A Godfather Proposal
by Jeff Clark on Feb 2, 2010 10:02 AM EST
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117 comments
Nobody has banged the "don't trade Ray Allen" drum louder than yours truly. I'm not changing that tune until I hear a realistic trade rumor that makes sense for us this year and for the future. Even under ideal circumstances, getting a player acclimated to the Celtics system (especially on defense) would be a challenge with just a few months to the playoffs. Ray just fits this team like a glove and I have great confidence that he'll be there when we need him this year.
With that said, I never said never. I'm willing to listen to offers (as I'm sure Danny is) and explore creative ways to improve the roster (as Danny is reportedly doing).
But what would that deal look like? What could move me off my hard line? The answer came from another blogger: Jordan from Liberty Ballers (SBN's 76ers blog). Here's his proposal (not a rumor, just his idea):
Andre Iguodala and Lou Williams for Ray Allen and 2 first rounders.
Here is his rationale:
Based on talent alone, this is a terrible deal for the Sixers. Andre Iguodala is probably a better player than Ray Allen at this point in their careers and Iguodala is entering his prime. Throw in Lou Williams -- who can be a very solid bench player for the Celtics -- and the Celtics win the talent battle by a long shot. However; the Sixers have far more to worry about than receiving equal talent.
In this deal the Sixers have a chance to dump two of their longest contracts for an expiring, saving approximately 72 million. It'd be the first step in hitting the reset button and starting from scratch. That's where the two first-rounders come in. Even though they project to be relatively late first-rounders, draft picks are the best way to re-build -- something the Sixers desperately need to do.
Tell me that doesn't at least interest you a little bit. Even if you are the biggest Ray Allen fan in the world, that trade idea has to give you pause.
One variation to consider would be subbing Kopono for Williams because he makes a higher annual salary (so including him would help the Sixers pay less luxury tax this year).
Before you dismiss this deal out of hand, consider Marc Stein's report from earlier this week that the Sixers are looking to move salary in any way possible:
Iguodala, though, is difficult for Philly to move because of all that money he's still owed. Not as difficult as moving Elton Brand or Samuel Dalembert, but all of the teams that like Iguodala - Houston, Dallas and Cleveland are known to have shown varying degrees of interest - have reservations about taking on a deal that big.
The Celtics aren't worried about signing LeBron in the offseason and they don't have much hope of clearing cap space anytime soon, so why not take on salary if it upgrades the team for the present and future?
The first rounders are of little consequence to me. The one this year would be another near-second rounder and the one 2 years from now (you can't trade back to back years) would likely be late as well (you could always tack on some restrictions if you like).
Iggy isn't going to be anyone's "alpha-dog" or "guy-you-build-around," as evidenced in Philly. However, he's a stat sheet filling, versatile, not-quite-All-Star talent that would fill a whole bunch of holes on this team while adding some much needed youth and athleticism. He's also not a volume shooter, so he could find his role in this offense easier than most big name players. Looking ahead, he would be a nice piece to add to the core of Rondo and Perkins.
I'm not too familiar with Lou Williams or his game, but he's a backup point guard, which is another need this team has. If it is Kopono instead, then he provides some of the 3 point shooting we'd lose by trading Ray.
Losing Ray would be hard, but it might be worth it for a sweetheart deal like this.
Still not convinced? Ok, there's one more probably-too-good-to-be-true scenario that I would love to see happen. What if the financially strapped 76ers decided to buy out the rest of Ray's contract, potentially saving millions in salary and luxury tax savings? Ray would get a 30 day vacation (you know he'd still be in top shape, but with less wear and tear) before deciding that he wouldn't mind signing on with the Celtics for the rest of the year for close to or more than the amount of money he lost in the buyout process.
Yes, this is absolutely a homer trade idea from my perspective, but keep in mind that I didn't come up with the idea. Also keep in mind the Pau Gasol trade. Stranger things have happened and we're likely to see some pretty strange stuff happen in the next few weeks.
Do I really think this has much of a chance of taking place? No, not really. But the point was to show that even the biggest proponents for keeping Ray Allen can be moved off that perch if presented with the right kind of deal. Which is why Danny will always listen to offers.
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to good to be true
I watched a lot of Phily-Games and I totally agree to this. Iggy can catch a lot from Rondo in the air, giving much needed athleticism we do not have with Ray and I wrote it on the other post: we don’t need 2 closers if we could get much other needed things for it – like rebounds, blocks and of course minutes (Iggy is bigger, can jump higher and just 26)
I asked god and he said: L.A. will lose again next year!! ^_°
If it`s true...It`s a "no-brainer" for DA!
Essentially….it`s Ray for Iggy
What is there to even consider?
Do it, DA!
Only in my dreams
This trade is just impossibile.
Anyway, you know my opinion: Iguodala is the best player we can get in reward. Young, athletic, very good defender (he can be useful to stop player like Bryant, LeBron, Wade etc), he can be useful right now and be the right core (along with rondo) for the future. I’ll trade Allen only for Iggy. Williams? 24 years, 31 mins, 14,4 pts, 467% 2pt, 331% 3pt, 4 ast… PULL THE TRIGGER NOW
Rondo/Williams
Iguodala/House
Pierce/Daniels/Tony
KG/Wallace/BBD
Perkins/Wallace/Shelden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbD21_HEvDU&feature=related
I’m really in love with this guy
It's good but..
We’d also lose a great shooter. Rondo and Iggy would probably be the worst shooting back court in the NBA.
I would do it if Ray was bought out and we re-signed him after 30 days.
I like Iguodala and he would fill needs but he is just not worth the contract he has, and it woulrt hurt us in the future to pay “franchise money” to a guy who is clearly not a franchise player.
Your affection for Ray is clouding your judgement...
Iggy is the far better player today, and would be an excellent long term addition next to Rondo. He also has a contract more comparable to Rondo’s than to Paul’s or KG’s.
Do we think these guys grow on trees? There are no guys with perfect games or perfect contracts. The Cs have the ability to add dog**** for talent until the end of KG’s contract unless a trade like this is made.
I think the Cs will lose out here unless we’re willing to take on Delambert. Both Houston and Cleveland can offer better packages.
no cursing
or masked profanity please – you know this
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
The only way this is feasible, unless Philly’s GM is drunk (see Chris Wallace and the Gasol trade; although this is NOT looking nearly as one-sided in retrospect).
I think that we would have to include Perk and Scals (to make the salaries work) and be willing to take back Dalembart’s bloated contract for this to be doable.
http://www.realgm.com/src_tradechecker/3/
Smitty77
He does
and that would be my only problem. Who is going to play shooting guard Iggy or Paul? I certainly don’t want Paul chasing around shooting guards. Not sure if Iggy has played that position and seems just as a true small forward. However in the playoffs especially against the Cavs I would much rather have Iggy chasing Lebron around and save Paul’s legs for offense.
Paul is 6’7 and Iggy is 6’6! Like Pippen and Jordan – any questions left? It just seems to be perfect to me..
I asked god and he said: L.A. will lose again next year!! ^_°
OK if what you say is true
Pierce and Iggy are like Jordan and Pippen.
Which one is Jordan?
"Memphis then used a pick-and-roll to get Conley free and he drove past Shaquille O'Neal for the go-ahead layup."
^^
Ha, I guess I’m checking now what you mean: I do not wanna compare them!!! Nobody of them is like Jordan or nearly as good as Pippen, but they fit excellent at their positions and would be great contenders for other teams like Orlando for example ;-) :-P
I asked god and he said: L.A. will lose again next year!! ^_°
That would be a dream come true...
…and we could always trade Williams again if his salary would be too much of a burden….
Two first rounders and Ray with his expiring contract?
That’s too much for Iggy and some pine coverage. We’re in early rebuilding mode and can’t trade our easiest tradeables without getting a stud back.
Forget the Two First Rounders
And I’d rather have Jason Kapono and Jrue Holiday. Williams would be a bench player in Boston, and you don’t pay that kind of money long term for a bench player.
I disagree
I was thinking we should get Williams and play along side tony Allen, he will be much better than House
The Cs are going to have to give up picks / take back something they don't want for Iggy
They’re not just going to give him away. And the Cs will / do have competition from teams like Houston, Cleveland and Dallas who AREN’T in their division and who have better talent to offer than the zero talent we have.
Exactly
I don’t see Iggy coming here without Dalembert or Brand attached to him. Our offer would have to be clearly better than what Houston, Cleveland or Dallas are offering for them to trade him to us (their historic within division rival).
This seems completely unrealistic. More what you’d expect a C’s fan to come up with. Funny that it was a Sixers fan who suggested it.
To be clear
I think the Cs could get him, and it wouldn’t take adding Brand (who they are stuck with perminantly).
But dreams of withholding picks or throwing in Kapono are just that — dreams. The Cs will have to give up some form of future (picks, maybe Baby, whatever) and take on some more money (Delambert worst case, Williams best case) to trade no real talent for one of the most underrated players in the league.
I like that actually
in theory I’d give up Davis for Dalembert in a heartbeat (though it would be quite a bill to pay for Wyc next year)
works in the trade checker
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yg2axvl
but I’d have to look at the future years
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
This is the major issue
taking Iggy and Sam D considering Rondo’s new contract makes for a huge bill for Wyc and Co next year before signing any FAs.
So trading Baby in the deal would be a given (saving Wyc 6mil next year) — you’d have to. Even then, this is not as simple as ‘get er done’. I’m constantly pushing for ownership to spend while the window is open, but this is pretty extreme.
that may have been the reason for adding williams
that is a long contract for a bench player, Iggy is the focus.
the 6ers arent doing this for talent but financial breathing room which this would be
by Warrior Spirit on Feb 2, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
not a great dream
Iggy’s contract is a killer down the road. Yes he’s an upgrade over Ray and Williams would be the backup PG we’ve been looking for but consider having Rondo, Iggy and Perk under longterm deals each 10 mill per year and more. None of these 3 are the superstars you would need to build a franchise on with that kind of team expenditure. C’s would be handcuffed financially with little chance to immediately begin rebuilding in the post-Big 3 era. Danny would have to get very lucky in the draft to find that special player that turns out to be a bonafide all star (such as the Rondo pick).
how is it a killer contract?
when the guy is 26 years old and entering his prime????
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
It’s for franchise-type money and Iggy isn’t a franchise player. When taken into consideration with Rondo’s new contract and the one Perk will be getting, those 3 contracts combined will tie up the C’s finances significantly for 3 players where none of them are really good enough to carry a team by themselves.
If the C’s still had financial flexibility with those 3 contracts to land another couple of very good players, that would lessen my concern.
this rationale makes no sense
he’d be the third highest paid player on the team, he’s one of the premiere defenders in the game, he gets to the line alot, and he’s not a volume shooter.
basically, he’s a highly underrated player in the league.
bad contracts belong to guys who are overpaid to suck (i.e brand), not so much guys who are a well paid to be very good at what they do. “franchise” has nothing to do with it.
Cs fans should know this considering we pay 3 guys over $18mil a year NOT to be “franchise” players.
really?
do you really think a core of Rondo, Iggy and Perk are going to win a title? With the $ that’ll be tied up with those 3 players at that time, that’s what you’re banking on. Also, Iggy doesn’t take over a game to get that end-of-game bucket you need in a close game.
I like Iggy, but if I’m taking on a pricey contract that will limit my team’s flexibility to add more really good players, I want someone that can put the team on his back and carry them at the end of a game if need be. Iggy isn’t that player as much as he’s an improvement over Ray. He’s not Pierce in his prime at the end of a game.
Franchise money....
This whole “franchise money for a non-franchise guy” thing is really ridiculous. So much of it depends on the player’s tenure in the league. Ray has definitely not been a franchise player for us, and he makes over 18 million this year. That 6 million more than iguodala, who is probably a better all-around player!
If you had a player like iguodala who’d gotten a max deal (say amare) and it was his second deal, max money (franchise money) would be like 17 mil per year, and 12 million would be considered a discount, and it wouldn’t be “franchise” money!
ok, so who are you going to go get, and how?
in the meantime, maybe we can start a list of players who pass, score, defend, hustle and play team ball as well as Iggy who make less than he does (not including dudes on rookie contracts). who are these guys?
The Cs got Pierce with the 10th pick in the draft and were lucky to do so. You wanna go back to earning the 10th pick or higher to get your guy? Maybe we can lose 2/3s of our games again for another 7-10 years after….
Why not?
do you really think a core of Rondo, Iggy and Perk are going to win a title?
Why not? Rondo and Perk have won a championship already, and if we can agree that Iggy is about an equal exchange (if not better) for Ray, then consider the probality that a more experienced, Rondo and Perk plus Iggy mixed with PP and KG could compete effectively for the chanmpionship. Why not?
With the $ that’ll be tied up with those 3 players at that time, that’s what you’re banking on. Also, Iggy doesn’t take over a game to get that end-of-game bucket you need in a close game.
That would still be less money tied up compared to the Big 3 pre-championship. What do you mean by “Iggy doesn’t take over a game…”? Does Ray do that now? Are you suggesting or assuming that Ray’s decline is somehow reversible, while the 26 yr-old Iggy has reached his peak? If there’s an assumption to be made as to which of these two players has an upside, it would be Iggy, NOt Ray.
by The Village Idiot on Feb 2, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
disagree man
committing 35 mil to Rondo, Perk, and Iguodola is a comparative bargain for a young core. Considering that you have PP and KG on the team anyway, there is no lack of talent or of “superstars” on that team. Plus, after next season PP salary comes off the books, and the following year KG salary comes off. Seems to me like a great financial and talent transition – probably too good to be true.
by milt palacio's shot on Feb 6, 2010 7:57 AM EST up reply actions
According to one opposing general manager who has spoken with the Celts recently, "I’m pretty sure they’re going to be looking at a lot of things in the summer, but for now Danny doesn’t want to do anything that doesn’t make them better right away."
yup
but in reality, that’s not making a very bold statement – pretty much what most have been saying all along
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
But i like this quote
“…I’m pretty sure they’re going to be looking at a lot of things in the summer…”
yeah
I don’t want to get into it too much during the year, but this could be a winds-of-change type of offseason
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
I don`t see that at all...
…if we don`t make a trade in the next couple of weeks this is pretty much the team we will have until 2012 when KG expires…
Our only chance for a bigger change is Ray`s expiring contract. Next offseason we basically have NO flexibility whatsoever…
exactly
that’s what I’ve mentioned in the forums and other posts.
If Danny makes no moves this season, his hands are pretty much tied this offseason. His only options for filling the roster are:
- Resign his own FA’s
- Trade PP and/or Walker as expiring deals
- Use the MLE for one player or split it for multiple players
- sign players to Vet Min contracts
He’s got the following spots opening up for next year that he has to fill:
Ray, Giddens, Scal, TA, House, Marquis, Shelden
He’s also got to start thinking about resigning Perk who’d be in the last year of his deal. (PP too for that matter)
It’s unlikely he’ll get someone as good as Ray (even at his current level of play) for the full MLE so resigning Ray looks like the only option there.
A
fter that, what do you do with the MLE—>use it on another big piece off the bench or split it to cover multiple spots with lesser players? Depends who’s available after all the cap space is used by the teams with big $ to spend.
Are any of the C’s FA’s worth bringing back and can they be resigned for appropriate $? Daniels hasn’t played enough to justify an increase. He’s a decent enough pick up. How about TA? Played himself into consideration this year for another deal. They’re both perpetual injury risks though.
Is Shelden worth bringing back for the min again? Would he take that much again?
Is House worth bringing back? Not based on this year’s performance but if the MLE is used on one player and it’s not a SG or combo guard, is House the only option other than a vet min?
Scal and Giddens are gone barring a stunning surprise.
The draft will be a crapshoot where Danny’s picking unless he buys another pick from someone not looking to add the cost of a 1st round contract.
In all, I wouldn’t be surprised to see 6 new faces on the team next year but maybe only 1 of them to be someone that could legitimately crack the rotation.
I think management only trades Pierce if they can get him to LA.
The Clips have too few players we want, so my curiosity is what might be possible with the Lakers. What else might go along with a Pierce-Odom trade? Too out there? Or, is there any possible way to stick KG back in the Timberwolves tube? I think we’re going to have a wild summer.
PP will retire a Celtic
Barring a ridiculous demand by PP in a contract extension, he’ll retire a C. As much as Danny says anyone is fair game to keep contending, the majority of the fanbase would have his head on a platter if PP is moved. I’m necessarily in disagreement about that but I also realizes that hamstrings the ability for the C’s to retool on the fly next year.
bingooooooo
You are right my friend. Or we trade the only asset that we have or next year we are gonna be older!!!
Loves it...
Especially with Lou Williams ‘thrown in’… he is a baller.
This is my problem with the trade
Louis Williams is not a “throw-in” player. Obviously the guy coming up with the trade was just trying to make the salaries work, but instead of taking a possible throw-in piece like Jason Kapono, he wants Williams. I’m shocked that Jeff Clark is adding any credence to this ridiculous suggestion.
by The_Real_Mike on Feb 2, 2010 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
well
1. Williams has a longer term deal
2. It is also about what the celtics need, with PP, Iggy and Daniels the C’s won’t need Kapono (I know he is a big 3 but he doesn’t use his size)
3. if it would be kapono, then I think 1 first rounder would be enough.
If the sixers really want to dump salary then I then maybe add kapono and Scal to the trade.
Core???
Not sure if Rondo can be the “main man” going forward. Doesn’t score enough. Great facilitator though, love him on my team. Slamtheking makes a good point. Three guys making around 10 million a year is going to really tie up payroll especially once the new CBA is in effect. All GM’s are going to have to scrutinize how the’re assembling their rosters and payroll closer than they ever have before when a hard cap is in place. All these stories talk about teams wanting to dump players due to their salaries and does it ever happen? No. Maybe this deadline and coming summer we will see it. The GM who said that Ainge is going to be looking at a lot of different things this summer ?? His hands will be tied to a certain extent just like last summer due to payroll. And Ray probably won’t be back either. He’ll need to fill the shooting guard spot without a lot of money to do it with. Tony Allen anyone???
Nah
This trade would cripple us for the future. Iggy has talent but a killer contract.
I think in that last week of the trade deadline, the deals will get better. Teams will be trying hard to shed salary.a
by Ragetti on Feb 2, 2010 8:40 AM EST via mobile reply actions
If that is a trade the Sixer want to do...
You have to be insane if your the C’s not to think about it.
Iguodala traded for a 35 year old Ray Allen is a steal.
He would be just what the Celtics need a strong, athletic wing scorer and defender.
Iguodala not only will help help us this year but will long term as well (so the contract does not bother me)
Keep in mind Pierce and KG’s contracts come off the books in the next couple of years, so we can add another piece (super star caliber player ) to the rebuilding puzzle at that time using their $$$.
But its important for Danny not to jump the gun, he should wait things out until closer to the deadline see if we can get anything better potentially first.
If not then I say pull the trigger Danny.
About my earlier point
that Ainge should be patient and not jump the gun on trading Ray for Iguodala since other better trade opportunities may become avaible.
This is a perfect example of one if true I think would be better:
http://indyposted.com/10168/ray-allen-to-the-bulls-for-hinrich-salmons-and-thomas/
Jordan must be a Celtics fan...
…because if the Sixers are willing to give up Iguodala and Williams for cap relief and two first round picks in the upper 20’s, then there are a lot of teams that could make better offers. As much as this would be a great trade for the Celtics – no argument there – there’s just no way that the Sixers make this move. Maybe Iggy for cap relief by himself, but throwing in Williams is a no-go.
But I love the fact that some fans think they wouldn’t make this deal. I suppose these are the same people who didn’t want to trade the mighty Al Jefferson for Kevin Garnett.
Actually, there really aren't. . .
a lot of better offers out there. We have the number one expiring contract in the league this year in Ray Allen. the Sixers are literally HEMORRHAGING money. last or second to last in attendance, combined with a humongous payroll, and it’s easy to see why their primary concern is shedding salary at that’s it. no one will trade for Brand or Sam D. so trading AI is their only option of saving money.
Jeff’s trade proposal is extremely realistic. extremely. i think some of you might be in denial about just how bad the finances are for 60% of the league. no team is in a better trade position than we are right now, because we have what everybody wants: a huge expiring contract.
technically I think that goes to Mcgrady and his huge contract
talentless as he is
by Warrior Spirit on Feb 2, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
actually
depending on the talent in the deal, the sixers would rather have ray allen’s contract because he’s paid less and therefore requires less tax payment for nothing. Using a trade of Ray and Baby for example — vs. trading for McGrady alone — the sixers get Baby for the same price they’d pay for T-Mac.
So in a way, Ray is more attractive IF that’s the deal they hold out for.
I don't know about that
if the Sixers traded both Dalembert and Iggy for McGrady straight up (which works by the way) they would actually save about 1.4 M in cap space this year
but would the Rockets sign up for that deal?
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
but...
you’d have to imagine they’d rather have A) a young, good player like Baby at the price, and b) Ray Allen to sign and trade instead of T-Mac. I think a number of teams would be happy to have Ray on moderate money for 2-3 years. The number of team that would choose to add McGrady (i.e. injuries, lazy, selfish) under the same circumstances would be smaller, limiting those s-and-t options….
you're right
I forgot about stupid TMac. well then Ray’s gotta be second highest, right? i know i could look it up, but i’m too lazy.
Jermaine O’Neal has the largest expiring contract ($23 million) but Miami isn’t going to trade him unless they get a Chris Bosh type player in return. Tracy McGrady ($22.5 million) is number two on the list. Shaq is number three ($21 million). Ray Allen is number four ($18.8 million).
They are the only expiring contracts over $14 million.
Jermaine O'Neil and Tracy McGrady
contracts expire and are larger than Ray Allens.
Hear that chewing sound????
It’s the NBA Fantasy Day Traders chewing on the bones of Ray Allen
Danny AInge is coming over to my house tonight for dinner to discuss it ….because….“you keep your friends close and your enemies closer”
Is it Soup Yet?
was waiting for this
actually, I thought you were going to go the Groundhog Day route (every day the same thing)
:)
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
are you a friend or enemy?
…or frenemy?
1. Okay, campers, rise and shine, and don’t forget your booties ‘cause it’s cooooold out there today
2. You wanna throw up here, or you wanna throw up in the car?
When Perk was asked what he thought of Howard winning the gold medal this summer, he responded: "What’s his impression of me after I won a ring?"
Picks???
That would make them the 2011 and 2013 picks at the earliest – no? You cannot trade back to back picks in the NBA and the 2009 pick was traded (was that the KG pick?). So the first they could ship off is the 2011 and then 2012 would be locked into the C’s…
Nope
That “first round pick two years in a row” thing only looks forward, never backwards. As the 2009 pick has already been made, it’s irrelevant to the analysis.
So the Celts could trade the 2010 pick and the 2012 pick. And if they traded just the 2010 pick, they would be able to trade the 2011 pick as soon as the 2010 draft was over (as long as they hadn’t traded the 2012 pick in the meantime.
by The_Real_Mike on Feb 2, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
i want Iggy. Tommy thinks highly of him.
For all the reasons stated here and also the feeling that Iggy only needs a clicking passing team to explode (Rondo,Garnett) I would definitely trade Ray and any other bench player for Iguodala. Lou Williams would just be gravy.
Not interested at all in the trade for Bulls players. Salmons, Hinrich, Thomas, I don’t like any of them.
keep smoking the pipe
are you really that mental to really think trading w/in the division will never happen and philly will surrender 2 first rounders..bwahahaha!! almost lost my morning donut
did you even read it?
in his proposal, we would be giving them 2 first rounders. i think you’re the one who is smoking.
As I said in your forum post...
I would do this in a heartbeat. Wouldn’t even think twice.
It is quite the long shot though.
Golden State
GS has more to offer unless Philly is willing to include Speights. Once again, I want no part of Louis Williams for that kind of money, and I don’t want Dalembert or Brand, either.
I want Monta Ellis!
If he is available, he’d be an upgrade over Ray Allen (at this age) and would be one heck of an addition.
by funkstarrdeluxe on Feb 2, 2010 11:04 AM EST reply actions
Sacramento Kings
I’ve seen a few trade rumors for Kevin Martin. Why not try a swap for him? I did a few on the trade machine that worked:
- Ray for Kevin Martin & Beno Udrih
We’d be taking less salary and providing a capable backup for Rondo
or as I fear may be the case:
- Ray for Kevin Martin & Andres Nocioni
I’d much rather the first scenario, since Udrih’s salary is lower, and we need a backup for Rondo. But we know Danny Ainge has some kind of infatuation, so he may be tempted to go for that deal and give Pierce some relief in the process.
The only problem I’d have is that both Udrih and Nocioni have 3 years left on their contracts, but I guess I can live with that… IF we really do have to trade Ray.
Dude's always hurt.
He only weighs 185 lbs. Last 2 seasons he played 51 and 61 games. Missed a ton of games this year. The last thing we need is a core player to be on the shelf for extended periods.
Aside from that and his total lack of defense, the guy is awesome. Lethally efficient scorer. But his injury history makes him too risky, imo.
Ray Allen for Joe Johnson anyone?
I have always been a Joe Johnson fan. What do you think?
Sign Me Up!!!
Alas, the Hawks might not cooperate.
Hahaha!
The we should trade KG for Amare, Rondo for CP3 and Pierce for LeBron!
What? You don’t think those teams would go for it?
by funkstarrdeluxe on Feb 2, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
A way better trade!
Dime Magazine just posted a trade scenario where the Celtics get Kevin Martin and Andres Nocioni from the Kings. I like this way better!
http://dimemag.com/2010/02/this-trade-has-to-happen-ray-allen-for-kevin-martin-andres-nocioni/
They read my mind!
See my original post a few posts up.
by ComputerSnacks on Feb 2, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
LMAO!!!
Good Joke
"Memphis then used a pick-and-roll to get Conley free and he drove past Shaquille O'Neal for the go-ahead layup."
Iggy YEP, Louis NOP
Hinrich Danny, HIIIIINRIIIIICH!!!!! (Sorry Master PO.. xD)
Look my pipe dream!!!
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yh7lqmj
:D
Need to get younger
We unloaded all our young talent to make the Ray and KG deals to win the title in 2008. I’d do the same thing all over again. But it’s clear that there’s been a marked detrioration in the Big 3 since then and other than Rondo and Perk, we just don’t have enough young talent to brdige the gap to when these guys retire.
My hope was that by now Ainge’s draft acumen would have resulted in at least ONE young impact player from the likes of Walker, Giddens, Pruitt, similar to what we he pulled off with Rondo and Big Baby.
So a deal like this makes a ton of sense in both the short and long runs, although it does introduce some short tem risk this year. How well would a guy like Iggy fit? Does he make us likelier title contenders than having Ray Allen?
trying to get my head around this
Okay, lets look at the options.
If they want to replace Ray with something else, then doing it via trade before the deadline is the thing to do. Lets take it as a given that, per DA’s words, they are NOT going to trade away a chance at a championship this year so any trade has to make them stronger for this year.
From a basketball perspective, Iggy is a beast, but plays more of a SF game than a SG. I like his athleticism and potential. The long contract is a bit of a downer. KMart probably fits the C’s offense better as a replacement for Ray – assuming he’s healthy.
How much of an upgrade for THIS year are either of those guys? I like what Iggy can bring to the C’s on defense. I like KMart as a better fit on offense. Pluses and minuses. But I’m not sure I believe that overall either is a net gain over Ray’s value to the team this year. Maybe 1 or 2 pts per game?
Longer term, Iggy (age 26) represents a 5 year commitment at $10M. KMart(age 27) represents a 3 year commit at $12.6 (I think). So KMart is less of a long term commitment -he’d come off the books with KG.
If you DON’T move Ray, then as other’s have indicated, we are almost certainly looking at sticking with the team as it stands now. Yes, we’d get the benefit of Ray’s $18.8 coming off the books. But we would STILL be over the cap and unable to sign any stud free agents other than to an MLE. So replacing Ray would be difficult at that point.
So we would almost certainly try to resign Ray using our Bird rights to him. If we could get him for a 2-yr for 7 or 8 per, that still would save over $10 off of our current salary and would actually still be cheaper than carrying either Iggy or KMart. Then he’d come off the books with KG as well. And we’d still have the MLE with which to try to add someone else.
I understand the desire to ‘get younger’, but one of the problems is that KG’s contract is not going away. Until it is, we are NOT going under the cap. So if we pickup an Iggy or a KMart, then we are actually similarly stuck with them.
They are younger – but are they going to be better than Ray over the rest of this year plus the next two years? Despite his slump over the last 3 weeks of January, Ray really hasn’t tailed off hardly at all this year over the previous two years. The only real fall off is he’s taking one less 3 pt shot per game and as a consequence scoring about 1.5 pts less per game. Most of his other numbers are very close. Can he keep that up for two more years? He’s been the most durable of the Big 3 – is it asking too much for more of that?
Once KG comes off the books, the whole team gets restructured. Do we want Iggy past that? Is it better to have KMart or Ray also come off at the same time?
Obviously, I’ve not even talked about any peripheral players that might need to be moved to make either of these two deals happen! And three-team deals can really make it really complex.
I don’t envy Danny his job right now.
My gut is that Ray doesn’t get moved, that we sign him for a relatively cheap extension and try to squeeze one or two more years out of the same team (plus the MLE) until KG comes off the books.
But who knows?
This isn’t completely out of the question. Keep in mind the Sixers were rumored in similar deals like Andre for Z, Andre for Josh Howard, and Andre + Sam for T-Mac. All three are terrible deals talent-wise, but they’re desperately trying to shed salary as they should.
Although Sam makes more money, he expires in a year and a half. Lou’s is a longer contract and I believe he’s overpaid. Don’t let the numbers fool you. He’s a terrible defender. Terrible! He is not a point guard. All he does is look for his own shot. He’s very streaky. And when people criticize his D or game in general, he’s been on the record as saying, “Basketball’s only a small part of my life.” Not exactly a guy you want to go to battle with.
And I read someone call Lou a fan favorite — maybe in years past, but the fans have turned on him for good.
Those trades all included Dalembert with Iguodala
This one takes out Dalembert and substitutes a young player making significantly less money who likely figures into the Sixers’ long-term plans. Whatever you think of Williams, he’s much more valuable that Samuel Dalembert this season.
by The_Real_Mike on Feb 2, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, jsams
Most of us probably only watch the Sixers when you play us, so good to get the perspective of a guy who presumably sees practically all their games.
Don't see it
Seems like the only way we can deal with Philly is if Pierce is opting out and resigning for a lot less next year. Even then I’m not sure how feasible it is. Wyc might still need the expiring on top of Pierce taking a pay cut. Especially when being in contention is less of a certainty. With the lux tax threshold going down, ~$82M going to 8 or 9 players right off the bat…I don’t really see this scenario playing out. I guess if Paul is taking a $10M+ hit for next year, we could do it. That doesn’t seem likely either. Although I suppose it depends on what he thinks his value is going forward. How much money is a 33 yr old wing man going to get? Probably not much more than the MLE. So for arguments sake let’s say 3 years for $19M +$21M for next year = 4yrs for $40M. Have him opt out and sign that kind of deal maybe? Maybe frontloaded so it declines in value instead of raising? Whatever Danny and Wyc do, I think they’re going to have to be pretty creative.
Keep Ray
These past four games could just as easily been 3-1 rather than 1-3. We still have 36 games left and Daniels coming back. I would not mess with chemistry now and the rumors have to be affecting Ray. It would be better to tell Ray he is staying so he can concentrate on his play. As for the lineup, Tony Allen should start and Ray should come off the bench. Ray would essentially play the role that Eddie House plays now. As I wrote the other day, House is the one who should be traded, preferably for a back-up PG. Or we package him and Shelden for a back up PF as well. Sheed can play back up center and the PF we acquire can back up KG. Allen could be more effective off the bench. At the end of the season, he would sign for less to stay a Celtic and he would thrive as a 6th man. The Celtics have a rich tradition of 6th men and he would simply add to that tradition. If we make these fixes, then we will contend for Banner 18.
I agree with what Po said
These fantasy trade dealers = ROFL
I’ve liked Lou Williams ever since he came into the league, and paired with Iguodala, one of my favorite young players, this deal is a no-brainer!
What about Bosh???
That one would obviously be a Godfather trade, but I’ve read a lot of sources saying that Toronto may deal him at the deadline because he has made it clear he won’t sign there. If they did some “back channel” talking and got him to agree to an extension after this year, that would be a huge addition and he would be able to contend for a championship right away. Just a thought….
Im intrested
In anything Involving Iggy and williams for Ray and picks. and im kinda intrested in the Ray and Daniels for Hinrich, Thomas and Salmons. Thomas would provide that much needed rebounding weve been missing. Hinrich and Salmons would always be there for options at the three, but for the most part if any deals like this cant get through, keep Ray. He’ll re-sign for less and he comes in handy.
"Victory belongs to the most Preserving" - Napoleon
"The teams that do the best job of putting personal agendas aside are the successful teams. It's not easy. That's why it's hard being a good teammate, but everyone has that choice." - Ray Allen
by AiTheLAviTiCuS#21 on Feb 2, 2010 7:39 PM EST reply actions
Just Say Yes
The window is open,
this may be able to extend the window,
if we can ever get KG & Pierce healthy again at the same time…….
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