build around, but both would be ideal support-stars (think Gasol/Odom level)
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
FALSE HOPE...
Seriously, the Wizards simply have to have better offers than this one…
by nba is the worst on Feb 12, 2010 10:33 AM EST reply actions
Not if
The Wizards have finally realized that they are not going to win with what they have now. Knowing that they are getting rid of that much salary, this would be their chance to start all over and really try and throw some money around this off season.
by BigDanz2000 on Feb 12, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Doubt it
McGrady’s and Ilgauskus’s expirings are all that’s out there. If the end result is losing Jamison and Butler for someone else, would you choose either of those guys over Ray as that someone else? Didn’t think so.
This could be Grunfeld’s rumor: a way of prying Hickson from the Cavs’ hands. If the Cavs give him up, the Cs offer looks not nearly as good.
Important point
Ray is an expiring contract who can actually play and contribute a lot. If a team wants to shed contracts, he is a good option.
I seem to remember WAS re-signing Jamison to appease Arenas. That sure did backfire.
by guava_wrench on Feb 12, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Not only his play
which is important of course. But also the fact that as a person, he is completely the opposite of the jackasses they have on their squad now.
The best thing out of this trade is
we keep Jamison away from the Cavs! Which I think would definitely put Cleveland over the top.
by Las Vegas Asian on Feb 12, 2010 10:33 AM EST reply actions
That would be a hell of a trade! We would be the favorties this year and probably beyond. Yes, we would have to swallow a lot of money, but this is what it’s all about: Spend money to win a ring!
Love Butler
I’ve never been a huge Jamison fan, but I love Caron Butler.
Somebody says this doesn’t help get us younger, but 33 is still younger than Ray and Caron still has at least another three years of quality ball left in him.
Still, this trade is too good to be true. Then again so was the KG trade.
The KG trade was great but not too good to be true. It hurt to give up Jefferson at the time. This on the other hand would be a completely painless transaction.
Oh for the love of god...
would somebody please think of Scal’s mother ;-P
by Celticsbloke on Feb 12, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
This is fine and dandy and all but.......
When is Danny gonna get us a backup Point Guard???
The deal is alright, but i dont understand, with all of the current injuries on this team, why we would be trading a healthy all-star caliber expiring deal player, for two injury prone non-expiring deal players????
I am a fan of Antawn Jamison and i like caron butler but this deal makes us even thinner, extra thin in the backcourt. Giving up Ray and JR for two forwards, we will have a log jam at the forward spots…..we still dont have a backup point guard. and in this deal we are trading both of the SG’s on the team.
Cs would have 2 open roster spots
Which you can bet will be not remain open. There’s Lue, and whatever additional deal they could swing.
always the point guard (sigh)
We might be getting Jamison and Butler and you’re worried about who’s backing up Rondo? Marquis will do just fine for ten minutes a game.
by Celticsbloke on Feb 12, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Danny can call more than one team
Danny is not limited to only one deal or talking to only one team. Haven’t you seen all the BBD for Augustin articles?
Btw, giving up Giddens has zero effect whatsoever.
by guava_wrench on Feb 12, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Makes sense for Wiz - if they want to blow it all up
If Wash is looking for cap space, the deal makes plenty of sense. And if there’s ANY truth to this rumor – a big if, but still – the motivation for the Wiz has to be to blow it all up. I seriously doubt they’re looking for a trade that makes them better this year. That’s hopeless and they know it. So IF they’re really shopping Jamison and Butler, it must be in order to blow it all up now and see what they can get next summer.
I.e., the argument that it’s too one-sided and makes no sense for Washington is not real. But the rumor might not be real either.
must stop checking for updates
i got work to do but i can’t sty focused.
get this done now so i can get my work done before the weekend.
patience, patience, must be patient.
oooohmmmm
breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out...
someone get me a paper bag.
NO WAY WIZ DO THIS DEAL!!!!
You Boston faces are seriously delusional if you think you can get both Butler and Jamsison for some crummy expiring contracts and nothing else …. Wiz can dump Jamison to Cleveland at any time if they were willing to just take back expirings and plenty of other teams are interested in Butler that he’d bring back cap relief and assets
Dude
You are getting 25 Million off your books if this trade goes down. The same you would be getting everywhere else if you were getting back all expiring deals.
Do you honestly believe the Wizards are trying to win this year?
by BigDanz2000 on Feb 12, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
I DIDN'T SAY THE WIZ ARE GOING TO WIN THIS YEAR, OR NEXT YEAR, OR THE YEAR AFTER THAT, OR ANYTIME SOON
my point is the wiz can do a lot better than just expirings for butler and jamison
What do you think
The Wizards are going to take back then? Their is only one reason why the Wiz do this, for expiring contracts so they can make a play in FA. Come on now.
by BigDanz2000 on Feb 12, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
ok, relax
it is just a rumor for now, no need to get riled up
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
I am calm, cool, and collected Senor Clark
by BigDanz2000 on Feb 12, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Can they do better?
I bet they can’t. Who’s going to deal with them?
Mavs and Cavs
And perhaps the Hawks
by nba is the worst on Feb 12, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
But the Mavs won’t give up more than Dampier and Howard. Is that better than Ray? I don’t see the Hawks doing it cuz they like their core (unless they think Johnson’s not re-signing). If the Cavs throw in Hickson, they will get Jamison. But they have resisted doing that. And the way the are playing, I would continue to resist if I were Ferry.
For the Wiz, I don't think the player quality matters.
They need to shed salary and aim straight for the heart of the lottery.
They would actually be better off buying out Ray’s contract (maybe saving a million or so) and letting him go early – he’d probably agree knowing he could then sign for that same million (i think that’s the vet minimum) with another team after the 30 day waiting period.
That’s how he could, in theory, end up back here.
Whether other players they might get elsewhere would agree to the buyout I don’t know.
Agree
That the Wiz won’t care about player quality. But if they can get Hickson, who is still on his late-first-round rookie contract (i.e., very little money), out of the deal, they’d be foolish not to hold out for it, which is what they’ve done so far, knowing they have (or had) Cleveland over a barrel, i.e., needing to please LeBron.
Ray, I think, would probably be more eager for a buyout than Ilgauskus and McGrady, who will attract very little interest next year. They may not want to throw away a million or so dollars.
Not sure that the Wizards can do much better but they can find comparable deals elsewhere.
By putting Jamison + Butler into separate deals and accepting expiring contracts.
Better would be more in the way of marginal incentives which the Celtics can offer by including future first round picks. Or other teams by including a prospect like Hickson. Either way, it won’t be large difference so long as the Celtics are willing to include draft picks (2010 + 2012) if needed.
Who...
…is out there for them to work single deals on? I can’t think of many contracts in the $10 million range that are expiring and that are on teams willing to deal. Maybe OKC, since they have cap room and could throw some players together for Jamison. But my guess is they want to go younger than Jamison and think they have a shot at Bosh. Maybe not though. (Jamison on OKC is actually a pretty scary thought.)
Love It!!!
This is a monster deal which would make us elite once again. With these 2 plus the rest of our core esp. if Ray is bought out by the Wiz it would almost being like having 2 starting units out there. I would move KG to the 6th man which would bring a whole new meaning to super sub. If we got Ray Ray back as the th man wow we would be unstoppable. Then swing BBD for DJ all I can say is WOW!
Rondo/DJ
Butler/ Ray Ray
Pierce/ Allen
Jamison/ KG
Perk/ Sheed
Our 2nd unit would be superior to a lot of teams 1st unit not to mention saving KG’s knees which would make him more effective for years to come.
DO IT DANNY!
Incredible!
I love Ray Allen, but getting Butler and Jamison for a bunch of expiring contracts with a good chance that Allen would be bought out would be amazing! Please do it!
I said never, never on trading Ray
and I don’t see tis happening.
But if the impossible does happen…..even I will be smiling!
by thirstyboots18 on Feb 12, 2010 11:06 AM EST reply actions
while we're fantasizing
then empty the rest of the bench (tony, eddie, davis and bill walker) for hinrich.
Don't give up picks
I too like Butler and Jamison. This does sound too good to be true. As much as I love Ray, this is probably a good idea. Scal and Giddens, no problem. I wouldn’t give up any picks though. No matter which way we go a. keep/re-sign Ray or trade him for two +30 players we have to get younger and the draft is still best way and Danny has good nose for draft talent.
yes but
we’d be giving up picks in the 25 – 30 range
and you can buy early 2nd rounders for cash, so I don’t see the pain
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
don't burst my bubble!
(but yeah, it seems too good to be true, thus…)
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
Another Perspective
All it takes is for two for their to be a bidding war. Wizards vs Chicago – which wants the salary cap space more. It may be a smoke screen linked to get a deal with another team…
Ray Could Come Back
If Washington can void Arenas’ contract, freeing up the buyout money. But I’m not sure they would buy Ray out just to go deeper into the red this season, as they are already paying at least $15 mil in luxury tax. The trade seems like a no brainer on paper, as I’m sure Wyc is happy to pay a hefty tax to win another 2 titles. I’m a die hard Butler fan who has always reminded me as another Ron Artest who just can’t play a full season. I hope Jamison can settle for 20 minutes a night, although I think he’s too good to be playing less than 30, but I wouldnt bench Perk or KG. That could be a hint that they may want to shut down KG til the end of April.
by I Love Getting Rondo'd on Feb 12, 2010 11:24 AM EST reply actions
Draft Picks
And who doesn’t want to give up late first round picks? Giddens has clearly worked out nicely. They can move Butler & Sheed’s expiring deals next year if they want to get a good draft pick and start over. I think the extra first rounders is the perfect bait to use to lure in some of these big fish,
by I Love Getting Rondo'd on Feb 12, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
arent cavs and wizards rivals?
Why would the wizards trade to the cavs? That would be like us trading to the magic or cavaliers
by farias on Feb 12, 2010 11:28 AM EST via mobile reply actions
The Wizards Suck
The Wizards want to reuild, so they don’t care about giving Cleveland someone who will be gone by the time they are ready to compete. At the same time, they don’t want Cleveland to win and motivate LeBron to not jet to Miami or New York.
by I Love Getting Rondo'd on Feb 12, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
even if the Wiz do this deal
and they buy ray out, we wouldn’t be able to resign him for more than the league minimum, which ain’t going to happen. as far as the bad blood between wiz and cavs, any good GM knows that sort of thing is a very minor consideration at best – first priority is to make the best possible move for YOUR team, and not worry about impact on another team, even if it is a rival. not like that was much of a rivalry in the first place.
Really?
So Ray wouldn’t take a buyout to come back to Boston, which is where his family lives, and have a shot at another championship but stay in a miserable situation in Boston to a make another million or two?
think about what he'd have to give up in the buyout
of course it depends on the buyout negotiations, but i just don’t see him giving up as much as 7 or 8 mil to do it. and i don’t blame him.
I doubt he'd have to get up that much
Haven’t the Celtics already paid about $10-12 million of the $19?
Agreed — Ray would only have to give up a million or so for a buyout … which he will definitely do to have another crack at a Championship
yeah - it would make perfect sense for both Ray and the Wizards
Lets say Ray had 7 M left on his contract.
They buy him out for 6 – thus saving 1M.
He then takes a 30 day vacation and then signs with the C’s for the league vet minimum (about 1 M, I think). He ends up getting exactly the same amount of money.
The Wiz would proceed forward from that point to tank the season and get into the lottery with a ton of cap room.
Or he's a little peeved...
…and signs with the Cavs!
Ugh. That would suck.
Probably not going to happen, but would truly suck.
PS this is a RUMOR!!!!!
deals like this are rare for a reason.
jump on it danny
this would be a major shot in the arm. in sports it’s all about going for it now. this team doesn’t have another year in it as currently constituted and pierce and KG both need time to heal. we need some fresh blood and this would be it. Add a pg and we’re on our way. I love ray but if danny could do this then go for it.jamison is exactky what we need, plus we keep the cavs from getting him.
Danny is very easy to read....he thinks BIG!
Until this trades actually happens…it`s mere speculation.
If it does happen…Danny has no intention of bringing Ray back ever
thanks, danny, for at least giving us something to take our minds off the crummy play we have been seeing lately. butler is a tough cookie, a gamer. yes, he does not shoot the 3 like ray, but he plays tough defense and remember that shot he made from the deep corner at the end of the last c’s wiz game. jamison can bang and come in from the weakside, someting we have not seen lately. his defense is not great, but then big cat davis is no whirling dervish at d either as the primary backup 4. go for it.
if they could do this, then flip SHEED for DJ, it would be sweet, not in love with the money, but the on the court benefits are undeniable. losing sheeds deal maked jamisons way way easier to live with.
No no no.
Adding Jamison makes Sheed more efffective – he would focus on being the backup C where he is most effective. Jamison would take away Sheed’s current minutes at PF. Sheed would pickup the minutes at C that BBD & Scal have provided.
Exactly
Sheed would then be able to guard bigger slower centers and let Jamison defend the quicker power forwards.
That should help improve Rasheeds defense that many think is a problem.
Also having the bench duo of Jamison and Sheed take the minutes of Baby and Scal I think is a big time upgrade and win – win situation also..
I'd love this if it's true...
I get the feeling that this a smokescreen that Danny is putting out there in the attempt to boost other GM’s mindsets of Ray’s worth…Danny was just saying the other day that we value Ray much more than other teams do, so it would make sense if he were attempting to boost Ray’s trade value.
However, if this is true, I’d do this without thinking twice about it! Crazy!
by screwedupmaniac on Feb 12, 2010 12:08 PM EST reply actions
Ric Bucher just on ESPN...
He just said that Boston said no to this trade, as they would be taking back too much money…but Wyc is always saying he’ll dig deep to win a championship, so it’s tough to tell what’s going on.
by screwedupmaniac on Feb 12, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
First denial is out!
http://twitter.com/MrMichaelLee
Talked to two league sources who shot down BOS-WAS rumor. One said teams never had conversations about Allen for Jamsion/Butler swap.
Heard the deal that has the most traction is Caron/DeShawn to DAL for Josh Howard/James Singleton. Fun times ’til Feb. 18.
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
Anyone hear of a deal for Troy Murphey?
I know we have an in with the Pacers (see Marquis deal.)
so excited
who can tell me the rumor is not just a rumor
read the comments right above yours
That’s a good place to start :-)
by screwedupmaniac on Feb 12, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Separating Fact from Rumor
This will occur at 3:00 pm on Thursday, February 19.
Advantage
If the Wiz have decided to blow it up, the Celitcs at this point are their only trading partner: No one else—Mavs, Cavs, etc.—can or is willing to take both of those contracts off their hands. Some want one but no one wants both. If they wait till summer, they’ll find no suitors.
by Ersatz on Feb 12, 2010 12:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This can't be real
If it is…DA should absolutely pull the trigger. If it goes down, you can basically turn PP into the 2, after all he’s shooting better from behind the arc than almost everyone in the league anyway, and you make Butler the slasher. Jamison coming off the bench would be ridiculous.
And I agree with whoever suggested we do the Baby/Augustin deal in addition to this move. It would look brilliant.
1. Rondo
2. Butler
3. Pierce
4. Garnett
5. Perkins
Backups
1. Augustin
2. House/TA
3. Daniels/Walker
4. Jamison/Williams
5. Wallace’s dead body
My GOD, this has to happen
P2 is the man.
i doubt pp could play at 2 any more
hes just not quick enough now.
if ainge pulls the trigger on this one, he better have other transactions to kick in right after.
butler isnt a terrific 3 p shooter, and jamison is 33 yr old. do we need another 33 yr old all star level player to sit on the bench along with sheed?
by friedgreentomatoes on Feb 12, 2010 1:11 PM EST reply actions
It's the silly season...
Love it!!! Rumors come out, rumors quickly get shot down. Everyone lies!! More than likely after 3pm next thursday Po’s binky will still be on our roster.
this move produces two more titles imho we can only hope
it makes sense that Wash doesn’t want to trade with Cle…very bad blood there. the Wash and Celtics franchises have been friendly for decades
I see that the rumors are being shot down…its a shame
I think this whole thing hinges on whether Cleveland throws in Hickson
If Cleveland throws in Hickson, then their return on Jamison is better than what we are offering in expirings only (unless we sweeten it with pick(s)). I don’t think they’ll have that hard a time finding a taker for Butler in a separate deal, as he’s 30 and expires next year (even easier if they attach him to Haywood).
So if Cleveland caves and sends them Hickson they probably take that. If not, it’s just our expirings vs Cleveland’s expiring. At that point, it’s anybody’s guess as to which direction they go.
This is gonna be a wild six days.
it's a home run for the C's, but...
i don’t see the wiz doing this deal. if they’re just looking for a salary dump, there are a number of deals that will give them that cap relief, and of all of them this is perhaps the only one that DOESN"T provide the Wiz with some young talent.
Fantasy league thinking
The fact that 93% of those voting would maket he trade should tell you it will never get done. Fantasy league thinking!
by Celtsfansince55 on Feb 12, 2010 5:50 PM EST reply actions
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