Is That It?
by Jeff Clark on Feb 17, 2010 11:32 PM EST
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintI've been ruminating on this Nate Robinson deal all day and I think I've finally put a finger on my feelings about it. It isn't so much that I don't like the deal itself. In fact, I'm pretty much ambivalent about it. Nate will give us instant offense off the bench. We are giving up a guy that, ...gave us instant offense off the bench. Maybe he's an upgrade from House, maybe not. Maybe he's a better fit in our offense, or maybe he's a lateral move. I don't know and only time will tell.
What gives me a sinking feeling is the prevailing buzz indicating that this is all there is to the trade deadline for us. Don't get me wrong. I said weeks ago that if we couldn't find a clear upgrade for this season and the future, we shouldn't trade Ray Allen. I'm still behind that. So if Danny couldn't find a deal that meet that criteria, I can't fault him for standing pat on the core of our team. I don't support making a trade just for the sake of doing something. Furthermore, I still believe that we can pull together, get healthy, and seriously make a push for the title. Maybe.
However, I have to admit that I let myself dream a little. A few weeks ago I couldn't imagine a deal that I could justify sending Ray Allen out of town for. In the last week or so, I've read about or come up with half a dozen or so ideas or rumors that I'd be giddy about. My feelings for Ray didn't change in that timeframe. It was just that my reading of the trade market shifted a bit. I heard about guys on the trade block that under normal circumstances would never be. I underestimated how many teams would be so motivated to slash money at any cost.
A few days ago, a legitimate rumor had the Celtics talking to the Wizards about Butler and Jamison for Ray Allen. Now Butler is a Maverick and Jamison is a Cav and there's a chance that they could be playing against each other in the Finals this year while the Celtics are home wondering what to do with a roster that is another year older.
Dallas got Butler for nothing. Cleveland got Jamison for nothing. We have expiring contracts. We are willing to take on salary. We don't have a lot of other assets, but neither did the Mavs or Cavs and they got it done. What gives?
It wasn't just the Wizards great sell-off either. If you believe the rumors, Iggy was out there. Martin was out there. We all know that Stoudamire is still out there. These names are enough to excite any fan about the possibilities. But unless something dramatic and unexpected happens tomorrow, we're not getting any of those guys. We probably aren't getting any of the 2nd tier guys we heard about either (Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas, etc.)
Instead we are getting Nate Robinson. A guy that I don't even like. I respect his game, and I suppose I'll learn to like him and of course I'll root for him. But this routine of rooting for guys I don't like is getting kind of old for me personally. I talked myself in to rooting for Marbury. I talked myself into rooting for Sheed. I'll talk myself into rooting for Nate too. Winning makes it all alright, but I tell ya, I sure hope they win.
I hope that this is coming across as more of a lament and not a whine festival, but I wouldn't argue with you if you called me on my sour grapes. It is my own fault really. I let my expectations get sky high and when reality didn't match up, I feel let down.
So Jamison and Butler are not walking through that door. There will be likely not be any blockbuster deals tomorrow. We are back to hoping that KG's knee can hold up and that the team will not look quite so old and out of sync in the next few months. Oh yeah, and we'll be back to watching the waiver wire to see if the next PJ Brown will pop up out of nowhere (and hope it isn't the next Mikki Moore). Maybe Nate will give us a spark of energy and that will be enough of a nudge to get us rolling in the right direction. Maybe we'll regain our mojo and start knocking teams out in the 3rd quarter (instead of morphing into a welcome mat).
Maybe we'll be back in the Finals and Ray Allen will hit the game winning shot to bring us Banner 18 and we'll all look back on this day and laugh. Maybe.
Then again, there's still time. Ainge still has till 3:00 PM to get someone to bite on something big. Dare I get my hopes up again? How about Ray and Glen Davis for Stoudamire and JRich? No? Oh well.
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I am with you 100 percent Jeff
While I like Robinson coming here, he does nothing to solve the woes of the starting 5. Hopefully Danny will surprise us all, but I am not expecting anything.
How about his Trade
Ray, BBD && Tony Allen to the Bulls for Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas & Luol Deng.
by #1lakerhater on Feb 18, 2010 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
I agree also....
As you said, the Mavs and the Cavs didn’t really even ‘need’ to do any trades…Most notably Cleveland…But somehow they managed to get a great trade that makes them even harder to beat….
I find this annoying, because the Celtics have been struggling and a trade, for a star player, would have almost certainly made things better for us! But with only a few hours until the deadline, Ainge has come up short…
Should our inactivity to secure something by the trade deadline be a reflection on Danny Ainge?? I think if i were Wyc, I would be looking closely at his performance….He may be the reason we missed out on a lot of good trades….
I don't think so
Danny would not take a deal that would not make sense for us, and I am sure wyc knew of our options. And u don’t know that we don’t have another deal in the works, be it a scal/Williams/1st rounder for Ty Thomas or Allen for …
Still after all this if Ray goes I sure hope he gets bought out just like big z and we get Ray and powe back in green for the stretch run
by Warrior Spirit on Feb 18, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
The wizards didn't want to deal butler to us and we didn't want Jamison's contract.
Why is that a shortcoming of Danny Ainge?
I don't think thats true
I do think the Wiz wanted to unload Stevenson though…maybe Ainge thought twice about that
It seems more like 80% of the fanbase want this team to fail just so they can have something to complain about
whether they want to admit it or not
by post-it note on Feb 18, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think that's quite fair.
Yes, there are some ppl who are negative no matter what. But I think a lot of fans are genuinely concerned about the present state and the very new future of this team. I love Ray, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. But if there’s a legitimate opportunity to use his expiring contract to get younger, we should take it.
I was really young (just a baby) when the original Big Three era limped to an end, but from my father’s and grandfather’s accounts it was difficult to go through. Forgive me if I don’t want personal loyalties to get in the way of capitalizing on opportunities – I want this team to stay relevant, to keep competing for championships, to be able to put a solid team around Rondo.
If you think KG is struggling right now, imagine what he’s going to look like 2 1/2 yrs from now when he’s making $21m… If you don’t think that’s a legit concern, than I don’t know what is.
Rondooooooo
Well written and expresses the thoughts of many on this board. Eddie is a better chemistry guy than Nate and right now, based on what we have read recently, the chemistry of the team is off. This certainly cannot help and I have to think that many of the C’s are scratching their heads like we are over this trade. It is a business but I am sure they are not thrilled to lose Eddie. I also think there will be no trades. If so, Doc needs to use this to his advantage, gather the troops tonight before tip-off in LA and tell them that this is the team that they are going to war with, management has 100% faith in this team as constructed, and to go out and win the championship. Perhaps we will see the C’s that were dominant the first couple of months of the season, now that the cloud of the trade deadline is about to pass. A win in LA tonight will do wonders for the psyche of this team, Kobe or no Kobe.
I guess I'm in the other 20%
I share the frustrations with the current team, but I had very low expectations of the trade deadline.
Very few of the proposed deals looked like they really made us better when the rubber hit the road - i.e once you started contemplating just who would be on the floor with whom and how many minutes each would get. Too many of the proposed trades were for “oooh exciting player X!” but most of the time Player X was just going to spend time on our 2nd unit if they came here and meanwhile there would be a gapping hole in the starting 5 where Ray’s body used to be. And that would be fine if you are only working on the future – but none of the proposed deals made us that much better for the future without ridiculous contract baggage.
And I’m sure that Danny knows all that too well.
So I am not surprised.
There is just no way we will be making big changes until KG comes off the books.
Pray for health.
Nate
I think Nate will bring some MUCH needed energy to this team, and to the crowd-they have been pretty awful as far as making the Garden the “Jungle”. I do agree that the Cavs and Mavs made out the best, and unfortunately there is nothing we can do about that. What has me kind of baffled is that I am getting this vibe from people that the Celts are done now because they didn’t sign “him”. These guys are still a very good team and I think mature enough to get their shit together. Granted, if injuries happen, then we’re screwed, but c’mon-we still have a damn good team that has hardly played together as a unit due to injuries.
JB
by KobeWearsAPurpleThong on Feb 17, 2010 11:48 PM EST reply actions
tired
I’m tired of this lame excuse that the team hardly played together because of injuries. The starting five, which is the main source of problems, is playing the 3rd season together.
The bench, which really didn’t play together, is fantastic.
I agree
…that the bench now is playing great. But just 2 weeks ago, a lot of us wanted to hang Sheed by his you-know-whats for being such a lazy, fat, useless bum. And let’s face it, when you talk about the “bench”, half of what you’re talking about is Sheed. If his turnaround is real and sticks, all’s well with the bench. If he goes back to Bad Sheed, we’re toast.
I never understood the harsh critics against Sheed. He’s 35 and he’s averaging more than 10 pts and 4 rebounds. Yes he’s slow now but he still does what he can in defense. What did the people expect from him? A 20-10 season? He even attempts way less 3s now.
Besides we didn’t mention Tony Allen. As much as I hate his stupid turnovers and low iq play I must admit that he puts together some quality minutes this season.
Most of you guys are a lot younger than I am....
…but all I hear in my head is that awful song by Peggy Lee, “Is That All There Is?”
What I`m hearing is..."Send in the Clowns"
It`s hard to believe that this is it.
There are several hours to go…Danny is a river-boat gambler {it`s in his DNA}…plus, it would be impossible for DA to “sell it” to Celtic fans that Nate is all we need to compete {not after these past 23 games}.
Bingo.
Danny sat on his rear and the let the other contenders get what they wanted . IMO, he is throwing away all the goodwill he garnered with the KG trade.
Don't give up
Philly and Sac could be holding out until the last second to see if they can get anything better than Ray. If one/both teams doesn’t and is willing to settle, Martin or Iggy could end up in green. Still some hope.
by bleedgreen34 on Feb 17, 2010 11:49 PM EST via mobile reply actions
SO bummed that we didn't get Butler...
I’m holding out hope that Danny’s figured out some insane plan that none of us have even imagined. I know, I’’m reaching…
i am sorry i didn't read the posts but c'mon we are NOT WILLING TO TAKE ON SALARY
how much in denial do you want to be?
Nate will be a huge upgrade. You will be shocked, Jeff and Steve and all. But wed have made a big splash if we wanted to upgrade. Period
We have 15 hours to prove you wrong
Do not underestimate the chaos that is the hours before the deadline!!!
I think you're right
I just don’t think Ainge is done. A lot of options are off the table, and just maybe somebody with a good youngish player will start salivating over Ray’s salary in the final hours. Especially with TMac off the table.
Yep, the wallet is shut
I don’t think this really falls on Danny as much as it does Wyc. There’s been all this crying about how teams are bleeding money. I think if ownership was willing to take on even a year or two of bad contract we’d have made a bigger trade. Obviously there is a little time left, but it doesn’t sound promising at this point. I’d really love to know what the plan is going forward because I don’t see one aside from “winging it” or biding time before a lockout.
Here's the plan
- Don’t do major surgery if the team still has a shot.
- Don’t take on additional salary obligations you don’t need to take on.
- Do keep expirings to bring down your own salary load, since we know the cap’s going nowhere but down, and it almost certainly also harden quite a bit.
- Tweak what you can when you can.
- Trust that your players will get it together. That’s the key really. These guys put their money down and charted a course 2 years ago. They’re going to stick to that course until such time as they are either forced to do otherwise, or the course comes to its natural end.
Sounds like a sound plan to me.
Yup, that sounds about right.
It gambles everything this year on health, but long term, it makes fewer gambles financially – which ultimately might help on the court.
Seems like the new plan is to try to hold it together until the lock out.
really wish the would’ve decided to shut the wallet before signing Sheed for 2 yrs, with a PO on the 3rd yr….
Rondooooooo
Sheed may... MAY... be turning it around now
It’s been said that’s how he operates… carefree pre-All-Star-break, then turns it on, especially in the playoffs. So far so good… crossing fingers that it keeps up.
Who has said that?
I heard that he seems to play better IN the playoffs, but not after all-star break!
Actually, Sheed himself said it
Paraphrasing: He said that lots of guys try to show their stuff before the AS break and the trade deadline, but that after the AS game is when it gets serious and hard, and that’s the time of the year he likes.
Plus, of course… we’ve actually SEEN it in the last 2 games. So… hope abides.
But Sheed can’t win the title for us. The real issue now is our starting 4: KG, Perk, Paul and Ray. Each has had his share of problems, especially lately. If they get their act together, we win. If not, it’s effectively impossible.
Blakely just said it a few nights ago on CSN
He used to cover Detroit before coming here.
‘Said Sheed’s classic pattern is to ramp it up after the break.
Still like him better on the second string – he rules there. But he’s not a KG replacement on the starters anymore. Unfortunately, right now neither is KG. We need KG to get healthy or we are not going anywhere.
Just wanted to register
that I’m honored to merit a mention in here somehow, wahz.
Hope you’re doing well and that you’re right about Nate being an upgrade.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Feb 18, 2010 2:49 AM EST up reply actions
Hey Steve hope you are well.Nate is MUCH better than many of the folks here think, although I should point out the poll shows the silent majority like the trade
and there is nothing wrong with his attitude at all. If at timnes you have a Nate, Ray, PP, Sheed, KG lineup, you will have a great scorer at the point something we just don’t have now. Rondo can be kept fresher. The Nate, Quisy, TA, Baby, Sheed lineup will be a solid bench.
Its up to the starters. the bench is now a huge upgrade over the playoff bench from last year. But the real world problem is our key opponents are much better
There's a reason we don't have anybody other teams want - they were all traded to Minnesota 2 years ago
….for KG. Everyone knew the consequences. All Ainge has to work with now are aging players, bloated contracts, salary cap limitations, and draft picks that are future low second rounders at best. Not really enticing to trade partners.
Yes, this is it.
This team will be as good as we see the Celtics in the ‘New Big 3’ era (3 years).
People The celtics will not win this year!
I’m the biggest Celtic’s fan ever! but I heard a analyst make a comment that opened my mind! He said “The entire Celtic’s roster could be 110%, but if KG is not dominant, they will not win” That leads me to my next quote “Old people don’t get healthy, they die” Quote Sir Charles Barkley. Danny is in rebuild mode, he does not want the heat of trading Allen, so he will just wait for early playoff exit by the Celtics, and start rebuilding. I really hope KG buy some crazy healing tea and proves me wrong but, i don’t think there is such a thing.
Danny has impressed me, he did not make dumb trades, to try the rebuild on the fly! every dynasty needs a trip to the lottery.
and older people have less value
for danny to wait until the season is over to trade any of these guys does not make sense to me. they will be even older at the end of the season and god forbid, if they get hurt, now no one wants them, no one wants them now. i just don’t see how waiting is going to produce anything but even less value. jeff clark says “what gives” that we couldnt pull in butler or jameson,
one of the most probable scenarios, our players already have no value, the big ones are too old. i also keep hearing rest kg, he’s still hurt, then why was he playing in the all star game if he is such bad shape?
There's not even much left to argue about.
Our $20M franchise power-forward can no longer jump.
After that realization, we’re just quibbling about irrelevant details.
maybe you get amare tomorrow?
cavs fan in NH here. the point about the celts having expiring contracts… ie chips… to deal is on target. to come away with nate robinson would be weak. (plus eddie house is a true stalwart to give away.)
ainge pulled off a nice set of deals to get that championship… but he/we all knew it was probably a one shot deal given the ages of the big 3. he took a shot that KG could come back and the team could compete this year. but it’s not happening and it’s time to blow it up.
now… does ainge have the stones to renounce KG, Pierce, Allen and get cap space to go to work? (no one will trade for them.) unfortunately if he doesn’t the celts will be a #8 seed for the foreseeable future.
i wouldnt be surprised to see the celts figure out a way to get amare in town (by taking on j-rich).
i could get ugly fast here.
It already is ugly
Cs have played like a lotto team since after the Christmas game.
Like I said above, I don’t think it’s about Ainge (or his stones) so much at this point. The deals we’ve been hearing require the Cs to take back salary on at least one bad contract (Dalembert, Nocioni etc.). I think the owners just don’t want to do it. I guess it’s their money and all that, and Wyc has said they will pay for a championship contender—which I don’t think any trade we’ve heard about is really going to make them a contender in any season except for an outside chance THIS season. I can’t blame him for that, but going forward, it looks like they are content to just let the fire burn out, sweep the ashes aside and start over then.
I hate Danny Ainge for trading House for the Husky (Robinson).
I hate Danny Ainge for letting Caron Butler get away.
I hate Danny Ainge for trading away Al Jefferson just to get an aging KG. Told you so. Could use Big Al right about now.
I hate Danny Ainge for …… ______________.
Sorry, since I didn’t see anything posted, thought I’d pinch-hit for Po.
KG Acquisition Hate... No way!
C’mon can’t doubt picking up KG at the time, Banner 17 has to mean something! Who says Minnesota isn’t willing to part with their components in the coming years. They don’t really have a core. So much for Rubio playing in Minne right?
Yeah, when i think of bad times in my life as a sports fan, June 2008 is right up there.
(rolls eyes)
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Feb 18, 2010 2:52 AM EST up reply actions
Game 4 still lives on my DVR
…and will until it dies.
Steve W...........
…………….for those unfamiliar with Master Po, he is a documented Ainge hater. A repeat offender you might say, who rarely misses an opportunity to take a shot at DA.
My poor attempt at sarcasm was intended because at the time of my post, I hadn’t seen any hate mail from Po. I therefore took the opportunity to “pinch-hit” for him and not miss an opportunity to throw a dart at our GM.
Unfortunately, few Celtic-bloggers suspected me of duplicity.
Unfortunately as well in Po’s eyes, I may be counted among those Celtic fans who believe that DA is doing his best for his employers and for the Boston Celtics.
There are so many complex issues, both short term and long, that revolve around any trade issue. We fans only know the surface and are quick to judge.
As a side note to DRJ1’s comment below, I was fortunate to have been at the Staples Center in LA for the unforgettable Game 4 on our way to banner 17.
Rearranging the Deck Chairs on the Titanic
That’s what this deal is all about.
Having said that, other teams may have been acting irrationally. Nothing you can do in that case.
Is that it?
perfectly describes how I will feel if Nate is the only player we pick up this off-season.
Rondo doesn't believe in easy buckets...
dont get it
Im not understanding what more they could have done, its not the greatest move but its not a bad one…trading ray is not the answer to a chip, KG, PP, RA and Sheed playing like themselves is the answer and thus far we havent seen that…There hasnt been a single game where i seen C’s dominate all season…and i have a hard time believing that trading ray will turn things around.
They Are Playing Like Themselves
Their 30+ year-old injured selves. And what you see is what you get.
you mean young KG
This IS old KG
by KG's Knee on Feb 18, 2010 1:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
let me take a shot
I haven’t done this yet so here’s my shot in the dark,Ray Allen ,Kendrick Perkins ,Bill Walker and a pick to the Suns for Amare and Barbosa ….ok I did it ,it’ll never happen and didn’t even feel that good doin it
by reggie_35 on Feb 18, 2010 1:10 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Would do this every day of the week
And three times on Sunday.
by TheOutletPass on Feb 18, 2010 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
Jamison is a 20/9 guy this year to play along side Shaq and Lebron
We lost some serious ground today. Jamison has been a 20ppg scorer forever and we get a back up that equates to a slight edge over our back up … Cleveland had a slight edge on us, now they have a dominant edge on us… Cleveland is now stronger than LA in my mind, but i could be wrong. We will probably find out in the finals as our hopes have been shattered with Cleveland picking up a 20/9 player instead of us.
Even Before They Got Jamison
They were waaaay better than the Celtics.
by TheOutletPass on Feb 18, 2010 1:22 AM EST up reply actions
Danny said from the beginning
That the C’s were only going to trade Ray for young talent and an expiring deal. It seems fairly obvious to me that meant Wyc had no interest in taking on any bad contract, no matter how good the talent was. Every rumor involving Ray had us taking back one of these bad contracts Danny said he would not. I guess when the rumors start flying, everyone will get their hopes up. I must say, if you had paid attention to what Danny said, you would have seen this coming. The point is, none of the deals most rumored were going to garauntee us any better fortunes. This is why nine of these deals happened.
by KG's Knee on Feb 18, 2010 1:25 AM EST via mobile reply actions
meant..... none of these deals
Darn BlackBerry… Still hard as heck to type with
by KG's Knee on Feb 18, 2010 1:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
20min LEFT
With 20min left until the deadline, the Celtics still have not made a trade, even for Robinson!!!
The Australian trade deadline has passed...
And now Andrew Bogut will not be wearing Celtics green. The curse of Luc Longley strikes again.
now that the "big names" have been moved...
kev martin,tmac,jamison,butler have new teams…it’s only iguodala and amare that are staying put so far. maybe the suns could get desperate at the last minute and do ray for amare type of deal…
Listen, you need to look at this from the Cs' point of view
… and not just from a fan’s ever-enthusiastic perspective.
No matter WHAT the Cs might have done… NONE of the trades you or anyone else have fantasized about would have made any real difference to this season’s outcome. But they WOULD have put the Cs into a financial hole from which they would likely have struggled to extricate themselves for years to come. Now the key point – one you are no doubt ready to fight over – is whether any of those deals would have made a difference, right?
Here’s why not: In the end, the fortunes of this team depend on the starting 5, plus to a lesser extent Sheed and Quis. If our 5 starters do not get their act together – and I’m talking about Perk, KG, Paul and Ray – there is no way this team wins it all, REGARDLESS of any trade you or anyone else has dreamed about. (Just replacing Ray would have accomplished little. He’s not their only, and far from their worst problem.)
Therefore, doing a “big deal” as you so wanted would have accomplished little on the ground – but would have created havoc for the team financially, in light of the new CBA, the ever-dropping caps, salary limits, contract limits, and all the rest of the uncertainty that lies directly ahead.
Danny and Wyc have done the right thing. They’re filling a need the team had (backup PG and some better scoring), but they realized that they must go into battle with the soldiers they have. And that’s what they’re doing. That’s what we’re doing. Dreams don’t win championships. Hard work and a little luck is what it takes. And with that… we have a legitimate shot at winning this thing.
Off Base
A few rebuttals, as you’re missing a few key points, IMO:
1) You think we have a legit shot at winning this year (I don’t) but that no trade proposed by anyone around here could have put us over the top. Seems counterintuitive to me. If we’re that close, dealing Ray for Martin/Nocioni might have made the difference.
2) Not every trade would have put the C’s into a financial black hole, whether you assert it or not. A number didn’t include contracts that went beyond KG’s expiry in 2012. So… wrong on that one.
3) The point to making a big deal is to turn Ray’s contract into assets that can be further traded, or used in the coming years to reposition this team for a title. It’s not to try and put the team over the top this year. With KG’s health and overall decline (and PP’s similar problems) it’s not happening.
by TheOutletPass on Feb 18, 2010 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
Nope
The point you’re missing is that adding a player here or there would make NO appreciable difference to the outcome. If KG is hobbled and Paul stumbling around and Perk playing like he lost his mind… anyone can see that there is NO WAY this team can win. “No way” as in NO WAY IN HELL… no matter WHO they might add.
And yes, every trade would put an added financial burden on them… because by not trading, the Celtics get to keep all that salary relief at the end of this season. That’s a HUGE thing at a time when dollars really matter. The problem a lot of fans have is that they think the team should spend, spend, spend… as if there is no amount of money that a couple of extra percentage points of probability are not worth. But that’s not real. And that’s my point. They’ve made the right decisions this time.
And surely, even the most pessimistic fan must agree that IF the starters get their act together – KG, Paul, Perk and Ray – and if Sheed continues the 180-turnaround he’s displayed in the last 2 games and Nate works out as we hope and expect – this team has as good a shot at the title as any other team in the league.
So… we go to war with the soldiers we have. And we wait to see if they can pull it all together. They certainly have it in them.
Okay, I'll go again...
Um. I’m not missing the point of your first paragraph. I was pretty clear that was MY point too. No player they can add this year would put them over the top given KG and PP’s health/decline. I hold out no hope KG can return to title-winning form this year until I see evidence he can still jump and win a battle for a rebound and stop mediocre players off the dribble! (I take no joy in this, it’s simply the position I’ve come to adopt after watching him all season).
I don’t care about the financial burden on Wyc. I care only about this team being positioned to win a title in the future, given the present season is not gonna culminate in a championship. For me, that means turning Ray’s contract into younger assets. And I’d debate whether fielding a team in decline next year really works to their financial advantage anyway. Who wants to watch a decline of the (new) big three, again? It could be reduced fan interest/attendance costs them a bunch of money.
by TheOutletPass on Feb 18, 2010 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
Well, we agree to disagree
… on their chances this year. But I think we do agree that IF the starting 5 do pull it together – including KG returning to reasonable form (And why shouldn’t he? His knee is fixed, they said. It’s just conditioning now… they say.) – then the team DOES have a shot. Right? If that’s right, then that’s what Danny and Wyc have decided – they’ve decided to take their chances with the guys they have.
But the opening of your second paragraph is illuminating. It’s a common problem. We SHOULD care about the financial burdens on the team. Reminds me of the players who scoffed at the owners’ CBA proposals. With teams losing $400 million/year, how long can this charade go on? Where’s the money going to come from?
But I agree with you that trading Ray now for young guys to build the future with would have been a viable way to go. But… that’s only reasonable if you’ve given up on this season and you’re ready to blow it all up. As mentioned, we completely disagree on that point. This team is not dead in the water. They have the talent. They need only pull it all together. It can happen. We must wait and see.
I hope you're right!
I would LOVE to be wrong on this one and see KG turn back into what he was early last season. If that happens, I’ll be right back on the “we can win this” mindset.
I just assume that over the next 18 months, we’ll see all the financial stuff worked out in the new CBA. Stern will crush the players as usual and the owners will have safeguards in place against their own stupidity. I don’t think we’ll get a lockout. I don’t think the rank and file players can afford it, even if the stars can.
by TheOutletPass on Feb 18, 2010 2:33 AM EST up reply actions
Whatever happens...
…lockout or no (most think it’s coming, but I agree the players can’t afford it), huge changes are coming to the NBA. Any team caught way out on a financial limb – meaning way over the ever-shrinking and hardening cap – is going to be in big trouble. I believe that’s part of the Cs’ reasoning for not going out on any limbs. Not now, when there’s no way to know how it will all settle out. Once the storm blows over, they can go back to taking risks… because they’ll be defined risks then.
Btw... sorry I missed your point #3
…I read your #1 and thought you still believed we had a shot this year… but missed the opposite point at the end of #3. Oh well… maybe if you weren’t so ORGANIZED ! :)
Totally cool
I’m working on a bottle of red wine here and avoiding doing my own writing. I’m lucky I can still put a sentence together. Cheers from Toronto!
by TheOutletPass on Feb 18, 2010 2:36 AM EST up reply actions
I concur
pretty much with DRJ1’s assessment here.
Further (to some of the points in reply) – even if you gave up on this season, just having a chip (Ray’s contract) doesn’t result in a trade for ‘future goods’ if there are no trading partners with those future goods available at a price you can afford.
Most of the trade proposals bandied about didn’t make us better now or in the future. A few did, but came with huge costs (baggage contracts) that just weren’t going to work or the other team wanted too much (such as extra draft picks or players in return we simply could not give).
Maybe one of the few such deals that are left (Amare, basically) will still pan out if the suns lower the price at the last minute. But until they do, I can’t fault Ainge for standing pat.
Think logically before you post!
If we were to trade Ray Allen, we would need a starting 2 that would be better than Ray. Stoudemire is a 4 or 5! Butler is a 3 and shoots poorly from the 3 point line (26.3%)! Jamison is a 4 and is as old as Ray! Do you think Danny is an idiot? Do you think he would get players to back up starters we already have for Ray and not have a starting 2? Do you really think that would improve our team? None of the aforementioned players can play any defense. Defense is where we need to improve. We also need a 2 who can shoot the three to stretch the floor, something Ray Allen should be able to do. The only players mentioned who could replace Ray in this regard would be K-Mart or Hinrich (even though he is really a 1).
I understand roster balance
Martin could have played the 2
Iggy could have played the 2 and he plays some pretty mean defense himself
despite your objections I think Butler could have played the 2
and in most of the trade ideas I was hoping for, the chances of getting Ray to come back after 30 days was the driving force behind wanting to do the deal
if you can add Jamison and get Ray back after 30 days that’s a no brainer in my opinion
so yeah, I think I thought this through pretty logically before I posted, but that’s just my humble opinion
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
If they would buy out Ray, maybe it would be a good move.
Iggy is sick! No doubt, but he is really a 3 and doesn’t shoot all that well from beyond the arc. Butler is also a 3 and shoots even worse from beyond the arc. Yes they could play the 2, but so could Pierce. But having any of those three play the 2 is not ideal. Having only one outside shooter in the starting 5, will not get it done in today’s NBA. It already hurts us that Rondo cannot shoot well from outside. Ray is ideal if he shoots like he is capable! Hopefully that will happen again, this year. Iggy or Martin for Ray straight up, Ainge would do. But that was never an option.
Iggy would have been a poor 2 next to Paul and Rondo
unless Rondo developed into a 3PT threat to balance the floor. The starters on this team need one other 3PT threat to balance against Pierce.
That’s not to knock Iggy. He’s a great basketball player. But he’s not a perimeter shooter (pretty bad actually).
Butler similarly. Both are great players, but they provide different strengths that would require more reworking of the Celtics starters than just dropping them in place of Ray. As such, they would only make sense from a more long-term perspective. The problem is that we’d still be constrained on how much we can do over this next year in what we could do to retool the team to better fit their skills. So we’d still be stuck waiting for KG’s contract …
Martin would have been the closest thing to a drop-in replacement.
DRJ1 you are right on!
Maybe you should write articles on here instead of Jeff Clark.
Shhh
Actually, Jeff is usually highly optimistic. But he’s human. And he cares, a lot. I’m confident he will right the ship, no doubt as early as tomorrow.
And hey… I’m excited at getting to see Nate play for the Cs. Can’t wait to see what happens!
whats with the negativity?
THE BEST THING WE CAN DO AS FANS IS BE OPTIMISTIC. AND STOP COMPLAINING. if the celtics have to turn their season around we all know it, but we just stop complaining
I think Nate brings,,,,
I think Nate brings a lot to the table and maybe we can sign Zydrunas Ilgauskas after he’s bought out.
Big Z is going back to Cleveland
we have no shot at him… he’s spent his entire career there, through the good and the bad – he’s goin back for his chance at a ring
Rondooooooo
Wait, don't we already have
… a big, slow center who loves to stand at the line and chuck 3s?
Just kiddin’ Sheed… you’ve really turned it around in the last 2 games. Keep it up big guy!
On this...
We totally agree.
Get down on the block Sheed. And stay there.
by TheOutletPass on Feb 18, 2010 2:27 AM EST up reply actions
Martin is the only player I would've traded Ray for.
Too bad Danny didn’t work that trade out for our future. As far as this year is concerned, having Ray will be just as good. If our starting five plays with the hunger of the ’08 season we can compete. Lets hope they can find that fire again. Oh yeah, KG will be fine by playoff time. He just needs to get confidence back, in regards to his knee. Trust me I have had a couple of knee injuries and even when they feel 100%, you are hesitant on them for awhile.
WTF!?
The Rockets get K-Mart for Landry and Dorsey, AND, they don’t have to take Nocioni. How the hell does that happen? I have been against almost every rumored trade for Ray there has been. But a deal for K-Mart without any baggage I would have LOVED! Maybe Dannny really is asleep at the wheel. Either that or Wyc has decided he’s not spending another dime, end of story.
by KG's Knee on Feb 18, 2010 4:15 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Landry is pretty good
and he fills a need for the Kings. Ray Allen doesn’t, that would just be cap relief, which I don’t even think they need.
by funkstarrdeluxe on Feb 18, 2010 9:16 AM EST up reply actions
So they weren't at all interested in McGrady's $22.5 M expiring contract?
THAT is what was more valuable to them than Ray Allen (just under $19M).
Yup, that's it.
Apparently, that’s all DA can afford and thta’s all he is willing to offer
He's not going to be happy
Nate is not going to be thrilled at playing 16-20 mpg, unless he gets extra minutes backing up Perk.
by Celtsfansince55 on Feb 18, 2010 4:55 AM EST reply actions
I am depressed! If getting Nate is the only thing we do...
…we are pretty much done for this season and more…
We have 30 million in expiring contracts! That is an unbelievable asset! If we don`t take advantage of that, then I don`t even know what to say…
If only Wyc reads this blog
He will find so many bloggers ready, willing and more than able (by their own lights) to replace Ainge. Go back to fantasy basketball guys.
by Celtsfansince55 on Feb 18, 2010 5:00 AM EST reply actions
no one wants Ray Allen
everbody looks at his age and that he is struggling – thats the reason why nobody wants him… Thats what you guys have to realize! I guess Danny also would like to have Iggy for Ray, but thats a no brainer for the sixers – just to good to be true! We just should hope that Nate can give us a push, that we need.
I asked god and he said: L.A. will lose again next year!! ^_°
Everybody wants Ray
…or his huge expiring contract. Ragardless of how he’s playing. If he’s not traded that means Danny didn’ find the right deal for him.
If somebody wants the cripple named McGrady....
Then surely someone would be interested in a guy still able to come off screens and is a 90% FT shooter.
Amazing how ready some are willing to spend so freely
…when it’s somebody else’s money getting spent. All those supposedly great deals… would not change the fact that our core players must step up. The difference to our chances would have been small to minimal, but the hit to the bottom line would likely have been enormous, spread out over several years… years during which the newly minted CBA will arrive, complete with lots of resistance, stricter caps, tighter limits on salaries, and lots of other game-changing rules.
Look, they set the course 2.5 years ago, and they’re sticking with it till it’s clear they must change. Ray’s expiring $$ is going to be very good to have as the fecal matter (CBA) hits the fan next year. And remember, again… none of these deals would have changed the basic situation for the Cs: the starters have to step up, and that’s that. Changing one of them, or adding a new piece, would make very little difference.
Look at it this way
- If our core guys step up, no changes or additions are needed whatsoever. We’re absolutely competitive with any other team around.
- If our core guys do not step up, no change or addition is going to make any difference to the final result: we will lose.
Therefore, there is no good reason to make a financially and chemically risky trade now.
I would argue "no"
We would be competitive with most of the other teams around, especially in our division. However, with the recent trades by the Cavs and the emergence of Atlanta and Orlando as strong teams, we are a fourth seed at best in the East. If the Heat gets Amare, we would likely see them in the first round of the playoffs, and that is a series that could go either way…
by funkstarrdeluxe on Feb 18, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
I totally agree!
None of the players in the trade rumors would have made us much better this year. Trust me, KG will be back this year looking like last year before the knee injury. I hope Ray’s shooting touch will also be back.
The Cavs move will not make them better.
Jamison is so overrated!!!!!!!!!! 20/9 on a crap team, gimme a break. Big Baby could be a 20/9 guy on a team like Washington.
Surprised to see you so disappointed, Jeff.
What did you expect? You were the first to say that our trade assets had really no chance of landing us a player who would help us now and in the future.
It’s true that Cleveland got Jamison for nothing, and we could have had him too but we didn’t need him as much as the Cavs did since we are already stacked at his position. And his contract is terrible.
Houston got Kevin Martin but they had to give up Carl Landry in the deal, an asset we simply didn’t have.
I don’t blame Danny, I think it’s obvious to everybody he did his best to make a good deal for us but he didn’t find a taker because our assets weren’t enough valuable.
I understand you’re disappointed because this trade season is exciting since we envision new players in green and plans for the future but we knew all these scenarios were pipe dreams at first and they still are.
Now I’m fine if we stay with Ray and make minor tweaks to the bench in addition of Robinson (not sold on that move but we will see what he does for us…).
Also, the deadline is still hours ago… Anything is possible, remember? ;)
like I said
I was just hoping for more
oh well, too bad so sad
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
I think most of you guys will be surprised by what Robinson will bring to this team, and how the make-up of our team will drastically change with this simple move. We’ll see an influx of speed, of easy buckets, energy and vastly limit the ball hanging around players that have no ball-handling skills…
Nate Robinson for us is a pretty big deal, you guy will see.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 18, 2010 6:37 AM EST reply actions
exactly
I agree! Thats how I see this move – Nate is much better than Eddy and he brings us the energy and If KG isn’t able to catch alley oop-passes any longer, just throw them to Krypto-Nate :-)
I asked god and he said: L.A. will lose again next year!! ^_°
I'm willing to keep an open mind about Nate
just don’t know what to expect from him yet
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
Have a little faith my friend, it’s nut-crushing time.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 18, 2010 7:55 AM EST up reply actions
thanks Sheed
I have faith, it just doesn’t happen to be of the blind variety
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
I know i'm in the minority, but...
i really think Nate could be a boon for the bench. He is a much better ball handler than Eddie. Th is means he can play the point and free up Quisy for other duites. Again I know I’m in the minority, but starting Quisy and bringing Ray off the bench might really work.
Oh well, Doc will never do this. He just doesn’t think outside the box ever.
I don’t think you’re in the minority, I think most agree that this is a good move… it’s just that people that complain always shout the loudest. It has always been.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 18, 2010 8:24 AM EST up reply actions
Stoudemire and filler for Ray and Perk
I think that this is the trade you are going to see today. Sheed has been being played differently by Doc to see if he can handle center duties to replace Perk.
We’re going to have Sheed and Stoudemire and KG as our big 3 in the front court!!!
Rondo and Nate make a nice 1-2 punch at the point.
Ray Allen will get bought out by Phoenix so they can really tank the rest of the way. And Ray will be back in Boston in a month.
Sure, I will miss Perk. But he did get benched at the end of the orlando game. Ask yourself – why did he get benched? There is a reason for that people – when the center that defends Howard the best of anyone in the league gets benched for the last 15 or so minutes of an important game and he wasn’t in foul trouble. Perhaps he is the guy playing for a contract and wanting more touches and taking the team out of ubuntu.
At any rate, Perk and Ray Allen have to be better than anything that Miami can/will offer for Stoudemire.
I'd rather have Perk in the middle than Amare.
Amare has no heart and plays little defense. Perk is a stud. We definitely cannot compete with Sheed or Amare as our starting center. Amare would only give us more scoring. We need more D!
Robinson vs House
I love Eddie House, but this would be a great trade for the Celtics. The past 2 years in the playoffs, the Celtics have been in desperate need of a point guard. Remember the issues they had vs Lindsay Hunter 2 years ago ? House simply doesn’t have a good enough handle to play point (or even the 2) in the playoffs. Ainge knows this. This move is for the playoffs… and, it could be for finishing games as well. When Rondo is afraid to shoot (see Lakers Finals 2008), I assure you that Robinson will be in to finish games.
ray and scal for barbossa and stoudemire works on trade checker
Barbossa is more a 1 than a 2 but we get back a guard plus help for the front court which we need. stoudemire and rondo would work well together. Phoenix gets 2 expiring contracts. We lose a lot of 3 point shooting but we become much quicker and also better defensively. the move also gives you flexibiility next year in terms of wallace leaving since stoudemire can either start at center or be your 6th man.
Phoenix wants young players and draft picks in addition to an expiring deal
YOUNG PLAYERS
DRAFT PICKS
by post-it note on Feb 18, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
I hope Ainge is not done....
Nate is a upgrade over house, but the team still is in dire need of more help.
With Nate now on board he can help run the point better than House and probably Daniels so the back up point guard problem we had has been remedied.
He will also be able to create his own shot unlike House so when the offense breaks down Nate can help bail us out.
But what about the need for a long, strong athletic power forward who can also rebound?
I think this is now our biggest weak spot and we can not head into the playoffs counting on a aging and ailing KG who has lost his athleticism or Big Baby who never had any.
We also need more rebounding from the power forward position since both KG and Garnett have been struggling on the boards this year.
I would also like the C’s to a big, athletic defending – offensive scoring small forward with Pierce hobbling around and showing his age this year.
Can we get both probably not, though we almost did last week if the Jamison and Butler deal was to be believed.
The season I think rides on today the move Ainge does not make or makes I think will decide the fate of the C’s this year.
I am hoping for the best possible trade scenario, lets see what happens .
Nate = Ricky Davis?
A guy you bring in to add some youth, scoring, and athleticism but who is ultimately just a piece to barter down the road for something better.
Danny needs to bring in younger talent. Whether or not a guy like Robinson sticks or is used in a trade piece down the road or whatever, this is about starting the retooling process.
Think about all those deals and draft picks that culminated in the Ray Allen and KG deals. It took years for Danny to build up to that. Raef, Jiri Welsch, Ricky Davis, Delonte, etc. those guys were the currency to pay for KG and Ray.
Well it turns out KG didn’t stay healthy long enough and Pierce is slowing down. We’re still a top 4 playoff team in the East but we will need a boost or a drink from the fountain of youth to get past CLE, ORL, or ATL.
This "get healthy" idea is a fantasy
People, get your heads out of the sand. KG is not “getting healthy”. His knees are shot. He hasn’t been the same player for over a year now. If he’s not healthy by now, he never will be.
Pierce? It pains me to say this. He is my 2nd favorite Celtic ever next to Larry. He is slow and plodding. He is not aggressive. He is no longer able to put the team on his back in the 4th quarter, which WAS his trademark. Go watch your championship DVD and watch him outplay both Lebron and Kobe. He is not the same player. Do you know how many 30 pt games he has this year? Two. Two out of 51. Lebron and Kobe average 30/game.
If Danny cannot make a major move right now, with $30 million worth of expiring deals before the best free agent class in league history……he is a failure. A colossal failure. Jamison was acquired for nothing. Kevin Martin is being moved. Heck, even Camby was traded for a bag of balls and our team seems to think that rebounding is optional.
This is seriously depressing. You pooped the bed on this one, Danny.
by bewareofdware on Feb 18, 2010 11:24 AM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
There's no way for you to know
…whether or not KG will improve. Reports are they fixed his knee issue, and that he’s working his way back. He could get all the way back, or he could not. Nobody knows, not even KG, probably. We just wait and see.
Paul has sucked, yes, but he could turn it around at any moment. He has the (over)confidence, and so far as we know, there are no seriously defective body parts. So again, we wait and see.
Ray has sucked from time to time. But he seems perfectly healthy, and has always gotten it together in the past… so there’s every reason to hope he will again (in a more-permanent way).
Perk – is actually the one I’m most worried about. His game is so off now, it’s clear that his head has been unscrewed and then rescrewed badly. As a result, we’re all screwed. He seems to have reverted back to the Bad Perk of his rookie days. But… he does have some new moves, and he’s healthy. So there’s hope that with the right kind of talking-to, he will get it together again. (And please, lose the stupid attitude Perk. Refs don’t owe you anything, and your constant scowling and complaining is NOT the way to get them on your side.)
Perk's only real problem
is happy feet. He keeps traveling and moving on picks. He seems to kill 3-4 possessions each game with those.
The slow-as-eternity-gather under the hoop looks bad – but actually only happens one every game or two. It is pretty freakin’ aggravating when it happens though. You are one foot from the basket. Go up for the shot!!!!!
But the happy feet – that’s lack of concentration. Focus.
As far as moves go – this is something that he really SHOULD take lessons from Sheed on. Sheed is a wizard when it comes to post moves. Perk could use a few of them.
disappointed
Nate will help but I was hoping for more. Marcus Landry??? please. Maybe we waive him and the knicks waive giddens and walker. we just picked up another roster spot so I have to believe danny will be looking at the waiver wire
ambivalent? Why, Danny said from the word go that he would make a small “twick” and he mad a small twick. Those who doint believe him, well, they hava a big problema. He never lied. He never promised you Lalalalandia. He said we had a 3 year window to win a flag. He delivered. Whats the Problem? a la Vinnie Callo
Suns fan here
To hear you guys bitch and moan about the fact that you have ageing stars (KG and Ray) and would much prefer having Al now is pathetic.
The C’s knew that had a 3 year window to win a title or 2, and you did it. you won a title by gambling on KG. You enjoyed it, and now you are suffering for it.
but….
YOU…WON….A….TITLE.
The suns now have ageing stars (Nash and Hill) and they don’t have anything to show for it, and we almost traded our one decent asset (Amare) for JJ fkn Hickson and cap space!
I just wanted to put it in perspective for you.
Enjoy the playoffs….. at least you’ll be there.
Don't be too harsh on all of us. Most of us definitely are grateful for what we've already got
out of this team. And some of us are hopeful we can squeeze a little bit more out of the old warriors 3.
A few folks may have lost touch with that and make a lot of noise, but most folks here are totally appreciative of Banner 17 and especially how wonderful that season was.
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